Dear NYT: Please count me in as one DUer who doesn't "hate" Bush

[lostnfound]

You have written that DU is a gathering place for people who hate Bush. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=109x16975

My Christian belief system teaches me that all men and women are my brothers and sisters. The truth is I want the best for George W. Bush -- I wish he would awaken to his original self, before it was warped by family visions of world domination and wealth and by the soulless structure of greed-hunger and power-hunger that envelopes our political world in darkness. At the end of the day, he is simply a flawed man with too much power. I hate evil, but I can't judge him as an evil to be hated because I don't know what it's like to have 'grown up Bush'.

Perhaps many DUers 'hate' him, but personally, I simply hate the actions of his administration, and I think he is unfit to be president. Of course, the buck stops at his desk, or is supposed to, so I wouldn't let him off the hook politically. But many of us here at DU think he plays the role of a puppet or a figurehead.

It's ironic: Your newspaper plays the game of "hating" one world leader after another to justify impending coups. A long stream of evil leaders built up larger-than-life -- Hussein, Noriega, Aristide, Chavez, Qaddafi, Milosevic -- have been vilified in your pages, as a convenience to the warmakers, who pretend that a single leader is evil incarnate. You ought to recognize such shorthand when written by others.

[Brundle_Fly]

1. hate is too strong.

pity, disgust, repulsion....

never hate.

[ET Awful]

5. You forgot nausea and projectile vomiting :) n/t

[0007]

32. Characterized by a strong urge to vomit.

[Bertha Venation]

2. Well written. Thank you.

I marvel at the level of hatred here at DU. I've written on it several times. It's disturbing. :shaking head:

[dkofos]

3. I hate him

[RafterMan]

7. Me too

There's just no other word.

But he didn't cause the damned tsunami.

[sub.theory]

66. I hate him too

I hate that bastard, and I'm not even close to sorry about it. Course, I hate the NYT for being the sellout whores they are too.

[LWolf]

4. I don't hate. Period.

Hate is destructive; it doesn't lead to progress on any points.

Disagree with? Yes.

Sometimes angry with? Yes, although I probably feel more grief over the consequences than anger with the perpetrator.

Hate? Never.

[JimmyJazz]

6. I hate him for sending young people to die for a needless invasion.

He has blood on his hands. Sorry.

[bowens43]

8. I'm with the haters.

I hate that ignorant, arrogant , bigoted, war mongering son of a bitch.

The truth is I want bush to spend the rest of his miserable life locked up in very small cell.

Hating evil and those who champion evil is appropriate.

[flyingfysh]

9. Bush is shallow, cruel, and greedy

but what reason is that to hate him?

[RafterMan]

11. The three you just gave?

Seriously, what other word is there? It seems like a lot of people have defined hate upwards to meet some towering metaphysical criteria. Why, I wonder? There are no towering metaphysical criteria, and that leaves you without a word to describe how you feel towards Bush.

Good old simple hate.

[Dangerman]

24. How about...

Liar, mass-murderer, and double-standard hypocrite.

[rwork]

10. If in Iraq

someone killed my entire family, I would hate them.I would'nt worry about what happened in their childhood.Just a statement.No offense.

[Crankie Avalon]

12. Maybe any critical view of Bush will seem like "hate"...

...to a corporate media entity that has been as subservient to the Administration as the New york Times Co. has.

Yet another major print outlet taking potshots at a new information stream, as said print outlet sees its own shrinking relevance while the influence of the "blogosphere" seems to be booming.

The New York Times has only itself to blame. From the disgraceful drumbeating for the war on Iraq it excreted into public discourse (hearkening back to how Hearst helped start the charade of the Spanish-American War) to the Jason Blair debacle, the Times is in no position to pretend to look down on organizations that knew better.

[JimmyJazz]

13. I would like to clarify this by saying that the "haters of bush" aren't

saying that you are wrong for not hating him - please don't view this as a personal attack - In fact, one of my favorite books is "What's So Amazing About Grace?" - Phillip Yancy - I know that I should not hate him, but I do.

When I walked into the YMCA yesterday, someone had a framed picture sitting on the desk - it was a young man in his uniform with his date of birth and date of death underneath - I hated Bush even more yesterday because I blame him for murder of that boy.

[quaoar]

14. What's wrong with hating Bush????

[Ganja Ninja]

15. Bush hater here ...

and damn proud of it. I could care less what the lying NY Times has to say. If they had done their job Bush might have been forced to go after bin Laden rather than trying to steal Saddam's oil. The NY Times are Bush enablers. And by enabling Bush's oil war they are enabling bin Laden and his minions.

[driver8]

44. Bush hater here, too...

I don't think I have ever felt hatred like I do for this "man".

[NJCher]

16. excellent point you make there

In your last paragraph! The villifying done by the NY Times is second to none.


Cher

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

17. It's the old "hate the sin, love the sinner" dilemma.

I'm sorry...I have to look at the people who have suffered at the hands of this man. I have to look at senior citizens. I have to look at 18 and 19 year old kids who will spend the rest of their lives in therapy, as a slave to substance abuse, or worse, because of this man's oil war.

I look at the people in THIS photo:



...and I'm sorry. NONE of the people in this photo are my brothers and sisters.

I respect your opinion. I'm thinking of teenagers that had four functioning limbs a few years ago and now have "four or less."

But yeah, hate the sin and not the sinner. Christ can call George W. Bush my brother. I do not, and I don't have to use the word "hate" to express that to you.

[Dangerman]

27. I agree.

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

29. I think he's pure, unadulterated, unrepentant greed and evil in human form

I don't care if his mommy and daddy didn't show him enough love growing up.

I don't care if some snake handler in a revival tent in Texas facilitated his being "born again."

I don't care about his "mission," his "mandate," his "calling from God."

I hope that there are two seats being kept warm in hell, one for Bush, the other for Dick "Crash Cart" Cheney.

Although when it comes to having blood on his hands, Cheney has no "Christian ideology" to fog his vision. The more of your sons and daughters he can stuff into the meat grinder, the more direct deposits from Halliburton. It's nothing personal...it's just that if they don't die, he can't profit.

[demnan]

18. Well

Maybe they can paint us as a forum that hates shoddy media reporting? That is true but a little too close to home.

What has happened to the media? And I agree with those people who say there is nothing wrong with hating Bush. It might be against someone's religion, and I respect this, but it's not against mine.

[Tracer]

19. I've only "hated" two people in my entire life ...

... and neither one was George W. Bush.

However, Mr. Start-A-War-for-no-Reason surely disgusts me!

[leesa]

20. Well, while you are waiting for him to return to his original self, he is

murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent people. This may be his original self.

Hate can be used for good when it stops a murderer such as Bush.

[devilgrrl]

21. You want hate? Check out FreeRepublic or Lucianne.com

They've got some hate for you!

Yeah... hate.

[quaoar]

22. They also start from the assumption

that hate, by definition, is a bad thing, which, of course, is incorrect. Hate can be liberating. And they assume that hating the president is destructive, which it can be, but not when the president is a threat to the Constitution.

[seabeyond]

23. i dont hate ........ either

agree with your post. want bush out as bad as everyone, he is a pathetic man. that is his journey, and right now because he has the power, his pathetic effects the world

but i dont hate him. i often merely see him in fetus position sucking his thumb

[RebelOne]

25. I don't hate him

I just despise the entire Bush administration.

[Dangerman]

26. I am a Bush Hater...

And damn proud of it!

[rocktivity]

28. The object of the "Bush hate game" is to shame us into silence

Thought policing isn't enough--now they're going to tell us how we should feel as well? Hate Saddam, love Bush, that's an order? We should pretend to love Bush simply because we're stuck with him? Any negative feelings towards Bush are irrational or unfounded? Is DU selected to be your next target? Do I detect the presence of a green-eyed monster?

:headbang:
rocknation

[seabeyond]

33. also, dismiss to hate, like repugs did with clinton

which was not on policy or his running government, but totally judgement of what kind of man he was.........and the other side

so create the hate for bush, and all our valid points on policy, reasons to say bush is not good. it is easy to see. they can "silence" and dismiss what is being said and nevah have to address it. refute it. show it to be anything otherwise

why abb was bad. they just hate bush, ergo all the zillion reasons to not want bush as president was dismissed and minimalized to that. simply being unreasonable. oh, the woman being emotional, dismiss it all. look she is shrieking now

[CrownPrinceBandar]

52. I don't think its envy..................................

Even though one might be envious of a conclave of 60,000+ intellectual and motivated souls (sock-puppets notwithstanding) who are not shy about their ill feelings of *. I think its something different. I think its something more primal that drives the NYT to publish the "H-bomb" in association with DU. It lingers about their vicious little diatribes on a level that even dogs can detect. I smell fear.

[Toucano]

30. Bush H8TER

Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): hat·ed; hat·ing
transitive senses

1 : to feel extreme enmity toward <hates his country's enemies>
2 : to have a strong aversion to : find very distasteful <hated to have to meet strangers> <hate hypocrisy>
intransitive senses : to express or feel extreme enmity or active hostility

I hate George W. Bush.

My religion doesn't require me to apoligize to the NY Times or anyone else, and it has nothing to do with "evil".

[bloom]

54. word usage

I think an awful lot of people use the word hate when they really mean disagree. I disagree with just about everything Bush* has done.

I am also angry that he has stolen his position of power and used that position to implement murder and torture and to diminish civil liberties.

-----
Usage: Hate is the generic word, and implies that one is
inflamed with extreme dislike. We abhor what is deeply
repugnant to our sensibilities or feelings. We detest
what contradicts so utterly our principles and moral
sentiments that we feel bound to lift up our voice
against it. What we abominate does equal violence to
our moral and religious sentiments. What we loathe is
offensive to our own nature, and excites unmingled
disgust. Our Savior is said to have hated the deeds of
the Nicolaitanes; his language shows that he loathed
the lukewarmness of the Laodiceans; he detested the
hypocrisy of the scribes and Pharisees; he abhorred
the suggestions of the tempter in the wilderness.

Hate \Hate\, n. hass, Icel. hatr, SW. hat, Dan. had, Goth. hatis. Cf. Hate,
v.]
Strong aversion coupled with desire that evil should befall
the person toward whom the feeling is directed; as exercised
toward things, intense dislike; hatred; detestation; --
opposed to love.

http://dict.die.net/hate/

--------

I also maintain an extreme dislike and aversion to entities/persons/corporations that enable Bush* to do what he does. I don't sit around wishing for evil to befall Bush* and other assorted persons - though I do have a wish that their power would crumble and they be imprisoned. But I would consider that to be a wish for justice - not an expression of hate.

[Toucano]

59. Maybe for some...

I disagree with the notion that hate is "too strong", that's why I referred to the definition. I don't think there's anything immoral about hating something or someone.

I hate his "ideas".
I hate his actions.
I hate his voice.
I hate his looks.
I hate the way he walks.
I hate the way he has conducted his life.
I hate George W. Bush and there's no reason for me to apologize to anyone for it.

I don't consider him "evil", though. He's just wrong.

[lumpy]

31. Me hate Dubya ?

No, I detest the little rat.

[GOPBasher]

34. Good letter, well written, and you're a better person than I am.

I try, like you, to not "hate" Bush, being a Christian myself. But I haven't been able to. Though I try, I can't help but hate Bush.

[Dangerman]

36. If that's the case...

Of "Hate the sin, love the sinner" then...

I love Saddam Hussein with all my heart! (sarcasm)

In Bush's case, hate BOTH the sin AND the sinner as far as I'm concerned!

[GOPBasher]

40. Good point. On edit I deleted that part of my post.

I realized I was saying too much about my personal beliefs and going way off topic.

[Stephanie]

35. I hate him

150,000 people killed and he cannot be bothered to interrupt his vacation. Five million in immediate danger, and what is the first thing he does when he finally ends his seclusion in Crawford? Prances with cheerleaders. Yeah, I hate him.





President Bush (news - web sites) looks over as first lady Laura Bush says goodbye to cheerleaders from Crawford High School, Sunday Jan. 2, 2005 in Waco Texas.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050102/480/tcra10101021627

[Straight Shooter]

37. I don't hate him. I absolutely loathe him.

But I don't hate NYT. I merely have total contempt for their collusion with the bush administration in the Attack on Iraq.

It's amazing how NYT can puff up and point their finger at DU as a site of bush hate, when if they would only do their jobs and be responsible journalists, it might put some reins on bush's grandiose schemes of creating an American Empire. After all, it's people like bush who inspire people like Ann Coulter, with her asinine comment about the NYT building as an appropriate target for terrorists.

NYT, clean up your own damn back yard.

[Octafish]

38. What lostnfound said.

I don't hate people. I hate what some people do. I certainly hate the things liars, crooks and murderers -- like George Walker Bush -- do.

[papau]

39. I agree - and that was what I wrote to the NYT.

To the NYT editor:

There are two errors in Mr. Schwartz's description of the discussion forum called Democratic Underground. First he calls it a blog for those that hate Bush, when it is really a home, a forum, for those that "hate" shoddy media reporting that attempts to turn proofs of folks telling lies, including Bush telling lies, into he said/she said stories. And Second, it is a forum for those that tire of the mass media (including those that claim a liberal bent or are given that description by the far right neo-cons that now run our government) using a double-standard, indeed being hypocrites, in the effort given and the words used in exposing error on the GOP side of the political divide.

There is also the false impression given by the article as to the level of thought, indeed the level of analysis, that is found at the Democratic Underground site. My own observation is that mixed in with the many rants letting off steam are many thoughtful University Level/Professional Society level discussions of the errors in the GOP policies.

Schwartz used the hot button word "hate" which casts doubt on any points made in the posts at DU. Not that hate is a bad thing per see, as the "hate the sin, love the sinner mantra" makes clear. In this case, hating the destruction of our Constitution and our economy and destruction of the signs of our compassion in our government programs and our foreign policy may well be a "good." But that is not made clear in the article. Indeed the article attempts to demean the DU discussion of a very flawed man with too much power, albeit a discussion that uses the same shorthand phrases that grace the pages of the NYT when it is selling the latest leader is that is evil incarnate that we must go to war with, as tin-foil hat folks hating someone irrationally.

I believe that if you spend some time on the DU website, you will find many folks that feel more grief over the consequences of Bush policies, than anger with the perpetrator.

======================================================
Thanks to Du for some great phrasing in this thread that I used in the above. I know the NYT never publishes these types of letters - but it felt good sending it off!

:-)

[FizzFuzz]

46. great letter! I hope more people with well thought out responses to NYT

write to them. Lot of great rebuttals here, too good to be hidden on one thread that the NYT will never see.

Your first paragraph alone packs a great punch of logic!!

although I do have a little argument with the "hate the sin, love the sinner" mantra, as I just finished yakking about. ;)

[Octafish]

57. Agree wholeheartedly! A great letter!

Corporate McPravda cares little for oppposing viewpoints. As you both have indicated, they will probably miss the opportunity of actually informing the readers with papau's letter. Too bad for them and us. Our Democracy depends on an informed citizenry. Then, again, that's why the Mighty Whorelitzer does all it can to hide facts and create legends...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

41. i hate bush and stupid conspiracy theories

almost equally!

[JHB]

42. "Bush-hating" is like "anti-business"...

...insufficiently enthusiastic cheerleading is considered opposition.

[FizzFuzz]

43. Frankly, most faiths teach tolerance, not hate.

The Christians don't own the rights to teachings of loving kindness. It's just that most other religions don't demand that followers continuously trumpet their humble yet superior world-view.

Teachings of "hate the sin not the sinner" are dishonest, IMHO, because they use moral judgementalism and pious self-congratulation as an excuse to sidestep admission of normal feelings and pretend that such feelings can be encouraged yet shunted toward some pigeonholed aspect of another person while somehow managing to respect the whole person. Naive at best, a smokescreen disguising impulses toward factionalist violence at worst, it calls for an unhealthy splitting of the personality. Even a basic understanding of Psychology realizes that this kind of willful lying to the self, fracturing and hiding one's motives from oneself leads down a negative spiral.

It's normal to hate someone so dishonest and wantonly destructive particularly when we as individual citizens, or even as a large group of like minded dissenters, seem to have little sway over his policies.

I hate Bush and I realize the specific "hate" part of the equation comes from the feeling of powerlessness to stop him. What I find I need to work on is dealing with how I feel about friends who support or refuse to look at the facts of this disasterous regime. Also, how do I deal with my feelings of powerlessness living in a society ajudicated by a media that avoids truth.

[Sparkly]

45. "an online gathering place for people who hate the Bush administration."

They say that like it's a BAD thing. ;)

[rocktivity]

48. I think Skinner himself should write the Times

point out all the things DU has called them, such as Lisa Bumiller, and wonder if he detects the prescene of a green-eyed monster!

:headbang:
rocknation

[arkie dem]

55. No love lost here

What's there not to hate?

[Batgirl]

47. I'm running out of fingers

How do I hate thee? Let me count the ways.
I hate thee to the depth and breadth and height
of a throbbing tooth, rotten at it’s root and
begging to be wrenched from my lower jaw
I hate thee to the level of every brush pile’s
Most quiet need, to be cleared from your fake ranch by camera light.
I hate thee freely, as your cohorts strive for no-bid contracts.
I hate thee purely, as you turn from body counts.
I hate thee with the passion put to use
In fresh grief over missing limbs and flag draped coffins.
I hate thee with a contempt that seems to grow
With your every self satisfied smirk. I hate thee in your falseness,
incompetence, and preemptive war based on lies; and it’s looking
like I shall continue hating thee even better with each unnecessary death.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

49. NYT is keeping good company: NY Post.....................

John Podhoretz claims in a Dec 28 editorial that folks at liberal sites like DU and DailyKos are "Democratic Party bottom-feeders" and routinely spew anti-soldier vitriol.

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/37291.htm

Hey NYT, I guess you've found your intellectual level.

[Lerkfish]

50. Bush is the Antichrist...therefore "hate" is appropriate for a christian

although maybe hate is such a good word so much as "leery".

[fortyfeetunder]

51. Is the H word a catalyst for a FBI investigation?

Mr. Schwartz's editorial, albeit lame, makes me wonder if him touting DU as the forum for * haters as a catalyst for getting the FBI to investigate our activities.

Would not be surprised if we had some "undercover" activity from agents. The thought of >60K people hating * makes 'em wonder if we are a bunch of evil DUers. Ya know, the new terraists in town.

It has this smell of McCarthyism: there can be no dissent of the current administration's policies.

I'll have to write NYT and specify the hate is not of the man itself, it's the policies.

[annabanana]

64. Hi Agent Mike!

:hi:

[imabadman]

53. Life is too short

There is no time for hate.

[lostnfound]

56. You've ALL written wonderful responses

from the 'how do I hate thee?' to the LTTE to want-to-see-him-locked-up-in-jail-for-justice to the numerous short and to the point simple replies.

Thanks, that was cool. I think they ran the gamut. As they should:
Because this forum is not about hating one man..Isn't it simple for the NYT to label it as such? DU is about believing that governments should work for the people -- all people -- and be responsive and accountable to them. Our indignation and anger is based on the reality that this administration is working for a tiny minority and is indifferent to collateral human suffering.

Responsive and accountable to the people. Focus on THAT, why don't you, NYT?!

[FizzFuzz]

60. Why not copy and send this whole thread to the NYT?

including your "wrap up" comments? Just a thought, maybe a silly one, but there IS alot of incisive commentary here.

[SmokingJacket]

58. Good letter. Thanks. nt

[Eric J in MN]

61. The journalist wrote this is a place for people "who hate the Bush Admin"

he didn't write people who hate George W. Bush personally.

[A Brand New World]

62. I hate, loath, detest and just generally don't like *. Sorry can't help

it. Have ever since I set eyes on the creature, back in 1999. I doubt that those feelings will ever change, considering the damage he's done to the U.S. and the world.

[Doctor_J]

63. Let's compare the hate here to that over at Freeretardic

sheesh. Soon there won't be anything lef to read that isn't written by Bushwhores.

[neebob]

65. I don't hate him, either

It's his falsificatiousness and despicabilitude. Not to mention the moronicality. (I came here from whitehouse.org.)

[Skittles]

67. I hate Bush

and I refuse to apologize for it

[Jackie97]

68. I don't know if I hate Bush or not.

I often say I do, but hate is such a strong word. It seems to me that hatred(for me)would be something so strong that it eats me up alive. I don't see W as worth that.

Certain people that the NYT mentions are villians. They should be portraying Bush that way too. The funny thing is that some actually think the NYT is a liberal paper. LOL!

[Bake]

69. I guess I'm a h8ter too!

Why? Because, by definition, I feel an extreme revulsion to:

His ideas (if you can call them that),
His ACTIONS (most of all!),
His disgraceful mangling of the English language,
His smirking ugly-ass face,
Did I mention his smirk????
His ideology,
His arrogance,
His "disciples,"
His perversion of the Christian faith,

OK, I hate his sorry ass. I admit it.

Bake

[spanone]

70. Dispise maybe, hate? Yea, maybe.