Should our Marines shoot looters and criminals in tsunami affected areas?

[NNN0LHI]

I don't like it, but I vote yes. Order needs to be restored as soon as possible to these areas for the good of all. The sooner order is restored the less people will die. This is one of them times when unavoidably we need a strong military whether we like having one or not. Good thing we got one too. Good thing someone has one. Our soldiers will probably save many lives over the next few weeks. My hat is off to them. I appreciate all they are doing for these people.

Don

[Goldom]

1. is there no option

between "let them go" and "shoot them"?? What about.. you know.. stopping them without killing them?

[smbolisnch]

2. I agree......

Killing them? That shouldn't even be an option....why would you just kill looters? :shrug:

[BrklynLiberal]

13. Right. I would say there is an entire world of options between those two.

[illflem]

41. In Sri Lanka

the military is stripping the looters of their clothes and letting them go.

[oneighty]

3. Well when did

being in a foreign country ever deter our military from killing the citizens there. Invited or not.

Kill them to save them.

180

[TheKingfish]

4. Any people are wondering why

Some countries don't want trigger happy IDF running around 'restoring order'. What a ridiculous poll.

[mr blur]

5. Did I miss something here?

Is this like "Team America - The World's Police"? Don't send aid, send killers?

[Sanity Claws]

6. It's not our place to police the world

[sushi]

7. I see

Just like they're in Iraq "for the good of all?" If they go to help, then that's what they should do, help, not kill!

[canuckforpeace]

8. Why not apply the same logic in your own country then?

Just allow the police to shoot people commiting a crime instead of arresting them. Sheesh. :eyes:

[catbert836]

I see where this is going

There's no option but to shoot them or let them go, eh? So that creates an environment of either anarchy or martial law. You can't just detain them, you have to shoot them.
It would make about as much sense to let police in this country, after 9/11, shoot people who steal... but what do I know. It's ridiculous to shoot people when you can just stop them with tear gas, pepper spray or whatever you've got on hand... :eyes:

[Sandpiper]

9. I had no idea that shooting was part of humanitarian aid

I know it might be hard to believe since it's not the current American view, but it really is possible to intervene in a crisis without resorting to bloodshed.

Don't you think there's been enough death in the tsunami affected areas already?

[FloridaPat]

10. There would be trouble telling who were the looters and who

were owners looking for their stuff. I think there's been enough dead there. There is still the problem of disease. I don't think these people need to be afraid of getting shot by the wonderful people that brought the world 100,000 civilians dead in Iraq. Or 4 million dead in Vietman, etc etc. Can't we do one thing without looking like cowboys and insensitive triggermen?

[Sandpiper]

14. Shoot first and ask questions later

Is the American way.

[Eagle_Eye]

27. That is all we F**KING need right now

The world thinks we are stingy. The world thinks we are cowboys. Then we go shooting people while on a humanitarian mission.
But I know bush will carefully evaluate all the options and pick the worst possible one.

[cali]

11. What a reprehensible suggestion

U.S. troops are there to provide aid. Period. They have absolutely no mandate to provide law enforcement. And why would you even bring this up? I'm sure there's some lawlessness, but what the fuck is there to loot.? The tsunami wiped out whole towns and major parts of cities.

[SouthernDaisy]

75. reprehensible is right!

One thing that triggered such a thought was that something I saw on CNN. A police chief of some Sri Lanka town was using clean drinking water, provided by an aid truck, to wash out debris from the floors of his house!!!!

People will be dying from lack of water and to have this uncaring monster using clean drinking water to clean the floors of his house is reprehensible too. My 1st instinct was that this s.o.b. should've been shot because his actions could indeed cause more deaths.

But even shooting him would have been wrong....I think.

[ogradda]

12. no.

it's not our job to go to another country and start shooting people.

[Undercover Owl]

143. wait...hold on..

it isn't our job to go to another country and start shooting people? :evilfrown:

A lot of people sure think it is!

[Solly Mack]

15. No

They should work with local authorities and within the laws of the country they are assisting...maybe detain and turn over those caught looting or partaking in other criminal acts....but shooting someone should be a last alternative and only with good cause. Looting ain't good cause.

[Scurrilous]

16. No.

I think our Marines should shoot the looters and criminals in Iraq. Start with the guys listed here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2890240

[Cuban_Liberal]

17. What Marines are you talking about?

I've seen nothing about our Marines being on the ground there, much less shooting anyone.

[NNN0LHI]

20. US Marines

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200501/s1275110.htm

Marines join Aceh relief efforts
By Anne Barker in Jakarta

Thousands of United States marines and air force personnel have arrived off the coast of Indonesia's Aceh province to deliver emergency aid through the devastated province.

The aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln, which has 12 Seahawk helicopters on board, is now stationed off the coast near Banda Aceh.

Four more US Navy ships are nearby, all with around 4,000 military personnel.

The helicopters have begun flights over much of Aceh province, dropping emergency food, medicines and other aid to victims of the tsunami disaster.

more

http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=7&id=323704

U.S. to send up to 1,500 Marines to Sri Lanka for relief work


Sunday, January 2, 2005 at 07:17 JST
COLOMBO — The United States will deploy up to 1,500 Marines on a single ship also carrying 20 helicopters to assist in Sri Lanka's tsunami relief operations, a senior U.S. military officer told reporters here Saturday.

"It's a fluid situation and we don't know the exact requirements yet," Col Tom Collins of the U.S. Marine Corp said. "Our initial plan is to have up to 1,500 Marines with one offshore platform for about 20 helicopters and one hovercraft." The first contingent of 200 Marines will fly to Sri Lanka from a U.S. base on Okinawa on Sunday, U.S. officials said. (Kyodo News)

more

[Cuban_Liberal]

22. Neither article says anything about Marines shooting anyone. n/t

[NNN0LHI]

25. I never indicated that our Marines have shot anyone in this poll/thread

I was only seeing these and other reports of heavy looting in all areas coming in. And usually the combination of looting and Marines mean either the looting stops or someone gets shot. I was curious on people opinion of the worst case scenario if it comes to that. Gosh. I never had to explain so much stuff after beginning a poll before.

Don

[Cuban_Liberal]

26. My problem with it was that it presented a false dilemma.

Our Navy and Marine are providing logistical support only, and the question is sort of misleading in it's wording, Don. Our Marines won't be ashore providing law-enforcement type assistance, unless asked to do so by the governments in question.

[NNN0LHI]

34. I have already seen video of US soldiers ashore Cuban_Liberal

Not sure where? But it was one of the effected areas. I agree, it is a false dilemma, at the present time. Things could change though. Things may have already changed already and we just haven't been told about it yet? Hope not. But it would not surprise me. Take care and see you later.

Don

[Cuban_Liberal]

39. Peace, Don.

I've seen a few accompanying the relief helos, too, but no others.

:hi:

[Bouncy Ball]

89. Soldiers or Marines?

They are different....

[CHIMO]

52. Haven't Seen

Anything yet about looting.
However, I would seriously question WTF looting means when 150,000 people are reportedly dead with the possibility of many more.
To me looting is taking something that is not yours when society has defined what belongs to you and what belongs to others. I don't think that there is anyone standing there saying this is mine and no one else has any right to it.
I think you philosophy needs to be re-examined taking into consideration the basis for having laws, who makes the laws and why the majority want the laws.

[Sir Craig]

18. Stop it, you all are making me cry (end sarcasm)

Maybe it's the conservative voice in me that I admit to having every once in a while, but I feel absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for anyone (such as looters) who would take advantage of such an enormous tragedy to prey upon the helpless.

I understand that many here are against violence -- hell, that's an incredibly honorable trait and one I seek to embrace every day -- but I have to say there comes a time when we have to stop viewing everyone as human beings and see some of them as the animated trash they are.

They feel no pity or remorse when they take advantage of such suffering, and for that they lose all rights regarding any kind of mercy and/or compassion I might have for them. And if that doesn't sit well with others here, that's fine too -- just do me the favor of placing yourself in the victims' position and wonder how you would feel if someone came along to deprive you of whatever you had left of your former life, simply to enrich their own.

[cali]

28. WTF are you talking about?

Our armed forces are there to provide aid, and as I noted above there's not a whole hell of a lot to loot. Hundreds, if not thousands of towns were literally washed away. Nothing left but some foundations. As far as viewing some people as animated trash, that's a perfectly disgusting sentiment.

[Sir Craig]

84. Okay, let me help you along here...

The animated trash I was talking about was the looters, not the poor suffering victims. If you think that is a "perfectly disgusting sentiment", then you probably should think about registering for sainthood.

And just because there isn't much left, doesn't mean that some scum isn't out there looking to make whatever's left his or her own.

[miss_kitty]

113. who is supposed to decide if it's a looter

or someone collecting their own stuff or some abandoned necessities? What if Mr. Snap-Judgement Marine makes a mistake and kills so guy carrying off his own stuff? too bad so sad?

[NNN0LHI]

31. I have...

placed myself in the victims' position and wondered how I would feel if someone came along to try and deprive my family of whatever we had left of our former life, simply to enrich their own after a natural disaster such as this. It wouldn't make feel too good. I would be real happy to see the Marines.

And that is not a conservative voice of yours talking. Thats about as liberal as it gets. Hope I didn't offend you?

Don

[Sir Craig]

83. Why would you offend me?

That was my whole point -- I'd welcome anyone who would save me and mine from any kind of criminal activity while I was suffering as these people are.

I think too many people failed to understand what it was I was trying to say...

[smbolisnch]

37. WTF? Where is your compassion?

I don't know of the looting that is/isn't going on, but I do know that people have not eaten or had fresh water in a week....
So tell me, what do you suggest these people do?

[Sir Craig]

85. If you'd read my reply, you'd know where my compassion lies...

...and that is with the victims. I'm not talking about people scrounging in order to survive, I'm talking about people robbing corpses of valuables, or homes of whatever remains in them that didn't belong to them.

That is the definition of a looter, and if you feel they deserve any kind of compassion, all power to you.

[Solon]

88. How can you tell the difference?

is it just shoot first and ask questions later?

[smbolisnch]

91. I did read your reply, and I just reread it.

I still don't see that point shining through, like I am apparently supposed to. Sorry, I don't see it. :shrug:

[Sandpiper]

47. Please name the country that asked us to come and start shooting

That's right, nobody asked us to do that.

Guess you're just another trigger happy jackass.

[Sir Craig]

86. Oh, stop it! The name calling is wounding my delicate feelings!

I'm guessing that you view the military as nothing more than a bunch of "trigger happy jackasses." I'm sorry that you have such a limited view of the military, and that you think we enjoy shooting people simply because they are different from us.

Guess again, honcho: we abhor violence, because we understand better than most that violence begets violence, and do whatever we can to make sure it doesn't have to happen. But in those instances when it is clear that lives require protection (either those of the victims or our own), or when I see some trash preying on the helplessness of others, then I'll do whatever it takes stop the perpetrator(s).

And by the way, no one has done any shooting, so you may want to think about getting off your high horse and try viewing things a little more objectively instead of with these extreme knee-jerk reactions.

[Sandpiper]

94. You never answered my first question

Which one of the tsunami affected countries asked the U.S. military to come over and play homicidal sheriff?

And spare me the sanctimony about abhorring violence, when in the very same paragraph you give your personal approval to dispensing frontier style justice on "trash preying on the helplessness of others."

Well, thanks for the bravado Wyatt Earp, but I think there's been enough death over their already. We don't need you and your trusty peacemaker adding to the body count.

Seems like your abhorrence of violence is rather limited.

[Peak_Oil]

49. No pity for looters?

I've heard some interviews with people who lost everything in the Wave, and don't have anything but a t-shirt and a pair of jeans. If they're out there stealing a pair of SHOES or some fucking FOOD or something, I don't think that makes them animated trash. Calm down, guys. Property rights are somewhat important, but have a little mercy.

[NNN0LHI]

50. I was more thinking about a convoy of food, water and medicine...

...destined for a town of several hundred men, women, and children. If it gets to its destination the people will live. On the other hand if a group of 5 or 6 thugs stop the convoy, take what they want, and then trash the rest the people will starve. What should be done to prevent that type of thing from occurring??

Don

[miss_kitty]

53. It took you a while to come up with that scenario

I would imagine these thugs of which you speak would be armed. That would make them more along the lines of hijackers. Attempting to mess with armed Marines.

Self defence? well duh. what do you think?

Why do you think when you use the word 'looters' people on this board would think 'hijackers?'

[NNN0LHI]

57. Actually it did not take me a while to come up with that scenario

That is the exact scenario I was thinking of when I began this poll about "looters and criminals". And it wouldn't be self defense if the Marines were to come up on something like this this occurring either. It would be protecting the weakest from the "looters and criminals".

Don

Edit: Here is the article that gave me the idea for that scenerio:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1504&ncid=1504&e=2&u=/afp/20050101/ts_afp/asiaquakesrilanka_050101182938

<snip>The Tamil rebels said relief was slow in getting to their areas. Similar complaints were received from the remote areas of the island's south where some people had begun looting relief supplies.

However, the law and order situation had improved in the region after initial reports of stealing of valuables from dead bodies and extortion to return bodies snatched from make-shift morgues.

[CHIMO]

58. Some People

And societies describe criminals as those being convicted of a crime.

[Solon]

60. Those aren't looters, they are RAIDERS...

what you are saying is that basically, a criminal is a criminal, all penalty is death. When in reality, there is a world of difference between an armed robber and a pickpocket.

[miss_kitty]

61. why would you think that people on this board would think you meant

'hijackers' when you said 'looters' Here, when we see pictures of people accused of looting, it's people stealing shit out of fixed sites. And I think the posts on the thread back up my assertion here. People who have been posting to this thread have been posting as if by 'looters' you mean people picking up stuff laying around in the rubble, my first post included. 'Criminals' is not specific at all. Do you expect people to read your mind, or extrapolate to the same thoughts you have with limited information?

I have NEVER seen people who pull convoys over for the purpose of theft called 'looters' That type of theft is 'hijacking.'

And a 'self-defence' claim covers protecting innocents who are in imminent danger.

Why the big piss-take, dude?

[NNN0LHI]

64. Why don't you give it a brake? Take a deep breath. Feel better now? n/t

[miss_kitty]

67. no need for condescension-it's not an effective tool for intelligent

discourse. Since you offer none...

I see you really haven't answered any of the questions I have asked or many questions asked of you by other posters. That speaks to you not really knowing how to express yourself in a cogent manner. That's ok. It takes practice.
And I don't need you to suggest I need to take a break. As an adult, I can make that determination myself.

BTW I understand this is just an internet board. So no worries. I was just surprised to see a "Let the Military Shoot the Thieves and Criminals" post on a progressive board.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

99. huh? what are you talking about? n/t

[GodHelpUsAll2]

127. I agree with you

to a certain extent. Looting for the sake of stealing is terribly wrong. Do I think someone should be shot for it? Probably not. But then there are about a million different scenarios so I can not say 100% one way or the other. However, in the case of the Tsunami victims. Has anyone stopped to think about what you yourself might do if you were suddenly in a situation where you, your children, your elderly parents (if they are lucky enough to have survived) were in a "survival" situation? If it were me, and I was suddenly in that situation, I can say with 100% certainty I would turn to looting if it appeared to be my only option. And those people have gone over a week with virtually no aid. So you tell me, what would you do in that situation? That is what people need to ask themselves before silly suggestions of shooting looters.

[masaka___]

19. Haven't enough people died already?

STOP.

[malaise]

23. Looting?

Have you really looked at these countries since this catastrophe - there is nothing to loot.
These are peaceful people in their own countries. Someone better tell that to the marines before they make themselves more unpopular.

[Tinoire]

51. Food.... jewelry from corpses, safes, luggage

It's tragic but that's what I read... Bad elements had their dream come true... :(

The Tamil rebels said relief was slow in getting to their areas. Similar complaints were received from the remote areas of the island's south where some people had begun looting relief supplies.
http://www.turkishpress.com/world/news.asp?id=050101165747.ka5yk6kw.xml

===

Food Shortages In Indonesia

Tsunami survivors in hard-hit areas of Indonesia are complaining about a lack of food.

Tons of rice, water, tarps and medical supplies have begun arriving in some decimated coastal cities, but there are reports of looting and fears of aid being stolen.

"The scale of the disaster is just too big," said Andi Mallarengen, spokesman for Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono.

He said that while officials can bring in aid and food, more manpower is needed to distribute the supplies.

(Snip)
http://www.wral.com/news/4039558/detail.html

==

For rubble workers and looters, pickings are rich
By Ellen Connolly
Phuket
January 2, 2005


(snip)

The looting was worse in the devastated Khoalak area, north of Phuket.

There, thieves disguised as police or rescue workers were stealing luggage and hotel safes.

Lars Busck, of Denmark, who owns a guesthouse at Patong Beach, said it would take years for the tourism industry to recover.

"The season is gone," he said. "This place smells like dead people.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/Asia-tsunami/For-rubble-workers-and-looters-pickings-are-rich/2005/01/01/1104345036375.html?oneclick=true

===

(India)

Panic-stricken residents and inmates of a relief centre were seen rushing home last evening following a rumour that the sea was surging again.

They were not even responding to queries as to why they were panicky and rushing.

It eventually turned out to be a rumour.

Anti-socials and thieves seemed to be having a free hand. Reports are galore about thieves dismembering the body and looting the gold and silver ornaments from the bodies of the tsunami victims.

Responding to this, District collector Veera Shanmughamoni said till additional police personnel were deployed to enhance security, the locals could form small groups and engage in security of their environs, which would have the backing of the police.

http://www.webindia123.com/news/m_details.asp?newscode=86927&catcode=ENG3&subcatcode=

========
Meanwhile.... Reinforcing the image of the ugly Westerner


Tourists Ignore Tsunami Destruction, Work On Tans
Meanwhile, Desperate Victims Mob U.S. Choppers In Indonesia

Ignoring the trash and destruction, tourists are returning to the tsunami-ravaged resort area of Thailand.

Residents say it's mindboggling and infuriating, but perhaps necessary to help the Thai resort island of Phuket recover from the tsunamis.

Foreign tourists are frolicking again on the beach, riding jet skis and posing for snapshots. And some visitors are ignoring the garbage, dead plants and leaves to work on their tans.

http://www.wral.com/news/4039558/detail.html

[American Tragedy]

21. I think this is a false dilemma.

It is also impossible to answer, since it shouldn't be merely our prerogative. Whatever we do should be in accordance with the wishes of local authorities. The American military has no business acting as law enforcement in a foreign country when it is ostensibly there to assist in recovery efforts.

[miss_kitty]

24. well, that certainly is a cost cutting plan-

Judge, jury AND executioner all rolled into one.
What if the crap they are picking up is their own? Who (besides the shooter) is making the determination of 'criminal' (your category)? What, besides looting, constitutes a criminal act in this situation? So you think theft is worthy of the death penalty?

This is a sarcastic thread, right?

[reorg]

106. sarcasm and fascism

Reading the opening post I immediately realized the sarcasm, and smiled, wondering who could top the hilarious suggestion that there may be "looters" who had to be "shot", and by US Marines, of all people ...

Reading further down the thread I realized with great surprise that most responders did not seem to get it, and I began to wonder about the general state of mind of US citizens ... seems like most would expect such outrageous musings to be taken seriously!

While I still believe that the poster is goading us on -- isn't it interesting that even on this presumably liberal and enlightened board you have no trouble to find people who would justify -- in an act of anticipatory obedience -- something that amounts to an act of war in remote countries by the US? Who would pre-emptively justify the murder of foreign citizens by the US military? If this mindset not only dominates the forces in power, but also settles in sizable parts of the opposition, there is nothing left that a fascist government would need to accomplish.

[diamond14]

29. bush* should have sent aid the NEXT DAY....waiting 6 days while

bush* and his minions planned to re-enter our Vietnam-era airbase in Thailand is criminal....

bushites KNEW that those delays would PANIC the survivors...it's not rocket science.....so now, bushites have met TWO goals: killing more of those Hindu and Muslim non-Christians, brown-skinned sub-humans AND re-opening the airbase, which bush* is already using for his private TORTURE of Iraqis, and will now make a full blown operation, much closer than Diego Garcia, which must have been damaged in the tsunami.....

[johnclif]

43. Bush DID send aid the next day...

...it just takes a while for it to get there.

The USS Abraham Lincoln spent all day (Jan 1) off the coast of Indonesia ferrying supplies to afflicted areas and surveying the region for damage, etc. That ship was in Japan last week. It can't be picked up and dropped down, so someone got it moving very quickly just after the tsunami hit to ensure it could get to where it is as quickly as it did.

Re the airbase, the US has been flying in supplies for days and US and Australian military personnel have been organizing them and getting them ready to distribute throughout the region once helicopters arrived. They're there now, and stuff is starting to happen.

We don't gain any converts to Democratic causes by slandering the people (the military, our daughters and sons, our husbands and wives, our mothers and fathers, our sisters and brothers) who are out there delivering this aid, working in unbearable conditions (AP reports that the airbase workers are living in the mud, being chewed on by insects -- they have no living facilities there, and living on MREs).

The people at USAID aren't Bush appointees, they're career civil servants who really want to do a good job (and I bet most of them voted for Kerry). They got there as soon as they possibly could, surveyed the region, and reported back to Washington on what they found. If only 10,000 people had been killed (as first reported), then a moderate response was warranted. As the week went on and we discovered that over 120,000 people were killed, the response has increased tenfold (from $35 million to $350 million, plus resources like ships and aircraft and thousands of US personnel). Do you think those Kerry-supporting USAID workers would intentionally harm the tsunami survivors to make Bush look bad? Do you want them asking for way more money than they really thought they needed? Do you want our government spending $500 million where $50 million would have been sufficient (in the original estimate of 10,000 dead)?

Give the devil his due. You may disagree with many of Bush's policies, just as Republicans disagreed with many of Clinton's policies, but Bush is no more the AntiChrist than Clinton was. It was wrong for Republicans to demonize Clinton and accuse him of the sleaziest motives, and it's wrong for us to do the same to Bush.

[diamond14]

44. whoa.....so DUer's better stop "slandering the military".....

and it is wrong of us to "accuse bush* of the sleaziest motives".....


OMG OMG OMG OMG

:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:

[fujiyama]

46. Hmmm

I smell toast burning...

Do you ;)

[Solly Mack]

48. Oh fuck Bush and don't tell people not to speak their opinion on the

military.

My husband is military and he knows Bush is full of shit. He doesn't consider it slander when people tell the TRUTH about Bush or the military.

[shanti]

30. hell no

it's not our country!

[reorg]

32. how come

you even pose that question?

OF COURSE the Marines must shoot them criminals, that's what they're for.

Says the CFR:

"Is Indonesia a haven for terrorists?
Yes. Indonesia, the world’s most populous Muslim county, is a vast archipelago with porous maritime borders, a weak central government, separatist movements, corrupt officials, a floundering economy, and a loosely regulated financial system—all characteristics which make it fertile ground for terrorist groups"

http://www.cfrterrorism.org/havens/indonesia.html

and the "Institute for the Analysis of Global Security" warns us:

"Tension mounting in Indonesia's oil rich province
Indonesia's president Megawati Sukarnoputri put the oil rich Aceh province in the northwestern region of Indonesia under martial law giving green light for a major military assault against separatist rebels after peace talks in Tokyo collapsed. The government said the martial law decree would be effective for six months, but could be extended if required. Jakarta had ordered the rebels to drop their demand for independence and agree to give up 60 percent of their weapons or face one of the country's biggest military assaults.
The four million residents of the province led by 5,000 fighters of the Free Aceh Movement (GAM) refuse to accept Indonesian sovereignty over Aceh. During the past 10 years, more than 6,000 people have been killed in fighting in Aceh between the rebels and government forces.
Aceh's population is staunchly Muslim. The rebels have declared that once they gain independence they would declare an Islamic republic far more conservative than Indonesia's current regime. Instability in Aceh increases the threat to oil transportation in the region. Aceh lies along the Strait of Malacca where 40% of the world's shipping passes. More than 50% of Japan's oil is delivered through the straits. Collusion between the rebels and terrorist groups could disrupt Indonesia's oil production and seriously threaten international trade and global economy.

http://www.iags.org/es052103.html#aceh


So I guess the Supreme Commander has finally determined that it's time to restore order.

[reorg]

45. lucky streak?

Just realized that the most affected area in Sri Lanka is also strategically important for the US:

Asia Times, 7 Jan 2003:

>> US closes in on South Asia's 'strategic jewel'
By Rahul Bedi

NEW DELHI - The United States is looking to India, its newfound strategic ally, to help it covertly expand its vital naval influence in South Asia. And the US also wants India's help in containing China's increasing sway in the Indian Ocean.

To achieve these twin aims, the US's covetous eyes are on the eastern Sri Lankan port of Trincomalee as a staging point for its naval assets stationed in and around its Diego Garcia base in the Indian Ocean.

To gain access to the "strategic jewel" that is Trincomalee, one of the world's biggest natural deep harbors, Washington has "persuaded" India to step in as its proxy to extend its influence over the port without overtly arousing suspicion of superpower hegemony.

To make this move possible, the US, as part of establishing its long-term presence in Asia, has successfully pressured the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) - who have been fighting for nearly two decades for an independent homeland - to persevere in their peace talks with the Sri Lankan government.

Located on the busy East-West shipping route stretching from the Suez Canal to the Malacca Straits, Trincomalee "controls" the Indian Ocean.

... <<

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/EA07Df02.html


>>

Trincomalee
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Trincomalee is a port city on the northeast coast of Sri Lanka.

...

Trincomalee lies in the region of Sri Lanka where most of the population belongs to the Tamil ethnic group, and are Hindus by religion, in contrast to the island's majority group, which are ethnic Sinhalese and Buddhists. After Sri Lanka became independent in 1948, tension between the two groups intensified - culminating with the LTTE insurgency - with the heaviest fighting taking place in and around the city. A cease-fire was negotiated in 2002, but Trincomalee remains underdeveloped and impoverished even by Sri Lankan standards.

...

Trincomalee was one of the cities hardest hit by the tsunami caused by the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake on December 26, 2004. <<

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trincomalee

[timtom]

102. I hope you don't mind, but I

cut and pasted this post (with your name on it) to another thread just above this one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2893658

It's called "Tinfoil hats or better to open..."

I felt that the two elements together create a synergy that might have been missed otherwise.

<Edited for stupid typing error>

[reorg]

109. thanks, I do not mind at all

Some complementary info from Aljazeera yesterday:

>> ...

The presence of foreign troops on Indonesian soil is a sensitive issue. The nation with the largest Muslim population on earth, Indonesia was a staunch Cold War ally of the US. The collapse of the Suharto regime in 1999 introduced a new era of openness within Indonesia and public criticism of both the new government and the US has grown.

Post-9/11 American foreign policy in the Middle East has been a lightning rod for criticism around the Muslim world and Indonesia is no exception.

While many of the country's estimated 200 million Muslims practice a brand of Islam infused with pre-Islamic Buddhist and Hindu beliefs, the population is overwhelmingly opposed to the American intervention in Iraq. ...

<<

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/4A0A0C42-C6C4-42A8-8B5D-5BAC00C99BA2.htm

Seems this catastrophe is a god-send for the US military. If they play nice and handle it well, they may be able to establish a military base in Sumatra and get a long-coveted sea port in Sri Lanka.



on edit: article on conflict Sumatra



>>

Aceh: In the Shadow of Iraq
by Leah C. Wells

...

The gas-rich area of northwestern Sumatra houses a huge Exxon-Mobil gas field which is at the heart of the controversy. Acehnese universally claim that revenues from natural resources found in Aceh are distributed unequally to the benefit of the Indonesian government.

To complicate matters, the Exxon-Mobil plant is guarded by the Indonesian military which, according to human rights groups, receives upwards of $100,000 per month for security services from the corporation. In a dual role, the TNI forces is massacring civilians while protecting the interests of multi-national enterprise.

The TNI is using U.S.-made military equipment in Aceh that it acquired prior to the U.S. Congressional ban on military sales, according to Human Rights Watch. While currently not supplying the Indonesian military with weapons, last year the House and Senate Appropriations Committees voted to restart the International Military Education and Training for Indonesia akin to the training that Latin American soldiers receive at the School of the Americas at Ft. Benning, GA. ...

<<

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0528-08.htm

[blackcat77]

33. Looters are the scum of the earth

I have no sympathy for any of them.

[Solon]

59. That's an awfully broad statement...

If your town was devastated by natural disaster, and you had the option of rummaging through a devastated grocery store, or watch your kids starve, I assume, since you aren't scum, you will let them starve?

[0007]

65. Beautifully put Solon!

[DoNotRefill]

69. Ummm....the law recognizes a difference between....

looting for items necessary for subsistence, and looting, say, jewelry and wallets from the dead.

Generally, somebody seen rummaging through the pockets of a corpse isn't looking for food or water.

The big question is why would US Marines BE there in the first place in a security role?

[Solon]

73. He wasn't talking about law...

he was talking about order through force, basically that is what the poll was about. You cannot have law without civil authority, not if you want it to be fair and equitable. Also, yes there is a difference, but it can be smaller than you think. Especially if gratuities are required to get food, then yes stealing jewelry or money from corpses, while wrong, may be justifiable at the moment. This is why we have courts of law in the first place.

[DoNotRefill]

80. I think you're stretching it.....

with the "we looted the corpse to buy food" thing...

[Solon]

82. Why would it be a stretch...

I'm not saying that it is an IDEAL situation, but it is definately possible that many people are in such dire straits as to contemplate that as a way to alleviate starvation.

[Deja Q]

121. Everyone's a looter. It's a matter of definition.

Political leaders loot our trust.

Corporate leaders loot our wallets and economically assassinate their "competition".

Shareholders are looters; they prefer to see money coming to them no matter what the CEOs do.

There are hundreds of examples, but my point is clear.

[shance]

35. Why would you ask such an arrogant , dehumanizing question?

Do you often barge into someone elses country and start playing genocidal sheriff?

Atleast through the implications and certainly for you to pose this question after this Administration is responsible for the murder of thousands and thousands of Iraqis ON THEIR SOIL.

ITs NOT OUR COUNTRY OR OUR PROPERTY IS IT?????


Wake up to what an insensitive harsh question that was.

[itzamirakul]

36. How can you tell a looter from..

someone who is seeking clothing or materials for shelter or taking the rings and jewels off of dead bodies who are being mass-buried and who will never be identified so they can sell them for survival purposes? At this point, everytone there who is trying to survive and is picking up things from the rubble might be considered a "looter."

[Razorback_Democrat]

38. Don't they have enough to shoot at in Iraq?

If all they are there for is to shoot looters, I say GET THE FUCK OUT!

[JVS]

40. Are our marines even in Tsunami affected areas?

[NNN0LHI]

42. Yea. Check out post #20 n/t

[Solon]

54. Your poll is stupid on its face...

No offence, but if they are unarmed, and you use deadly force, THAT IS MURDER, plain and simple, I would agree with armed robbers, etc. But your premise is false, because 99% of the time, deadly force isn't needed. Shoot first and ask questions later, huh? WHY the hell bring this up now. If you see a family trying to rummage through an devestated shop trying to get some food, are you going to kill every man, woman, and child?

[Is It Fascism Yet]

55. the penalty for theft is not death

they shouldn't shoot anyone for any reason unless someone is threatening to murder someone else. the penalty for theft is not death. deadly force should not be used for any reason except to counter-act deadly force.

[Solon]

56. Exactly...

I'm also distrubed by his use of the word order, proper order is ONLY established through a legal, CIVILIAN government with proper law enforcement. Martial law should never be an option, and it is NOT needed here. Why did we not use the same techniques in florida?

[0007]

62. The soldiers are to save lives not to shoot people for crimes.

[amazona]

63. being from a hurricane prone area...

...my heart says, yeah, shoot all the looters on sight and then put another bullet through to make sure they're dead.

However, my conscience and sanity says that the looters should be arrested, detained, and put on trial for their crimes just as any other criminal. I guess in the interest of a fair trial I should probably not be on their jury though.

[Locut0s]

66. You might feel differently if:

You might feel differently if it was one of your relatives who was shoot for stealing a loaf of bread because he was starving to death.

[thebigdonkey]

68. no way shooting them is way to harsh

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NNN0LHI]

76. 'Relatives buy tsunami corpses'

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Tsunami_Disaster/0,,2-10-1777_1641825,00.html

Colombo - Bodies of tsunami victims in Sri Lanka have been stolen from hospitals and "sold" to distraught relatives while fingers and ears of corpses have been chopped off to steal jewellery, press reports said on Friday.

A mass circulation Lankadeepa newspaper said a relative had to pay $50 to "buy" the body of a loved one who died in Sunday's tragedy in the southern coastal town of Galle.

It said corpses piling up at the hospital were being snatched by "human vultures" who later demanded large sums of money from relatives claiming they found the bodies at great risk to their own lives.

People were also snatching any valuables left on the thousands of rotting corpses, the island newspaper said in a report headlined: "Vultures in human form descend on the dead."

The newspaper said some gangs were demanding up to $100 to find bodies.

more

[Solon]

77. Larceny, theft, etc...

as reprehensible as that all is, I don't think it warrents a death penalty for the perps, jailtime, yes, but not death.

[NNN0LHI]

79. Its the rule of law that is lacking here temporarily

Once the rule of law is law is lost to gangs of criminals, you may never get it back. The rule of law needs to be reestablished as quickly as possible. There are only so many Marines and they can't be here forever. They are needed in other affected areas. They need to help get the local police back up and running and then need to go elsewhere. Lives are depending on them. But someone has to protect the food and storage sites for now and provide some semblance of security. And if just by the show of force and asking these gangs nicely not to loot these supplies and quit selling bodies is successful, that is all for the better.

Don

[Solon]

81. Your poll wasn't about "Gangs" or protecting supplies in general...

it was with a too broad term, "looters", and that is a huge problem and the reason why I call poll stupid. If you said, raiders, armed gangs of thugs, or mercs, I would have less of a problem, because that indicates VIOLENT individuals, not starving families trying to make best of a bad situation.

[Jesus H. Christ]

71. Fuck no.

What are they supposed to do? Pick up their paychecks and go get groceries at the piggly wiggly?

Jesus fucking Christ, some of you people are sick.

[DoNotRefill]

72. I have no problem with shooting looters....

I have a BIG problem with US troops doing it while on a humanitarian mission. Our troops over there should be helping people, not enforcing law and order.

[frankly_fedup2]

74. Rubber bullets are very effective. Also, why isn't there a curfew in

place.

This would have done wonders in Iraq.

[Solon]

78. Yeah, that REALLY did wonders in Iraq. (sarcasm) n/t

[OneBlueSky]

87. why is it that, when faced with a seemingly intractable problem . . .

involving other living beings, the typical first response by Americans is "let's just kill 'em"? . . . be it criminals or wild horses or looters in devastated areas, if it's a difficult problem to solve, and it involves people or other living creatures, we're quick to jump right to the most extreme (and irreversible) solution . . . rather than taking the time and expending the effort to explore alternative solutions . . . why is our society so much more interested in killing than it is in preserving life (and quality of life)? . . .

[CHIMO]

90. Hear Hear

Just may be some idiots running around with nothing better to say.

[Disturbed]

92. Why am I usually surprised..

by such blood lust on this site? Executing thieves? Damn!!!

The U.S Military shouldn't be in Indonesia at all. It is mainly a
Muslin area and has a large population of al Q supporters and many al Q members. If the U.S. Miltary isn't shot at or blown up I will be surprised.

[CHIMO]

93. Excuse The Language

Difference. I was agreeing with the previous post.
I fully agree with your statement.
I think the question in the original post is a come on.
When countries agree to help why do we have people putting up vague questions and in a way creating diversions?
There have been several posts pointing out the fallacy of the logic in the original question.
I treat this as a diversionary tactic to come up on the Wednesday talking points that will be distributed to all those right wing groups.

[Baja Margie]

95. What's left to fucking loot?

I saw on the news that supplies are not being distributed because there is no transport and people are just lining up being turned away. What would you do? Shit, if I had nothing and I knew there were some antibiotics or food or blankets or water I'd probably be looting too.

The answer is no. Christ Almighty !

[slackmaster]

115. Good question but there's always something to steal

Some people will take the jewelry and gold dental work off of bodies if you don't do something to stop them.

Shit, if I had nothing and I knew there were some antibiotics or food or blankets or water I'd probably be looting too.

You answered your own question.

[Baja Margie]

116. Pardon me,

Can you substantiate that people are stealing jewelry and gold dental work off of bosdies? Have I missed some news report?

And what do you mean by I answered my own question - look, it's the same down here, people are desperate to find work to feed their families. If I were in their position, I'd probably be running the Border too.

[slackmaster]

118. I didn't say they were doing so now

I have no way of knowing what's going on in the tsunami devestated areas.

I said it happens in looting situations. Normal people get weird when they're under stress, and weird people get weirder.

And what do you mean by I answered my own question...

You suggested you might be tempted to steal food or medicine. That answers the question of what's there to loot.

[pacifictiger]

96. most people looting are doing it for survival

[flordehinojos]

97. NO!!! but leave it to bush and his blood thirsty hands to find any excuse

to kill people.We are supposed to be there to HELP people. NOT to KILL people.

[daleo]

98. It would be stupid to have U.S. forces shoot looters

Whatever good will their assistance might generate in the affected countries would evaporate when the first "looter" was shot by a marine.

[KG]

100. this is one of the more ridiculous notions put forward on DU

oy.

[Seabiscuit]

101. WTF kind of question is that? We're not the world's policemen!!!

[Used and Abused]

103. umm...can't we just detain the looters

Why must we kill them? Death is final ya know? Some people are acting out of desperation and aren't necessarily criminals.

[NuttyFluffers]

104. this poll is ridiculous.

besides, this is why we need police (peace keepers) instead of hyper-tensed soldiers (marines) in these areas. they'd have a greater laxity to deal with these people in other less violent ways. not that marines can't, but ... historically soldiers are generally a bad choice to choose to maintain the peace. they are geared for battle, not the wonderfully nebulous area of maintaining social order.

that's why most of our military exercises under republicans have been royal failures. troops are for battles, police and guardsmen are for disasters and social order.

[NNN0LHI]

105. Your job is to get a portable desalination plant up and running

Perhaps to supply a small town of 5 or 10 thousand people. Their water supply has been ruined from the tsunami dumping salt water into their wells. Some people are so thirsty they are drinking this fouled water. Its all they have. They are going to die soon if something is not done quickly. You know you can have potable water running for these people before sunset. Then along comes a bunch of looters who want to take the crates containing the desalination plant. They don't even know whats inside the crates. They just want them. Probably to sell to some local scrap dealer. You know you can't get another desalination plant delivered and up and running for weeks if this one is looted, and as a result thousands of people were going to die.

What would you do in this situation?

Don

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[reorg]

129. nice speculation

- it reminds me of the hypothetical dilemmas conscious objectors were confronted with in Germany when their sincerity was supposed to be tested.

While nothing in this fantasy about a "bunch of looters" is supported by anything that has been reported to date, everyone is free to speculate, of course, given that he or she may have nothing better to do.

Even if such speculation appears to be geared to garner acceptance of theories such as the one of P. M. Barnett who wrote and talked about what he thinks should be the new (?) role of the US military: Filling the "Gap", which means "restoring order" in places and situations where it may be difficult for local authorities to do so.

This new role of the US military may seem attractive to those who resent that the new doctrine of preemptive warfare and interventions based on proven lies have resulted in a bad image of the US and the military, but have no problem with the idea of US world domination and control.

Personally, I believe such people are in for a surprise. Any friendship fostered by unselfish humanitarian help will vanish in the blink of an eye as soon as these helpers turn into foreign military goons shooting and killing those they are supposed to assist.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

130. I find a big stick

I knock his ass out, tie him up and continue with my work. That's what I would do.

And before you ask. What do I do if he/they are armed? I Pull out my gun, put a bullet in his leg, take my big stick, knock his ass out cold, tie him up, call medical to come get him, then I continue my work. There are all sorts of scenarios that "could" occur. To automatically respond with put a bullet in his/her head and be done with it is a little simplistic don't ya think?

[rman]

132. what he said

-

[sweetheart]

110. Should the chinese military shoot criminals in florida?

Soverignty... no guns. Let the local people apply their own laws.

Gosh, I would have considered that OBVIOUS, but it seems not.

[slackmaster]

112. Some looters need to be shot, most don't

Most looters will listen to reason when confronted by an armed person. The ones who aren't deterred need to be arrested. If they resist, then they can be shot.

[Baja Margie]

120. Listen to reason?

This whole premise is ridiculous in this particular situation. I cannot belive you. If there were timely and orderly relief there might not be this problem, let's turn our attention to that instead of sending in the Marines for cryin out loud. We are dealing with some of the poorest of the poor here, who barely had anything in terms of materialisms, and what little they had, their families included, was snatched violently away from them.

Sorry, this just sounds like something Bush would do, and by the way, get off on it too, since he is such a callous sadistic color hating prick.

What a totally Nazi technique under these circumstances.

[slackmaster]

122. Timely and orderly relief is not always possible

Both relief (food, water, medication, shelter, etc.) and restoration of order are needed when the whole system breaks down.

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[neebob]

123. I love your sig photo

Thanks for the laff!

[Catchawave]

114. Something else....

...I don't think we should involve our military at all, it sends the wrong message from Powerdrunk George. Let the affected countries provide their own security, we should just be assistng the relief and humanitarian efforts.

[tibbir]

117. Maybe if they were holding up at gunpoint

but just for stealing something? Patrol the area and lock up offenders. A strong presence is necessary. Unnecessary force isn't.

[Deja Q]

119. Don't worry, hon. * will use the same excuse should insurrection runs amok

here at home.

Feel better?

I thought so.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

125. say what? you think they should be shot? wow, if people are starving and

have lost EVERYTHING they need to do what ever to survive and should NOT i repeat NOT be killed for looting.....jay'sus h christ

i am surprised at you Don

[neebob]

126. Actually, I think our military needs to practice NOT shooting people

So if we're sending Marines, I'd rather see them helping clean up the mess and putting things back together than standing around guarding the possessions of the wealthy. It didn't seem to work very well in Iraq when they did stuff like run over that guy's cab with a tank for taking wood.

Maybe they could like, you know, transport people to get supplies and health care.

[gorbal]

128. Of course not

If we start shoting people, people will start shooting back. Every person we kill creates people who want to kill us.

[GoldenOldie]

131. Thailand, India have excellent military and police forces.

Our Marines are being sent as humanitarian aid to deliver, food, medicine, water, etc. Why should they be expected to shoot and kill looters when many of the affected Nations are quiet capable of policing themselves. We should be doing what we can to help and then stay the hell out of their way when they have the capability of handling it themselves.

If the Baghdad looting is an example of our Marines....our government...dealing with looters, than we should keep our guns away.

[slackmaster]

133. Have you read about these Thai "police officers"?

In Thailand thieves disguised as police and rescue workers have looted luggage and hotel safes around Khao Lak beach, where the tsunami killed up to 3,000 people....

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050103/wl_nm/quake_crime_dc

The need for security in the affected areas is undeniable.

[reorg]

137. the crime rate in Thailand is relatively low

as you will easily find when searching for travel info, including at government sites.

One example from an MSNBC article:

>> ...

Southfield, MI: Hi, is Thailand safe for a young woman to travel alone?

Reid Bramblett & Jason Cochran: As safe as you could hope for. Violent crime is quite rare in Thailand, as the local police can be quite unforgiving with lawbreakers. It tends to keep people in check. In fact, by our State Department’s own admission, Bangkok’s crime rate is lower than that of many American cities. ...

<<

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5333290/


So some thieves and robbers avail themselves of the current situation? Of course they do. Can the local police prevent ALL of this? Hm, I guess some crimes will go unpunished or even undetected.

As concerns the US Marines, however -- what with 6 property crimes per 100 persons every year in Washington DC -- don't you think they should rather restore order at home? Or would you consider this an outrageous suggestion?

[slackmaster]

138. Restoring order in DC sounds like a fine idea

However, having the Marines enforce it would violate the Posse Comitatus Act.

[Solon]

134. Why not just nuke the area....

I mean, seriously, if all those people are just scum who loot to survive, they do not deserve to live, at least this way we will know we got them all. /sarcasm

[Bridget Burke]

135. No.

Let them practice not killing people for a while.

[GoldenOldie]

136. Individuals dressed like Thai police???

Does not make them official Thai police.

What is the difference with those looters and the looters and thieves that pose as contractors, insurance, etc., that rush into the ravaged areas of the US and exploit the citizens?

[Bluebear]

139. Should the Thai police gun down people in Fort Myers?

[ooglymoogly]

140. talk about ridiculous options

[purduejake]

141. Great, you the poster wants another Iraq style insurgency?

When will we learn our lesson?

[solinvictus]

142. Correction

No, they shouldn't. On the initial post, I thought you meant the respective nations' armed forces. I missed the part about our troops.

[SemperEadem]

144. send police from Florida

since they seem to be trigger happy with stun guns... I abhor a thief, so a part of me says 'shoot them' because nothing justifies stealing and robbery (having been a victim of theft myself); tase them and put them in jail.