Coalition with libertarians?

[pberq]

What about forming a coalition with libertarians?

Libertarians are as outraged as we are with the current administration. To get an idea of where they are coming from here are few of their writers on the current situation:

First, Lew Rockwell points out that:

"The most significant socio-political shift in our time has gone almost completely unremarked, and even unnoticed. It is the dramatic shift of the red-state bourgeoisie from leave-us-alone libertarianism, manifested in the Congressional elections of 1994, to almost totalitarian statist nationalism. Whereas the conservative middle class once cheered the circumscribing of the federal government, it now celebrates power and adores the central state, particularly its military wing."

See this link for much more -- an extensive critique of the current situation with historical context from the libertarian perspective:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/red-state-fascism.html

Here Roderick T. Long proposes a libertarian/left coalition in his commentary on Rockwell's article:

http://hnn.us/blogs/entries/9354.html

(Excerpts)
"With regard to the controversy over Lew Rockwell's New Year's editorial . . . I strongly agree with Lew that the libertarian movement needs to rethink its sometimes kneejerk anti-leftism and to consider "extending more rhetorical tolerance leftward."

"For me the case is not primarily strategic, . . . but it certainly is at least strategic. The statist right, which now controls the Presidency, both houses of Congress, and much of the media, is, as Lew rightly observes, "the most pressing and urgent threat to freedom that we face in our time," and it's in the interest of libertarians to build bridges with the left, who have been "solid on civil liberties" (at least by comparison) and "crucial in drawing attention to the lies and abuses of the Bush administration."

"While there are, admittedly, plenty of authoritarian types on the left (as everywhere else), there are also plenty of people whose instincts are firmly anti-authoritarian but who have been lured into supporting state socialism because it's been sold to them as the only effective counterweight to state capitalism. These leftists are our potential allies, but no alliance will be forthcoming so long as we continue to confirm most leftists' impression of libertarianism as a variant of conservatism."


Here Justin Raimondo (a libertarian and "old style" conservative) brings up some important points about that current situation that are not discussed much in the media:

http://antiwar.com/justin/
(Excerpts)

"The idea that today's conservatives are in any way defenders of individual liberty, the free market, and what Russell Kirk called "the permanent things," i.e., the sacred traditions that have accumulated over time to constitute the core of our Judeo-Christian culture, is no longer a defensible proposition. Instead, what used to be called the conservative movement has morphed, almost overnight, into a coterie of moral monsters, whose political program is one of unmitigated evil.

. . .

"In any case, by this time the evidence for the malevolent transformation of the American Right is all around us – in the ravings of Fox News "commentators," in the sheer existence of Ann Coulter, in the usurpation of a formerly respectable political tendency by the greasy evasions of the "neo"-conservatives. This change is most starkly dramatized in three disturbing trends:

(1) Widespread support on the Right for internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II, touting Michelle Malkin's shoddy-to-nonexistent scholarship, with the implication that we should be contemplating the same treatment for Americans of Arab descent,

(2) the justification of torture when utilized by the American military in the name of the "war on terrorism" by "conservative" legal theorists, and

(3) advocacy of a ruthlessly aggressive foreign policy of military expansionism, supposedly in order to spread "democracy" around the world.

(More). . .

[Tweed]

1. A coalition with Libertarians is like the US coalition in Iraq

We have all the power and would take all the hits. It would be no different than going alone.

[Liberty Belle]

2. We had Libertarians, Greens, & Peace & Freedom Party

members at our Vote march and rally in San Diego Sunday.

Rigging an election isn't a partisan issue--except for Republicans, who can only win by cheating.

[stpalm]

3. Interesting...

Along these lines, I recall an amusing quote from a REAL conservative about Bush's economic policies, saying that "they aren't conservative, they are insane"

[txaslftist]

4. Not a coalition...a truce

I like libertarians, and I'm sorta one myself. I read Rockwell quite a bit, and if it didn't mean a retreat to 1930s era poverty and 1905 era bigotry, I might be on board even with their more radical ideas.

The fact is we have more in common with libertarians than they do with Neo-Cons. But we're the biggest opposition party going, and they ain't.

I'd like to see more of them saying good things about us (and voting for our candidates), but when we return to power, don't expect the truce to last.

[Dr Ron]

5. Opposition Party

The point is that the Democrats are THE opposition party. They need to capitalize on this to get support from a wide variety of people who are unhappy with one party rule in general, and the Republican's current policies.

[pberq]

6. What about the DLC?

In name, yes, the Democrats are the opposition party. Except for when it comes to supporting in illegal war that has nothing to do with protecting America.

Or what about "free trade" agreements that send American jobs to somewhere where corporations can legally use sweat shop labor?

It just seems that a majority of Americans are being hurt by the current administration, and we need to find a way out of this.

[txaslftist]

7. The DLC should change its name.

How about the "Democrats Lite Committee"

[bryant69]

8. On foreign policy maybe

On domestic programs not very much at all. Their problem with President Bush's phase out of Social Security (also known as privitization) is that he doesn't just shut the program down. They would shut down dozens of other Democratic Legacies.

But we might be able to work with them on a fighting an imposition of government morality laws or on foreign policy.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[ProgressiveConn]

9. Yes Greens too!

We offer both the Libertarian and Green parties coalition. Call it the Progressive Coalition and put Green and Libertarian candidates on our ticket in select areas in exchange for asking their supporters to vote Democrat in other areas.

Coalition would be built around electoral reform. Preferential Balloting for President, effort to 'proportionalize' our legislature, end of gerrymandering, etc.

[newyawker99]

13. Hi ProgressiveConn!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[ProgressiveConn]

22. Thanks!

Great to finally be able to post. (Very Very hard to register when you only use free email =).

[Stinky The Clown]

10. This strikes me a whole different way

I'm not necessarily for or against anything else already said in this thread.

But might it be possible that the Libertarians are actually a wedge we can use to peel away support for the Republicans?

Imagine a conversation between you and a "Republican" ..... "Oh, is that how you see it? Interesting. You know, that's more in line with the Libertarian viewpoint, not the Republicans. Maybe you ought to look into that."

[txaslftist]

11. There are places where libertarians can win...

Like West Texas...

The libertarian candidates out here often perform better in elections than the democrats, but still not as well as the Pukes. Maybe putting democratic support behind libertarians would be more effective in defeating the Pukes... Then again, maybe that would just further marginalize the dems...I'm a bit conflicted about this.

[Az]

12. Critical difference between us

Dems believe that Government can be part of the solution. We believe it is the collective hand of the people trying to build a better and more perfect union. Libertarians believe that Government is the problem. They wish to dismantle it as much as they can.

I do not know that these two ideologies can mix.

[Batgirl]

14. I don't fear libertarians

but I greatly fear the authoritarian right, drunk with unchecked power and seeking to tighten it's grip over all of us.

I find I have something in common with libertarians -- fear and repulsion of looting dictatorships such as the one we have now.

[Az]

15. I actually fear the libertarians more

They would dismantle all the systems that keep corporations in check. Republicans crave power. That actually limits them to an extent. Those who want power are controlled by the necessities of power. Libertarians would simply knock out all the controls and let havoc reign.

[Batgirl]

the reason I'm not worried about that happening

is that it would take an extreme level of power in government, for any group to eliminate that power. Power that would either have to come from a majority of the populace, or from underhanded strategies like cheating. I don't think the former would happen, and I doubt the libertarian psyche would lend itself to the ruthless, dishonest tactics currently displayed by the right.

Of course, I could be wrong, since I'm basing this assumption on the few libertarians I've actually met, who seem more idealistic, not simply out for power.

[PurityOfEssence]

18. The dynamic of economic determination is truly frightening

Libertarianism (and Randian "objectivism") appeal to simplistic adolescents. It's like the hallowed concept of a tax return on a 3x5 card: simple and dumb.

The market would be determined by catastrophes in a Libertarian world, but they gloss this over with their blissful rosy worldview. Government's so bad, and anyone telling you what to or not to do is so horrible to them that they're willing to live with the primitive consequences or not even admit that they exists. The theory goes like this: if the product sucks, market forces will cause it to fail. The problem is that those "market forces" are innocent people being killed, injured, poisoned or otherwise harmed.

In a modern world without regulation, you'd spend all your time negotiating, shopping and testing; you'd never be able to do a damned thing. You'd wake up in the morning, have to test the water in your shower so it wasn't contaminated, hope to find the radio station you like, because another transmitter may be deliberately trying to drown it out, and then arm yourself to the teeth before sallying forth from your fortress. Navigating the war zone that'd be traffic will be further complicated by the horrible roads, and when you locate a gas station, you'd better get out your testing kit to make sure it doesn't ruin your car.

And on and on. Libertarianism is simply silly, and its adherents fancy themselves so thoroughly superior to others that it will benefit them personally. The sheer ego of the concept is staggering.

Civilization IS regulation. Yeah, too much is a pain, but it allows us to not waste ridiculous time and energy on every transaction.

Although we share civil liberty roots with them, they are inherently enemies: it's a supremely selfish philosophy, and it completely disregards the interdependence and obligation to our fellow man by dismissing the advantages of specialization. Since conservatism is essentially selfishness, the libertarians are their inherent allies, not ours.

Even so, they will be useful ad-hoc allies on occasion in the fight against extremist theocracy and this creeping totalitarianism. All in all, they're nowhere near as mean and greedy as the more common stripe of American reactionary, and we may find ourselves in bed with some very odd fellows in the years to come...

[Batgirl]

19. I agree about "the dynamic of economic determinism"

having frightening implications. And that the reality would be nothing like the blissful world they imagine. But I just can't muster up much fear of the people who (in my opinion, mistakenly) ascribe to it. Maybe I'm naive in that respect. Their simplistic utopianism seems so harmless compared to these thugs who believe in nothing except grabbing fistfuls of power and loot. I think it's true, we may find ourselves in bed with "some very odd fellows" in the years to come...

[PurityOfEssence]

20. the further weakening of government is scary

I'm with you on lots of your impressions, but I've also known some pretty calculating and underhanded libertarians along with the idealists. The problem is that life is cumulative and marginal, so anything that gets more people chirping with the chorus of getting rid of regulation and transparent oversight simply plays into the hands of the monarchists. Corporatists and other scions of huge money thirst for the elimination of meddlesome government. Through decades of repetition, they've gotten so many people into the knee-jerk reaction against government that they meet little scrutiny when tampering with very important governmental functions.

It doesn't matter if they're marginal by numbers, they add into balance. It also doesn't matter if they're idealistic; plenty of horrors have been wrought by the actions of the honorable. As we worship at the altar of corporatism and steadfast individualism, powerful forces move in the background. Companies like Clear Channel have serious evil afoot, and they're pikers in comparison to some of he really dangerous sorts.

Regardless of what the right would have us think these days, the margins of difference on many issues are very small. Even small groups like this can have a great effect.

[sendero]

25. Nice post...

.... and I agree completely.

I've had several conversations with Libs asking them "how would libertarianism stop Enron, WorldCom, etc.".

You wouldn't believe the nonsense, denial and outright bullsh*t I get for a reply.

Anyone who thinks less oversight and regulation will result in less corporate fraud is living in the rabbit hole already.

[CWebster]

16. In my experience with them on the net

I have found them to be mean-spirited and too doctrinaire--especially regarding the god of the free market. And people complain about a too dogmatic Left - at least their hearts are in the right place. At least the Left has a heart. And that is worth being dogmatic about.

[youngred]

17. Sure

If they want to come on board let them be my guest. Everyone that stayed home or voted for badanarik last election though was a vote taken away from Bush, as the Republicans usually the large part of Libertarian votes.

We're going to disagree on a lot, but we can find a lot of common ground with them

[RandomKoolzip]

21. Sure...as long as they work on their smugness.

Oh, but I kid the libertarians......

More and more, it seems that any and all groups opposed to the Neoconservatives are going to NEED to band together to get this fascist death cult out of the WH.

[eridani]

23. As long as you pick the right issue

I'd say work with them against the PATRIOT Act, the war in Iraq, the War on Some Drugs, and other issues where we agree. Agree to disagree on the rest.

[hollowdweller]

24. Maximum personal freedom + social safety net = winning elections

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

26. Why not a coalition with the Freepers? Same difference.

God, people are sooo willing to sell out to the ultra-right.

[GreenPartyVoter]

27. Only on personal freedoms issues and NOT financial ones

------------------------------------------------------
Election reform can help save this country!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm

[toddaa]

28. I'm a libertarian, go ahead and hate me but

Leftists better start getting over their love of unrestrained government power, because we are now facing one hellbent on crushing us and sending us off to places like Gitmo. The LP's hardcore Randian Objectivist loonies may have soured you to libertarian ideals, but there are plenty of left leaning libertarians that do exist on the fringes of the LP that are slowly trickling into the Green party ranks. Statism is the enemy, whether it be left or right, so to keep calling all libertarians "ultra rightists" is to continue to wallow in ignorance and to ignore the potential of a powerful coalition of opposition to this authoritarian beast.

For those who claim they can't stand libertarians, what do you think of Noam Chomsky? Is he an ultra rightist?