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Without the tinfoil hat or over simplification: Why are we really in Iraq?

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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:21 PM
Original message
Without the tinfoil hat or over simplification: Why are we really in Iraq?
I am having a really hard time with this one. It it really "the oil" and bushCo was so naive that they thought they would just walk in and install their puppet government? That seems to simple.

Are they stirring up an Islamic enemy for a perpetual right-wing "war on terror" to hold on to power for years to come? That sounds to sinister.

I do lean toward the "too stupid" to realize what they were doing theory, but the whole thing is maddening to me. Are they really that callous and cavalier about human life?
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. Peak Oil & Petrodollar Hegemony.
Any Questions?
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. without the over simplification please...
I don't see how this war really accomplishes anything along these lines. Was bushCo just foolish in thinking they could take over and control the oil?
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Nobody said it was gonna work, but those are the reasons.
Go read about the PNAC too...
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Debs Donating Member (723 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
31. By establishing
What they call a footprint in the Middle East, its not just about Iraq's oil its about the regions oil. The bases in Saudi Arabia were both too small and becoming problematic. We are now building 14 permanent military bases in Iraq. We will be able to have 30,000 troops there at all times and raise that to 100,000 on a moments notice. The intimidation factor alone makes that worth the war to the BFEE. Also dont discount the ideological stupidity of these people who dispite the near universally disasterous results of neoliberal economic reforms in every country that has had them forced down their throat, an attempt to privitize Iraqs industries and force this neoliberal model on them to showcase their brand of economic darwinism as a panecea for all economic ills.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Global Hegemony, period
where oil just a part of it. be it a major part.
they're in a hurry because of peak-oil.
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. There is not as much oil left as we are lead to believe.
The invasion and occupation of Iraq was to establish a permanent , large military presence in the gulf region in order to secure (steal) the oil reserves when the shortage reaches critical levels.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
4. Several reasons:
1. The Bush family's irrational hatred
2. Preserving Daddy Bush's legacy
3. The ideological lunacy of the PNAC crowd
4. The desire for more strategic bases near oil fields (Saudi getting
too hot)
5. A war to consolidate power, focus attention away from the kleptocracy and justify massive giveaways to corporations, especially military suppliers
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dave123williams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
5. It's all about the Benjamins...

As with any other war, it's all about the resources you'll be grabbing if you win. Land, oil, treasure; whatever. At the end of the day, war is simple. It's about taking everything that the other guy has.

If you buy in to the tissue-paper thin rationale of 'spreading democracy' just remember; it's being done at the point of a gun...so, I'd say that it's probably not really freedom we're injecting there.

Occam's razor really applies here; the thing that's most likely to be true probably is. In this case, the 2nd largest oil reserves on Earth are in play, but this administration constantly denies that all that wealth isn't what this is about.

There's two possibilities then; either they're lying, or telling the truth. With their track-record, which do you think it is?

Oh; you're assuming that the administration consideres 'brown people' as co-equal human beings; they don't.
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Harlequin Donating Member (179 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
6. why are we in Iraq.
I've heard it described as a method of "bleeding" terrorist attacks away from our domestic soil... i.e., let our soldiers take bullets instead of our civilians, with a low-intensity conflict like Israel in Iraq acting as a lightning rod for the terrorism we foment. Israel/Palestinian authority, while terrible, was generally acceptable to the world at the "a few lives here, a few lives there" level. So it may well be with Iraq.
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. You don't actually buy that load of crap do you?
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. not me...
most of the people fighting us in Iraq would never have been fighting us if we didn't bomb their families.

they certainly weren't going to head to the US to kill us
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TaleWgnDg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. A wedgie board told him so! n/t
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. To summarize that FOX news argument, "so we don't have to fight
them over HERE!" LOL
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Harlequin Donating Member (179 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. Oh, also
there's the fall of the house of the Royal Family of Saud, which is increasingly unstable -- (how many Saudis were on the 9/11 planes?) -- and I've heard of neocon Jewish arguments of developing Iraq as a keystone in Middle East in order to help prevent another holocaust. These are the people who are driving American foreign policy, by the way. If you haven't visited the website for the Committee for a New American Century website, it's encouraged at this point.

Apparently the invasion plans for Iraq had been developed more than 20 years ago... Mr. B-S- & BushCo. couldn't make a cohesive argument. Regrettably, slightly less than half the electorate voted for him (I believe both were stolen) and got him into office nonetheless.
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tk2kewl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. "help prevent another holocaust"
that sounds like wignut propaganda to inflame Jewish zealots to me

more black/white good/evil rhetoric for religious fundamentalists
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ThorsHammer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
28. I can see your point, BUT we have also stirred up many more attacks
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fob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
8. per Rummy: There are more targets in Iraq
Translated; We can waltz in and get the oil, depose his old buddy hussein before he spills any beans, plus we can "restore" bush*s wimp daddy's name, and war presidents tend to be re-selected. It's a no lose proposition for bush*co.
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sportndandy Donating Member (710 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
9. Simple plan requires simple explanation.
The fact that the plan did not take into account reality on the ground doesn't change the plan. The plan was to:

1. Give US taxpayer money to war-profiteers.

2. Suppress US rights at home to create an atmosphere where re-election is inevitable.

3. Win re-election, and then more of #1 above.


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IowaGuy Donating Member (515 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
10. Ask yourself this...
If there was no oil in Iraq...would we, or any of "the coalition of the willing", be there? I'm afraid it is just that simple.

Sadam was dumping a lot of oil on the world market, to prop up his own sorry ass...and it was making it difficult for the other players to get the price they wanted (i.e. oil @ $22/bbl when Clinton left office - now vacillating between $42-45/bbl).

Bottom line is we're tradin' our blood to maximize profits for a few in the oil distribution\production markets - the rest is just prpoganda and spin to fool the ignorant.
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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
12. It's not JUST the Oil - also the location AND pricing oil in US Dollars
The Iraq war was about more than just oil.

It was about a strategic geopolitical location. It provides a great place to have permanent military bases for US dominance of the Middle East. Who needs all those bases in Europe now that the 'red menace' is no more? The Caspian region and the Middle East are the areas that will be critical to control as oil (energy) really controls the world and the economies of nations.

Not only that, but Saddam was considering pricing his oil in Euros rather than US dollars. Anything that would undermine the US Dollar as the global standard and the global reserve currency cannot be tolerated.

Now Iran is also proposing to price it's oil in Euros rather than Dollars. I suspect that if our military were not already overextended we would be going to war there too, and for that reason. Not for any (real in Iran's case) WMD, not merely for oil, but for US economic hegemony.
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. They May Still Attempt An Iran Petro Grab, Even In Our Current Situation
Nearly all of Iran's oil is within a 3 hr. M1 ride from the Iraq border, in flat (tank) country. My bet on how this will play out is that a 'Gulf of Tonkin' will be manufactured and this small part of Iran occupied, with no real intention of moving beyond the Zagros mountains to the population centers.

As a response to the original post, yes, they did think it would be as easy as kicking out Saddam, installing a client state, and withdrawing into permanent bases ala post WW2 Europe. They were victims of group-think, ignoring and discrediting any data that did not support their concept on how things would go.

And this is my biggest worry about this bunch. Not only do they make the wrong decision, they execute the wrong decision poorly.

It is about the oil. It has always been about the oil. Let's face it, the fact that we are on reason 3 for the war is an insult to those of use with some intelligence (WMD->Terraists->Democracy).








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Megawatt Donating Member (118 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
39. Off the subject slightly but ...
Do you know of any good books which would help me better understand currency valuatons , how and why currency rates of exchange fluctuate in relation to one another. What are the macro forces that drive these rates.

Secondly a simple book (I'm simple minded), on the mechanics of international trade? For example if I wanted to import Mexican beer (like my fav - Corona) - I would assume that the person who owns Corona brewery - buys his hops in pesos , pays his brewmaster in pesos, since he lives in Mexico - he wants his profit in pesos so he can go and buy food, pay for his housing etc in the currency of the country he lives in. Thus I would think he would price his Coronas in pesos and leave it up to the buyer to accumulate (through currency exchanges) the necessary pesos. Thus the owner is protected from currency risk - but maybe I'm wrong .

Anyway - if anyone knows of a good book to help me understand the basics I'd appreciate it. ;)
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:30 PM
Original message
Saddam was about to move to the Euro
which would of been catastrophic for the
American oil industry .

an important tidbit not to be forgotten .

A lot of the posturing is defensive paranoid
money grabbing by American Corporatists vs.
foreign corporatists .

The people are the ones to fight and die
for those hold hold the reigns of power
throughout the world . All we are to them
regardless of where we live (worker/consumers)
just numbers expendable for greed and power .

As long as we allow Corporations to tell us
who to fear/hate/love we will remain divided
and easily manipulated .
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
15. (Petro)dollar Hegemony
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illflem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
13. My feeling is among other things
junior had to make it look like the war on terror was marching forward the only way most Americans know, brute force, after Afghanistan appeared to be going nowhere.
I think they truly felt it was going to be a cake walk in Iraq simply because they didn't look close enough.
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
17. I think it is a little bit of everything.
It breaks up the oil market. It provides an excuse to give away tons of borrowed money to military contractors. It allows Dubya to get rid of Saddam, and gives the Neo-cons a chance to add another Democracy to the Middle East.

The only reason not to do it is because it's an unprovoked war. The aforementioned reasons were all deemed more important.
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critchmj Donating Member (89 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
20. I believe there were 2 reasons we went in.
1) Is the oil. Cheney wanted the control of the oil and bring OPEC to heel. If we hadn't gotten "bogged" down in the occupation, Iran would have been next for their oil supplies and then Saudi Arabia would been brought into line.

2)Wolfowitz, Feith, Perle, the neocons in the Pentagon wanted to protect Israel, or fight their war against the Arab States. We would have had "regime" change in Syria at some stage.

Cheney, Rumsfeld, et. al. had wanted to overthrow Sadaam after Iraq I, but daddy Bush said no for the very thing that we see happening now. The boy just isn't too bright and went along with his daddy's friends. After all they had bailed him out of every mess he'd gotten in before.

And yes they were all too stupid to realize that daddy was right.
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IowaGuy Donating Member (515 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Skeptical about bringin "OPEC to heel"....
Bushco is pretty friendly with most of OPEC (except for Venezuela, who keeps messin' all of 'em up by actually sharing the profits with its people) - its mor about his buddies becoming a full partner with them and makin' the pie more expensive so they can all rip the profits off for themselves.
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
25. Shrub has a need to prove something to his daddy
Edited on Mon Jan-03-05 01:59 PM by burn the bush
that's where i think it started. He has an extreme inferiority complex that revolves around his father. By finishing the job his father started, shrub thinks that he proves to his father that he is not only successful, but also tops his father. Added to that is that Saddam threatened papa shrub, and it is the cowboy way not to let people get away with that.
Then Cheney realizing how lucrative that could be moneywise & politcally...well there went the ball rolling.


on edit I guess this does not answer your question as it is only my opinion and that may be tin foil biased.
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dkofos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
26. he tried to kill my daddy
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Kipper58 Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
27. This graphic may give a small hint
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. Another Graphic, Another Hint
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. Good map, thanks -- too bad not a jpg or gif! n/t
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Kber Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
29. My personal theory
is that Cheney and co. realized during the first Iraq war that the Holy Grail was in Iraq, but were pulled out before they could go get it. The 2nd war (and total dismantaling of the country) was a pretext for getting their hands on it. (That explains the bogus search for "WMDs".) In the near future, they will either find it or realize it has been moved (maybe to Syria?) and will find a reason to pull out of Iraq completely to refocus their search elsewhere.

But you said no tin foil hats. Sorry!
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
30. Petrodollars vs. the OPEC Euro. An oil currency war
Edited on Mon Jan-03-05 03:13 PM by Tinoire
Petrodollars vs. the OPEC Euro. An oil currency war. News totally suppressed in the US.

Notice that none of the oil-producing countries get on our blacklist until they indicate that they're going to move to the Euro. Iraq, Iran, and Venezuela are prime examples. This is the reason the EU isn't bombarding Iraq right along with us. Their governments aren't any more moral than ours despite the grand gesticulating. They willingly, happily went to Gulf War I but now that the Euro is in stiff competition with the dollar, ah now that's a different story.

We lose. There's no way we can win this thing. A graceful transition is what was called for... an acceptance that all empires must end but instead we went to war in a mad dash to save a worthless dollar that depends being the dominating currency of OPEC for its survival.

During all of this hypocritical fun, as you watch the New World being ordered, arranged before your very eyes, they can't agree on who gets what because the neocons never had any intention of divvying it up equally with the other first world powers - hence all of the internal squabbling and old soul-gazing buddies now becoming bitter enemies.

This is why with few exceptions Democrats voted for this war and the party establishment would only support & accept candidates who were for it. This is why the anti-war Left needs to be purged- we stand in their dreams of raising the empire back up on the back of innocent people.

And you can't blame it all on Bush. Saddaam was convincing the other OPEC nations to move to the Euro and this is the main reason Clinton bombed the hell out of him.


Hope that isn't overly simplistic.

That's my take on it...
===

SADDAM'S UNFORGIVABLE SIN

Iraq has been accused of many crimes, but topping the list is the unforgivable sin of trading oil for Euros instead of American Dollars.


The dollar is the world reserve currency. This gives a huge subsidy to the US economy because if a country wants to hold lots of dollars in reserve they must supply the US with goods and services in return for those dollars. In return the US creates a bit more credit. The more dollars there are circulating outside the US, the more goods and services the US has imported virtually for free. This is how the US manages to run a huge trade deficit year after year without apparently any major economic consequences. No other country can run such a large trade deficit with impunity. It is in effect getting a massive interest-free loan from the rest of the world.

One of Europe's primary objectives, if not the primary objective, of setting up the Euro was to try and get some of this free lunch for Europe. If the Euro became a major reserve currency, or better still replaced the dollar as the major reserve currency, then Europe too could get something for nothing.

This would be a disaster for the US. Not only would they lose their subsidy, which has been increasing in size and in importance to American economic well being as the years have gone by, but countries switching to Euro reserves from dollar reserves would start spending their dollars in the US. In other words the US would have to start paying its debts to other countries. As countries converted their dollar assets into Euro assets the US property and stock market bubbles would, without doubt, burst. The Federal Reserve would no longer be able to print more money to reflate the bubble as it is currently openly considering doing, There is, however, one major obstacle to this happening: OIL! Oil is of course by far the most important commodity traded internationally, and if you want to buy oil on the international markets you usually have to have dollars.

Until recently all OPEC countries agreed to sell their oil for dollars only. This meant that oil importing countries, like Japan, needed to hold dollar reserves in order to be able to buy oil. So long as this remained the case, the Euro was unlikely to become the major reserve currency. There is not a lot of point to stockpiling Euros if every time you need to buy oil you have to change them into dollars. But in November 2000 Iraq switched to the euro, with potentially perilous consequences for the US. Only one country has the right to print dollars: the US! If OPEC were to decide to accept euros only for its oil, then American economic dominance would be over. Not only would Europe not need dollars anymore, but Japan which imports over 80% of its oil from the Middle East would have to convert most of its dollar assets to Euro assets (Japan is of course the major subsidiser of the US). The US on the other hand, being the world's largest oil importer would have to acquire Euro reserves, i.e. it would have to run a trade surplus. The conversion from trade deficit to trade surplus would have to be done at a time when its property and stock market prices were collapsing and its own oil supplies were contracting. It would be a very painful conversion; potentially disastrous.

===


Speaking to British MPs, Prime Minister Tony Blair was just as explicit: "Let me deal with the conspiracy theory idea that this is somehow to do with oil. There is no way whatever if oil were the issue that it would not be infinitely simpler to cut a deal with Saddam...." (London Times 1/15/03).

(snip)

... the need to dominate oil from Iraq is also deeply intertwined with the defense of the dollar. Its current strength is supported by OPEC's requirement (secured by a secret agreement between the US and Saudi Arabia) that all OPEC oil sales be denominated in dollars. This requirement is currently threatened by the desire of some OPEC countries to allow OPEC oil sales to be paid in euros.

(snip)

The chief reason why dollars are more than pieces of green paper is that countries all over the world need them for purchases, principally of oil. This requires them in addition to maintain dollar reserves to protect their own currency; and these reserves, when invested, help maintain the current high levels of the US securities markets.

As Henry Liu has written vividly in the online Asian Times (4/11/02),

"World trade is now a game in which the US produces dollars and the rest of the world produces things that dollars can buy. The world's interlinked economies no longer trade to capture a comparative advantage; they compete in exports to capture needed dollars to service dollar-denominated foreign debts and to accumulate dollar reserves to sustain the exchange value of their domestic currencies. To prevent speculative and manipulative attacks on their currencies, the world's central banks must acquire and hold dollar reserves in corresponding amounts to their currencies in circulation. The higher the market pressure to devalue a particular currency, the more dollar reserves its central bank must hold. This creates a built-in support for a strong dollar that in turn forces the world's central banks to acquire and hold more dollar reserves, making it stronger. This phenomenon is known as dollar hegemony, which is created by the geopolitically constructed peculiarity that critical commodities, most notably oil, are denominated in dollars. Everyone accepts dollars because dollars can buy oil. The recycling of petro-dollars is the price the US has extracted from oil-producing countries for US tolerance of the oil-exporting cartel since 1973.

(snip)

The Unstated US Goal of Preserving Dollar Hegemony Against Competition from the Euro

As noted in a recent article by W. Clark, "The Real But Unspoken Reasons for the Iraq War", the OPEC underpinning for the US dollar has shown signs of erosion in recent years. Iraq was one of the first OPEC countries, in 2000, to convert its reserves from dollars to euros. At the time a commentator for Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty predicted that Saddam's political act "will cost Iraq millions in lost revenue." In fact Iraq has profited handsomely from the 17 percent gain in the value of the euro against the dollar in that time.

Other countries have gradually been climbing on to the euro bandwagon. An article in the Iran Financial News, 8/25/02, revealed that more than half of Iran's Forex Reserve Fund assets had been converted from dollars to euros. In 2002 China began diversifying its currency reserves away from dollars into euros. According to Business Week (2/17/03) Russia's Central Bank in the past year has doubled its euro holdings to 20 percent of its $48 billion foreign exchange reserves. And for a very good reason, according to its First Deputy Chairman Oleg Vyugin: "Returns on dollar instruments are very low now. Other currency instruments pay more."

(snip)

If not deterred, OPEC could follow suit. Libya has been urging for some time that oil be priced in euros rather than dollars. Javad Yarjani, an Iranian senior OPEC official, told a European Union seminar in April 2002 that, despite the problems raised by such a conversion, "I believe that OPEC will not discount entirely the possibility of adopting euro pricing and payments in the future."

Meanwhile Hugo Chavez has been taking Venezuelan oil out of the petrodollar economy by bartering oil directly for commodities from thirteen other third world countries. Although this has not yet qualified Venezuela for official membership in Bush's "axis of evil," the heavy hand of the Bush Administration in the recent coup attempt against Chavez was only too obvious. (See "Venezuela Coup Linked to Bush Team," London Observer, 4/21/02, for details about the roles of US officials Elliot Abrams, Otto Reich, and John Negroponte.)

http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~pdscott/iraq.html

===
Ari Fleischer Press Briefing of February 6, 2003:

Q Since you speak for the President, we have no access to him, can you categorically deny that the United States will take over the oil fields when we win this war? Which is apparently obvious and you're on your way and I don't think you doubt your victory. Oil -- is it about oil?

MR. FLEISCHER: Helen, as I've told you many times, if this had anything to do with oil, the position of the United States would be to lift the sanctions so the oil could flow. This is not about that. This is about saving lives by protecting the American people....

Q There are reports that we've divided up the oil already, divvied it up with the Russians and French and so forth. Isn't that true?....

MR. FLEISCHER: No, there's no truth to that, that we would divide up the oil fields.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/02/20030206-13.html

====

An extremely interesting news item last October in Alexander's oilandgas.com revealed that the US was planning not only for the post-war exploitation of Iraq's oil reserves, but for Iraq's relationship to OPEC as well:

    30-10-02 The US State Department has pushed back its planned meeting with Iraqi opposition leaders on exploiting Iraq's oil and gas reserves after a US military offensive removes Saddam Hussein from power to early December. According to a source at the State Department, all the desired participants are not yet available.

    "The Bush administration wants to have a working group of 12 to 20 people focused on Iraqi oil and gas to be able to recommend to an interim government ways of restoring the petroleum sector following a military attack in order to increase oil exports to partially pay for a possible US military occupation government -- further fuelling the view that controlling Iraqi oil is at the heart of the Bush campaign to replace Hussein with a more compliant regime.

    "According to the source, the working group will not only prepare recommendations for the rehabilitation of the Iraqi petroleum sector post-Hussein, but will address questions regarding the country's continued membership in OPEC and whether it should be allowed to produce as much as possible or be limited by an OPEC quota, and it will consider whether to honour contracts made between the Hussein government and foreign oil companies, including the $ 3.5 billion project to be carried out by Russian interests to redevelop Iraq's oilfields, which, along with numerous other development projects, has been thwarted by United Nations sanctions.



      ==

      "Oil firms wait as Iraq crisis unfolds" by Robert Collier, San Francisco Chronicle,9/29/02:

      `Iraqi opposition leaders suggest that unless France, Russia and China support the U.S. line in the Security Council, their oil companies may find themselves blacklisted.

      `"We will examine all the contracts that Saddam Hussein has made, and we will cancel all those that are not in the interest of the Iraqi people and will reopen bidding on them," said Faisal Qaragholi, operations officer of the Iraqi National Congress, the opposition coalition based in London that plays a central role in the American anti-Hussein strategy.


      ====

      ... the true issue here is not just access to Iraq oil, but control over it. As Michael Parenti reminds us, in 1998, when the UN allowed Iraq to increase its exports into an already over-supplied oil market, this was perceived as a threat to US interests:

      `The San Francisco Chronicle (22 February 1998) headlined its story "IRAQ'S OIL POSES THREAT TO THE WEST." In fact, Iraqi crude poses no threat to "the West" only to Western oil investors. If Iraq were able to reenter the international oil market, the Chronicle reported, "it would devalue British North Sea oil, undermine American oil production and---much more important---it would destroy the huge profits which the United States (read, US oil companies) stands to gain from its massive investment in Caucasian oil production, especially in Azerbaijan."'


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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
32. I agree with most every thing said so far, but it gets worse
Iowa Guy in post 10 said-

"Sadam was dumping a lot of oil on the world market, to prop up his own sorry ass...and it was making it difficult for the other players to get the price they wanted (i.e. oil @ $22/bbl when Clinton left office - now vacillating between $42-45/bbl)."

That's true, but think back to 1998. What happened? That was the year that Clinton managed to get rid of the U.S. Budget deficit,(1) and then what happened? (2) The U.S. started buying back some of our 5.5 Trillion Dollar Debt. So what did that do to the price of Oil?

By buying back debt, which pushed the Dollar to record highs, it also pushed the price of a Barrel of Crude Oil to just under $10.00 a Barrel, (Mar 19, 1998)(3) OUCH! :hurts:At least ouch for TEXAS, which has a average production cost of $20 to $22 dollars a Barrel.

So as you can probably now see, the U.S. Budget in SURPLUS was very bad for the Bush family, and ALL his Oil CEO buddy's. Another problem with 7-8 years of relative peace and "limited wars" under Clinton, and the end of the Cold War, was that the "Military Industrial Complex" was starting to go broke. If you think back, you'll remember all the "Defense" Corporation mergers (Martin-Marietta/Lockheed, McDonald-Douglas/Boeing, etc.) started to happen in the mid 1990's.

Like it or not, if we are going to import 60%+ of our Crude Oil and basically turn our Military into an "Oil Protection Force," we need to make sure that the "Defense" Corporation don't go out of business, or worse, have to export the weapon manufacturing Jobs to country's like China, that could, in one bad diplomatic incident, confiscate the weapons we would need to fight such a move.

So what did he (they) do? Biggest Tax Cut in history and started bombing other countries to justify massive military spending. This quickly pushed us back into debt and caused the Dollar to fall almost 65% (against the Euro). "Mission Accomplished!" :crazy:

Another thing most people missed, was a few weeks before "Mission Accomplished" Photo Opp, Bush went to N. Ireland to meet with Tony Blair. (6) The next week, the New York Stock exchange stopped reporting the price for "Arab Light Sweet Crude." (4) Why? because as the Iraqi Occupiers, we owned those fields, so they just rolled "Arab Light" and WTI ("West Texas Intermediary") together.

I know some of you are shaking your heads at the numbers I just quoted , so here ya go, click links below. I really like the BBC Online link and the other links on that page (almost all of them still work), I really like the link called "The trillion dollar surplus." Oh those were the days.

I have more links, but I'll let anyone that wants to chalange my numbers, look for them first, It only seems fair.

(1) Business: The Economy -- Exorcising the US national debt
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/the_economy/380923.stm>

(2) Business: The Economy -- US to buy back national debt
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/the_economy/411973.stm>

Go to 3/19/98 to see $9.81 Per Brl.
Go to 4/8/03 to see note about "Arab Light"
(3)and (4) <http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/crude1.html>

(5) <http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/historic/hpetroleum2.htm#CrudeOil>

"Tony Blair is to meet US President George W Bush in Northern Ireland next week for talks on the Iraq war".
(6) <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2918733.stm>
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Annus Horribilis Donating Member (140 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
34. Terra!
Iraq did 9/11!!!
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
35. it's about the oil
sorry, but in the case of this war, oversimplification is much more accurate than the ridiculous official line, which says nothing about the prime motivating factor: oil.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
36. ask the people who sent us there
I'm still not sure of which of the 4 or 5 reasons it was.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
37. Clinton left a full treasury. Bush needed a surefire way to loot it
A war always works, and this one has a bonus..Oil for his oil-buddies, and fat government contracts to his other-buddies.

Once the treasure is looted, the rest is easy.. No money means that social programs can more easily be gutted, because people are gulllible and can be persuaded to believe that we "can no longer afford" to be decent to the poor and elderly. They are also more ready to accept cuts to education, and heaathcare.

Republicans are experts at this. Every time there is some money in the treasury, they manage to weasel their way in, and steal it all..
It's like the sun coming up in the morning and setting at night.

By doing this, they actually ensure a future term for themselves too, beacuse when people are finally fed up enough to toss them out, a democrat will HAVE to come in and "be tough" to get a grip on the mess that was left behind. Through hard work, he/she will rebuild the country's wealth, but lots of important people will lose some lucre along the way, and another republican will play "Who's 'yer buddy", and will get in again... rinse & repeat :(

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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #37
50. Exactly, PLUS Theirs MORE!
After all the Massive UNFUNDED Spending, when the U.S. Government is just about to collapse under the weight, We (Democrats) Boot'em out of office and are left holding the bag, i.e., this forces the Democrats to raise TAXES! :bounce:

Not because we want to, but because we have to, see how that works? :crazy:

Then some JACKASS Republican (like *:mad:) comes along, an spends his whole election campaign telling the American Sheep, oh, I mean, the "Undecided Voter," that Democrats just LOVE to raise Taxes. :freak: I love that story.

:evilgrin:But don't worry, I personally think (and it looks like a lot CFO's and CEO's agree), that the U.S. Economy is going to collapse in 1-2 years. If * gets any of his Wacky plans through the Congress, it could be sooner. Check out these gems that were never reported on CNN or Fox "news"

Rampant Insider Selling Raises Red Flags - AP Reports Major Corporate Execs, Including Some From the Homebuilding Industry Are Dumping Stocks - Serious Predictor of a Coming Crash - Special Commentary by Michael C. Ruppert

In a pump and dump operation, those who can influence stock prices issue glowing reports which cause investors to put their hard-earned dollars into a stock right before it collapses. This is a wealth transfer from poor or middle class folks to the absurdly wealthy. Immediately prior to the stock's collapse, the guys on top cash out and then the price plummets. The bad guys have the cash and the little investors and pension funds have nearly worthless or severely devalued paper.

This AP story is especially alarming for a number of reasons.
<clip>

Rampant Insider Selling Raises Red Flags

By Rachel Beck
Associated Press
Dec. 14, 2004

NEW YORK - Talk about a double standard. While corporate leaders tout the benefits of investors owning their stocks, many executives seem to be running for the doors themselves.

Selling of shares by insiders - which includes executives and other top officers and directors at a company - has been rampant in recent months, with sales rising to their highest level in more than four years in November.

While no one can pinpoint an exact reason for that run-up, the implication is troubling since big insider selling is often considered bearish for the overall market as well as for individual stocks.

more at: <http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/121504_insider_selling.shtml>
or
"Japan Threatens Huge Dollar Sell-Off"

Heather Stewart,
The London Observer
Sunday December 5, 2004

<http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,6903,1366578,00.html>
or this

Opec sharply reduces dollar exposure

By Steve Johnson and Javier Blas in London
The Financial Times

Published: December 6 2004 21:12
Last updated: December 6 2004 21:12

Oil exporters have sharply reduced their exposure to the US dollar over the past three years, according to data from the Bank for International Settlements.

Members of the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries have cut the proportion of deposits held in dollars from 75 per cent in the third quarter of 2001 to 61.5 per cent.

Middle Eastern central banks have reportedly switched reserves from dollars to euros and sterling to avoid incurring losses as the dollar has fallen and prepare for a shift away from pricing oil exports in dollars alone.
<clip> <http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/120804_opec_dollar.shtml>

:party:and finally, my favorite this week, from Forbes.com <http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2005/0110/036_print.html>

A Word From A Dollar Bear
Robert Lenzner Daniel Kruger , 01.10.05

Warren Buffett's vote of no confidence in U.S. fiscal policies is up to $20 billion.
The dollar has fallen savagely against the euro for the past three years, and the trade deficit is running $55 billion a month. Is the currency rout over? Can the trade deficit be fixed with a rise in interest rates or an upward revaluation of the Chinese currency? Warren Buffett, the world's most visible dollar bear, says the answer to both these questions is no. His bet against the dollar, reported at $12 billion in his last annual report (for Dec. 31, 2003), has gotten all the bigger. Now his Berkshire Hathaway has a $20 billion bet in favor of the euro, the pound and six other foreign currencies.
<clip>
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
38. You should check this out
http://www.laweekly.com/ink/printme.php?eid=51202

In short, Karen Kwiatkowski presents three reasons for invading Iraq:

1. The need for American contracts in Iraq once sanctions were lifted - highly unlikely if Saddam retained power
2. Need for new staging theater in the Middle East due to strained relations with Saudi Arabia
3. Iraqi oil traded since 2000 for euros instead of dollars as part of the U.N. Oil-for-Food program, thus weakening the dollar

It's a very good read from a Washington insider.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Going to read that but 3 is very important
Edited on Mon Jan-03-05 04:52 PM by Tinoire
3. Iraqi oil traded since 2000 for euros instead of dollars as part of the U.N. Oil-for-Food program, thus weakening the dollar

hence... the huge huge and cry about UN corruption in the Oil-for-Food program.

This is Kucinich's new battle. Exposing their real motive for going after the UN on this sham sitch hunt.

On edit: Thanks for posting it. We have so many new posters that we need all the good reads we can use!
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
40. Your question implicitely calls for oversimplification.
What is happening in Iraq is the product of an extremely complex system consisting of a near infinate set of factors.

Any attempt to assign causality will by needs be an oversimplification.
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CrispyQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
42. Check this out . . .
http://fixco1.com/bushplan.html

snip...

Following are the thirteen stages of "The Republican's Secret Sinister Plan" with a special note about a critical approaching stage:

Stage one is controlling the members of their own Republican Party.

Stage two is infiltrating, influencing, and manipulating the members of the Democratic Party.

Stage three is using the media to confuse and manipulate the American people to gain their support (votes).

Stage four is to monopolize and build existing wealth concentrations by shifting the tax burden from investors to workers, de-regulating businesses, and passing free trade deals.

Stage five is weaken the power of the federal government by selling off it's assets, limit it's revenues, and privatize it's operations.

Stage six is to weaken and ultimately dismantle the existing social safety net programs like Social Security, Medicare, Welfare, the minimum wage, the forty hour work week, unemployment benefits, etc.

Stage seven is to rig elections so they their candidate always wins despite how the American people really vote.

Stage eight is to weaken the value of the U.S. currency.

Stage nine, this is the approaching critical stage, is to bankrupt the federal and state governments so that their assets can be acquired for pennies on the dollar.

Stage ten is to divide the population of America between the "haves" (10%) and the "have-nots" (90%) and drive the "have-nots" out of America using any means necessary.

Stage eleven is to reduce the population of the earth by 90% in an effort to limit global warming and to conserve earth's limited resources.

Stage twelve is to replace human workers with smart robot workers.

Stage thirteen is to throw a big party for the 10% of the population that gets to live in the "New World Order".

==================

It's an out there theory, but I wouldn't put anything past this bunch.
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 04:15 AM
Response to Reply #42
51. I think ya lost me at Stage eleven
I think the rest of it's right, though.

The way I see it is:

11) eliminate actual "Education" for the halve not's, to make most Americans Stupid, so "they" can have Minimum Wage Slaves to work the fields and the filthy factories.:crazy:

12) don't need robot, you got Prison labor and Slaves.:toast:
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patcox2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
44. Long term global strategy to secure oil supplies for future.
The PNACers are very cynical, hardnosed, and strategic in their thinking. They want to control the middle east and its oil supplies. They beleive this is especially critical now because asia and the chinese are starting to industrialize on a european and american level and will require a larger and larger slice of the smaller and smaller fossil fuels pie.

The PNACers are kinda wierd on some of the details. They are cynically rational on the geopolitical importance of controlling the most important commodity on the planet in the face of growing demand from a potential rival, China. But they are also short-sighted in the extreme for taking this course instead of just investing heavily in new emergy technologies so we won't have to compete with the rest of the world for middle eastern oil. And they apparently live in a fantasy world with regard to the practicalities of achieving their goals - they ignore cultural differences and seem to actually beleive their pie-in-the-sky scenario of us invading and being viewed as "liberating heros," a quick election and embrace of peaceful democracy, and then some kind of miraculous middle eastern democracy-domino effect whereby all other middle eastern governments would have the scales fall from their eyes and embrace democracy after seeing the brilliant success of our "liberation" of Iraq.

So what is is, cynical, criminal asset-grab, geopolitical power play, Israeli government hijacking american foreign policy to make the middle east safe for Israel, starry-eyed dreamers honestly believing they are going to liberate the benighted arabs and bring democracy and freedom? Probably a bit of all of the above.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
45. war makes people pseudo-patriotic...as in they tend to vote for
those that look like they are in charge.

also oil.

combined with that no one really supports saddam


it seemed like a win-win situation
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bearfan454 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
46. One word - GREED
Edited on Mon Jan-03-05 05:00 PM by bearfan454
Pure and simple.

The Center for Corporate Policy’s Top Ten War Profiteers of 2004

1) AEGIS (snip)
2) BearingPoint (snip)
3) Bechtel (snip)
4) BKSH & Associates (snip)
5) CACI and Titan (snip)
6) Custer Battles (snip)
7) Halliburton (snip)
8) Lockheed Martin (snip)
9) Loral Satellite (snip)
10) Qualcomm (snip)

These people donate a LOT to the repuke crooks.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
47. Honest. We are *really* in Iraq for the oil.
The Saudis are pumping saltwater into their fields at an increasing rate. Iraq has the next biggest reserves. So we either:

1.) Lifted the sanctions on Saddam and helped him pump the oil.

2.) Learned to do with less oil.

3.) Figured a way to get the international community to kick Saddam out and divvy up the oil.

4.) Invade ourselves and have *our* oil companies take over the oil.

We chose the last option, but now we just can't convince Iraqis that that was a good idea. Go figure.
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evolvenow Donating Member (800 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
48. Location, location, location + occupied natural resources. Only solution..
will be alternative, eventually Free Energy. That's why all of the evil corporations are jumping on the alternative bandwagon. They have done everything they can to stop free energy technology , but the last few years they have been mighty interested....get it..to align systems/people/companies that have intelligent models for free energy...and then make a ton of money, so it is not so free.

Google: Tesla, J.P. Morgan

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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #48
52. They must still be hoping their COAL investment
pay off too. I heard, last week on NPR, that the Coal companies are looking to hire 5000 workers for the PA Coal mines.

Gee, where can I sign up?:dunce:

But check this article out too. Pre-War conclusion from the Global Policy Forum.
<http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/oil/2002/12heart.htm>

this is the opening paragraph.

"Oil is at the heart of the crisis that leads towards a US war against Iraq. For more than a hundred years, major powers have battled to control this enormous source of wealth and strategic power. The major international oil companies, headquartered in the United States and the United Kingdom, are keen to regain control over Iraq’s oil, lost with the nationalization in 1972. Few outside the industry understand just how high the stakes in Iraq really are and how much the history of the world oil industry is a history of power, national rivalry and military force..."
<clip>

The Global Policy Forum’s mission is to monitor policy making at the United Nations, promote accountability of global decisions, educate and mobilize for global citizen participation, and advocate on vital issues of international peace and justice.
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achtung_circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
49. Gwynnw Dyer has a new book out called Future: Tense
Edited on Mon Jan-03-05 05:54 PM by achtung_circus
My girlfriend bought it for me for Christmas. In it Dyer postulates that Iraq was chosen primarily to serve as an example for the world of what happens when you oppose the Altered States of America.

Dyer believes that the main intended audience for this display was "Old Europe".

Of course there are benefits such as contracts but Dyer states that access to oil is not a problem- you just pay the market price and get all the oil you want.

<http://www.gwynnedyer.net/>

"Gwynne Dyer is a London-based independent journalist whose articles are published in 45 countries"

The archived columns on his site make fascinating reading. They provide a perspective from behind the mirror that seems to shield the US from the rest of the world.


"The dream of American empire has attracted American neo-conservatives for decades, but it gained a much broader following after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. The only apparent constraint on
US power had been removed, and the idea that the world will be a safer
place if it is governed by multilateral organisations under the rule of law began to give way to the fantasy that the United States can and should make the world a safer place (particularly for American interests) by the unilateral exercise of its own immense power.

Official Washington was starting to oppose any new international rules that might act as a brake on the free exercise of US power even in Bill Clinton's administration. It was Clinton, not George W. Bush, who fought an international ban on land mines and tried to sabotage the new International Criminal Court. President Bush's cancellation of the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, the US veto on new provisions for intrusive inspections under the Chemical Weapons Convention, and Washington's more recent rejection of similar attempts to write some provisions for enforcement into the Biological Weapons Treaty simply follow in the same path.

As Boston University professor and retired US army officer Andrew Bacevich wrote in a recent edition of 'The National Interest', "In all of American public life, there is hardly a single prominent figure who finds fault with the notion of the United States remaining the world's sole military superpower until the end of time." This is called hubris, and it is generally followed by nemesis. That will probably arrive during the next phase of the fantasy: the wildly ambitious project to make the conquest of Iraq the cornerstone for a wholesale restructuring of the Arab world along American lines."



More here: <http://www.gwynnedyer.net/articles/Gwynne%20Dyer%20article_%20%20American%20Empire.txt>


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tngledwebb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 05:21 AM
Response to Original message
53. Because of election 2000 and 9/11,
and when we get the truth about those two events, we will be on the way to solving the world's biggest problem.
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ngant17 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-05-05 06:08 AM
Response to Original message
54. same reason we invaded Vietnam - a lie
WMD was the "Gulf of Tonkin" incident for Iraq. A complete fabrication. It's amazing how many people repeated this as some sort of divine gospel coming from Shrub.

The lack of independent thinking and the inability to criticize by a lot of US people, that might be contributing to the problem, too.
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