Is The American Empire Nearing Its End?

[Cyrano]

Every other empire in the history of the world fell. Why not ours? But what a run we've had. It's been an interesting 200 plus years. While importing indentured servants and slaves, we managed to murder an indigenous population and steal a continent.

Yeah, the good guys fought a Civil War to end slavery, (among other reasons), but the bad guys are back with a vengeance and it looks like we're just now learning who really did win the Civil War.

We had a golden age of corruption and robber barons, but their greed finally pushed us off a cliff into a depression and it took almost 20 years to put it all back together again. And in the meantime (and only because we were attacked at Pearl Harbor) we managed to save the world from fascism, barbarism, and then create a middle class of Americans. It truly was our most honorable era and was brought about by, as Tom Brokaw phrased it, "The Greatest Generation."

But robber barons, and thugs who seek world domination, never stay buried. They tore us apart during Vietnam and now, they're busy shredding the middle class and the Constitution.

Given the damage that's been done over the past four years, and will continue through the next four years, I believe that our empire is on it's last legs. The best we can hope for is that we won't use the remnants of our (military/nuclear) power to destroy the rest of planet earth.

And to think that just four short years ago we were still a beacon to most of the world. Today we are almost universally despised.

Yeah, we'll still be around four years from now, but like Greece, Rome, Great Britain and others, we will no longer be running the world. Nor should we be.

[CottonBear]

1. Grammar alert: it's should be its. n/t

on edit: Good comment on the decline of an empire.

[Cyrano]

10. Good catch. I fixed it. Thanks. Sometimes my fingers outrun my brain.

[htuttle]

2. It's all over but the crying now

Bush's invasion of Iraq is analogous to Hitler's invasion of Russia. Or Napolean's invasion of Russia. The last straw that broke the Empire's far-flung back.

Not sure what historians will decide was the 'final end' of the American Empire, but I'm sure they will say that the invasion of Iraq was the beginning of the end.

[MsTryska]

15. or the British Invasion of....uhhhhh...Iraq. nt

nt

[youngred]

16. I doubt Iraq will be our Russia

invading Iran and/or Syria and/or North Korea in addition could be. The Germans learned the hard way that a multi-front war is not the way to win, we have to learn that lesson ourselves. Iraq is not enough of a drain to destroy us, America is still on a peacetime footing, when/if we go to war footing we should be able to survive Iraq

[tinrobot]

71. Afghanistan was the Soviet Union's "Russia"

A small country full of insurgents bled a large nation dry.

I see many parallels in Iraq.

[youngred]

74. that's a better analogy

than invading Russia was for Napoelon and Hitler. The US, and Russia both failed to put their full weight into the war thinking they could win it on the cheap against a much smaller foe.

[jdj]

57. yes please.

I just want europeanization. I don't even know if that's a word, but that's what hicks around here say they DON'T want. I want people to stop acting to fucking special because of geography, and just accept were folks like everyone else, and become a more diversity appreciating nation.

We have progressive and retrogressive strains in our culture, we have to ensure that the progressive becomes dominant again and stays that way.

[snowbird42]

3. I sure have to agree with you.

Just saying we are the Greatest doesn't make it so!

[newyawker99]

64. Hi snowbird42!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cyrano]

11. Welcome to DU. Please do enlighten us.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[youngred]

29. lay off the newbie

please. It's better to change minds and inform people. Let the mods sort out disruptors...that's what they're there for

[kcwayne]

12. What in particular are you saying is distorted?

[BurtWorm]

19. A Berkeley undergrad!

Communist! ;)

[Nadienne]

49. The only thing I might contest

is: "And to think that just four short years ago we were still a beacon to most of the world."

I thought that even over four years ago we were subjugating most of the world to our economic demands... I thought that was one of the reasons we joined the fight in WWII.

[Pegleg Thd]

5. Before the bush cabal is finished

we will be blown by their bombs to one step this side of the cave man. That is if we survive at all.:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

[pinkpops]

6. lookie here

http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?cid=52445&PAGE=PRODUCT&PROD_ID=120619&fp=F&kid=1351367

[dbt]

7. This belongs on the home page, Cyrano.

Nicely done!

:toast:
dbt

[readmylips]

8. Agree...our mighty bombs will not help...

all the world has to do is to ignore us and stop doing business with us.

[jandrok]

9. Approaching, but not for a while....

The idea of Pax Americana really didn't take shape until after World War II. As such, ours is a fairly young empire by comparison with most that fit the description.

What it will take is a truly determined effort by European and/or Asian economic spheres to counterbalance us. Those efforts are well underway.

We're rotting in much the same way that Rome did. Internal corruption combined with an unwitting and uncaring populace, with a military stretched far beyond it's boundaries. The parallels are astounding.

Of course, I also see some parallels between us and 1930's Germany...another failed empire based on Roman aspirations.

[Royal Observer]

18. How long did the Roman Empire last?

I've heard it was about 800 years or so. We're still young.

[BurtWorm]

20. Life spans of empires vary.

It seems silly to point out that different contexts yield different results.

[Cyrano]

21. Yes, but, the world moves a lot more quickly these days.

The British Empire lasted for about 400 years, and the Soviet Empire lasted about 70 years.

As Yogi Berra said, "The future ain't what it used to be."

[Royal Observer]

23. I've always said

Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.
Never was.

[kineneb]

67. time is contracting

I've noticed that the relative length of empires from antiquity to the present seem to grow shorter and shorter in terms of years. As information travels faster so the length of an empire shortens. Just a thought. Your results may vary.

[gennifer6]

13. Been thinking about that a lot lately with China booming....

The American civilization has only been established for about two hundred years, we've seen how things change just in the past 30 years. Remember there was an East and West Germany not too long ago? What makes us think it can't happen here?

Welcome to the United States of China, thank you George Bush, maybe they'll give you a seat in the Parliament for your help.

[youngred]

14. It's true

Hegemony will end, the question is when it does and how would we give up dominance. Bush has decided we'll go kicking and screaming rather than peacefully accepting multi-polarity. My only hope is that we wake up in time to reverse course before it's too late. The talk of the demise of the American empire is premature, but that doesn't mean it won't happen, and probably in my lifetime

[MsTryska]

17. Y'all ever seen that bumper sticker "Drive it like you stole it?"

that's pretty much what bushco has done to this country.


treated it like a damn rental car.



as for the empire itself, yeah, i'd say it's in it's last days. maybe China will take the new top spot.

[gennifer6]

24. Geez, you're right, Caligula stole the election

and now drivesthe country like he did. Since the lease only goes for 8 years they can treat it like a rental.

We still have a chance of saving ourselves if we elect a inew ideology into the white house, but if not, I'm with you, China will be top dog, give it 10-20 years max

[MsTryska]

25. Yeah, sadly,

bushco has game and with the media in his pocket, i see no hope for a new ideology, until rome burns to the ground. not enough americans are seeing through the smokescreen.

[gennifer6]

28. But a lot can change in four years......

Caligula and his crew are like a leakly faucet. Drip....drip.....drip.....until the "smoking gun" emerges and America finds itself with NO CHOICE but to get rid of him. I really wish the international community would remove themselves from our ass and start taking action on their own. They called themselves the "Allies" in 1939.

[youngred]

32. It's broader than Bush

we've entered an era of decadance and envy from other powers. Unless America brings itself back from idle pursuits of pleasure and commercailism and starts paying attention and putting in the hard work this world requires we aren't going to hold power for many more decades

[gennifer6]

37. As much as I can't stand Michael Jackson

that otherwise crappy song "Man in the Mirror" makes a bit of sense. Like any other form of ignorance, it starts with changes on the homefront first....
you have a good observation

[MsTryska]

33. Well you might not have to wait too long for the Allies

to get back in the game....



i'm thinking Russia and China are getting pretty cozy at the moment....

[gennifer6]

36. I think everyone who's not within US borders is cozying up to each other

Russia and China are certainly becoming more flirtatious in their own right, though.....them against us would be terribly lethal.

[MsTryska]

38. Especially

if those "6-way talks with North Korea" aren't about disarming.




"the enemy of my enemy is my friend"

~Sun-Tzu

[reprobate]

66. And south america formed a new trading block,

....with china signing a big oil deal with venezuala. We will no longer be venezuala's big trader in oil. Chavez paying bush back for the attempted coups.

And cuba found some big oil reserves off its coast. Think we'll be getting any of that? No, china beat us to it again.

Thanks Mad George.

[Royal Observer]

50. The Palace Guard

mutinied on Caligula. He stabbed himself in the throat before they could get to him. Do ya' think some such will happen to Bush? I doubt it.

[txaslftist]

61. No Way...

Bush is too much of a candy-ass to stab himself.

[Royal Observer]

65. No one thought that Caligula would either.

But do you think the Palace Guard will mutiny?

[Cyrano]

45. I don't think China will have full hegemony.

India is coming on strong. They're training as many, if not more, engineers than we are. And let's not forget the European Union. A fully united Europe would be a tremendous economic force.

[minerva50]

22. Otto Spengler said it.

Before WWII, he published "The Decline of the West" (Die Untergang des Abendlandes) which said that Western culture was entering it's twilight period. He was a "private scholar" and his books have been picked apart by professional historians, but he was very widely read and discussed in the period between the wars. I don't know how much I buy into his theory of Cultures and their birth, blossoming and decline, but he said we've entered the period of decadence. We can do what we can to contribute to positive movements, but civilization will take its inevitable course.

[whosinpower]

26. Approaching its end? no

I think America is just now beginning to recognize itself as an Empire. Not a single empire has ever been conceived without bloodshed, strive and pain.....not one.

Will America prevail in its conquest attempts? Well, for the simple sake of being a peacelover antiwar person - I hope not...but not because I wish America to fail....but because I wish America would stand by its founding principles. Does that make any sense at all?

[radric]

30. I pity a world in which China or Russia...

is the dominant power.

[youngred]

31. The Europeans could give them a run

but the Chinese appear to be the future hegemon

[MsTryska]

34. Ya have to admit it would be pretty ironic

after reagan helping to end the cold war, and our steady move from to globalization from that point on, for a communist China to be able to come through as the shining star, and ultimate beneficiary of said globalization.

[Minstrel Boy]

39. Might I suggest that, from the perspective of

the colonial frontiers, there's not much to choose from between American, Russian or Chinese hegemony?

You can feel the world's hypothetical pain under the yoke of the Russians or Chinese, but knowing the crushing burden of American Empire beyond the Homeland, and the millions of lives it's taken, is another matter.

[indigobusiness]

63. It's clear that America is past its peak...

and this side of the bell curve is steep.

[Arugula Latte]

35. China is kicking our ass

Economically, we're circling the drain. When the oil runs out, *phppppt* that's it. I have a feeling we're going to feel some whoop-ass as the rest of the world retaliates against us for decades of hubris and arrogance and Reagan-Bush type presidents.

[gennifer6]

44. The rest of the class will finally gang up on the bully

and knock his head a few times on the blacktop, and there will be no "recess aides" to come to the rescue.

[Forkboy]

40. One can only hope

[Minstrel Boy]

41. If America is a "main sequence" empire, it's reached red giant stage.

When a main sequence star has exhausted its hydrogen - the fuel of its youth and middle age - it starts burning helium. It swells to be a monstrous red giant, consuming its satellites in near orbit. Its growth is not a sign of health, but of age and decline. And it is doomed to collapse in upon itself when sufficient mass is expended, and gravity overcomes its volume.

That's where I see the American Empire. It's burned through the fuel of its vital years and its "soft" coercive power, and is left with only its brute military strength. And its burning that, to stave off collapse. But collapse is inevitable.

Will it be a black hole or a white dwarf? That's the question upon which the fate of the world rests.

[youngred]

43. We still had a lot of soft power

but Bush has managed to burn it all off.

I very much like your analogy, the question now is will we go Supernova or collapse on ourselves.

[MsTryska]

54. hey!

isn't there a white dwarf in office right now?


i think his name is dopey.

[0007]

42. Nearing? We are the pariah of the world the rest is down hill.

[Cyrano]

46. Not necessarily. All of the previous empires were also hated by

the world, and although they no longer are in control, many have become admired democracies. Ancient Rome and Greece are no longer "hated empires" and even Germany has managed, to a tremendous degree, to put the barbarism of the Nazi era behind them.

Over the past couple of decades, we have displayed an arrogance and indifference to the world that has, for all practical purposes, been the equivalent of saying, "You don't like what we're doing? Go fuck yourself."

If somehow (assuming we can ever again get a fair election in this country) we can elect more enlightened executive and legislative branches of government, we may regain some iota of credibility.

To be blunt about this, as long as the current incarnation of the Republican party controls the levers of power, we are certainly on a downhill slope toward utter destruction.

[Tinoire]

47. Nearing? Have been trying to tell people this for years & that

our only hope was to gracefully transition while there was still time. Instead, we keep clinging to this dream that "the South will rise again".

Now, it's too late for graceful transition. It will be forced on us and it's going to hurt like a M-F.


Excellent article. Thanks.

Nominated for home page.

[DerekG]

48. Wonderful thread, with the exception of your WWII comments

World War II was as an imperialist a war as any other: the Japanese were cutting in on our action in places such as the Philippines and Indochina and we were left with the prospect of protecting our interests. We don't even deserve the lion's share of credit for the Third Reich's destruction: by the time we landed in Normandy, the Russians had defeated 70% of the German forces.

It could be argued that--with Hitler's defeat--the baton of fascism was passed to us, and our vaunted Cold War liberals, led by Truman, were fully complicit.

You are exceptionally intelligent, Cyrano--don't fall into that insipid "Greatest Generation" label; it's just a means to give militarism the air of nobility.

[Cyrano]

51. DerekG. Regarding "The Greatest Generation,"

these were people who grew up during the depression and then were called upon to fight the most horrible war (to that point) in history.

Their childhoods were stolen, and then they were asked to go fight against evils the nature of which most of them didn't understand.

Look back at pictures of the depression and photos of the grunts in WWII. These were people who lived through two decades that most of us today can't begin to grasp. They weren't into politics. They were into survival: economic in the '30s and physical in the 40's.

If this could not be called "The Greatest Generation," I don't know what your definition would be.

[kineneb]

69. We actually hires lots of "ex" Nazis post WWII

They were used by "intellgence" agencies because they were anti-communist. But they went behind their handlers' backs and fomented lots of neo-fascist movements, some in the Middle East. I have a book, somewhere in storage that discusses the US use of Nazi operatives after WWII.

Rome collapsed from within...over-extended in foreign battles, with rich boys who didn't want work, corrupt leaders...the barbarian slaves opened gates and let their Germanic relatives in. After that it was all downhill. Ah, history.

[Daybreaker]

52. The American Empire might be nearing its end.

But America isn't.

Maybe the empire has to end for us to progress as a civilization. I think we've got more to give to the world, but we need to do so from a somewhat humbled position in relation to where we are now.

Right now, our power exceeds our philosophical development. We aren't responsible enough to manage our destructive capabilities. The strength to shatter the world should only be held by compassionate people, and the simple fact is that America is not generating compassion.

We're like a drunk teenager with an overactive thyroid. We're juiced up on steroids and we're feeling the 'roid rage. On some level we still want to do the right thing, but that's buried deep underneath all those hormones in the beef we're eating to get that all-important dose of muscle-building protein.

That teenager is the biggest kid in the playground, with the biggest gang and the biggest friends and the biggest wallet. We rule the school. And we don't even know if there's anything outside the playground at all -- if there ever were any teachers, they seem to have sent us on an indefinite recess.

The fact that Bush is still in office hurts us really bad. We had our chance to reject this amoral imperialism and grow up a little, become more of a real big brother and less of a thug. We've shown, however, that either we wanted this madness or we're willing to put up with it.

Neither makes us look very good in the eyes of the teachers who, I think, are still watching us while we play.

[secedeeconomically]

53. I don’t buy into this whole "The Greatest Generation." BS

However, I do agree that its inevitable we will relegated to 2nd or 3rd place in the most powerful status soon enough.

[Cyrano]

55. Please read post #51.

[secedeeconomically]

58. One could make similar statements about any generation

Why not the generation that first colonized this county? Or the generation that created the technological revolution? Or the generation that fought in the Civil War. Listen I’m not trying to diminish their impact, but I find it hard when people use this superlatives "Greatest".

[Cyrano]

62. I don't know how old you are, or to which generation you belong.

In the '30s and 40s, many families (mine included) lived six or seven in one apartment. Nobody complained. That was just the way it was. All the adults had to work in order to pay the rent and provide food.

Then the war came. Some had to go, and others didn't because they had children. From time to time, we'd get a letter from a relative in Europe asking for help to get out, but there was very little my family could send them and nothing else we could do.

By the end of the war, almost every European relative I had was dead. And so were some of those with whom I lived with as a child. All they knew was that they slaved throughout the 30's to help us all to go on, and then they died in Europe, without ever fully understanding that they were fighting anything other than "evil."

Please, don't give me any lectures about "The Greatest Generation."

On edit: Try living the way my parents and grandparents did for two decades and then tell me again what you think of the word "Greatest."

On further edit: Yes, this is personal to me. And yes, I know that other generations have suffered at other times and places in history. But don't be too glib in putting down what you may not fully comprehend or have not experienced.

[kineneb]

70. My grandparents were slightly older

and spent the first years of the depression living in a tent-house on my great-grandparent's farm. Heating was by wood stove. And they thought themselves lucky to have that.

[durutti]

56. Iraq will decide.

The relative economic position of the U.S. has been in decline for decades. Today, the U.S. faces competition from the EU, China, and Russia.

Iraq was invaded to gain control of the oil reserves there. By installing friendly governments there and throughout the region, it gains control of a resource that is depended on heavily by its competitors.

If the U.S. is defeated in Iraq, it would be a tremendous setback to American imperialism, and quite possibly spark revolt in U.S. client states throughout the region. The situation in Palestine is also quite important.

We must support resistance to U.S. imperialism in the region, and we must demand that the troops be brought home. Then, perhaps, we can build a new society.

[txaslftist]

59. I HOPE SO!

Geez...

who wants to be part of an Empire, anyway?

[PA Democrat]

60. Author Kevin Phillips says yes.

Read his book Wealth and Democracy and you can reach no other conclusion. We are following right along the path of the fall of former world powers.

[stackhouse]

68. hi guys just popping in

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

[Cobalt Violet]

72. Yes we are nearing the end of America as we know it.

:(

[The Zanti Regent]

73. America no longer exists.

The Jesusistas overthrew it on 12/13/2000.