Love the haters? Tolerate the intolerant?

[msmcghee]

Civil discourse and respect for those you disagree with is a wonderful concept. When followed it allows people to live peaceful and hopeful lives. America used to be a beacon of those values to the world. We were showing that it could be done. We were well on our way to proving that everyone could be a winner in a system that treats all people and their ideas with dignity and respect. There's only one problem - such lofty ideals only work when both sides embrace them.

So why are we being such chumps now? I'm tired of those here at DU who get so upset when someone here calls the RW on some of their more hateful words and actions - like a recent thread on that bigoted racist Reggie White. Fair play and civility also means honesty - it means calling people on their racism and bigotry and the damage they do to others. Our personal loss in this struggle is not that important. By failing to join the battle, by failing to be intolerant of intolerance you are causing the defeat of those ideas you claim to honor. You can not defend those values by applying them to people who despise them.

When someone declares war on you there's only two things that can happen - you can win or lose. I've heard many of you say (or imply) that you'd rather lose than be like them. Calling someone a bigot and a racist is not being like them. It is not being uncivil - if it's true. But failing to call them on it is being a coward.

Losing this war that was declared on us will guarantee that our children and our children's children will be forced to live their lives in the world of hate, intolerance and ignorance that we are fast becoming. Are you willing to lose this war just so you can personally avoid the fight?

Perhaps you are. But at least don't criticize those of us who are willing to point out bigotry and hatred where and when it occurs.

</soapbox>

[RUDUing2]

1. it isn't about pointing it out, it is about making sure to do so in a

productive way, instead of just reinforcing their beliefs.

It's about trying to change them or at least the way they are percieved by the impressionable instead of giving them fuel for their flame..

[msmcghee]

6. You will not change them . .

. . get over it. You can only defeat them - or let them defeat you. There is no productive way to do it - except to destroy them before they destroy us.

Liberals knew how to fight for what we believed in a few decades ago. I wish we could remember those lessons now.

[RUDUing2]

11. but you can keep them from converting others to their beliefs..but not

if you respond in a way that allows them to say "see they are just like I said"

[msmcghee]

15. Those who could be converted . .

. . already are. Either that or they're oblivious of the world around them and not worth worrying about.

If there are some who haven't figured out which side they're on by this time - they're just as likely to figure that the side that fights the hardest is the one that will probably win and is also the one worth supporting.

People do not choose sides in this kind of war logically. Either you are liberal or conservative psychologically. By age twenty-five or so almost no-one ever changes that orientation - save some life changing experience, like a near death encounter for example. And such an emotional experience would be anything but logical.

The biggest failing of liberalism is believing that people make these decisions intelligently rather than emotionally. It just doesn't happen - on either side. Yet we continue to ask them to just be reasonable. How silly.

[RUDUing2]

16. or they are young and still forming their ideas and self.

[msmcghee]

17. A good (young) person forming . .

. . their ideas about life . . should be attracted to a philosophy that stands up for the weak and minorities against bullies.

By calling the racists, bigots and bullies what they are is the first step in attracting the right kind of young people willing to join the good fight for an honorable cause.

Trading away the rights of women to have control of their own bodies - - so the RW won't be so mean to us is exactly the wrong way to attract those who I'd welcome to our side.

[RUDUing2]

18. it is about how you word it..if you try to play their game..You lose..

they are the masters at it..

You can not call them bigots, etc while giving the impression you are bigotted against them..you just succeed in *proving* their claims..

You can not say they are hate filled while preaching hate against them..you simply help them convince others that what they are claiming about you is correct.

You can not call them bullies while trying to bully others into believing what you are saying about them...you validate their claims in the eyes of others that way.

[msmcghee]

19. You have spoken the conventional wisdom . .

. . of many on the left.

That's the problem. We're so damned worried about what someone might think about us that we're afraid to engage in the struggle. The right is depending on that.

If someone says something racist or bigoted - I don't give a damn. I consider it my duty to call them on it. To fail to do so is contributing as far as I'm concerned.

I was once at a dinner with several people at a restaraunt. A guy said something that included the word "nigger". A friend of mine said to him, "I don't like the use of that word in my presence. Either you apologize or one of us will have to leave. It's your choice".

The guy apologized. And from that day on I have tried to live up to that ideal way to handle such situations. It would have been very easy for my friend to do as I did. To just keep my thoughts to myself so as not to create an uncomfortable scene in public. But he had the courage to risk his own poularity and speak out and call this person a racist publicly.

We should all do that - and let the chips fall where they may. We should do what's right - and not worry so much what anybody thinks about it.

[RUDUing2]

20. that is wonderful in a dream world..but this is a the real world...and

you do have to be concerned w/how other percieve what you say if you want what you say to do any good.

You have to decide which is more important...making yourself feel good by saying whatever you want and damn the consequences or actually accomplishing some good by making sure how you say it is the right way to say it...

[msmcghee]

23. I can see how our . . .

. . careful avoidance of offending the right wing has worked so well for us by convincing a majority of Americans to vote for our reasonable un-offensive candidates who never say anything bad about the right - even when they call him a coward and a liar and a fraud for his wartime medals and injuries.

After all, we're all entitled to our opinion, aren't we? I'm sure that impressed a lot of those in the middle who just couldn't figure out who to vote for.

But, you do it your way and I'll do it mine. I'm just expressing my opinion. Don't I get the same consideration from you as Reggie White - who was just expressing his?

*******************

Thanks for the polite repartee - but people do not make these choices logically. It is an emotional choice. People go with their gut. They go with someone they can identify with - who feels things the way they feel things. That's how they decide if they can trust them.

Everyone was feeling fear and hatred from 9/11. Bush expertly rode that pony to his second term. Kerry's dispassionate overly-cautious don't-offend-anyone campaign under the circumstances impressed no-one.

Neither will the tactics you advise.

[RUDUing2]

24. and the ones you advise will only further divide the country and give

credence to conserves claims and help them further their agenda even more...

[msmcghee]

30. OK, you could be right and I could be blind.

To convince me just give me one example . . . where at any time since since Clinton was first elected, appealing to the common good and being reasonable and trying not to offend the right has made the world a slightly better place.

[RUDUing2]

32. I know people who voted for Bush the first time and against him the second

don't you?

[msmcghee]

34. But I doubt that had anything to do with logic . .

. . I suspect they were simply convinced of the possibility that we on the left may be right about things.

If so, they were convinced by those of us who were outraged enough by what was going on that we expressed our outrage honestly without worrying what others would think about it. The back of my car was a traveling RW indictment. And I'm sure you'd consider many of my bumper stickers over the line.

I can guarantee you they weren't convinced by any logical argument that Kerry gave (or failed to give).

[Boosterman]

33. Your friend handled that admirably but

what would have been the guys reaction if he started in on the guy calling him a racist piece of southern trash? (assuming hes a southern white boy that is)

[msmcghee]

35. That's my point.

We don't have to be flaming assholes to be honestly outraged by bigotry.

Be we can not be cowards about it either. That will earn no-one's respect.

[Boosterman]

37. Ahhh

we are on the same side of this debate. I misunderstood your point.

[Ladyhawk]

22. This is very possible.

I've struggled with the "intolerant of intolerance" issue for a long time. I was heavily indocrinated and managed to think myself out with some help. The professors at my college were incredibly patient with me. New information was practically forced down my throat and it still took over four years for it to sink in.

Why don't I feel like extending that patience to others? Well, mostly because they've said they don't want to talk about it..."it" being anything to do with religion or politics. That's called "willful ignorance." There's no way to change someone who refuses to let in new information.

I'm not sure what to make of it, except that the process of changing was so hard for me that I understand why most others won't do it. I'm still not sure it was good for me to take the red pill. Can I go back and take the blue one? :)

[rkc3]

2. My New Year's Resolution:

To become less tolerant of others and more narrow-minded.

These are the traits most valued by the majority of America. As I become a bigger asshole, I expect to be held in higher regard by my closed-minded, fucktarded peers.

[musette_sf]

3. I think you mean Reggie White

Reggie Jackson, #44, The Straw That Stirs The Drink, Mr. October, is still selling cars somewhere in the SF Bay Area, last I heard. (Yeah, I'm a Yankees fan!)

Civil discourse began its slow ending when Reagan 86'd the Fairness Doctrine. I agree with you.

[msmcghee]

7. Ooops, I meant White

Thanks

[madinmaryland]

10. I wondered what ever happened to Mr. October.

He used to do commercials occasionally for the yankees.

[Dr.Phool]

4. I think you meant Reggie White

[ChairOne]

5. lol - o boy - this thread isn't gonna go well, i predict...

[Ladyhawk]

26. You think? :) n/t

[sui generis]

8. I totally agree

If you have a rose garden full of many wonderful ideas and philosophies you also have the perfect breeding ground for the weeds of fascism, authoritarianism, and other forms of extremism.

The only way to keep the weeds from killing your roses is to call them what they are, then rip them out.

[Jesus H. Christ]

9. Reggie! Reggie! Reggie! Reggie! Reggie!

[oscar111]

12. Holland bans Nazi party, last i heard.. decades ago

"we have no problem with doing that" i read of hollanders.

I think it was holland.. or belgium .. where nazis caused mass starvation.

We ban burglars, ban serial killers.

Homelessness kills a hundred thousand each year.

Heat, cold, rat bites. What else would one expect to happen? They die at three times the normal rate. Newborns and disabled elderly vets are among them.

[indigobusiness]

13. Reggie Jackson is even worse...

IMHO

[iconoclastic cat]

14. I agree completely.

Good rant.

[Royal Observer]

21. I'm taking no prisoners.

[displacedtexan]

25. Don't let the bastards eat you!

That was my father's advice when I left for college.

I've added a lot of bastard groups to my list since then.

Not giving them an inch.

[The Doctor.]

27. My mantra;

Love love,
Hate hate,
Fear fear,
Ignore the ignorant.

[msmcghee]

29. Dr. . . . I love your mantra

I wish some liberals could understand that we can't get by on just the first of those.

The RW mantra these days:

Hate love,
Love hate,
Use fear,
Appeal to the ingorant

[The Doctor.]

31. Nice twist - see it everday. n/t

[msmcghee]

36. Notice I said "these days"?

I see in your profile that you are an expat repug.

The thing about this that outrages me the most is that it is no longer possible to discuss politics in this country without being considered as completely "with or against" whoever you are talking with.

I believe that society's problems come in all shapes and sizes. Some require a more conservative or a more liberal approach to reach the optimum solution. Most require some combination of those. The only way to find those "best" solutions is for those on the right and the left to be civil and respectful of the others' ideas - and to be open minded about the search.

Thanks to the RW jihad and the total politicization of all problem domains - such enlightened problem solving is completely impossible. I believe our country is not only the worse off for that - we are probably in mortal danger of losing our democracy within the next decade.

Thanks for your comments.

[flaminbats]

28. sometimes racists, bigots only learn the hard way..with disability or age

we are all human, we all have flaws and problems, and all must learn to rely on each other to enjoy the benefits of life.

One can be tolerant, but only if the other person is willing be. However tolerance doesn't equal love.

[Tomee450]

38. In the case of

Reggie White, I could not disagree with you more. Many of the posts are filled with hatred. Reggie White expressed his opinion and one can disagree with it. However these posts are way over the line in my opinion. To be happy that someone is dead simply because he said something you disliked is just plain wrong. White is called intolerant. I think those who hate him for expressing his views are just as intolerant. They are exactly what they accuse White of being. I guess it boils down to how one is raised. I was taught not to hate. Rudy Giulani was quite unkind to African Americans who lived in NYC. I did not rejoice when he was diagnosed with cancer. Pat Buchanan has expressed great disdain for black people;I did not hope that he would die when he had his heart operation. What I see from reading many of these posts are cold hearts. Such lack of compassion is stunning.

[msmcghee]

39. I didn't say I was glad he was dead.

I'm not sure I could honestly say that about anybody unless they were trying to kill me at the time and it was self defense.

I did say he was a racist and a bigot.

Accuse those who are happy for his death of having a cold heart if you like.

But having a cold heart is a very minor sin in my book compared to being a racist and a bigot - something that actually damages and hurts others.

[Tomee450]

40. Perhaps you haven't

but others are gleeful at White's death. They hate him because he has expressed views they abhor. Many times I've heard the same kind of hatred directed at Democrats because of our views. It is wrong when the right wing does it and just as wrong when Democrats behave in such a manner. One can criticize a person but being jubilant when he has an untimely death is simply going way over the line and is despicable. How can Democrats accuse Republicans of being intolerant when they,too, engage in the same behaviour. The right wing says if you disagree with its views, you are evil, a pariah. Isn't that just what many here have turned White into, simply because of his views?

[NightTrain]

41. MsMcghee, you're my new hero!

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

We did not turn politics into a blood sport; the right did. And distasteful though it may be, if we don't play by the new rules, we will keep losing!

[gulliver]

42. The brilliance of Jesus call to love those who hate you ...

... is that it works regardless of whether you are in the right or wrong. The funny thing is, it is sometimes hard to judge other people and ourselves. We tend to deceive ourselves.

The people we demonize as bigots may or may not be bigots. The people who hate us may have reasons. And how do you propose to fight? That's the one I always want to know. Do you argue with people, call them bigots to their faces, demonstrate? Useless ... even counterproductive.

I'm all for fighting against evil, but I'm against futile, escalating pissing contests that end up bloody. People are far too stupid, emotional, and ill motivated in general to trust in any "just fight." Understanding others, however hard that may be, is always better.

But even as good as that policy is, there is no guarantee of success. We need some wise people to lead us, and I don't see a lot of them out there.