Wal*Mart, a typical corporation, not an EVIL one...

[Solon]

I say this for one reason, and one reason only, Wal*Mart, and its competitors and most other corporations, are not evil, because they are not human. That is it, all corporations are organized, by law and circumstance, to think of one thing, the bottom line.

This is not to say I agree with it or anything of that sort, but to talk about and indict Wal*Mart for its actions on trade and labor relations is to indict the SYSTEM of corporate irresponsibility that is pervasive in the world today. The problems are not confined to one company even the largest one in the world, but to the entire system that was set up about 130 or so years ago that lead to the abuses around the world that we see today. This idea of corporate person hood was born in a courtroom in the United States(or at least a clerk there), and is now being exported around the world.

This is having devastating consequences, with the complicity of, and then the subjugation of governments that will lead to worsening conditions around the world. Unfortunately, these corporations have become so big and so powerful that they are more powerful than the states they originated from. They answer to no flag but their own, and they only answer to the top .5% of the world's population that owns them.

To take Wal*Mart as an example, since it is the biggest employer in the United States, and is also the largest corporation in the world. They think about maximum profit with minimized costs, this means they outsource as much cost as they can, hence the classes on how to collect food stamps. When the deal with China was struck, it was a godsend for Wal*Mart, for now they have the largest base of poor people in which to produce there products for those who are slightly more affluent, and can therefore afford it.

You may say, "but its cheap, I can afford it!" or something along those lines. Well let me tell you, that is not true, its a myth propagated by sly marketers. Companies like Wal*Mart have little to no interest in selling you a better and cheaper product than their competitors, instead they simply want to keep there profit margins up. Whereas a typical competitor has a markup(difference between wholesale and retail price) of around 20%, Wal*Mart's is typically around 80% or more. This leads to prices that are less than a cent difference between them and their competitors, and typically, almost no price difference at all with the exception of a few select items in the store which they may sell at a loss to lure you in.

Most buys are impulse buys, all retailers know that, and Wal*Mart is the master at that craft of deception, they are not unique in doing it. They lure you in on one good deal, and you end up leaving the store with a cartful of items you neither needed nor wanted that you did not save a dime on compared to the competitor's price. This is part of the reason for Wal*mart's success, they made more money, in one year, than 5 of the largest companies in the world combined, think about that. It is the perception of "Always low prices, Always" that keeps people coming back, not the reality of their prices.

The last two paragraphs are to make a point, that just because you make a short term gain by inadvertently supporting a company at like Wal*Mart, that you actually do more harm to yourself down the road. This is more than job losses or the lack of unions, or sweatshops anymore. Thanks to the information age, it is increasingly difficult for these corporations to keep from the public what they do to us. This is going to lead to some bad times ahead, there is no doubt about that. The forces of corporate dominance and there lackeys, our elected governments, are making reforms that harm us and enrich themselves.

During the last century, governments such as the United States were a stabilizing force for commerce, and therefore their peculiar form of government, namely democracy was tolerated. This is particularly true during the cold war, where corporations feared communists taking markets away more than reform minded politicians at home. The problem is that thanks to the deregulations and free trade agreements of the past 30 or so years, these companies have now transcended the need for governments that they only tolerated a little, now they control them outright, or subjugate them from within.

What will happen if we as Democrats actually take back at least two of the branches of government with reform minded individuals who want to rein in corporate power? This is the question, corporations tolerate democracies, but prefer fascist regimes for their stability and friendliness to business interests. And for years, their interest coincided with our own, hence the CIA being the "Company" it is today. But when they diverge, corporations may take it on themselves to correct the problem, and remove the democratic restraints on their power, forever. They tried before, what is to stop them now?

Who do we have to fear the most? Bush, or the power brokers behind him? That is the question, because no matter who we elect, those brokers will still put on the pressure, and will, eventually, even break a Democratic president, if s/he is not already pliable to their interests to begin with. Bush has empowered many diverse corporations, especially in Iraq, in ways that are unprecedented in the entire history of the Industrial Revolution. We talk about concentrations camps for liberals, socialists, and other activists that are bad for business, but the question is, what will be the flag over these camps, the Stars and Stripes, or the Logo for GM? This is not as far fetched as it seems, for who do you think were the ones behind Abu Ghraib scandal, that the media forgot to mention? Oh that's right CACI International and The Titan Corporation. They supplied an interrogator and two translators at the prison, and are under investigation for the torture scandal.

This is not to mention the mercenaries that are already on the ground in Iraq, who only answer to there bosses in the United States, South Africa, Great Britain, and no these aren't the governments there, but there bosses at companies like Dynacorp and many others along those lines. Nothing to be concerned about, right?

I would like to talk about solutions to the systematic problems that corporations present, and they are present, but the problem is almost insurmountable. I mean really, when was the last time the government threatened GE with having their charter revoked? That seems to be the only peaceable solution at the present, for the government(not the one we have now) to actually have some teeth in the enforcement of its own laws, and use its constitutional powers to give the "death penalty" to those corporations that are in defiance of the law.

[Wapsie B]

1. Great post!

I would love to see sunset provisions in corporate charters, along with the revokation of those charters in cases of wrongdoing.
What also upsets me is the fact that I do not have a right to free speech or privacy at my job. But my employer somehow has a voice in government? That's not right at all. Corporate personhood needs to be abolished.

[Solon]

2. I knew I forgot sunset provisions...

they were common before the civil war. Now, we basically have these "citizens" who have all our rights, none of our responsibilities, they are immortal and cannot be caged. I say that their mortality should be up, soon, many have "lived" for well over one hundred years!

[Solon]

3. Kick n/t

[Deja Q]

4. VERY TRUE. Even STEVE JOBS of Apple said that he'd be just like

Bill Gates if the opportunity arose, though that was a few years ago... still, if Reggie White (topical reference, take no notice) can flip flop, anybody can.

Indeed, look at who Apple exploited over the years: The stable of the stable fields: Schools. And exploiting children at school, who'll then turn to the parent(s) asking for an Apple too. Microsoft merely had the intelligence to mooch off of IBM. The company IBM originally wanted for DOS disliked the idea of leeching. But Gates knew better (in terms of how to exploit and be a total bastard).

And, apparently, being the first SECOND to develop a GUI (Xerox did by 1972 and Apple "borrowed" the technology and some of Xerox's employees too), Apple got people to think that it is the only platform for graphics/video work. More fresh plop from that cow.

A benevolent corporation is a contradiction in terms.

[bleedingheart]

5. I learned the lesson of "impulse buys" at Sam's Club over 7 years ago

my company gave us a membership...so I would go with my sister.

Well I would buy boxes of diapers and loads of toilet paper...and before I knew it...I was sometimes $400 poorer...with a lot of inventory that was really unnecessary...I would use it...but hell who needs three cans of starch??? I wasn't running a laundry.

As for food...well the jumbo bag of meatballs seems like a great idea but you get sick of them...just as I got really sick of a tray of nothing but strawberry yogurt...

Now I only shop at my union grocery store with coupons. I don't buy a lot but I buy what I need...

In essence I applied the JIT manufacturing principle to myself..."just-in-time"...why hoard crap that may go bad or take up all that space????

[JanMichael]

6. Well stated. As to solutions? There aren't any within the American system.

Correction, the World System.

Back to American "solutions". There aren't any IMO, at least not any with any real teeth. We can talk about sunset provisions, charters, union representation, etcetera, but ultimately they (Big Multi-Nationals) buy the people that write the laws that govern themselves.

And it doesn't really matter whether Dems have the WH and Congress. They did when Clinton took office and crashed on Healthcare (Fighting HMOs, Big Pharma) plus they folded, no pushed (At least Bill did) NAFTA.

The playing field is not even tilted, it's owned by Big Multi-National Corporations and the richest top 1% of every nation that own those Corporations.

EDIT: I forgot to add ERSI. A Privately held GIS Monster Corporation that spun off of Harvard Labs, "partnered" with the Census Bureau and god knows what other agencies of government and products of education. Unstable platform releases and never ending license fees from almost every governmental agency, top to bottom, in the US.

[Solon]

7. I know, I know...

The thing that kills me is that we are relying on corporations, we think they are indespensible, at least a large amount of the public thinks so. So politicians have two front in which to fight this type of battle, one is corporate money and influence, and the second is the public at large who bought into the marketing that the corporations are just like them, and are indespensable to their way of life. The problem is that the way the system is set up now, it is not only dispensable, it is unsustainable, and as such will collapse in the near future. When a system takes out more than it gives back, it eventually becomes top heavy, and will fall, that's a guarantee.

[JanMichael]

8. I agree that it's more of a "When" than an "If".

But what's even more difficult to decifer is the "Then" and the "Next".

We'll see. I can imagine in my lifetime, I'm 36, that "Interesting Times" will be had by all.

[Solon]

9. I see it as a combination of factors...

One is that our economic and therefore corporate growth is predicated on cheap, abundant energy. That period is ending, quite soon I would say, probably within the next year or so. For example, NG has already peaked on this continent, and cannot be imported from others, in my area alone, NG prices has tripled, I would say that by next summer that it will power outages may take place due to the fact that NG is now used for peak time power generation. Corporations cannot deal with this in a marketplace, because they are always thinking of profitability, not about what happens in 10 years, but in a single fiscal quarter. As of right now, we are not only ill equiped to deal with the situation, but it may be too late to do much about it.

The second is that these corporations are so powerful that they have little interest in alleviating the problem until it turns profitable. By that point it will be too late to really affect change in this situation. This is usually the time when governments step up and take charge of the situation to alleviate the suffering of the people, unfortunately we don't have Roosevelt in office, otherwise it may happen. Public projects, similar to the Manhattan project, will have to occur just to releave us of the coming economic depression. We are in the "roaring" '20s all over again, I'm just wondering when it will end.

[JanMichael]

11. I've been wondering about energy costs.

Will the crunch come in the depths of winter with people unable to buy heating oil or will it hit this next summer in the SE and SW when all of the AC's get flipped on "cool"?

[Solon]

13. Totally depends on how severe the weather is...

If we luck out and this winter will end early and become mild, plus the summer is the same, then nationwide, we may last till next winter. But if we have heat waves like let's say Europe, then expect many people to die of heat stroke, or freeze to death in the winter.

[wuushew]

10. Actually Walmart IS evil because it practices its own brand of morality

for many years Walmart had a policy banning the dating and co-habitatiabion of employees outside of a work enviromnent. This and other policies are not a morally neutral situation arising from the pursuit of profit but rather a result of Sam Walton's starched bible thumping version of morality. In a 1998 court case an employee was fired for the banned practice of inter-racial dating.

A very good Dateline or 20/20 produced many years ago dealt with these abuses and others. I am still searching for the transcript.

[Solon]

12. That's anthropomorphizing a company that doesn't have feelings...

That was my point actually, or one of them I think, Wal*Mart itself is no more evil than the big box buildings it resides in, rather the people who run the company can be either good or evil, I would say more on the evil side myself.

[G_j]

14. this is very silly

Walmart is a corp started by people, run by people, the decisions are made by people, the profits are made by people, the bribes are made by people, the sweat shop items are ordered by people, the salaries are set by people, the union busting is done by people....etc.

SO Walmart is the sum of people, first and foremost the CEOs. You are trying to tell us it is no different than an empty building?
I disagree, WM is an ENTITY. If somebody doesn't believe there is such a thing as "evil" then try other words: unscrupulous, amoral, greedy, criminal etc. From my point of view WM is a living, breathing entity.

[Solon]

15. Amoral would be the proper word, just like every other entity out there...

But we are arguing semantics, and besides its the system that Wal*Mart is a part of that is the problem, it is not limited to one company, but it is an easy target for our ire.

[G_j]

16. I agree it is not limited to WM

by any means, but I think they do deserve our ire for being the trend setter.
Besides if you are going to be the world's largest corp, then you should be held especially accountable. just MHO... :-)

[JanMichael]

17. Kick.

You may have asked a question that most people don't wish to address.

[Solon]

18. Yep, giving it another kick...

for my own ego! :)

[JanMichael]

25. One more.

:kick:

[durutti]

19. Great post! n/t

[left15]

20. Wal-mart will implode

It's already starting.

They are so large, they need vendors who can supply very large quantities.

At the same time, they are squeezing their vendors for even lower prices.

It's a race to the bottom.

Because of this it is becoming a sea of low priced crap.

In the future there will be smaller stores with a good selection of quality goods, and Walmart selling massive amounts of low priced junk.

[Tesla]

21. Wal Mart Wine

Wal Mart Wine
Subject: Wal Mart Wine
>
> Wal-Mart customers soon will be able to sample a new discount item:
> Wal-Mart's own brand of wine (except in New Jersey). The world's
> largest retail chain is
> teaming up with E&J Gallo Winery of Modesto, California, to produce
> the
> spirits at an affordable price, in the $2 - 5 range.
>
> While wine connoisseurs may not be inclined to throw a bottle of
> Wal-Mart brand wine into their shopping carts, there is a market for
> cheap wine, said Kathy Micken, professor of marketing at Roger Williams
> University in Bristol, R.I. She said: "The right name is important."
>
> So, here we go: The top 12 suggested names for Wal-Mart Wine:
>
> 12. Chateau Traileur Parc
>
> 11. White Trashvindel
>
> 10. Big Red Gulp
>
> 9. Grape Expectations
>
> 8. Domaine Wal-Mart "Merde du Pays"
>
> 7. NASCARbernet
>
> 6. ! Chef Boyardeaux
>
> 5. Peanut Noir
>
> 4. Chateau Des Moines
>
> 3. I Can't Believe It's Not Vinegar!
>
> 2. World Championship Riesling
>
> And the number 1 name for Wal-Mart Wine...
>
> 1. Nasti Spumante
>
> The beauty of Wal-Mart wine is that it can be served with white meat
> (possum) and red meat (squirrel).
_______________________________

[Silverhair]

23. It is already that way.

You won't find a $1,000+ dining room set in WM. Everything they have is geared toward the lower end market. However, that is NOT a bad thing.

Many people can't afford the expensive stuff. And sometimes you don't need the high quality. Often, adequate is adequate.

I needed a treadmill, and found a new one at WM for $250. Powered, grade adjustable, and with an electronic readout to tell me calories burned, miles walked, etc. Sporting outlets wanted $500 for the most basic models. I could not have afforded $500, but was able to afford $250. So I benefited.

I saved over $100 on an LCD monitor. Reoutfiting my house with the new GE fluorescent bulbs I saved about 40% per bulb from the same thing at ACE. None of those were advertised specials. They the regular price.

So WM already fills the niche for low priced stuff, and lots of it. If you want to pay more, that are stores that will oblige you. Sometimes it will be higher quality, and sometimes not.

Low price is NOT an evil thing.

[Doremus]

29. Low price IS an evil thing ...

...IF it is achieved on the backs of the repressed.

The cheap junk peddled at WM is manufactured in sweat shops by people with few choices and even fewer opportunities.

And one other clarification:

All chain stores are not alike. WM's competitors, especially in the grocery industry, often provide their employees were livable wages, benefits and union protections.

If you prefer instead to support the 800-lb. gorilla that is the epitome of what's wrong with America because you can save a few pennies, go right ahead.

But stop rationalizing it by saying it's not hurting anyone because it isn't true.

[Silverhair]

33. So now you are trying to use guilt to manipulate me.

Doesn't work. And it is far more than a few pennies that I save. Annually it is in the thousands of dollars. That is enough to have an impact on me.

Those people in the sweat shops overseas. If you quit buying, will better opportunities magically open up for them? No it won't. That's the real world. For them, that "sweatshop" IS an opportunity. You would take away what tiny little bit of opportunity they do have, and replace it with nothing and then pat yourself on the back for moral superiority.

[Solon]

38. That's a lie if I ever heard one...

The sweat shops aren't an opportunity, far from it, in many of these countries, the people were making it, they weren't rich, but making it OK. Then their government ends up oweing money to the IMF, so the IMF says they will relieve some of the money, if, lets say, they open up a couple of factories for the workers there. The problem is that the government, having little choice except defaulting on the loan, may not have a large amount of workers, because maybe most of the people are into agriculture, they aren't rich, but they aren't starving to death either. So they make farming the land illegal, tell somebody, like Nike, Wal*Mart, or GM to open up factories there. Soon, whole towns turn from an agriculture based economy to an industrial economy. With all the pluses and minuses of our old industrial towns, including company stores, houseing, and living.

This seems great except for one thing, before the companies moved in, these people were able to eat 3 meals a day that they grew on their own. Now, the food is imported and more expensive, so that even though they are being payed a king's ransom compared to what they were making back before the factories, they can afford maybe one meal a day, or none at all. Not to mention the pollution that leads to health problems they can't afford, or birth defects, things like that. Not to mention that nearly everything this country in question produces is exported, therefore the people who make this stuff has zero to no benefit from it. I'm not saying it was paradise before, only a fool would say that, but there HAS to be a better way, and if you have to be inconvienced with paying a thousand extra dollars a year, so be it.

One thing I want to make clear, however, all these Big Box retailers are not, I repeat, not, created equal. Wal*Mart violates the law, regularly, so that you can save you thousand or more dollars a year, would you be willing to pay more so they would follow the law? Or is it just the bottom line for you that matters. The reason I clash with you so venomintly about this is because I have been a direct victim of how Wal*Mart works. I have worked overtime without ANY pay, so you can save money, I have been locked into a store, where even the fire doors are chained, so you can save money. I'm sick and tired of people like you saying that we deserve this, because that is exactly what you mean. As long as you save a buck, we mean less than shit to you. Join the Republicans, you don't belong here.

[Silverhair]

41. So now you define who is and is not a member of DU?

You define who is and is not a Democrat????? If I don't toe your line exactly on all points, you tell me to join the Republicans??? There can be no dissention within us on some items. Hatred of WM is mandatory to be a Democrat???

How big a party will be build if we require the kind of lockstep mentality that you seem to want?

1. I agree that WM should follow the law, and officials that violate it should be jailed. Locking the fire doors should produce some serious jail time. That happened once in the northeast in a garment factory and a lot of sewing ladies died in a fire.

2. You do have the option of finding other employment - assuming that you have better job skills.

[Solon]

43. If all the officials that do it are locked up...

then Wal*Mart would be out of business, also, in many cases, people DON'T have the option of other employment, and thanks to Bush, can't afford college either. Its hard to save money, or develop skills when your entire paycheck goes to bills and rent, and maybe, just maybe, food, if you aren't on public assistance. As far as my other comment, your callous disregard for REAL world conditions, and the use of talking points more along the lines of Republicans or Libertarians is what I object to. Let me ask you another question, would you oppose Wal*Mart being unionized, even if it meant that you would have to pay more?

[Silverhair]

48. That would be their free choice.

We do live in a capitalist system, and I look out after myself because no one else will. I would make whatever adaptions I needed to make, as would the rest of the market. But as you noted, the system would soon produce another non-union big box store, and WM would be price squeezed by it's non-union competitor.

I understand the Germans have a different kind of union that works better. Those with more knowledge, please feel free to correct me on this. As I understand it, instead of our style of unions, each corporation has voting members on the board who are elected by the employees so they have the interests of the workers and the health of the company both in mind. I have heard that works pretty well.

As for pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, if you are determined enough, it can always be done. Never blame a politician for somebodies personal lack of ambition or ability. College isn't the only path to a better life.

[Solon]

49. We do NOT live in a capitalistic system...

we live in a crony captalistic system, there are places in this country now where there are NO opportunities to advance in life. We have bought into this myth of an "American Dream" that is lived by the few at the suffering of the many. You bought into this "rugged individualism" that is also a myth. No society works in that manner, every company and every individual, yes even yourself, are supported in some manner by the government. The only question is whether this system of government benefits the few, or the many. Before you even mention moving out of less prosperous areas and move to more prosperous ones, let me tell you, many, including myself, cannot afford to move. BTW: What you are talking about are co-opts, there are a few around here as well, farmer markets and some employee owned factories as well.

We live within a system where the stong and rich prey on the weak, and the weak have few tools in which to fight back. The system needs to change, because if it doesn't, our entire system will break down. When that happens, expect a lot of violence, I mean, what do you want, to force a revolution onto the people, or to work from within the system to change it?

[Silverhair]

53. It is not a myth. I have lived it. I know many others that have too.

I was born into and raised in severe poverty. I am not rich, but I am not poor either. Like many people who have hard poverty as a background, I am tight with my money. And if I can raise myself up by my bootstraps, I know that others can too. I know people who were poor only a few years ago that are gaining ground, but that have had to do a lot of work.

That is a very liberating message. "You have the power to change your life."

I was told this motto many years ago: "Successful people do those things that failures refuse to do."

[Solon]

54. Let me see, previously you said you joined the Army...

GI Bill, did you use that? How about that artificially cheap gas in your car paid for by tax dollars? Roads, Fire, and Police make it safe for you and others to "Pull themselves up by their bootstraps". Hell what about your ancestors in the area and the "Homestead Act". How about every time you go on a flight, remember it is subsidized so you can afford or save on the ticket, by, that's right, tax dollars. But never mind all that, you did it all yourself, didn't you, what are you, living on a deserted island?

[Silverhair]

56. I earned every penny of the GI Bill in Vietnam.

I never said that I did not use gov't services. I did say that I didn't sit around and complain as my father did. I looked for and found the opportunities that were available. I could have done a better job as there were many that I missed. There are always opportunities available. Look for them. I know people now that are pulling themselves up. To sit back and blame the gov't is to accept defeat. Nor is college the only path to a better life. There are many paths.

[Solon]

58. You seem to take a lot of things on faith...

Such as saying "There are always opportunities available." Opportunities do not occur in a vacuum, when businesses leave town, or leave the country, that is opportunity lost. When the government cuts the GI Bill that is also opportunity lost. When the highest paying job in town is $7.00 an hour, below the standard of living, that is opportunity restricted. When the playing field is not level at the start, and you climb, and are knocked down again and again by those who don't have to play by the rules, that is wrong. You claim to have pulled yourself up by your own bootstraps when you deny that the government gave you a helping hand, your in denial.

[Silverhair]

62. I never denied getting help early on. It made it easier.

But I would have found some way to make it. I was not going to repeat what my father did - doing nothing. He accepted defeat. I never have and never will. There is always a way.

I do not consider the police, fire, roads etc as being gov't help. Those are basic services.

[Trekologer]

45. Its not always a bargain

Typically, Wal-Mart sells lower-quality version of the products other stores sell, even when the pacakge looks identical. Same on the outside, lower quality on the inside.

[Silverhair]

55. I have not encountered that problem.

In fact, I have seen just the opposite. When I was a truck driver I picked up expensive cat litter, and the Wal-Mart brand from the same plant. I asked the loader is there was any difference and he told me that it came from the same hopper. Only difference was the bag. I had similiar incidents with other products. Once I picked up three different brands of peas from the same place. Same story. Other drivers told me of similiar runs. Tanker drivers told me of delivering the same gas to a brand name place and then going to a discount gas station.

I have not encounted quality problems with the items that I have bought there.

You are not going to able to convince me against my own experience. The prices ARE cheaper, and the quality has been just a good. Mostly I buy groceries there, and a can of Campbells is a can of Campbells.

[arikara]

63. Walmart's low price is an evil thing

Walmart is in very large part the reason for the race to the bottom of worker's wages. If you were making a decent living wage you would be more willing to pay a fair price for a commodity so that the person who made and sold it to you could also make a fair living wage.

Its a tough one. Personally, I buy locally from the small stores as much as possible and shop garage sales for larger items (something always turns up at a garage sale...) but never, never from the evil empire. I'll do without first.

[flygal]

28. I agree

I heard a company president talking so negatively about WM b/c the quality of their stores is very low end. We had a walmart near us that was so filthy after I had kids I would not go in there. The carts were so nasty. I now only shop at Target and grocery stores.

[Silverhair]

22. Finally, we can agree on Wal-Mart.

In the other thread you and I clashed strongly. But here you state in one of your responses you that it is the system that Wal-Mart is part of that produces the problem. Not WM itself, but the system that produces it.

If WM didn't exist, another corporation exactly like it would, except the name would be different. It is much like evolution. If there is a niche, a life form will evolve to fill it. Same in economics - if there is an economic opportunity, something will fill it.

In my area, there are very few Mom & Pop stores, so I pretty much have to buy from a giant corp. Since I view them as all the same, I buy from the one that gives me the best price. If that happens to be WM, then so be it. I am looking out for myself because in this system, no one else will.

[G_j]

26. but still

hasn't WM in many ways had a major role in creating this business paradigm? I guess what you are saying is that if they hadn't somebody else would have.
(trying to think of analogies) If one of us was in court for stealing, this defense wouldn't work and we would still be held accountable. "If I hadn't taken it, sombody else would have."

[Silverhair]

35. It would work extremely well if the act is legal.

If WM violates the law, then there should be jail time for the official who ordered it, not just a cooperate fine.

Aside from that, yes, the system would create a WM if it didn't exist. What do you think K-Mart was trying to be?

No, that business paradigm has been around for a long time before WM. Remember, there was a time when WM was just one store, and the giants were Sears, J C Penny, etc.

[Blue Wally]

47. Not the 'big box" concept.

SS Kressge, the five-and-dime chain, began the big box movement with their K-Marts. There were lots and lots of similar stores (Woolco, Grant, Nicholls, Fields, Masons, Caldor, Ames, Zayre), most of which went out of business. K-mart, Target, and Wal-mart are about the only survivors. The one difference to the business model was Wal-mart. All of the others started in the suburbs and tried to move out to the smaller towns. Wal-Mart started in the smaller towns and worked in to the suburbs. If Wal-Mart had never been created, we would still have big-box discount stores.

[Silverhair]

51. Kind of like the automobile makers.

Started out with lots of different companies, and finally there were the big three that survived.

You are right. The system was going to create a Wal-Mart. It works the same way evolution does.

[flygal]

27. That's how my mom describes it

I tried to get her to shop elsewhere but she said she checks the fliers and if Smiths has cheaper meat she'll go there. But if WM has somethings cheaper she'll go there. And since she makes $14K a year I guess she needs to look out for herself.

[Silverhair]

34. EXACTLY !!!!!! NT

[JanMichael]

66. Sadly though by going to WM she's strengthening wage depression.

Which is why she might go there in the first place. It's a viscious cycle.

[Solon]

30. I think the biggest difference between us...

Is that I choose to not participate in a system that causes so much injury to other people, because I empathize with them. Its not just limited to Wal*Mart either, they are the largest target, and the most egregious violator of the law. I prefer to have the system change to benefit the most amount of people possible, such as making sure that all the stores of Wal*Mart are unionized, enforce labor laws so that when they try to lock in employees(Happened to me), or not pay them overtime(This too, they still owe me money.) that they actually have to PAY for it, and not just write a cheque that hardly penalizes them at all.

[Silverhair]

36. Where I live my choices are mostly big chains.

I do buy my meds at one of the few Mom & Pop pharmacies left. The service is great and the meds are just as cheap because of the way our insurance works.

But for almost everything else my choice is Big Chain or Big Chain or nothing. So given that situation, I go for what gives me the best price.

[JanMichael]

67. Shopping smart is something that most people don't understand.

Also in that "They don't get it" grouping is the fact that, other than necessities, much of what we purchase is crap. Both materially as well as Socially.

[Nadienne]

24. Good post! A few comments:

I think the huge profit margins will eventually be the downfall for corporations like WalMart, because of something Marx said (or that he pointed out): who will WalMart sell their stuff to when no one can afford to buy it?

Well, sure, that's why we have credit cards - so that we can buy more things that we don't need and can't really afford. But I think credit cards slow down the lack-of-sales. Eventually corporations will realize they can't realistically sustain their profit margins, or people will wise up to how they are being robbed at the workplace/checkout counters and demand change. If this trend of personal debt continues, sales will drop. It will happen, eventually, if it isn't already happening. Maybe it's been happening for a long time. (Are sales of stock treated the same, mathematically, as sales of products and services? Do they use sales of stock to determine their profit margin?)

Have you seen The Corporation?

[Tafiti]

31. Great post! Couldn't agree more.

Went to amazon.com to read reviews for Bill Quinn's "How Wal-Mart is Destroying America..." and saw this review. Apparently, this came from the Drudge Report, so who knows if it's true. (This was probably around back in Feb., but I wasn't around then). Has this been verified or debunked?

********************************

Teresa Heinz Kerry blasted WAL-MART last week week -- but an investigation reveals she has over $1,000,000 in WAL-MART stock, and purchased a ton of it throughout 2002!

MORE

"Another thing that drives me crazy, and I hope I don't offend anyone here, is WAL-MART," Mrs. Kerry told a group of Democratic women activists at a luncheon in St. Paul last Tuesday. "They destroy communities."

Teresa Heinz Reality:

H.J. Heinz III Marital Trust

Wal-Mart Stores Inc.
Assets: Over $1,000,000
Dividends, Income: $2,501 - $5,000
Transactions:

04/04/02: Purchase: $500,001 - $1,000,000
04/05/02: Purchase: $500,001 - $1,000,000
06/04/02: Purchase: $15,001 - $50,000
06/06/02: Purchase: $50,001 - $100,000
11/13/02: Purchase: $50,001 - $100,000
11/14/02: Purchase: $15,001 - $50,000
11/14/02: Purchase: $15,001 - $50,000

[Bridget Burke]

32. Find a better source, please.

Reviews on Amazon.com are not wholly reliable. Here's a summary of "The Family Circus" by Bil Keane.

Smoking some marijuana given to him by Uncle Roy, Jeffy, who is also an alcoholic, manages to set fire to the house and burn it to the ground. The insurance company refuses to pay because of Daddy's previous arson convictions. When Thel meets the psychopathic Uncle Roy at the homeless shelter, he uses his charm to convince her to abandon Daddy and join him in a countrywide murderous spree. John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer, and Jack the Ripper could have learned a lot from this pair of degenerates. Having one's mother and uncle appear on _America's Most Wanted_, understandably, subjects the kids to unending merciless taunts from their schoolmates. Thankfully, Daddy's large collection of automatic weapons and handguns was destroyed in the fire. It is almost always a bad idea to keep lots of loaded weapons lying all over the house. Another Columbine is averted.

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/082491211X/qid=1104251527/sr=8-2/ref=pd_csp_2/103-2055066-5655844?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

[Tafiti]

57. Yes, I realize that.

It's obviously a repuke who probably reads the Drudge Report daily. But I thought, if it was on the Drudge Report, a lot of times people will paste or link comments/stories and discuss. It apparently was from February of this year, and w/ all the election hoopla, I figured there was probably a lot of back and forth, and perhaps this "story" made it here. But I just discovered DU in September. Just curious if anyone had seen it before.

[MadHound]

37. Nice post, but I have a couple of quibbles with you vis-a-vis WalMart

WalMart's business model was and is designed to get around the monopoly laws of the US. Sam Walton learned his lessons at business school well, and developed a business model based on vertical integration. The more well known form of a monopoly is a business model based on horizontal integration. Standard Oil buys up it's competition until all oil companies are part of Standard Oil. This type of monopoly was outlawed long ago.

WalMart's brand of monopolistic practices was a revalation at the time it was unveiled, and is a much emulated business model today. Vertical integration works like this. You are Sam Walton, owner of the small retail chain Wal Mart. You wish to grow, but are facing stiff competition. Instead of buying up your competition, you buy up the trucking company that deliviers to your stores(and you competition). That will cut down on your shipping costs, and make you a tidy profit as you use that trucking company to gouge other competitors in your neck of the woods. Prices still not low enough, you go another step up the ladder, and buy up the regional, then national distributors of various products in your store. Costs still not low enough yet? Then you buy up the manufacturer. Suddenly, you have got major clout, not only with your competition, but also with the suppliers that you haven't bought up. You can use this clout to lower your costs even further, and force your suppliers to cut their prices to you. You can also use this clout to drive your competitors out of business. Since your competitors have to buy much of the crap that they sell from manufacturers that you own, you can jack up the price on them. You can also jack up the price on distribution and shipping costs, since you own the distibutors and trucking companies that your competitors have to use. And now, since you have the largest clout in the business, you can also force manufacturers, distributors and shipping companies to cut you special deals, deals that are unavailable to other businesses because they are smaller than you

Now that you are the behemoth of the business ocean, you can go into any town and city and deliberately undercut your competition until you drive them out of business. Plop a big box down on the outside of Anyburg USA, drop your prices on many, even most items during your first two years of opening, and boom, your competition is gone, along with the town's other retail outlets and downtown area. Then you are free to set your pricing as you wish, for after all, being the only retailer left in town, what are the townsfolk going to do? Go over to the next town thirty miles away? They would burn up their savings on gas money, and besides, you've got one of your big boxes open over there too. Its all good for you, and the only downsides are felt by the townspeople you've invaded. Not only are they forced to pay monopolistic prices at your stores, but unemployment is up(for every job that a WalMart creates in a town, 1.5 jobs are lost), and there is this blight of a big box store, and tax revenue for the town is being lost at a record rate. WalMart probably extracted some hefty tax concessions from the overwhelmed city council folks, and since all of the other town's businesses are being driven under by WalMart's underhanded business practices, you have no tax revenue coming in from them.

WalMart also relies on the largesse of corporate welfare given out by local, state, and the national government. WalMart receives 1 billion plus dollars annually in subsidies from state and local governments. This is killing the education system of thousands of towns and cities across the US. WalMart comes in, recieves of serious cut on it's property taxes to do a "favor" for the town of situating a store in their community. After it drives out it's local competition, the education funding drops. After all, with the rest of businesses driven out, and WalMart paying little or nothing in property taxes, there is simply not enough money coming in to put back into the school system.

In addition, WalMart uses state and federal programs to subsidize the abysmal wages it pays it's workers. According to a Congressional Report on subsidies to the retail giant, it was estimated that for every single average WalMart box, employing 200 workers, that we the taxpayers kick in over $420,000 annually in order to provide the employees with food stamps, basic medical care, free school lunches, etc. etc. because the retail giant pays it's workers so poorly. This amounts to over another one and a quarter billion that taxpayers across the country pay out annually in order to subsidize this behemoth.

Then there is that other WalMart first, the accleration of US outsourcing of jobs. Since WalMart is able to put the squeeze on manufacturers for the lowest possible prices, this has greatly accelerated the outsourcing of US jobs, especially in the manufacturing sector. Despite it's one time ad campaign of "Made in the USA", WalMart is the largest importer of foreign goods, many of them made in foreign sweatshops and prisons. WalMart accounts for ten percent of all of the goods imported from China alone. While WalMart didn't invent outsourcing, their predatory pricing policies certainly accelerated the process to a degree otherwise unheard of.

Your arguement that WalMart is simply another corporate giant flies in the face of facts. WalMart has been the leader and innovator in several areas, from getting around the monopoly laws to predatory pricing schemes. It has written the book on everything from how to destroy a town's business community to how to extract outrageous amounts of cash from the US taxpayers. It is simply not another corporate giant, WalMart is in a classs all it's own. It is a blight upon this land, and quite frankly it should either be stringently regulated, or done away with entirely. If it is allowed to thrive as it currently does, then before you know it, we'll all be WalMartized, whether we shop there, work there, or not.

[Solon]

39. I agree to an extant, Wal*Mart is the leader...

The point I'm making is that they ARE the standard now. They lead and all others are following, granted they have to catch up, but it is leading straight to a cliff, where we will all fall off.

[MadHound]

40. So the answer then is as simple as what happened to Standard Oil

Standard Oil was leading the country over the cliff in the late 1800s-early 1900s. It was the one setting the example in how low a corporation could go, much like WalMart is today. Yet it was broken up, regulated, and presto, chango, it changed our entire country and economy for the better.

If you pull WalMart back by the horns, it will prevent the rest of the pack from going over the edge. Otherwise, it will simply lead the herd merrily to it's, and our, doom.

[Solon]

44. That's exactly it...

and the biggest thing is that people are blind to the real world costs of supporting companies like Wal*Mart because they percieve savings that are not in reality there.

[JNelson6563]

42. It's easier to say Wal-Mart

than it is to name all those who are driving the Wal-Mart machine.

Julie

[reprobate]

46. I believe we here at DU are the moderates in this argument.

We are looking for system reformation from a gov't that is owned by the very corporations that are the problem.

IT WON'T HAPPEN. It won't happen because they won't allow it to happen. Just look at Clinton and NAFTA. He pushed it thru and we all know it resulted in the very same problems that we knew it would.

As I said, we are the moderates. On the one side we have the corporatists, government. They will do everything they can to see the corporate model succeeds (personnally I think that capitalism, being a zero sum game, is self defeating, but that's beside the point here) because they profit from it.

On the other side are the radicals. We saw them in seattle and miami. And we saw the corporate (police) reaction. I believe that this kind of reaction just plays into the radical agenda. It causes the radicals to react in a like manner.

For myself, I fear that the radical agenda will start targetting the corporations, or the heads of the corporations. The one thing that this system forgets is that this is an armed country. Many civilians now have been trained to kill by the same system that is now using them to enrich the top 1%. I can imagine a time not too far off when radicals place the bombs under the limos of the CEOs. When no CEO can go out in public for fear of being targetted by snipers. If this happens the system will fall apart quickly.

I said that I fear this will happen. Not because I don't want to see the system fail. The system will fail on it's own. I said 'fear' because this will cause the system to defend itself, putting into effect all those 'executive orders' that will put masses of innocent people into 'internment camps', and that will only accelerate the system failure.

Perhaps there MUST be another dark age before we emerge into the light. I don't know. What I DO know is that change is innevitable.

[Silverhair]

50. Not likely.

Most people just want to quietly get on with their lives. Even the radicals don't get just wake up one morning and say, "I think I'll be a radical." It is almost always a drifting process, where they are first exposed to radical thought, then radical associations, etc, until they are finally radicalized.

Before we reach the stage you are talking about, CURRENT TECHNOLOGY will be able to be used to identify people who are drifting toward radicalism, before they reach that stage, and to ID radicals that are tending to violence.

What technology?

In about a year or two, your cell phone, if on, will continously report your location to within 100 yards. This will be for enhanced 911 abilities and to save electricty by allowing the phone company to narrowbeam your calls to you, instead of broadcast them. But it will still report where it is, all the time, and that can be kept as a permenant record.

RFIDs. Eventually, and not to far away at that, everything you buy will have it own Radio Frequency Identification Device (RFID). Since most purchases are made with checks or with plastic, there will be an exact record of your purchases.

Privacy, as I knew it is already gone. Soon we will all live in fishbowls. And the dangerous radicals will be IDed early, before they become dangerous, and dealt with without the rest of knowing anything. No internment camps needed. Those are so very last century.

[Solon]

52. There are always ways to live outside the system...

RFIDs don't have the power to transmit beyond a few feet, and you could always destroy them, when found. Prepaid cellphones don't have your name attached, and you could drop them into an alley after you are done. Hackers, Phreaks, and wiz kids of the previous age will be invaluable to any cause like that. Also, people will not sit idly by while they starve, or when they freeze to death at the behest of greed of corporations and their subjudicated governments. Think of the elderly woman who died because of deregulation and the greed of her gas company. What would you do if that was you mother, grandmother, or wife? What would you do in a decimated town that lost ALL jobs due to outsourcing, and your kids are starving? People can be pushed only so far, and while many are blind to it, there are due for a rude awakening. Radicals can be born overnight, that has been demonstrated in history and even now. When people have nothing to lose, they will turn to the most violent actions to make that loss have meaning.

[Tafiti]

59. Hmmm, interesting.

I'm a big fan of Derrick Jensen's work, and he has a book on this very subject that I was thinking of buying soon. You seem to be privy to this already, I'd be interested to see if you read this book.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1931498520/qid=1104263214/sr=1-6/ref=sr_1_6/104-3887897-3409564?v=glance&s=books

http://www.derrickjensen.org/published.html

[Silverhair]

61. No, I haven't read the book. As far as I knew I was alone

in going that direction. I will take a look at it. Thanks.

[48pan]

60. I Like Walmart

I no longer have to drive 25 miles to buy stuff. If I had to rely on the local retail stores for my needs, I'd be in rough shape. I'd have plenty of hardware, shoes, Chinese food and pizza, but not much else.

[arikara]

64. How's this for irony...

I wonder how long this will last before they censor it. Too funny!

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=3416494

[femme.democratique]

65. Hell*Mart t-shirt: Always low wages. ALWAYS!

I got one before the election .....oops, I mean SE-lection...Profits go to an Anti Wal-Mart campaign...

http://www.cafepress.com/cp/browse/Ntt-hell+mart_nr-1_N-20794332_Ntk-All_D-hell+mart_Nao-1