Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

The US is Indeed Behaving Like Nazis!! Fallujah in 2005 is Guernica!!

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 06:49 PM
Original message
The US is Indeed Behaving Like Nazis!! Fallujah in 2005 is Guernica!!
Edited on Sun Jan-02-05 06:52 PM by leftchick
Middle East

THE ROVING EYE
From Guernica to Fallujah
By Pepe Escobar

"It's difficult to believe that in this day and age, when people are blogging, emailing and communicating at the speed of light, a whole city is being destroyed and genocide is being committed - and the whole world is aware and silent. Darfur, Americans? Take a look at what you've done in Fallujah."
- Female Iraqi blogger Riverbend

The Fallujah offensive has virtually disappeared from the news cycle. But history - if written by Iraqis - may well enshrine it as the new Guernica. Paraphrasing Jean-Paul Sartre memorably writing about the Algerian War (1956-62), after Fallujah no two Americans shall meet without a corpse lying between them: the up to 500,000 victims of the sanctions in the 1990s, according to United Nations experts; the up to 100,000 victims since the beginning of the invasion of Iraq, according to the British medical paper The Lancet; and at least 6,000 victims, and counting, in Fallujah, according to the Iraqi Red Crescent.

The new Guernica
Fallujah is the new Guernica. The residents of the Basque capital in 1937 were resisting the Spanish dictator Francisco Franco. Fallujah in 2004 was resisting the dictator Iyad Allawi, the US-installed interim premier. Franco asked Nazi Germany - which supported him - to bomb Guernica, just as Allawi "asked" the Pentagon to bomb Fallujah. Guernica had no air force and no anti-aircraft guns to defend itself - just like Fallujah. In Guernica - as in Fallujah - there was no distinction between civilians and guerrillas: the order was to "kill them all". The Nazis shouted "Viva la muerte!" ("Long live death") along with their fascist Spanish counterparts before bombing Guernica.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FL02Ak02.html





A man walks down a street in the destroyed city of Fallujah, 50 kilometers west of the capital Baghdad. Nineteen people were killed in a suicide car bomb attack against Iraqi national guards as more US troops were sent to the restive city of Mosul to reinforce security ahead of landmark elections in four weeks.(AFP/Hrvoje Polan)




A body is brought for burial at a cemetery in the partially destroyed city of Fallujah, 50 kms west of Baghdad. Bodies of people who were killed during last months US offensive in the city are still being found and buried. Nineteen people were killed in a suicide car bomb attack against Iraqi national guards as more US troops were sent to the restive city of Mosul to reinforce security ahead of landmark elections in four weeks.(AFP/Fares Dlimi)



A column of vehicles carrying residents wait to pass the checkpoint before entering Fallujah, Iraq (news - web sites), Sunday, Jan. 2, 2005. US forces are still fighting insurgents in parts of Fallujah, although military officials said last month's offensive succeeded in regaining control of the city. Iraqi civilians continue to return to the troubled Sunni city. (AP Photo/Mohammed Khodor)




Iraqi men stand over the graves of their families after burying them in a yard in the western city of Falluja, January 2, 2005. Lakes of sewage in the streets and the smell of corpses inside charred buildings is are one of the first things a person will notice while walking into the city of Falluja, about six weeks after the end of the U.S.-led offensive against the city. REUTERS/Akram Saleh



US Marines from Lima Company patrol the devastated city of Fallujah, some 50 kilometers west of the capital Baghdad.(AFP/Hrvoje Polan)



http://www.pbs.org/treasuresoftheworld/guernica/glevel_1/1_bombing.html


For over three hours, twenty-five or more of Germany's best-equipped bombers, accompanied by at least twenty more Messerschmitt and Fiat Fighters, dumped one hundred thousand pounds of high-explosive and incendiary bombs on the village, slowly and systematically pounding it to rubble.

"We were hiding in the shelters and praying. I only thought of running away, I was so scared. I didn't think about my parents, mother, house, nothing. Just escape. Because during those three and one half hours, I thought I was going to die." (eyewitness Luis Aurtenetxea)


Those trying to escape were cut down by the strafing machine guns of fighter planes. "They kept just going back and forth, sometimes in a long line, sometimes in close formation. It was as if they were practicing new moves. They must have fired thousands of bullets." (eyewitness Juan Guezureya) The fires that engulfed the city burned for three days. Seventy percent of the town was destroyed. Sixteen hundred civilians - one third of the population - were killed or wounded.

News of the bombing spread like wildfire. The Nationalists immediately denied any involvement, as did the Germans. But few were fooled by Franco's protestations of innocence. In the face of international outrage at the carnage, Von Richthofen claimed publicly that the target was a bridge over the Mundaca River on the edge of town, chosen in order to cut off the fleeing Republican troops. But although the Condor Legion was made up of the best airmen and planes of Hitler's developing war machine, not a single hit was scored on the presumed target, nor on the railway station, nor on the small-arms factory nearby.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
MSgt213 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. We really should be ashamed of ourselves. We are becoming what we fear
or what we supposely fear. Maybe we were what we fear all along.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Razorback_Democrat Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Fallujahn's were massacred, citizens were shot by Marines
thousands of them

wake up
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FellowAmerican Donating Member (151 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
29. I would really love to see the facts on this
if you have a link. I've not read anywhere, or heard anywhere about this. And please don't link me to Al Jazeera - they don't deserve the title of 'news' agency - pure propagandists.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #29
51. US soldiers would kill civilians, says Marine
Series of photos of city's dead show civilians shot in bed, surrendering

Two weeks ago an Iraqi man was allowed into Fallujah by the U.S. military to help bury bodies. He was allowed to take photographs of 75 bodies, in order to show pictures to relatives so that they might be identified before they were buried.

These pictures are from a book of photos. They are being circulated publicly around small villages near Fallujah where many refugees are staying.

The man who took them was only allowed to take photos and bury bodies in one small area of Fallujah. He was not allowed to visit anywhere else. Keep in mind there are at least 1,925 other bodies that were not allowed to be seen.

http://www.gnn.tv/articles/article.php?id=980

"We were shooting up people as they got out of their cars trying to put their hands up," said Mr Massey. "I don't know if the Iraqis thought we were celebrating their new democracy. I do know that we killed innocent civilians." Mr Massey said US troops in Iraq were trained to believe that all Iraqis were potential terrorists. As a result, he had watched his colleagues open fire indiscriminately. In one 48-hour period, he estimated his unit killed more than 30 civilians in the Rashid district of southern Baghdad.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=591171



http://fallujapictures.blogspot.com/
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cire4 Donating Member (580 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #29
55. Al Jazeera is just as credible as the typical American media outlet
Rent the documentary "Control Room" and you will see what I mean...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LearnedHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #29
62. {{{snort}}}
Unlike our own news media, of course.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #29
74. Here is one of MANY threads from MONTHS ago.....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=645965

Clearly the US was bombing Fallujah for MONTHS before the "offensive".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. oh really?...
dropping 2000 lb bombs on a city of 250,000 people is indeed Nazi-like.
Bombs do not discriminate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. I hate it when you people compare Iraq to WWII!
Edited on Sun Jan-02-05 08:04 PM by leftchick
There is NO comparison unless you view the US as the aggressors like the Nazis in WWII. PERIOD!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 04:11 AM
Response to Reply #9
70. Iraq has NOTHING TO DO WITH 9-11--NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do you not UNDERSTAND???????????????????
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FellowAmerican Donating Member (151 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
24. The city was virtually empty
with maybe a few thousand who stayed behind - mostly terrorist. The people who lived in Fallajah were given advanced notice of the coming attack and were advised to leave. Hundreds of thousands did. The city was extensively damaged, but not flattened. The Nazi carpet bombings of WWII took down ever single building and they attacked with no notice upon thousands of innocent people - mass killing thousands. I see the difference.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. and do you believe....
Edited on Sun Jan-02-05 08:12 PM by leftchick
everything the US Military spokesman tell you? Now that is reminiscent of Vietnam! Try looking in DU archives for the bombings all through July of Fallujah. NIGHTLY!! No one had evacuated before the so called "offensive". I am not providing links for you. It is there if you want from reuters, AP and AFP news sources. Innocents killed nightly in US bombings. That is Genocide.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FellowAmerican Donating Member (151 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. Well, if no one was evacuated
then who are the thousands of people trying to get back into the city?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. try reading some reports like I suggested...
before spouting off generalizations like "they all evacuated so no innocents were killed". Sheesh talk about pollyanna scenarios! :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FellowAmerican Donating Member (151 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Did you really read my post?
Because I never said any of what you said I did. Sheesh, yourself. :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. okay how about.....
you said:
"The people who lived in Fallajah were given advanced notice of the coming attack and were advised to leave. Hundreds of thousands did."

First the city is Fallujah, city of Mosques. Or it used to be before the US Nazis attacked. Secondly, wtf is the difference? You don't seem to want to deal with the facts. Otherwise you would look for and read the reports of innocents bombed NIGHTLY in Fallujah for Months by the US BEFORE any alert for them to evacuate for the offensive against their city last fall. Many innocent Iraqis were killed for weeks and the US media ignored it, believing those 2000 lb bombs were "precision strikes" that only hit "insurgents", as the US Military said they were which was pure BS.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FellowAmerican Donating Member (151 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #41
57. We will just have to agree
to disagree. And as far as your comment about "US Nazi's," it is offensive to those of us who have loved ones and friends serving in Iraq to be disgraced in that manner.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 05:24 AM
Response to Reply #57
73. I have loved ones serving as well...
they are being used by the US NAZIS: bush*, cheney, rummsfeld and the rest of the insane neocons running the US government. It is very sad you would think I would denigrate our Military. I think it is very apparent how they are being used and abused by the US fascist regime in their immoral wars for profit and empire. It is a disgrace more people don't recognize fascism when it is in their face.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #35
53. The women and children who were allowed out before the bombings
Edited on Mon Jan-03-05 12:24 AM by Tinoire
and reprisal began.

All males over a certain age were forced to remain in the city.

I'd recommend you spend alot of time in LBN. Donate $10 to the site and get a star so that you can comb through the archives. Search for Fallujah-related stories in LBN & prepare to be extremely ashamed of what this country has done.

And no, they're not from Al-Jazeera.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anakie Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #24
42. Why then, did the US occupy the hospital
as one of the first actions of the Fallujah offensive. To control the flow of information on the number of civilians seeking treatment?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FellowAmerican Donating Member (151 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #42
58. No. I believe it was to
head off the terrorists coming for treatment.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anakie Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #58
61. do you really believe that?
or are you being sarcastic?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chelaque liberal Donating Member (981 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #58
68. Define terrorist!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #24
65. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #24
87. Obviously you have not looked at the photos
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Postman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. You're correct. Nothing can compare to the Holocaust. But...
Edited on Sun Jan-02-05 07:19 PM by Postman
just because the Bush Administration isn't systematically killing a certain sect of people doesn't mean Nazi tactics aren't being used. What would you call "Shock and Awe"? Isn't that a modern day form of "Blitzkrieg"?

What makes you think you're getting ALL the news out of Fallujah from the right-wing media? April 2004 US Soldiers shot into a peaceful demonstration in Fallujah killing innocent people, which resulted in the widely played Bridge hanging of corpses of Blackwater Mercenaries. Did you know about the incident that caused the corpse mutilations of that bridge?

The entire Iraq War is a collosal foreign policy blunder.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
StClone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. Over reacting?
If you tap into the chatter of world opinion the effect of Fallujah's destruction is often cited as being not too dissimilar from Hitler's atrocities.

The point to me is that we should never have invaded Iraq for WMDs. From there flows what in affect leaves us appearing as amoral whether the actual events lived up to what is perceived to have occurred or not. We should have prepared better and we should have known better in the end we have lost more than gained in Iraq as far as world prestige.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Postman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Iraq is not just ANY war to be in opposition to....
the whole laundry list of excuses for war were lies and known to be lies before they were put forward as "evidence". Ever heard of the OSP? Ray McGovern?

Here is a link related to the Fallujah Massacre of April 2004 -

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/01/1621223&mode=thread&tid=25

The US mainstream media are just as culpable in selling this fiasco to the public as the Bush Administration is. The job of a journalist is to question authority, to prove that the situation is as dire as they say it is so as to prevent needless deaths.

Instead of making politicians prove their case, they end up as press agents for the Pentagon. Remember such shows as MSNBC's "Countdown Iraq"? The title alone suggests that war is a foregone conclusion. So much for journalism in the US.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. We all know Bushists are acting like nazis.
It's no surprise their apologists act like nazi sympathizers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #6
54. but in this case, it's all Krieg and no Blitz
Kreig ohne Blitz.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DELUSIONAL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. not a story -- HISTORY.
The reason why we compare Fallujah with the Nazi slaughter is because the Nazis did such a great job of photographing and recording their atrocities.

We can see before photos of what Warsaw looked like and the after the Germans virtually destroyed the city. We also have eye witnesses alive today and we have films like the one I mention below (The Pianist) that show the systematic slaughter of the Jews (and Polish insurgents). This movie is a re-enactment of history. Roman Polanski was the director and he was 7 years old when he escaped the Warsaw ghetto. He walked past the dead bodies -- and was old before his time.

Hitler and the Nazis are part of our recent history -- and we can still access the photos and films.

The US (Nazi wannabes) did systematically enter all homes in a certain district and murdered every living thing they encountered. Photos exist of this slaughter.

It really pisses me off when some people want to set the Holocaust apart -- as if nothing like this ever happened before. Reading the Old Testament -- if this in fact true historically then the Jewish people engaged in their own brand of genocide of anyone who opposed them. Then the European Invaders into the "New World" murdered/slaughtered/starved/poisoned & gave diseased blankets to the Native Americans and reduced their numbers from an estimated 50 million in 1492 to barely half a million by 1900.

Genocide is Genocide -- and the practice of genocide is ancient and modern. One group of people who hold power are going to blame a weaker group and scapegoat that group and then justify the slaughter.

The German people have had to face up to what their nation did -- and at some point the US also must face up to what their "leader" has ordered done in Fallujah and throughout Iraq.

Right now the "evil seed" is running our nation -- but our guilt about what is being done in our name must be recognized. How will future generations look back on us?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
DELUSIONAL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Look for yourself -- I'm not going to do YOUR work for you
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #18
32. Here you go....2004 version of Napalm on an Iraqi terrist...
Though now it is called "Whitey Pete" for White Phosphorous bombs. Nice huh?



here is a link for your "proof"...
http://www.einswine.com/atrocities/iraq/?D=3&pic=37
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Postman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Why can't you just Google them yourself?
You expect FOX News to give them to you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Postman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Here are some pics for you..enjoy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Postman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. The "enemy we are fighting in Iraq"....
Edited on Sun Jan-02-05 09:04 PM by Postman
who might that be?
The Iraqi defending his home?

Some people, even when given the evidence, still refuse to believe. And unlike Colin Powell's BS story in front of the UN, these are REAL pictures, not cartoons of something (i.e. mobile biological weapons labs) that some crazed neo-con dreamed up in his head.

How many Iraqi's were on those planes on 9/11?

Bush is creating more enemies than he is killing in Iraq. The heavy handed tactics used to eliminate Iraqi defenders are creating more "insurgents".

Just as you would defend your home if invaded, so are they.

There may be some foreign "terrorists" fighting US forces in Iraq, but everyone fighting US forces in Iraq are not foreign terrorists, they are Iraqis who are defending their homeland just as you would yours. Nationalism and love of country are not mutually exclusive to the United States.

And you are incorrect about "the enemy" not wearing uniforms. They are wearing uniforms. They are known as the Iraqi National Guard. In case you haven't noticed, The ING has been infiltrated by the resistance. Read this...

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/09/22/1422225&mode=thread&tid=25

snip:
Everywhere we went, including the first time when they put me in the car, the American-paid Iraqi police were the ones that were instrumental in working hand in glove with the resistance,
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. The US military disagrees with you. So do the Iraqis.
Insurgents Are Mostly Iraqis, US Military Says

During the succeeding months, they say, the insurgents' ranks have been bolstered by Iraqis who grew disillusioned with the U.S. failure to deliver basic services, jobs and reconstruction projects.

It is this expanding group, they say, that has given the insurgency its deadly power
and which represents the biggest challenge to an Iraqi government trying to establish legitimacy countrywide.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0928-21.htm

So actually in FACT, they are average Iraqis defending their homes. If America were invaded & occupied, what would YOU do?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Flammable Materials Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #50
75. Al-Sabah is widely regarded in Iraq as a tool of the US:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #48
52. Sorry kiddo but polls from Iraq say otherwise;
Edited on Mon Jan-03-05 12:50 AM by LynnTheDem
Poll: Only 2% of Iraqis View the US as Liberators, 97% as Occupiers

http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=7752&fcategory_desc=Under%20Reported

The majority of "insurgents" are ordinary every day garden variety Iraqis fighting the foreign invaders -the ones wearing US military uniforms- in Iraq.

Again I ask you; what would YOU do if America were invaded & occupied? I'd fight the invaders. It's what patriots do.

Iraq was SECULAR before bushie launched his illegal war of aggression. And of course you do know Iraq had nothing whatsoever to do with 911, yes?

And of course you do know that "spreading democracy" was NEVER the justification bush lied us to war with? And you do know that "spreading democracy" by invasion & occupation is about as insane an idea as one could possibly have and in fact is the exact opposite of what "democracy" even means?

Only a total fool thinks we're "spreading democracy" in Iraq or that such a silly fool idea is even possible or worth 1300+ troops and 100,000+ Iraqis dying for.

"overall attitudes toward the United States and the Coalition Provisional Authority are extremely negative. Only 27 percent have a favorable opinion of the CPA, and just 23 percent have a favorable opinion of the United States."

51% of Iraqis say attacks on troops are justified;

"support for armed attacks on coalition forces is not confined to a tiny minority of extremists as the Bush administration has insisted. Twenty-two percent of respondents stated that attacks were justified "sometimes," and another 29 percent endorsed attacks without any qualification."

Nor is there any indication of a vast reservoir of support for democracy. Once again, strong support for democracy in the Kurdish north contrasts with anemic support in the Sunni and Shiite regions (31 percent and 27 percent respectively.)

http://www.cato.org/dailys/05-18-04.html

Al Sistani's coalition is likely to win, if any elections are held at all. Let's see how much "democracy" we have:

1. Supreme Assembly of Islamic Revolution in Iraq SAIRI

2. Islamic Al-Da'wah Party.

3. Centrist Grouping Party.

4. Badr Organization.

5. Islamic Al-Da'wah Party/Iraq's Organization.

6. Justice and Equality Grouping.

7. Iraqi National Congress INC .

8. Islamic Virtue Party.

9. First Democratic National Party.

10. Islamic Union of Iraqi Turcomans.

11. Turcoman Al-Wafa Party.

12. Islamic Grouping in Iraq .

13. Islamic Action Organization.

14. Future Iraq Grouping.

15. Hizbullah Movement in Iraq.

16. Islamic Master of Martyrs Movement.

Not much. Appears to be mostly an Islamic theocracy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #52
59. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #59
64. And we "spread democracy" in Vietnam too.
And that worked just as well there as we're "spreading democracy" in Iraq.

Again, sorry kiddo, but you're wrong. And you'll find that out for yourself very soon. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 04:41 AM
Response to Reply #48
72. The majority of Iraqis
feel that the US is fighting and OCCUPYING the "average Iraqi".

Face it. This isn't a war of liberation. It's a war of aggression and WE'RE the aggressors.





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LearnedHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #44
63. Well, there we have it, straight from Bosh's mouth
"America is in fact fighting a radical sect of Islam..." Welcome to the Crusades, v2.0.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #63
66. Notice too, straight from a rightwing blog
Edited on Mon Jan-03-05 02:37 AM by LynnTheDem
Very rightwing blog. A lying full of shit rightwing blog.

Coz in BUSH'S OWN CPA polls, less than 30% in Baghdad want any kind of a "democracy". And in FACT Sistani's coalition WILL WIN elections, and in FACT the list I posted above of Sistani's coalition are NOT democratic parties.

And IN FACT let's post ALL of the "poll" dear bosh is speaking about, shall we? :D

Powerline blog:

As we've said before, the only people who want the elections postponed are the ones who want them never to take place. The vast majority of Iraqis can't wait to begin exercising their privileges as free citizens. And it's good to see that an overwhelming majority expect the U.S. to stand by its commitment to January elections, rather than giving in to the terrorists and Democrats. They have learned, I guess, that President Bush is a man who says what he means and means what he says. As, thankfully, have we.

http://powerlineblog.com/archives/008929.php

Uh oh...BUSTED!

ROTFLMAO!!!

PS; bush is THE BIGGEST FLIP-FLOPPER around who can barely speak English, so that "says what he means and means what he says" crap is so HILARIOUS!


MSNBC - Grim Numbers

A U.S.-sponsored poll shows Iraqis have lost confidence in the occupying authorities—and that the majority of Iraqis want Coalition troops out of the country.

The first survey of Iraqis sponsored by the U.S. Coalition Provisional Authority shows that most say they would feel safer if Coalition forces left immediately, without even waiting for elections scheduled for next year. An overwhelming majority, about 80 percent, also say they have “no confidence” in either the U.S. civilian authorities or Coalition forces.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5217874/site/newsweek/

Iraqis want US to be gone

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1543739,00.html

Majority of Iraqis want US to withdraw

http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/nation/8624295.htm

London Free Press: News Section - Most Iraqis want troops out

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/LondonFreePress/News/2004/04/30/441558.html

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #66
67. The rightwing blog also lies about this being the "first in world history"
for Arabs voting...except for Israel.

Excuse me while I LOL!!!

Iraq has had elections before, you silly "powerlineblog" morans...as have several other Arab nations. Good grief WHERE do they come up with this shit???
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. illegal combatants
that's what the imperial japanese called the chinese resister in nanking.

they used to pick out from the crowd by their suntans, haircuts, posture, hands, feet, etc. anything that gave them an indication they MIGHT be working with the resistance.

when they picked them and they weren't sure they tortured them... when they were sure they executed them.

sound familiar?

peace
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. Good grief.
Sure hope these bush-apologist warmongers sign up to go die for bush's bullshit soon.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
not systems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Try these
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tacos al Carbon Donating Member (326 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #12
26. If you're going to talk about history, you should know something about it
Guernica had nothing to do with soldiers going house to house. Guernica was a carpet bombing campaign that obliterated a city and much of its citizenry (who were not encouraged or given a chance to leave). Fallujah and Guernica have ZERO in common.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #26
76. Tell that to this woman...
whose home was destoyed by US BOMBS....

http://electroniciraq.net/news/1765.shtml

~snip~
Last week I visited a refugee camp full of Iraqi people exiled from Fallujah. As many as eight people at once squeezed into concrete cabins the size of walk-in closets. "My home is destroyed; I saw it with my own eyes," one woman wailed. "We have no homes, no rations, no money, no jobs, little electricity, no generators, and not enough kerosene for heaters or stoves. There is no hospital here, no school." A little girl I held in my arms had a deformed skull, too large for a six-month-old baby. I wondered how she would receive medical care.

All of the refugees were physically and psychologically damaged. Just as so many soldiers are physically and psychologically damaged.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tacos al Carbon Donating Member (326 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. And this has what to do with Guernica
Which was carpet bombed?

Do you really not see the distinction?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. I would guess it makes no difference to the folks being bombed.
a 2000 lb bomb night after night on a city full of civilians would probably mean the same to the poor folks on the ground. It is sad you can not see the similarities. Try reading the whole article in the initial post. If you care to.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #77
81. Here is a visual for you...
Tell them they were not "carpet bombed" ... :eye:



An Iraqi boy and his grandmother survey the rubble of their home in the devastated city of Fallujah where US forces have targeted rebel activity.
Photo: AFP
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tacos al Carbon Donating Member (326 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. So, out of curiosity
Do you know what "carpet bombed" means? Look, the nuke at Hiroshima destroyed homes. Because these people in Fallujah had their home destroyed, does that therefore mean that they were nuked? Do you really not see the fallacy in your reasoning, or are you just stubbornly insisting on sticking with groundless hyperbole?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #82
83. Explain the difference to him...
This is a victim of White Phosphorous (aka: Napalm) used on people in Fallujah by the US Military this year. That is one war crime among many. Now wtf does Hiroshima have to do with Guernica. I believe you are being intentionally obtuse. There is no hyperbole when it comes to the US wantonly killing people in Iraq.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tacos al Carbon Donating Member (326 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #83
84. Speaking of obtuse
Hiroshima has as much to do with Guernica as Guernica has to do with Fallujah. Guernica was not nuked (not Hiroshima) and Fallujah was not carpet bombed (not Guernica). You can find INDIVIDUAL VICTIMS such as those you've shown in ANY war zone.

And phosphorous is NOT napalm, aka or otherwise. And the phrase "US wantonly killing people in Iraq" is pretty much THE DEFINITION of hyperbole. Now, if all this is still unclear to you, you are beyond my powers to help. Possibly beyond anyone's.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #82
85. CARPET BOMBING vs LASER "PRECISION" BOMBING (graphic)
You are just as dead and shit Happens

Both Guernica and Fallujah are WAR CRIMES

And then the residents get ticked off and do shit like this---




A common type of injury associated with roadside improvised explosive device run over by a Humvee.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tacos al Carbon Donating Member (326 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #85
88. More gory pictures don't make your point
Edited on Wed Jan-05-05 12:38 PM by Tacos al Carbon
Carpet bombing vs. laser guided bombs. If these are functionally the same because you are "just as dead" then a nuclear bomb and a sniper are the same because you are "just as dead." Hell, nukes and car accidents are the same because you are "just as dead."

The "Just as dead" argument that has been used here and elsewhere repeatedly (usually accompanied by graphic photographs irrelevent to the argument but designed to make an emotional impact) is the epitomy of intellectual laziness and muddled thinking. Let me ask you: The men who died protecting the Alamo and the people of Guernica were both killed in a military action. They are "just as dead." Is what happened to each of them morally or functionally equivalent?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #88
89. I don't know the alamo
I'm not from Texas and don't do knitting. Your point is morally and intellectually BANKRUPT.

LOL
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FellowAmerican Donating Member (151 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
30. I agree with you, and you should not be banned
for having your own opinion.

Welcome to DU - an interesting mixture of ideas and thoughts! :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #30
86. ADIOS
Vaya Con Dios
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #1
71. Those of us here on DU may fear this
but I'm afraid at this point a majority of Americans DON'T fear it and are in fact willingly accepting it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
theycanbiteme Donating Member (89 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. They're not alone....
what does this remind you off:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3548601.stm

Oh...the irony...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DELUSIONAL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
7. The similarities Nazi/US are there for anyone who bothers to look
Many of us tried to stop this invasion before it started -- but we were ignored by the bushita gang as a mere focus group.

I watched the movie "The Pianist" -- this is about how the Jews were walled up in the Warsaw Ghetto. It is the story of how Wladyslaw Szpilman (composer/pianist)survived the horrors of the ghetto -- we see the destruction and slaughter through his eyes.

When the Nazis went through the city and systematically destroyed buildings and homes using flame throwers -- I though of what the US Troops are doing in Fallujah on the orders of Der bush/Hitler.

The movie had re-enactment of shooting resisters (insurgents) and then running over the feet of Polish and/or Jewish insurgents -- ditto for real -- happened in Fallujah. Szpilman walks past a family -- shot to death in the street. In Fallujah families are shot to death trying to escape Fallujah in cars or boats -- or in their beds in their own home. This also happened in the Warsaw Ghetto. Starving people to death -- done in the Warsaw Ghetto and probably also happening in Iraq and Afghanistan.

This movie was made well before the invasion of Iraq -- but damned if the bushita gang isn't using Nazi methods of genocide to rid Iraq of the "bad guys".

bush is getting away with murder -- only a Tsunami can out do this killing monster in the white house.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
11. FALLUJAH == NANKING
Edited on Sun Jan-02-05 07:42 PM by bpilgrim

Japanese aircraft bombed south Shanghai Station Aug.28,1937.
About 200 people in the waiting room were dead or wounded by the bombing. A crying baby was left alone after the bombing. -
Life Oct. 4, 1937

PNAC == GEACPS

peace
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
15. when I look at those pics, I see GENOCIDE ....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Will most Iraqis shrug off what has been done...
in the name of "Freedom"?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
34. it's gonna get worse and worse... we just used the 'Dresden option'
Edited on Sun Jan-02-05 08:22 PM by bpilgrim
in falujha - to borrow a term i read recently - and that hasn't helped and that was our last military option... though i see it as much closer to NANKING and PNAC matches up closely with GEACPS though much larger in scope.

with any nazi association being such a discussion killer and GEACPS matching up so well with PNAC - accept in scale - i don't understand why this analogy isn't used more often :shrug:

not to mention the media ALWAYS getting it wrong on preventive war by calling our war of aggression pre-emptive, which is LEGAL while the former is not :crazy:

peace
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. yes indeed.
go ameriKa! :puke:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lpbk2713 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
39. We have met the enemy and he is us.


Mission afuckincomplished alright.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
47. I don't know what anyone is thinking who is definding this.
there is no defending this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-02-05 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
49. you can argue that it's "not as bad"
but I see that as a bit like saying, "well, he only sorta raped her." or "hey, they only killed a few thousand people, so it's not nearly as bad."

All I know is that while there are many good people in the service (I have a few friends there or heading there), people are conditioned to follow orders without hesitation for the most part, and can be tried for not doing so. Add to this the stress of combat and weariness, and some f'd up things can potentially happen.

We have struck many civilian targets (accident or not) and taken many lives of the people who had no say in the matter as they lived in a dictatorship. hmm.. sounds familiar.

However, those in charge are responsible for this, and frankly need to step up to the plate in claiming that responsibility. oh sorry, the mission is already accomplished. :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
56. probably more like Hue City, in Vietnam

but in this game of comparisons, everybody uses the material s/he knows best.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
60. Those not outraged by this should enlist before it's to late to get in on
Edited on Mon Jan-03-05 01:27 AM by oasis
all of this glorious killing. :bounce: "I love the smell of napalm in the morning".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Is It Fascism Yet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 03:40 AM
Response to Original message
69. well, we really are ashamed, but not of ourselves, at least not I
they don't do it in my name because I loudly protested not to do it before and during and until now, as I suspect, you did as well. So,I am ashamed of Shrub, Big Dick the Vice Retard, and of course, Rummy. I guess I am ashamed of us, though, that we didn't do what the Ukrainians did and just plain stop the country, just stop everything, not pay taxes, not go to work, not spend money, not do shit except congregate in public until they gave us a legal election. Is it too late? I am ashamed of us for not impeaching this insane unelected unpresident, for allowing him to continue to rabidly run rampant across the world. We the people never conceived or approved this massacre, we are mortified bystanders, unable to stop them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
78. New Photo from today.....
sad...



Iraqi volunteers carry away bodies of the dead in plastic bags after collecting them from the streets, some six weeks after the end of the U.S-led offensive in Falluja, January 3, 2005. U.S. and Iraqi officials ushered in the New Year warning they expected a spike in pre-election assaults by insurgents but pledging to do everything possible to safeguard what they say will be the country's first free elections since the 1950s, on January 30. REUTERS/Akram Saleh

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RUDUing2 Donating Member (968 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
80. the current situation in the US makes me think more of Stalinist Russia
Edited on Mon Jan-03-05 03:04 PM by RUDUing2
then Franco or Hitler tbh...

At the beginning it wasn't bad..started getting bad little by little..a few more liberties being taken away here and there..anyone who disagreed was painted as unpatriotic..no such thing as dissident, just as traitors...then they started taking people in for *questioning* if they didn't toe the *official* line...and they were sent to special places (aka siberia/QB)...then the USSR started invading surrounding countries to force them into the proper form of government (the one that they should all want anyway, cause it was the best form of govt...)...and somehow the *people* didn't view the leader of the country as being behind the things being done (torture, etc)..he was held blameless as a *good* man...and if they could just let him know what was being done, then of course he would put a stop to it...

Sound familiar to anyone else?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-07-05 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
90. Why compare us to Nazis? We've dropped bombs on civilians before
Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Hanoi, and so on.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 23rd 2024, 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC