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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 09:12 AM
Original message
Stocks give better return than Social Security? Not necessarily...
Another bit of ammunition for fighting the Bush Putsch's attempts to save destroy Social Security, from the Christian Science Monitor:

One man's retirement math: Social Security wins

By David R. Francis | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
---
For 45 years, the defense-industry analyst paid into the system until his retirement in 1994. But with all the recent hoopla over reform, Mr. Logue, a Massachusetts Institute of Technology graduate, decided to go back and check his own records. Would he have done better investing his money than the bureaucrats at the Social Security Administration? He recorded all the payroll taxes he paid into the system (including the matching amount from his employer), tracked down the return the Social Security Trust Fund earned for each of the 45 years, and then compared the result with what he would have gotten had he been able to invest the same amount of payroll tax money over the same period in the Dow Jones Industrial Average (including dividends).

To his surprise, the Social Security investment won out: $261,372 versus $255,499, a difference of $5,873. It's an astonishing finding. The DJIA represents blue-chip stocks. Social Security invests in US Treasury bonds. Over long periods of time, stocks have consistently outperformed bonds. So, you would think that Logue's theoretical stock investments from 1950 to 1994 would have surely outpaced the return on government bonds. The fact that they didn't illustrates one of the hard truths about stock investing: Timing matters.
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The debate hinges considerably on what people want their retirement system to be. Social Security has always been an insurance program. It was never intended as an investment scheme. So everyone - retirees, the disabled, widows, and orphans - receive guaranteed monthly income. The "return" on their Social Security contributions depends largely on how long they live. Those in their 90s have enjoyed superb returns. Those who don't live as long benefit less. Private accounts, by contrast, involve far more variability, both sides agree. Individuals who enter and exit the market at the right times would undoubtedly do better under privatization. But under Britain's privatized pension system, so many retirees are doing so poorly at this moment that a commission warned this fall that widespread poverty among the elderly may be returning, which could require massive new government spending.
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There are other problems with private accounts. Administration expenses of the present Social Security system are minuscule compared with the size of the benefits provided. The Bush administration so far has provided no details on its private accounts plan. But if these are handled by Wall Street, the fees could be sizable, dissipating some of the return from investing in stocks. Logue takes no account of such expenses in his analysis. Further, administrative costs and difficulties for private business could be large as companies, big and small, try to deduct the right amount from a payroll and put it into a private account in a timely fashion. A study by the Congressional Research Service (CRS) notes some complexities: 650,000 employers go out of business or start new businesses each year. More than 4 million employers have 10 or fewer employees, often having record-keeping problems and errors. About 12 million to 15 million individuals are self-employed and presumably would have to send money directly to a private account.

----- full article-----
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1227/p01s03-cogn.html
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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 09:22 AM
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1. Very interesting.
In 1994 there was still considerable headroom in the market. But after the 90's stock market boom and with current valuations as high as they are I'm not convinced there's much left.

Thanks for the link!
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74dodgedart Donating Member (513 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 09:27 AM
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2. What if privatized SS dollars end up being invested
in controversial companies like a company that does stem-cell research, or a company that does business with an unpopular country, or a company that supports unpopular political candidates...Will the gov't step in and force people to change their investments. Are 'red states' going to limit 'blue states' investment options and vice-versa ?

Nobody talks about the potential for conflict of interest ina a gov't managed investment system.
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pnb Donating Member (959 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Why would that be discussed?
That already happens now with our tax money. The concept would be no different under that scenario.
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wishlist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
4. Current system gives lower earners a much better deal than private accts
Edited on Thu Dec-30-04 10:28 AM by wishlist
A close relative of mine who worked at sporadic low paying jobs and self-employment just started drawing nearly $600 per month at age 62 based solely on her own earnings record. We looked at her SS statement and she only paid in a total of about $12000 (including the employer contribution) in SS taxes during the past 40 years. There is no way any private accounts could boost that kind of return for low income individuals. If she had invested all of it privately she would be lucky to get a monthly annuity of even $200 to $300 per month.
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mbossman2 Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
5. Issue with the article
I have one big issue in the referenced article:

the money in the "social security account" is not really his. If he were to die unexpectedly 5 years into his retirement (not an unlikely occurence), assuming that he was paid out @$2500/month, the remaining $110K (or so) would disappear into the federal bureacracy. As opposed to the 2nd scenario, there would be $105K (or so) that could be passed onto his heirs, allowing them to be better off. Isn't that worth a $5K delta in value?

Is building wealth such a bad thing?

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idiosyncratic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. No one ever thinks of the chance of disability before building wealth
An acquaintance just rolled his BMW Z3 and is now a quadraplegic.

Did he "build wealth" before that happened? Probably not.

Will he be getting SS payments for the rest of his life? Yes

Having that security: Priceless!
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74dodgedart Donating Member (513 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Good point..
The Repubs want to take the "Security" out of Social Security..

I have a co-worker who had to adopt her granddaughter after the little girls mother died. She is able to get child support help through the mother's SS.
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74dodgedart Donating Member (513 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. The stock market isn't a money tree...
"Building Wealth" isn't guaranteed...

Social Security is supposed to provide a safety net for retirees, disabled, etc....

401-k's are for building wealth..
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Sara Beverley Donating Member (989 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
6. What? For one or two years or the rest of you life?
Nothing is more comforting than knowing you have the steady income of your social security no matter how small if you have to use it to survive.
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