A Plea for Religious Tolerance:

[RandomKoolzip]

(I posted this a few nights ago in an unrealted thread at like 3 in the morning.....reposting it here just for the hellck of it:)

I'm going to offer some advice here to DUers who aeem all too willing to get involved in flamewars about religion: I'm an atheist, and I've been involved in my share of flamewars on DU about this shit, but I've kinda turned a corner.....it's time we start being nicer to people of faith who happen to be liberal, and stop demonizing all believers as superstitious twerps.

I DON'T believe in a god. But yowling about how right I am will never convince any religious person of a liberal political persuasion to my side. What WILL work is finding common ground in a desperate situation. I've got friends who are religious and liberal; the two traits are not mutually exculsive.

When Karl Rove and the other strategists of the right discovered that religion was the perfect wedge issue to divide the Democrats, they really musta been happy. The inclusion of religion into political debate on the left turns everyone involved into a bigot; everyone's prejudices come out and the conversation turns round and round, never landing anywhere safe. Those of faith are offended by the coarse language of the faithless, and the faithless are pissed of about having to knuckle under to what they view as superstition....and any kind of unity, however fragile, is ripped asunder. This is exactly what the GOP wants.


This is my own New Year's Resolution: to work WITH people of faith on the left for a solution to the Democratic Party's crises. Even as an unbeliever, I am honored to be on the side of Martin Luther King, The Berrigan Brothers, Jesse Jackson, the Dalai Lama, and Mahatma Ghandi: these are all persons of faith (Another resolution: to stop using "religion" as a euphemism for "Christianity.") whose goals are my goals, whose struggles are my struggles.

Atheists should start looking for a way to build a coalition with liberal people of faith in fighting for the same goals. And liberal Christians ought to be standing up in their churches, demanding a return to the traditional Christianity which produced Dr. King and rejecting the radical new apocalyptic rhetoric of the Christian Right. They ought to be taking their faith back from the Rapture-boosting usurpers. How to do this? I dunno. Maybe there ought to be a "counter-quorum" to refute and combat the new Rapture-propaganda with direct quotes from the Bible, or facts....Maybe there can be some large, organized group of liberal church leaders in the vein of The Christian Coalition or Focus on the Family.....DU believers, can we start talking about forming/organizing/funding something like this?

We, as atheists, ought to be helping them in fighting the consrvative hijackers, not condescending to them for their adherance to a different set of spiritual beliefs. In the new year I vow to refrain from harsh language when talking about my beliefs and AVOIDING CUL-DE-SAC FLAMEWARS WHENEVER POSSIBLE....in the past, I've called their god "The invisible cloud being." Ha ha ha, but for every laugh I get from a fellow atheist, there's six believers who take umbrage. And as long as these guys and gals are on my side, I want them to feel like part of the team. (This also goes for North vs. South debates: I pledge to be more magnanimous about this shit, seeing as how there's liberals in every part of the country)

The church, as a social force, CAN be used for good; it can be used as a vehicle for social justice, fairness, and peace, which I think 99% of atheists can all agree are legitimate concerns.


Anyhow, I just thought I'd add my two cents in here, because I'm seeing a rupture in the hard-won unity I saw on the left post-primaries, and it troubles me. I know I can be more tolerant if it helps our common goals in the long run. Not telling you what to do, just passing some advice. Feel free to ignore it.


(Now, freepers posing as DUers to start religious flamewars, that's a COMPLETELY different subject! Fuck them; they're easy to spot, as they never post about anything else)

[Bouncy Ball]

1. Great post.

Here's how I feel about it: I don't give a flip what anyone does or doesn't believe, as long as their beliefs don't cause them to harm anyone.

If someone believes there is a purple three-eyed God living in their teakettle and they want to put an altar in front of it and pray to it three times a day, have at it. None of my business.

I'm a Christian myself and I have friends of EVERY different belief, including atheists. We get along great.

I can't really stand up in my church as I don't have one (don't tend to like organized religion) but I am getting more vocal as a member of the religious LEFT.

Oh and I really resent the idea that people who aren't religious aren't moral. I hate that. Religion and morality are NOT mutually exclusive. Some of the kindest, most wonderful people I know are atheists and agnostics.

I work closely with a local atheists organization because they fight for separation of church and state, something we are losing all the time.

Again, thanks for the post.

(And for the record, I've never proselytized to anyone in my life. I think it's rude and an invasion of people's privacy. I won't and don't do it.)

[Midlodemocrat]

2. RKZ

One of the many reasons I am SOOOOO glad you are back. That was an inspired post.

Personally, I am a devout, cradle Catholic, so you and I could not be further apart religiously. I totally respect your right to believe or not believe and I am grateful that you don't make me out to be an idiot for believing.

Faith is an extremely personal thing, as is non-faith. I have suffered a great deal of death in my immediate family over the last few years, as well as losing two dear friends this summer and the thought that I would not see any of them again would be too much to bear. Other people who choose not to believe have differing thoughts on that, but I wouldn't presume to say to them some of the things that have been said about believers.

Thank you for posting this. Perhaps we have seen an end to the religious flame wars.

[RandomKoolzip]

5. Thank ya....

One of my best friends in the whole world is a recently converted Catholic, devout Catholic....I was torn for a while. I didn't know whether I should make my contempt for organized religion an issue or should I just accept him as my friend.

After some mild sniping, acceptance won out.


We all have more in common than we realize.

[Dorian Gray]

8. Midlodemocrat

summed it up for me, as well. I'm also a cradle Catholic, and I'm very religious. But, I agree with RKZ, and I"m glad he (she? sorry... I don't know many posters well) posted what he did because it was inspired.

There is too much religious division in this world, but politically we have many common goals. I understand that not everybody shares the same faith that I do, and I am more than willing to work with those people to reach goals that we have in common. And there are many.

We need to show compassion for one another, then understanding will fall into place.

[Midlodemocrat]

10. Absolutely. Well said.

[Donkeyboy75]

3. Well said,

assface. ;)

[RandomKoolzip]

4. No prob!

See you at Tae Bo class, chief!

[Az]

6. We are all in this thing together

We may not agree on everything but we don't have a choice other than to find a way to coexist. Moving from there we can find many many things we do agree upon. And that is the start of forming bonds between us.

[RandomKoolzip]

7. Exactly....

We shouldn't have to fight amongst just ourselves because Rove, et al, wants us too. Whenever someone starts a religious flamewar, Rove smiles.

Imagine how strong a liberal faith/agnostic/atheist unified bloc could be. Imagine if the left could actually, seriously unite under common goals instead of sniping at each other for these little battles. Imagine what a nightmare for the right that would be!

[Liberal Veteran]

9. Let me just say this about that....

I agree with you in spirit...however

Part of the problem is when people of faith on the board take EVERY criticism of what has become the mainstream form of religion in the US, which has become hijacked by right-wing, gay-hating, greedy hatriots who apparently have never bothered to open the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (and I sometimes wonder if their bibles actually include those books) as a criticism of their own personal faith.

People shouldn't be so thin skinned that we have constantly clarify that when criticising those who use their religion as a tool of oppression or justification for hatred and self-centeredness that we are NOT talking about those good people of faith who truly believe in love, compassion, forgiveness and selflessness.

This tendency to personalize every criticism because someone didn't bother to type out a completely precise description because they assume it is self-evident is what causes a large percentage of the flame wars.

One thing I will not tolerate is when someone uses their faith to try to relegate me to the status of second-class citizenship or when someone claims that God is punishing group x through natural phenomenon y or that Jesus would support what we did in Iraq. Tolerance has limits.

[Bouncy Ball]

12. Would it be really ironic to say "amen" to that?

LOL!

But seriously great post. I agree. I don't really care what anyone thinks of my beliefs, so if someone wants to say I have an imaginary playmate or whatever, I just say "ok whatever." It's no skin off my nose.

In the end, I am on the same side as everyone on this site (except the trolls) and to me, that's what matters the most.

[RandomKoolzip]

16. I hear what you're saying and I understand as much

as a straight guy CAN understand. *I* am not having my civil rights taken away in the name of God because of my sexual orientation.

THAT is a subject that does need to be brought up; when religious intolerance becomes legislation, everyone loses out. On behalf of straight dudes everywhere, I apologize for my ignorant brethren. (If I were religious, I'd pray that they see the light....)

And re: "thin-skinnedness:" In a world none of us created, bullshit is unavoidable. So, the constant need to clarify one's positions and terms does get tiresome, but I'm willing to make some sacrifices to puff some life back into liberalism's corpse. If it helps to bring liberal persons of faith into agreement with liberal atheists, then I'll do it.

[Maat]

11. Thank you for the post.

I, for one, see a coalition building.

We now have the following DU Groups:

1. Atheists/Agnostics,

2. Orthodox Christians/Catholics,

3. Liberal Christians (&OPF), and ...

4. Seekers on Unique Paths (kind of from a UU/New-Thought view).

People can now talk with DUers of like belief without any rude comments being thrown at them.

However, when it becomes necessary, and it will - again and again - we can unify (and show clear unity) towards a common goal.

[RandomKoolzip]

18. True.

Watch out for obvious disruptors though.... I ain't namin' names, but there are those who insist on pushing those hot buttons again and again....ignore them, or if you must debate them, treat them with respect and refrain from rudeness. And if all else fails, hit alert.

[Lerkfish]

13. thank you!

well stated.
I'm one of those liberal christians. I will also pledge to be more tolerant in the coming year.

[patcox2]

14. Things have been much better lately with this issue, thanks.

Good post and I am glad you think it a worthy goal to avoid the harshness.

[Rowdyboy]

15. Beautifully put.....

[RandomKoolzip]

19. Thanks....

As a white hetero male, I have NO real clue how it is being the victim of religious persecution. But I can take a step back and see that there are those believers and people of faith who do NOT want to partake in the persecution and want to instead use their spirituality as a force of good. THESE people should be welcomed and encouraged, not spat on because of their "superstitions." And I'm guilty of such name calling, but I won't do it again.

[Cuban_Liberal]

17. Thank you for saying this.

It needed to be said.

:thumbsup:

[RandomKoolzip]

20. Thank you.