Who would you rather have running Ukraine?

[HEyHEY]

I can't believe people have been defending the guy who poisoned his opponent and rigged the first election. No wonder Bush "won" in 2000.

[Warpy]

1. Anbody who will stand up to both Bush and Putin

[AG78]

13. Agreed

Unfortunately, that won't happen in one of the most important areas of the world.

[InvisibleBallots]

2. Who defended Yanukovych?

Did anyone on DU defend Yanukovych? Can you link to this post? Thanks.

[HEyHEY]

9. Join the party

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1099711&mesg_id=1099711

[rogerashton]

3. George W. Bush

n/t

[donheld]

44. rogerashton right on

let Bushie run the place. give us a real president

[MissBrooks]

4. Yushenko

Yushenko is the pro-western candidate. He wants the Ukraine to break ties with Putin and to stand strongly on their own.

His wife is American.

[Union Thug]

21. and to sell off Ukraine to western corporations...

Honestly, I don't think I'm up for cheering on anyone in this election. There are too many unanswered questions and too much foriegn capital at work to trust ANYTHING.

[antigone382]

58. An American who worked for a conservative think-tank.

Don't get me wrong, Yanukovich is a bastard. But Yuschenko's not the gleaming knight he's being made out to be. The media is not telling us the truth--not that that's a surprise or anything. Yuschenko is the lesser of two evils, but that's it.

[JanMichael]

5. It's none of my business.

And since there was fraud alledged by both parties, and heavy US interferance in the election, maybe our nation should back the fuck out too. $66 Million dollars over two years to influence another contries election would not be tolerated if the roles were reversed and the US was being manipulated by, let's say, Japan.

[MARALE]

6. Bush!!!!

Let him run Ukraine, they at least can tell when an election has been rigged!

[Maple]

7. Is there any proof

of these assertions? Or is it just more hype?

Bush kicked in over $60M to the 'opposition' you know, and the new 'first lady' was once a Reagan aide.

If the KGB or Ukraine govt wanted to poison anyone, that person would be dead, not just looking dreadful for awhile. It will wear off you know.

None of this sounds fishy to you?

[HEyHEY]

10. The use of that particular poison was a KGB trademark

I think both the US and RUssia have been meddling. But I don't think Yuschenko cheated or killed anyone. Plus the election went off properly this time and he won.

[Maple]

11. So if YOU know that......

then everyone does....so that's what they'd use.

I suspect he did it to himself. Got lots of sympathy...very visible. And it isn't actually damaging.

Got him the election too.

[HEyHEY]

14. How about the other stuff?

What about the stolen election?

[Maple]

19. and this one wasn't ??

Jeepers, by the time the US kicked in money, and the 'orange revolution'...tons of scarves and hats on the market instantly...got world wide publicity, and the sympathy factor for the 'poisoning'....who had a chance against him??

Works both ways.

[HEyHEY]

20. All the observers are saying it was on the level.

Yan has just as much access to money.

[Susang]

26. Isn't actually damaging?!?..That's ludicrous!

With the the visible chloracne and the levels of dioxin he had in his blood, the man will most likely not make it another ten years without experiencing a major cancer. One that will kill him, I should add.

You really should read a little more on the subject. No person would consume that amount of dioxin willingly, just to frame an enemy. He would be committing suicide.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

27. Yeah I believe Dioxin poisoning leads to breain cancer

that'd be worth bringing upon one's self :eyes:

[Forkboy]

75. LMFAO

I suspect he did it to himself. Got lots of sympathy...very visible. And it isn't actually damaging.

Just when I think I've seen the stupidest post of the day someone goes and ups the ante.

[Donkeyboy75]

77. Dioxins are hard to detect.

And, they are one of the deadliest classes of organic chemicals out there.

But don't let facts get in the way of your world view. :hi:

[Selatius]

35. Ricin was prefered by the KGB, not Dioxin

If Putin wanted Yushenko dead, he'd be dead. It looked like someone was overly zealous and tried to do it on his own without help from the big guys.

[HEyHEY]

37. He wanted him to die slowly so it wouldn't cause trouble

Hence the Dioxyn

[Selatius]

47. That doesn't seem to fly, look at what the poisoning has done.

Dioxin poisoning already caused trouble given the condition of his face. I doubt the FSB (once the KGB) would pick a poison that would display such obvious symptoms. As far as I can tell, I think it was some zealot in the Ukraine who tried to do it on his own, not someone in Moscow. The FSB can be called many things, but I doubt insanely incompetent is one of them.

[HEyHEY]

51. I'd say most of Russian government and branches can be called that

Remember the Lada?

[Zynx]

67. The FSB/SVR would have killed him

And they would have used ricin or botulinum or puffer fish venom, or something similarly organic and extremely lethal.

[HEyHEY]

69. But they have been known to use Dioxin in the past

[bpilgrim]

24. smells fishy to me, too...

all this drama is just the kind of thing we are good at.

BTW: has anyone heard what the MACHINES or 'official' tallys have said on who won, yet?

peace

[mark414]

8. yushenko

he's a liberal

[NoPasaran]

12. Yushchenko

He's no saint, but he's a damn sight better than his opponent, who is a front man for the current journalist-murdering thug Kuchma. If a few US dollars have gone to help the Ukrainian opposition then I say good for us. It's nice to be on the side of the good guys for a change, however it might have happened.

[prolesunited]

15. Hard to say

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2870381

[ThorsHammer]

16. Yuschenko, because he's who the Ukranians wanted (nt)

[Union Thug]

17. "the Dude"... el duderino... /eom

[HEyHEY]

18. Good choice

[name not needed]

22. Yushenko

He may not be perfect, but at least he didn't have his goons poison the opposition candidate.

[bpilgrim]

23. looks like the propaganda is working

at least in the US...

no one ever heard of yushenko or yanukovich since the fall of 04 yet many have gone for the same guy our elites are, hmmm... interesting :evilgrin:

peace

[HEyHEY]

45. care to expand

[bpilgrim]

66. just point out how opinion is aligned with the narrative of our elite medi

just stating the obvious, i suppose... and it isn't like we haven't meddled before.

i really don't care who wins as long as they/we don't start throwing nukes at each-other.

i think the edge goes to russia considering the FACTS ON THE GROUND in other regions of the world not to mention their proximity which is the first law of influence.

BTW: have the MACHINES/OFFICIAL tally been announced, yet?

peace

[latteromden]

25. Neither is wonderful, but taking into account the differences between US

and Ukraine politics... Yushchenko.

[MisterP]

28. not the Kissinger-Brzezinski-Powell-NED-IMF St. Yushchenko

[HEyHEY]

30. I left my decoder pin at home - who do you like?

;-)

[moondust]

29. Do you KNOW the guy did all that?

Or are you regurgitating what U.S. Republican TV and U.S. Republican election observers have told you?

[HEyHEY]

32. I don't know any election observers

ANd "US republican TV" isn't the only station reporting such things. Try EVERY news source from the CBC to the BBC to Italian and French Media. Where did you get your info? Some "street fighter rag' you found at a bustop?

[moondust]

42. I"m just asking.

Did all those media get their information about rigged elections from the U.S. Republican election observers or did other countries have people on the ground monitoring the elections, etc.? I'm trying to find out what exactly substantiates the claims that Yushchenko's opponent poisoned him and rigged the elections.

You see, I can picture the CIA doing this kind of stuff to gain overwhelming sympathy and support for the "victim."

[HEyHEY]

43. Sorry

SO many pricks around here these days, I snap easily.

THere's been 12,000 observers from all over including 500 Canadians reporting no problems

[Darranar]

31. As opposed to the person who is subservient to Western corporate power?

If Yushchenko won legitimately, I would rather have him than his opponent by a slight margin. If he did not, I refuse to make the choice.

[HEyHEY]

33. I agree on your last point

As for the first if I was Ukrainian I'd rather take a shot at getting in the EU than latch on to that loser nation of Russia for another century.

[Darranar]

39. Would you rather be latched to Western investors and corporations? n/t

[HEyHEY]

41. Than a brutal regime that treated my people like shit for decades?

Yes

[Walt Starr]

34. I voted for Yushenko

but I have no clue who poisoned him, and neither do you.

[HEyHEY]

36. It's EXTREMELY obvious

THey've been trying to kill him for months.

[Walt Starr]

38. Proof please

you've made the accusation. The proof is required from you.

[HEyHEY]

40. here

Yushchenko said last Friday that he was not accusing the SBU secret services of trying to poison him despite suspicions that he ingested a massive dose of dioxin during a dinner with two of its agents.

Yushchenko had told reporters that he suspected that he swallowed the poison during a dinner he had with SBU chief Ihor Smeshko and his deputy


I assume you know Smeshko is an ex-KGB agent and the Head of Security for the nation under Yanukovych.

PRetty well matches the theories everyone here seems to use about Bush.

[Walt Starr]

46. Suspicions, accusations, and innuendo are not proof

Sorry, even if Smeshko DID poison him, it doesn't prove Yanukovych had anything to do with it.

You gave no more "proof" than the media does in a circus court case!

[HEyHEY]

48. You have proof he didn't or are you gonna pussy out?

And sit back and say "We don't know that" while Yan runs amok/?

If it was RUmsfeld and Kerry in TWO FUCKING seconds you and the rest of DU would be yelling about how RUmmy poisoned Kerry

[Walt Starr]

49. YOU made the initial positive assertion

He is innocent until PROVEN guilty.

So prove your accusation or admit it is mere *opinion*.

[HEyHEY]

50. I'm not the Ukranian Supreme Court

And anything I post is going to be considered opinion. However, as I said if it had something to do with RUmmy and Kerry ... it'd be a different story. It's like connect the dots... And Yan should be charged.

"Innocent til proven guilty"? How do you know what the premise of Ukranian Justice is?

[Walt Starr]

52. Sorry dude, thought we were debating

and following set procedures for such. In logical discourse, the claimant with the intial positve assertion is under the burden of proof. You made the assertion that he is guilty of poisoning Yushenko. I called you on it. You failed to back it up. I won the debate.

Anything more is mere mental masturbation.

[HEyHEY]

54. A debate isn't just saying "Prove it" and not proving your opposition

You failed as well.

[Walt Starr]

56. You made the initial positive assertion

I called you on it. You failed to provide proof of your assertion automatically relegating it to the level of opinion rather than fact.

Sorry, maybe you should take a course on debate and get back to me.

[HEyHEY]

57. I think it's you who needs the "course on debating"

Your opinion that I'm wrong is no more solid than what you say is wrong about my opinion of the situation. As soon as I asked you somethign back you declined. Making it not a debate, but an offence.
As well, you haven't won a debate just because you declare you have.

Why am I talking about this still, oye

[Walt Starr]

59. You made the original post!

You asserted that Yanukovych poisoned Yushenko. You had no proof, only your opinion. I called you on it. If your stating an opinion, state it as opinion, not fact.

You'd be laughed out of any debate with shit like that!

[HEyHEY]

60. Maybe in your twisted world where guys yelling from the peanut gallery

Count.

Seriously though walt...we're like 20 posts in and aren't going to agree. Stop by sometime...we'll exchange insults over a bottle of rum.

[Walt Starr]

63. Sorry dude, you made an assertion as fact and got called on it

It's opinion, nothing more un til you have evidence to support the assertion.

[Tinoire]

53. From what I'm reading about Yushchenko and the Bush connections

I'm not liking it at all. He's remindig me of Boris Yeltsin who systematically dismantled his country and sold it off, part by part to the highest bidders.

Yushchenko is surrounded by a few too many oligarchs and has a little too much support from the gas men in the White House for my tastes.

I can't vote. My choice, until we know more, is neither.

[Proud liberal Kat]

55. Whomever the majority of the Ukrainians voted for...

I honestly don't know enough about their country's needs or wants or really enough about either of the canidates. I just hope whomever the majority of the Ukrainians really wanted to run their country is the one who gets the job.
Kathy

[ButterflyBlood]

61. Yushenko of course

I don't see everything in a black and white "enemy of my enemy is my friend" terms like the Freepers and obviously some leftists do.

[HEyHEY]

62. Oh but wait BB

Yuschenko married an American who knows Bush...he's obviously involved in some plot to rape Ukraine and then take off to tahiti while his peopel starve!

[ButterflyBlood]

64. But you forgot that Justin Raimondo said Yuschenko was bad!

sure Raimondo is a buddy of Pat Buchanan and a supporter of Le Pen, but he opposed the war, so that means he must be right about everything!

[HEyHEY]

65. uh oh the enemy of my enmey is my enemy for another reason

I'm so confused

[Hippo_Tron]

68. I've thought about it, Yushenko is the lesser of the two evils

Yanukovich's regime has been aweful, and somebody that will come in and shake things up is a good thing. Yuschenko should be in power but he should be given a short leash by his people to make sure that he is acting in their interests, not in the interests of the Bush administration.

[TheKingfish]

70. Anybody stupid enough to send troops to Iraq

Deserves to lose. I wonder if Yushenko will pull them out?

[cire4]

71. I've heard Yushchenko will pull the troops out....

He made a quote along those lines at some point during the campaign trail. Don't have a link though to prove it....

Why would Bush support him if he wants to pull troops out of Iraq?

Answer: PNAC PNAC PNAC

[TankLV]

72. Yuschenko - he's at least a Ukrainian, and not a Russian like his opponent

Hell, his opponent can't even speak Ukrainian!

As a Ukrainian myself, we prefer someone who is a UKRAINIAN running things - and the proof is in the results - the Ukrainians themselves prefer Yuschenko.

Case closed as far as I'm concerned.

[bpilgrim]

73. and so does Ahmad Chalabi

though i would want him running IRAQ even though i'm not iraqi :hi:

btw: i always thought you were american :hi:

also, has the MACHINES/OFFICIAL tallys been broadcasted yet?

anyone know when they are due?

tia :toast:

peace

[Paula Sims]

76. Speaking Ukrainian and being Ukrainian mean more than most people think

I agree with TankLV in that it's preferred that a Ukrainian run things. The first president of Ukraine, Leonid Kravchuk, spoke Ukrainian on TV but spoke Russian to his family. BAD PR!

I've said this many times and I hope that I'm right. Just because the west pumped money into the reelection and his wife was a former Regan person doesn't mean that Yuschenko will be a puppet of the west. I think (hope) he will surprise many on both sides and do what is best for Ukraine and the Ukrainian people. Ukrainians have long memories and we still remember Sr. Bush's "Chicken Kiev" speech where he basically told the Ukrainian parliament to forget ideas about independence and moving away from "mother Russia" and just be nice children. That did NOT go over well in the Ukrainian community, and that was one of many reasons why I became a Democrat (that, and the love of a great husband who showed me the light on many issues).

One important fact that I do not believe I have seen brought up is that Ukraine cannot and will not have Western (i.e. American) style democracy (OK, the type we used to have). That's not the mentality of the Ukrainian people. We are followers (but not sheeple) who are willing to stand and die behind a strong leader who we feel have our best interests at heart. The Orange Revolution is case in point. What was amazing, given our history of being so divided, is how many people stood behind one person, one ideal. In the history of Ukraine, we were always a divided people, be it politically (a Melnykivitz, Bandurivitz, whatever-ivitz), religiously (Orthodox, Eastern Catholic, new calendar, old calendar) or whatever. Since 1054 when Jaroslav "the Wise" divided up his kingdom among his sons, we have been a divided nation and that eventually cost us our freedom. We united and became one again.

Perhaps there is a lesson somewhere in there for the Democratic party leaders.

Paula

[jpgray]

74. I don't know enough about either to make that estimation (nt)

[leftyandproud]

78. the anti bush candidate *NT*

[JVS]

79. Yanukovich

Russia and Ukraine should be close friends for the sake of their mutual security. The closer they are, the more stable the region will be