Do you have sympathy for people who enlisted after Nov. 2000?

[wuushew]

Discounting the economic slavery aspect for joining the military, Bush has delievered on his promised military adventurism in every way.

Wasn't the writing on the wall before the election? Iraq is nightmear so why join up voluntarily?

[ComerPerro]

1. Yes

If they enlisted as reserve or for a college education especially.

[wuushew]

2. I consider that an economic slavery issue

So they have my sympathy as well

[jiacinto]

3. Yes

They aren't the ones giving the orders. They are the ones who have to follow them. So I do support the troops and anyone who doesn't should be ashamed of her/himself.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

5. Just what do you mean, Carlos

How is it that you support the troops?

Do you cheer them on when they kill people?

What do you mean, Carlos? Why haven't you enlisted or gone to OCS?

I don't support the murder machine and I'm not fucking ashamed of that. Got it?

[Name removed]

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[Generic Other]

9. Men who avoid military service in time of war are called slackers

by the GIs. At least they were during WW2.

[jiacinto]

13. Well

If there was a draft, and my number came up, although I would have been terrified, I would have served my country and fulfilled my patriotic duty.

[Generic Other]

21. But only if forced by a draft?

Wear that yellow stripe with pride, dear boy, but if you squawk like a chickenhawk, people will wonder why you aren't supporting the troops on the banks of the Tigris and Euphrates.

[jiacinto]

27. Should I not support the troops then?

Sorry I do support them. That doesn't mean I support Bush or his policies, but I will not take it out on the troops.

[Generic Other]

42. Every man in my family was in the military

Know what they would think of your support? They'd spit on your shoes.

All of them ended their service opposed to war.

[ComerPerro]

32. I dont understand your point here

When has Carlos been "squawking like a Chickenhawk"?

[Generic Other]

64. Every chance he gets he attacks anyone who argues for peace

with that lame you aren't supporting the troops argument.

And now, we are asked whether anyone with an ounce of intelligence would voluntarily join the military under Bush, and we are bashed as anti-military for wondering about their sanity.

I actually worked my way through college. Got student loans. Repaid them. I didn't have to kill people for unethical reasons at the hands of a tyrannical government for a few "free" dollars. I couldn't afford to pay that high a price. So, no I don't have a lot of sympathy for those who made the decision to sign up under Bush.

I do feel some concern for their current situation. But no sympathy.

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[Booberdawg]

33. I agree with you Carlos

Our service men and women serve an honorable purpose for our country. I support our troops as well. They are not the cause of this war. There is NO REASON to hate them.

[jiacinto]

54. Of course not

And it is a shame that other people do.

[TheYellowDog]

7. Unless you've served

you sound incredibly vain bashing our military like that. The murder machine? If there had been a draft for Gulf war II you probably would have dodged it.

[redeye]

10. I would have...

...I'd rather go to jail than participate in a war-making machine, regradless of which country it serves.

[TheYellowDog]

11. Good

then I would support a life sentence for you

[TheYellowDog]

12. without parole and

23 hour lockdown.

[wuushew]

14. So you disagree with President Ford's draft dodging amnesty?

?




SEPTEMBER 16, 1974
President Gerald Ford Signs Amnesty for Draft Evaders

[TheYellowDog]

22. absolutely

n/t.

[redeye]

28. Why?

Just becuase I will not impale myself or roast my 11-year-old sister alive even if commanded to?

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[TheYellowDog]

35. hahahaha

DisgustipatedinCA (1000+ posts) Sat Sep-06-03 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #3

5. Just what do you mean, Carlos


How is it that you support the troops?

Do you cheer them on when they kill people?

What do you mean, Carlos? Why haven't you enlisted or gone to OCS?

I don't support the murder machine and I'm not fucking ashamed of that. Got it?

So, you say that you served in Gulf War I, Disgustipated. Wouldn't that make you a murderer too, or at least serving in the company of murderers? I don't believe you, you didn't serve.

[redeye]

39. Uh...

There was no draft in 1991. If Disgustipated indeed served, then either he is now a hypocrite or he changed his mind completely in 12 years.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

51. I have indeed changed my mind

Yes, I've changed my mind completely in 12 years. Really in about 9 years. I had no problem with the first Bush. I never applied critical thinking.

And I don't give a good goddamn if you or Yellow believe me or not.

[redeye]

57. I believe you

I supported nuking Afghanistan on 9/12/2001. I didn't listen to Ann Coulter, nor would I agree with what she said because I'd always been an atheist, but I supported throwing nukes around. And then, ironically, I opposed the Patriot Act because it would "hurt innocent people." Since then, obviously, I've learned to apply the term "innocent" to everyone, not only people in the West. I could do that kind of a 180 in about a year; therefore, I see no reason to believe you didn't do that in 9 years.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

65. Hey, I'm sorry I cursed at you

I have to admit that I'm shaking-angry right now about some of the stuff in this thread.

Anyway, my anger doesn't lie with you, so I'm sorry I let it slip out of bounds with the cursing in the post you replied to.

[TheYellowDog]

8. Also, why do you hate America?

:shrug:

[Lars39]

15. Why are you spouting neo-con talking points?

[redeye]

24. I can't answer for him

I can answer for myself, though. I hate the United States because it polices the world in cases where it shouldn't (e.g. Iraq) and stays out of things it should intervene in (e.g. Israel/Palestine). I hate the United States because I know first-hand that Americans are mostly idiots who can't find nations that're hot on the news on a map and don't know which half-century the civil war was in. I hate the United States because its government exists under an outdated constitution that should have been seriously restructured as early as the 1820s and compeltely rewritten beginning at the end of the civil war. I hate the United States because of the national security state that reads my emails, has the power to blackmail me if it finds anything in my profile, Internet surfing, etc., which I'd rather keep hidden, and prohibits me from posting some powerful ideas for encryption I have on message boards. I hate the United States because of its racism, its nationalism (which American supports outsourcing because the third world deserves a greater share of the world's wealth, or because any reason other than free market idealism or $$$ for corporation?), and its hatred of immigrants.

Does that answer your question adequately?

[ComerPerro]

23. I'm not sure of his meaning, but

For me, I support the troops in the sense that I want them to have everything that they might possibly need. The administration has underfunded them, and is not providing them with even adequate supplies. In addition, they will come back to find that they have been shafted out of the promised pay increases and possibly out of any pension they might have recieved.

Now, you may say that they have a choice in the matter, and could just refuse to follow the orders.

But its not that easy. They have been brainwashed at bootcamp and programmed to think in a military sense, i.e. chain of command...

I feel bad for them because some of them were misled, and think that they are there in response to 9/11. Others had to do this because they were told they could get an education.

I don't think that "supporting the troops" means you should have to enlist. And I don't think that "supporting the troops" means supporting the war. To me they are completely different issues.

Some of the soldiers that are there right now have my sympathy because they were not looking for a war.

But others, who are over there because they believe in the war and the cause (even though I don't) have my respect because they followed through with their convictions, even to a potential life-or death matter.

The only ones I would have no sympathy for are FReepers between 18 and 24 who support the war but don't have the balls to enlist. If there is a draft, I think they should be called up first.

Sorry to rant. I know some of this may seem contradictory. But this is a complex issue.

[HEyHEY]

4. I don't have sympathy for anyone who volunteers for the army

This isn't an anti-army post. They do what they do and that's their choice, they at least are doing something they believe in. BUt sympathy..no. When you enlist, you know what you are getting yourself into, it's what you signed up for.

[sweetheart]

17. no sympathy

Clearly they want to die for something stupid.

[redeye]

36. Ditto

Joining the military is the eptiome of patriotism. The enlisted man (or woman, or officer), the good patriot, will impale himself if commanded to, rip his guts if ordered to, roast his children if required to and will enjoy doing that, because to him the country is more important than anything else.

[sujan]

18. sympathy for mercenaries?

no...

[redeye]

59. What's with the word "mercenary"?

I mean, if I wanted to make people look bad I'd call drafted soldiers "slave military labor." It'd be nice if you used more neutral terms.

[HEyHEY]

62. yeah

Yeah, I'd say there is a difference between the two terms. Cause it isn't mercinaries who peacekeep in the Balkans, and it wasn't mercinaries who fought the Nazi's. Just because the leader of the pack is an ass doesn't mean the rest are.

[Cocoa]

25. Bush campaigned on "no nation building"

he didn't promise military adventurism, as you say.

[wuushew]

67. Oh it was there, buried in the backpages

Back in 1999, just as today, there was no evidence that Iraq concealed any such weapons. Bush was governor of Texas at the time and the presidential race was still one year away. Bush couldn't have possibly had any intelligence information, which he claims he presently has but refuses to make public, that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction. Still, Bush knew exactly what he would do first when he got to office: bomb Iraq.

"Gov. George W. Bush of Texas talks about contingencies in which he would use American military power to ''take out'' Iraq's illegal weapons" if elected president, according to a Dec. 12, 1999 editorial in the New York Times. The Times editorial was headlined Rhetoric and Reality on Iraq and it too presumed that Iraq still had weapons of mass destruction but the editorial offered no evidence.

http://www.counterpunch.org/leopold01172003.html

[mitchum]

34. Yes, because I have sympathy for the proletariat...

I don't see how I could consider myself a leftist if I did not do so

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[redeye]

61. Can you explain that to me?

Disgustipated doesn't know who or where you are; he can't do anything to you. Concentrate on making your point more logically and less nationalistically.

[blm]

45. Yes...they were lied to by the media.

And there are few jobs out there for them.

This is no coincidence. This is how robber barons and the plutocrats have operated for centuries.

[JohnKleeb]

52. yes

All are victims of this war, I think the Iraqi civilians are the biggest ones though.

[Kahuna]

58. Yes. One of them was my baby nephew. Luckily for him..

He hasn't been sent to the middle east. He also plans to leave when his term is up.

[jiacinto]

60. I am sorry for those who have insulted your nephew here

nt

[ComerPerro]

68. I hope he gets out

This is the reason I "support the troops" without supporting the war. Its the human aspect. Its just sick to dismiss American soldiers as ruthless killers who are undeserving of sympathy.

[JVS]

63. This topic seems too sensitive to discuss

[HEyHEY]

66. YES

Back to cookin' with booze!

[ComerPerro]

69. haha

Interesting comment...

[lazarus]

70. It appears so

And some people won't leave well enough, or bad enough, alone. So another potentially good thread is locked because of the actions of a few.