"Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven"

[jswordy]

http://www.al.com/newsflash/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-11/11049680413261.xml&storylist=alabamanews

HUNTSVILLE, Ala. — The Huntsville Christian Academy headmaster was fired while under investigation by the FBI for allegedly having child pornography on his school computer.

 "The Rev. Alan Webster has been terminated," Cathy Whiddon, who started the school with her husband in August 1993, told the Huntsville Times. "We've put it in God's hands."

[txaslftist]

1. Was he forgiven in advance?

I mean, is this like, a jesus-license to surf for kiddy porn?

[TWiley]

95. Only if he first filled the S&H Green stamp book

and turned it in.

[arwalden]

2. I Can't Say What I'm Thinking

But that's a funny subject line! (I despise that bumper sticker slogan.)

[CrispyQ]

19. I like the one ...

"Christians aren't perfect, they just want you to be."

Perhaps to make it more accurate, though, it should state "Religious zealots" not Christians.

[genieroze]

3. Good Lord.

:eyes:

[RUDUing2]

4. ?..what is the purpose of this post..to show that not everyone who claims

to be a christian actually is one?..okay.intelligent people already realize that...

to show that pedophiles will use any means possible to get into a position of power and trust over children, including religious and school ones? again intelligent people already realize that....

Just wondering about your motives for this posting.

[LoZoccolo]

6. Welcome to DU RUDUing2!

:hi:

[arwalden]

7. So Anyone Who Posts A Story That Isn't Flattering Of Christians...

... or Christianity has some sort of "motive"? :eyes:

[RUDUing2]

18. nope..only those that do so in this manner.

side door tactics, etc..

This story had little to do w/*christians* and everything to do w/abuse of power and trust in a school setting..

[CatholicEug]

23. I agree

If someone wants to post an article on pedophilia, please do! We should all be made aware of this problem.

But the way this thread was couched -- just look at the title -- is pure sarcasm. Like what ... we're supposed to be shocked SHOCKED! that some Christians are as screwed up as everyone else? That doesn't diminish the forgiveness bestowed on humanity by Christ nor does it diminish the good Christianity has done in the world (and yes, before you jump all over me, I'm equally aware of the evil done in the name of Christianity).

Why don't we see threads entitled: Another Guy Wins 70 Virgins
and then link to articles about muslim suicide bombers? Because attacking Islam isn't vogue. But attacking Christianity has always been in vogue for some folks.

Go ahead and keep it up. I'll just go to church, pray, and hope. You go ahead and tear down. Makes no difference. But don't think we're not onto you. :)

[greyfox]

58. Amen to that!

Christian bashers are everywhere - even amongst Christians it seems.

[arwalden]

74. Well... That's ONE Way Of Looking At It.

:eyes:

[jswordy]

8. My "motives" were to report a news story that...

...would then generate a lively discussion on all aspects of what has come to light as a serious pedophilia problem in Christian churches of all denominations.

Personally, I think the dichotomy between actions and professed beliefs is of interest. Especially when mixed with an alleged perp who is an ordained minister.

But the "motives" were to prompt a discussion of this serious issue and all of its ramifications. Nothing more or less. Pretty much, those are my "motives" for any subject post you will see from me.

[RUDUing2]

14. there is more of a problem w/pedophilia in the schools..

the header was not worded in a way of someone who really wanted to facilitate a true discussion about this issue...instead it was worded in a way to try and link christianity to pedophilism and give people an excuse to *go there*...

not good debate style and not a way to prompt serious discussion..but great if you simply want to create hyperbole and post in inflammatory manner...

[trotsky]

10. You don't really get it, do you?

pedophiles will use any means possible to get into a position of power and trust over children

The point of the news story is to show that people who ARE fine, upstanding leaders in a Christian community CAN be pedophiles - not the other way around.

Look up the "No true Scotsman" fallacy sometime.

[RUDUing2]

13. so why not word the header..another pedophile uses religion as a cover...

if that is the point you are trying to make....

If this story was about raising awareness that pedophiles do this then that is how you would have slanted the header...instead you choose to use this story as way to swipe at christians...

you could even have said..does religion say that pedophiles will/can be forgiven..again if that was your aim...

your header does not back up your claims of what your post was trying to do.

[trotsky]

20. You STILL missed the point.

And it wasn't my original post. But anyway...

What you want to do is assume that any pedophile is obviously not TRULY religious. That, as you say, a "pedophile uses religion as a cover."

But the point is, a very devout and otherwise respected religious person CAN also be a pedophile. They aren't necessarily using religion as a cover - they are religious, and they are a pedophile.

Where the "no true Scotsman" fallacy comes in is that you can't just sit back and pick & choose who gets to use the label "Christian" AFTER the fact.

[RUDUing2]

22. actually you can...*true* christians are known by their acts not by their

words or claims. Being religious and being a christian are not one and the same.

[trotsky]

38. You are *so close*...

Using the criteria you just laid out, ANYONE who sins would therefore not be a Christian. (I was using "religious" as a more generic term, I know it's trendy among many Christians to make a distinction, but I am not using that.)

Therefore, you aren't a Christian. Unless you can say that you don't sin. Ever.

Thus, what the original poster put in the title:

"Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven"

See how it all comes around now?

[RUDUing2]

43. not exactly...but that is one way to spin it...

btw are you supporting that the title had anything to do w/the subject and w/a goal of facilitating discussion about the problem of pedophilia?

Christians sin..they never claim they don't..but forgiveness isn't given just because you mouth words..your actions have to also show that you are attempting not to repeat the sin, that you are repentant and that you are attempting to make reparation..otherwise your acts do not match your words..

[trotsky]

46. Doesn't matter.

According to Christian doctrine, it really doesn't matter how much I sin, as long as I *eventually* ask for forgiveness. Even if it's on my deathbed, when I no longer have time to follow through with my actions. A "get out of jail free" card, if you are in a state to use it!

The title was entirely appropriate for the post, because it wasn't about the problem of pedophilia - it was about religious hypocrisy.

[Az]

54. There are two sources they must answer to

In their belief system they have to answer to God and to local law. They can forgive the individual their sin. But if there is a local law that covers the issue as well they are supposed to comply with it.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

96. On the same logic: "Another person so fucked up by the practice

of fundamentalist christianity that he turns to pedophilia"

Or drowns her babies, kilss his/her parents...

Take your choice.

[AngryOldDem]

11. Welcome to DU, and stick around

your question will be answered in due time.

[Susang]

12. I'm curious

What do you mean by that cryptic statement?

[Susang]

31. Tumbleweeds are rolling.......

And I'm still curious.

[AngryOldDem]

39. Because no matter what the "motive"

posts on religion here invariably become hate and flame-fests. You may disagree with that, but there have been enough posts that have begun innocently enough that have become quite nasty.

This guy needs to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But I also see no problem with people whose faith is important to them calling on that faith to help them through a difficult time. I have been associated with two parishes that shared a priest who was involved in the sex scandal. One parish was almost financially and psychologically destroyed by this man's acts. But this parish is surviving and thriving, primarily through the hearts and souls of the parishioners who go there.

And the reason why I haven't posted sooner was, the original thread was locked, and the link posted by the mod kept sending me back to the locked thread, for some reason.

[Susang]

42. Perhaps the flame-fests are self fulfilling prophecies?

If you assume, as you did with your cryptically worded warning post, that this thread (and any others on religious topics) will "invariably become hate and flame-fests", doesn't that attitude contribute to heavily the problem?

[AngryOldDem]

51. Wasn't a "warning" post...

because I know if the poster sticks around long enough, he'll have his question answered.

And no, these threads don't need my help to become insulting. It just gets tiresome having to defend something (i.e. a particular belief system) that should be respected merely out of common courtesy. By all means criticize those leaders who fail. But inevitably the overgeneralizations start and then there's no going back. Already here it's been met with skepticism that not all Christians believe that once they are saved they can then do no wrong, for instance.

Don't know how else to explain it.

[Susang]

55. Why should it be respected out of common courtesy?

I'm sorry, but I don't necessarily agree with that. My beliefs are not so fragile that they can't take a challenge or two, even if it's perceived by me as being rude or unnecessary. I don't need the people of DU to agree with my choice of faith (or lack of).

The Church is a political institution as well as a religious one. For that reason, it must be open to criticism here. Particularly since they are actively seeking to influence our politics.

[AngryOldDem]

57. I agree that there should be criticism

of any societal institution, including religion and particular denominations, but sadly, topics that are started to foster discussion or criticism all too often stray into insults and overgeneralizations about not only church leaders and systems, but about those who are followers of those systems as well. As an example, pick any thread that discusses the Pope to see how hateful things can become. Protestants also get their share of grief here, too. What gets some of us is that the same tolerance that is shown (and expected to be shown) toward many other groups seems to be in short supply as it comes to religion, and a lot of that intolerance seems to be knee-jerk.

And what you said about DU not having to agree with my choice of faith...I've been saying that for a long time now. They don't have to agree, but I do expect them to respect my belief and not ridicule it. There is a difference between honest criticism and ridicule. Too many here can't seem to see the difference, though.

I am not the only one here who has noticed this and pointed it out. That's why I could understand the poster's wondering about the motives behind this thread.

[Susang]

59. The opposite could also be said

That the religious at DU are oversensitive and perceive any criticism of their religion's actions as a criticism of themselves. Then the insults fly in both directions. See what I'm getting at?

This respect thing works both ways and it seems to me that you are only seeing one side of it, the side you are on. You say that you are not the only person who has noticed this perceived anti-religion bias. You realize that this doesn't make the bias a truth? When you are debating a subject that is so closely identified with personal identity, feelings are bound to get stepped on, there's really no getting around it.

Atheists and skeptics also claim that there is a bias against them here at DU. Their threads are routinely locked and their posts deleted. If there is an anti-religion bias here, how would you explain this phenomenon?

[Malva Zebrina]

86. No one is expected to respect a god

in anyone's belief system, just because they say so.

No one is required to "respect" a religion, just because they claim to believe in a god of their choosing.

Christians make up 80% or more of the population of the US, and they seem to be constantly complaining they are "persecuted"

[AngryOldDem]

101. Fine. The white flag is waving on this subject for me.

Have it your way. But I find it just a bit odd that your reasoning is sounds an awful like what I hear from those who villify gays and homosexuality. They don't agree with the lifestyle, so that gives them license to say or do whatever they please against homosexuals.

What is so difficult about this? "I, personally, don't believe in a particular faith system, but I acknowledge that you do, and respect you for your beliefs." Or, "I don't believe in a god, but I understand that such a belief adds meaning to your life." Is that REALLY so difficult to comprehend? Are most of us REALLY that far out to the left that we cannot show common courtesy when it comes to personal matters such as one's faith?

I'm not trying to convert you to my faith. We all walk our own path. But I am finding it exceedingly tiresome to see it mocked and dirided here constantly, most often by some who turn out to have some axe to grind.

Some people just don't, or choose not, to get it, and I'm tired of talking to brick walls.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

5. Does being forgiven...

Somehow ameliorate his actions? Not in the least. "Render unto Caesar..."

Born agains have an interesting worldview: "I am born again, bathed in the blood of the lamb that taketh away the sins of the world. Therefore, I can commit any crime, any sin, any unethical action, any false witness and all I have to do is dial 1-800-BIGLOUIEINHEAVEN to get a free pass for my actions"

I have seen it all too often.

[arwalden]

9. And That's Why I Distrust Businesses...

... who prominently display the fish symbol in their yellow-pages ads, or on their company vehicles, or on their websites, or on the entrance to their place of business.

[RUDUing2]

15. why? because pedophiles use religion among other things (m

such as becoming a teacher, a scout leader, a child care worker, a police officer, etc) as a way to gain the trust of the community and of children and as a way to get close to children in a position of authority?

[arwalden]

16. I Was Referring To The "I'll Always Be Forgiven No Matter What I Do"

mindset of some folks who perceive their ability to be forgiven as a free pass to do as they please.

Although the things you describe certainly to happen.

[RUDUing2]

17. I will admit this is a hot button topic for me for two reasons..

I have personally known a falsely accused priest..(the case was thrown out and my son attended the school and knew those involved and the accuser was not someone that should ever have been given any credance to begin w/..had a major ax to grind)..but it still destroyed the priest...

and so much attention is focused on the church problem w/pedophiles that the much larger problem of those in schools etc is ignored..if you pay attention to the media only on this issue you would believe that pedophilism is rampant in churches..and mostly non-existent other places..and the reverse comes closer to being true...I don't like it when distraction tactics are used that keep me from knowing the truth.

[Susang]

35. Well, it's a "hot button issue", as you put it, for others as well

I myself, have known many rightfully accused priests. Many who unfortunately, were merely moved to other parishes. This, of course, was long ago, before this kind of thing was talked about openly. Talk to most anyone who attended 12 years of Catholic schools, particularly pre-80s and you'll find that most were not surprised when this "scandal" broke.

I don't like it when true cases of abuse are called diversion tactics just because it apparently makes some people uncomfortable to face the problems that are inherent in their faith-based organizations.

[RUDUing2]

44. many? really when less then 2% of all priest have committed a

pederastic act and only one has committed actual pedophilic acts?

What is your criteria for many?

[Az]

47. Source?

Really interested in where this info is coming from.

[Susang]

49. I'm curious as well

[RUDUing2]

63. see below..listed several sources.

[Susang]

48. That we know of

After all, with the way the Church handled any problems in the past, how could there be any accurate statistics?

Tell me, have you personally ever been in a dispute with a priest or nun in a Catholic school? I was as a student, and can tell you that there are no records in existence of what happened between me, the Sister and my parents. The Sister was transfered from a very popular Detroit area school to a remote UP parish after the "problems" (their language) we had and my parents were asked to not speak about it out of loyalty to the Church. My parents, being old school Catholics and since the Church appeared to have done something about her, did what they asked.

There is a lot more to this than meets the eye, particularly in regards to past cases of abuse. Records did not exist or were destroyed by the Church, so how can you state such a low statistic as conclusive proof? A statistic that is lower than the general population's rate of abuse?

[Az]

50. Unfortunately

Various Churchs have nominated to handle such cases off the books. Out of court settlements. Moving the predatore to different congregations. We simply don't know how many were involved.

Secular assaults on children are much easier to find. The participants don't have a major well funded institution running interference for them.

[Susang]

53. Exactly my point

Until you've seen it in action, you have no idea how effective they are at silencing their detractors. My mother was no delicate flower and they still managed to shut her up. They still pulled me from the school, but how many cases, much more serious than mine, are out there?

[trotsky]

71. When it comes to a sexually-abusing priest, ONE is too many.

Especially when they are transferred around instead of answering for their crime(s).

[FlaGranny]

98. Well, not my hubby -

he spent years as an alter boy and went to Catholic school, and never had a priest behave in any way but a "priestly" manner. He was a quite "pretty" and appealing boy, too. He doesn't know anyone else who was abused, except by the nuns, who knocked them in the head and smacked them with rulers. Of course I believe that some abuse has taken place, but I very much doubt that Catholic priests are the majority of abusers. The original post serves to show that Catholic priests are not alone. Some people are VERY quick to condemn the entire priesthood for the actions of a very few.

[Az]

36. You got numbers supporting that

I am always interested in such technicalities. Would appreciate the source on this notion.

[RUDUing2]

60. a couple of links for you...

http://www.inoohr.org/homosexualpedophilesinthepub.htm (bad site but only place that still carries this story)
In a story not widely publicized in the mainstream press, the New York Post published a story in its July 30, 2001 edition about the secret epidemic of homosexual child abuse cases that go unreported in New York City’s public schools.

The report, “Secret Shame Of Our Schools: Sexual Abuse Of Students Runs Rampant,” by Douglas Montero, is the result of an analysis of 117 cases of sexual abuse between January 1999 and June 2001. Sixty percent of those accused of sexual abuse were transferred to desk jobs inside the school district. Forty percent of those transferred suspects were repeat sex offenders.

In a story not widely publicized in the mainstream press, the New York Post published a story in its July 30, 2001 edition about the secret epidemic of homosexual child abuse cases that go unreported in New York City’s public schools.

The report, “Secret Shame Of Our Schools: Sexual Abuse Of Students Runs Rampant,” by Douglas Montero, is the result of an analysis of 117 cases of sexual abuse between January 1999 and June 2001. Sixty percent of those accused of sexual abuse were transferred to desk jobs inside the school district. Forty percent of those transferred suspects were repeat sex offenders.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/mcmaken/mcmaken99.html
Jenkins notes that, appropriately, an issue that the media has been virtually silent on is the fact that children are far more likely to be abused by public school teachers than by Catholic priests, and that school districts transfer suspected pedophiles and abusers from district to district in a fashion far more alarming than that done at the height of the scandals by Catholic dioceses. Thanks to the paucity of media attention, the problem of pedophile teachers has received none of the reforms that have been pushed by the church in the wake of the scandal, and the abuse in public schools continues with not a peep from the New York Times.

http://www.rsvpamerica.org/CALIFORNIA%20SCHOOLS%20hate.htm
The data from SESAME (Survivors of Educator Sexual Abuse & Misconduct Emerge: A Voice for the Prevention of Sexual Exploitation, Abuse, and Harassment of Students by Teachers and Other School Staff,) finds 13% to 15% of high school graduates reporting educator sexual exploitation, including intercourse ”with a teacher

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/showarchive.php?date=2004-02-04
between .2 and 1.7 percent of priests are pedophiles,” reads the report. “The figure among the Protestant clergy ranges between 2 and 3 percent.”
The report also cites the incidence of abuse among athletic coaches nationwide, which is at 0.2 percent. In other words, about 6,000 coaches have been convicted of sexual abuse in the U.S. Between three and 12 percent of psychologists have had sexual contact with their clients.

The report also indicated that the number in incidences of abuse in schools progressively increased, from 1986 to 1991. Abuse in schools was by far the most common. In 1991, The Handbook on Sexual Abuse of Children reported that 17.7 percent of males who graduated from high school and 82.2 percent of females reported sexual harassment by faculty or staff. About 13.5 percent said they had sexual intercourse with their teacher.

In 1994, Hofstra University professor Charol Shakeshaft and her colleague, Audrey Cohan, found that of 15 percent of all students have experienced some kind of sexual misconduct by a teacher and that up to 5 percent of teachers sexually abuse children.

read the full report at: http://www.catholicleague.org./research/abuse_in_social_context.htm

[Susang]

62. Did you read anything I posted?

The Catholic church destroyed any paper trail. Of course they have lower statistics than other institutions. There is no way to find out how many cases there were.

[RUDUing2]

65. the opposite is true..the catholic church kept excellent records which is

why the law suits have been so easy to bring...

[Susang]

69. I'm sorry, but my personal experience tells me otherwise

I suggest you check with the Catholic victim group SNAP.

http://www.snapnetwork.org/

[RUDUing2]

73. you seem to be confused...nobody has said that abuse hasn't happened

or that it wasn't covered up..however one reason that it has been easier to bring suit against Catholic Priest then against protestant preachers or against teachers, policemen, etc is because the church keeps records and have turned those over (reluctantly and under duress in many cases, but still the records were available showing where priest were assigned, complaints filed against the priest, treatment of priest, etc)...in some cases these records have cleared priest (as in the charge against one priest where it was proven he was not assigned to the parish at the time the molestation occured and that an *overnight* trip during which the molestation occurred was actually a *day* trip w/no overnight stay)..in other cases they have proven the church was aware of the problem..

[Susang]

80. No, I am not confused

You have said that church kept accurate and detailed records of information in abuse cases. I say that this was not always the case and used my own personal story to explain my position.

You realize that in the past, the Church had no official way for a layperson to lodge a complaint of this nature against the priest? You had to report it to another priest and what was done with that complaint was up to that man. Many complaints never made it past that stage and no record exists of them. There was an added bonus of fear, as often, the people you told did not believe you, including parents, therefore no records.

I realize it's a bit complicated if you haven't experienced it. You don't have to take my word for it, just read some of the abuse victim's stories.

[Az]

70. I can support Susang's claim

In my travels as a debater in the atheist community I have come across a significant number of individuals that had their faith shattered by a predatory preist. The thing of it is the preists always seem to still be active in congregations.

Each of these individuals have different stories. But the common thread between them all is that the Church stepped in and redirected any prosecution. Some paid off the families. Some applied pressure to get the to drop the issue. But systematically they kept it from the light of day.

Now this is of course heresay. But it is significant enough to suggest that there may be a flaw in believing that the Church has accurate records of these incidents. The break in the process can enter in many places.

[RUDUing2]

75. not an accurate record of the abuses..but an accurate record of

where the priest was and when and of any treatment, etc the priest underwent for *unspecified* problems.....

[Az]

79. So what exactly is our disagreement

Our position is that the clergy is just as suscetible to human failings. There have been cases of coverups. But this is not to enable their predation. Again it is a simple human failing of trying to save face. We are not suggesting that all preists are predators.

So what exactly are we at crossed swords about?

[MichiganVote]

83. "Human" feelings do not lead one to abuse the young or vulnerable

[Az]

85. Oh so those are not humans

Got it.

Its nice to apply names and labels that distance ourselves from things that make us uncomfortable. But the monsters in our midst are as human as you and I. They have desires and drives as you and I. There's are not the same as your's or mine. Just as your and my desires are not the same.

Sometimes people are born with desires that do not mesh with society. Attraction to children is nothing new under the sun. Some cultures at some points have even embraced it. We have come to the realisation that children do not have enough understanding of society and consequences to be able to enter into a consentual relationship with an adult. Thus we protect them from those that are attracted to them.

This social stygma leads to a number of recourses for those plagued with such desires. They either bury them as deep inside as possible or they express them. If they express them they will not do so for long in society if they are open about it. So they go underground. They turn predatory.

A simple glance at advertising demonstrates that our society is saturated with the worship of youth. Ever scene a child beauty pagent? Some people lose sight of the edges where society draws the lines. Biologically we are ready to go at a young age relative to our current social definitions. At one time an unwed person at age 18 was considered a spinster. Society changes. Biological urges don't.

We have to protect the children from such predators. But failing to understand the predators creates opportunity for future disaster.

[MichiganVote]

87. Responding....

"Got it."

- Actually I don't think you do get it which is why I posted.

"Its nice to apply names and labels that distance ourselves from things that make us uncomfortable. But the monsters in our midst are as human as you and I. They have desires and drives as you and I. There's are not the same as your's or mine. Just as your and my desires are not the same."

- Ok. Good speech. So what? First,I am not at all uncomfortable with the idea or reality of perp's. But you would have to know me to know that. Secondly, the fact that perp's are biologically human does not address my point.

"Sometimes people are born with desires that do not mesh with society."

- Really? Infants are born with desires to be predators? Says who? You are WAY behind the research. Learning to be civilized in society does not in any way deprive adults from or otherwise separate them from attaining appropriate sexual partners. Exploitation is not about sexual desire.

"Attraction to children is nothing new under the sun. Some cultures at some points have even embraced it."

- Gee, NAMBLA says the same thing as a defense and endorsement for the sexual abuse of children. Are you aware of NAMBLA? As I stated, healthy adults choose appropriate adult partners.

"We have come to the realization that children do not have enough understanding of society and consequences to be able to enter into a consentual relationship with an adult. Thus we protect them from those that are attracted to them."

- No, actually we do less to protect children from abuse than we do preparing them to swim.

"This social stygma leads to a number of recourses for those plagued with such desires. They either bury them as deep inside as possible or they express them. If they express them they will not do so for long in society if they are open about it. So they go underground. They turn predatory."

- So let me get this straight. You propose that infants are born with the desire to abuse children and the impulse is either sublimated, (psychological term, look it up)or the predator is predetermined to criminally act it out underground? Hmmm...since most abuse is committed by family members in secret and often with the support of family members I wonder just how underground you're talking about. In the latter 1980's the Federal government sponsored a study that revealed that the average number of victims 1 perp will have is 380. You do the rest of the math.

"A simple glance at advertising demonstrates that our society is saturated with the worship of youth. Ever scene a child beauty pagent? Some people lose sight of the edges where society draws the lines. Biologically we are ready to go at a young age relative to our current social definitions. At one time an unwed person at age 18 was considered a spinster. Society changes. Biological urges don't."

- If your argument is that predators are human, they logically have choice, hence you reason against your very assertions. When was the last time you saw anyone get off by defending their criminal sexual acts using biology? Healthy adults enjoy beauty pageants without fantasizing an act of victimization on another for the sake of beauty.

"We have to protect the children from such predators. But failing to understand the predators creates opportunity for future disaster."

- In treatment, all perp's begin by using sexual desire as the motivation for their acts. Satisfactory treatment involves leading a client past that rationalization and into the emotions that actually do propel them to victimize. Sexual abuse is not about sex or sexual desires. It is about many things but you are in error if you believe that to be the case.

[Az]

88. I knew you would take this route

Whether the attraction is power or sexuality the fact remains that there are those that are driven by impulses to pursue inappropriate activities. They do not choose to have these impulses. They become obsessed.

Yes groups like NAMBLA exist. Their arguments fail to overcome the need of society to defend those that cannot yet give their informed consent. It doesn't mean that the members of NAMBLA vanish in a puff of smoke. They are still there and they still have their desires. Calling them monsters won't make them go away. Unless you propose to exterminate monsters.

No a baby is not a predator. Its a little more complex than that. Their brain has to develop further. But the wiring that influences their eventual attractions is already in place. Maybe if we talked to them before they went predatory we could stop some harm. But instead we label such thoughts monsterous and no monster wants to be found. They want what society tells them they cannot have. Some seek help and get it. Others hide themself. Some join inappropriate groups believing it will help only to have the problem surface in a worse fashion.

Yes in practice when a person abuses a child it is predatory. Its because of the childs inability to consent with full knowledge. In order to get what they want the predator has to prey upon them. It is not the hunt that attracts them. It is the desire in the first place that draws them in.

The actual act of taking advantage of a minor is abuse. There is no questioning this. But that is not the motivation of the perp as you call them. They are at odds with society. Their desires by definition are forbidden. They cannot so easily be rid of them. Whether it is to harm another or satisfy their own lust. This is unacceptable to society. And thus it is abuse.

[MichiganVote]

89. Did you? You can read my mind?

"Whether the attraction is power or sexuality the fact remains that there are those that are driven by impulses to pursue inappropriate activities. They do not choose to have these impulses. They become obsessed."

- They also do not choose to work against the impulses or do so only after they have been found out.

" ....They (NAMBLA) are still there and they still have their desires. Calling them monsters won't make them go away. Unless you propose to exterminate monsters."

- I don't recall calling them anything but predators or perpetrators, which they are. NAMBLA has also been associated with child trafficing, a criminal offense. However, organized kidnapping, rape, torture and murder of children is monstrous. Hence, monsters.

"No a baby is not a predator. Its a little more complex than that. Their brain has to develop further. But the wiring that influences their eventual attractions is already in place."

- Says who? The nurture / nature debate been settled for some time you know.

"Maybe if we talked to them before they went predatory we could stop some harm. But instead we label such thoughts monsterous and no monster wants to be found. They want what society tells them they cannot have. Some seek help and get it. Others hide themself. Some join inappropriate groups believing it will help only to have the problem surface in a worse fashion."

- A criminal group is hardly "inappropriate". So how do you propose to ID those who are born predators and those who are not?

"Yes in practice when a person abuses a child it is predatory. Its because of the childs inability to consent with full knowledge. In order to get what they want the predator has to prey upon them. It is not the hunt that attracts them. It is the desire in the first place that draws them in."

- Wrong, wrong, wrong. It IS the hunt and the fantasies before the hunt that propel the compulsion to abuse. The choice to act is the result of dehumanizing the vic.

"The actual act of taking advantage of a minor is abuse. There is no questioning this. But that is not the motivation of the perp as you call them. They are at odds with society. Their desires by definition are forbidden. They cannot so easily be rid of them. Whether it is to harm another or satisfy their own lust. This is unacceptable to society. And thus it is abuse."

- You think that people abuse children out of rebellion against society? Desires are not in themselves forbidden except in some religious circles. Acting on illegal desires is forbidden in society. By your reckoning, perp's violate children in response to what they perceive society would say to them or about them because of the sexual deviation they experience. Were that line of reasoning true, bank robbers too must be in rebellion against society. And embezzlers, or hookers or drug trafficers.

- Exactly when do you propose to hold the perp's accountable for their choices? Not an infant, not a society, not a victim or an ideology. Just the guy or gal or org. that endorses victimization.

[Az]

90. Who's reading who's mind

Sorry. We are not going to progress in this discussion. And we seem to be misunderstanding each other. I will give you this. We both agree that someone that preys upon children is a danger to the society. We seem to disagree in how to address this.

[MichiganVote]

92. Not so. We disagree about the impetus for abuse.

[Az]

103. Wanted to be fair

So I consulted with this subject with a Psychologist friend of mine. And she confirms that there are a variety of impetus for individuals to abuse children. Some do it as you say out of a violent compulsion. Others do it because they are attracted to children (inappropriate in our society).

I further explained my theories to here and she concurred that the idea of cleansing and goodness of the church are in fact a very strong draw for such individuals.

[Az]

64. Thanks for the info

First off let me state that I do not think that religion or any particular sect is maliciosly involved in abuse. However I do believe that the social stature of the clergy in general (all denomination) creates a lure for those that are dealing with problems they believe have to do with a battle between good and evil. In truth it is a battle with their brain and society. They turn to these institutions in hope that their proclomation of goodness will help them with their battle. But it doesn't always work.

Thus when such an individual finds themself in a position of control they can fall to the temptations that still exist because the core problem was never dealt with.

When this happens the reaction of the institution can vary. The problem the Catholic Church ran into recently was not that they were creating predator preists. It was that they were covering them up.

This fact in itself creates a problem for statistics. In secular arenas there are no institutions running interference with the prosecution of sexual predators. But because Churchs fear the stigma of association with such claims, they seek to cover them up on occaisions. We simply do not know if these statitics are accurate. I further note that a number of them are generated by members of the institutions that have demonstrated a history of covering up such incidents. This is troubling.

I do not believe there is a claim that sexual predation is unique to religious beliefs. I readily acknowledge that where there is access to children there is going to be an increase of such incidents. But the issue that most strikes fear into the religious institutions is that the image of the clergy is being destroyed.

This is why they tend to cover these events up. If the idea that Preists and Ministers are susceptible to the same moral failings as anyone else becomes common knowledge then they lose their claim to moral authority to some extent. This is critical to an institution that claims moral authority. They experience a very real drop in membership when such incidents are discovered.

Religious indoctrination is based on the trust people have in the spokespeople that represent the religion. Sully that trust and you destroy their roll in society. This cannot be allowed if the institution is to survive.

[MichiganVote]

81. Abuse in the schools is a terrible thing. But abuse by a priest is

absolutely and totally devastating. If it can be said that there is no higher calling, then it can also be assumed there is no lower action than to abuse, confuse, and frighten the weak or young.

Sorry, the priest abuse scandal bit the church in the ass. Had to happen sooner or later. If it happens to other institutions, so much the better.

[CatholicEug]

25. Actually, very few Christians have this mindset

If they did, it would be partying/immorality all the time. The historical/liturgical churches believe that grace can be lost through serious sin (what Catholics call "mortal sin") but it can also be reclaimed through SINCERE REPENTANCE. This is more than just saying "Sorry." This is penitence, showing a changing of the ways.

[arwalden]

34. Oh? Really? Hmmm.

[AngryOldDem]

40. Catholics, for one, don't

We are always mindful that we are human and therefore not perfect, and subject to fall prey to sin. Thus the focus on penance and absolution.

There are, though, some denominations that do believe in "once saved, always saved." But Catholics aren't one of them.

[Susang]

45. I think you misread the post

I don't believe he was speaking of the "once saved, always saved" type of forgiveness.

The post was referring to the mindset of "I'll always be forgiven", which is definitely a core Catholic doctrine. The caveat is that the sinner has to be truly repentful. I know that when I was younger, that forgiveness of any sin was something I counted on quite a bit.

[AngryOldDem]

52. I was referring to the post below that which doubted that

Of course you have to approach reconciliation with a truly repentant heart and attitude. And you will be forgiven. But that does not absolve you of all future sins.

"Oh really? Hmm..." sounds as if the poster were doubting the veracity of that belief.

[Susang]

56. I think he was doubting the subject line of that post.

The one that said that very few Catholics had that mind set. If I was reading it correctly.

[arwalden]

67. Yes. That Is What I Meant.

I'm in no position to prove a negative.

[peacebird]

61. i love businesses who display that little fish

lets me know in advance not to bother shopping there.

the good christians i knew growing up never wore religion on their sleeve, or spoke about it outside of church. they let their actions proclaim their beliefs.

[arwalden]

82. You Make A Compelling Argument...

... that I happen to agree with.

[CatholicEug]

26. This is false

see below

[UTUSN]

21. There Was a Sleazeball-hypocrite Employee with a Bible

He would be seen reading the Bible 5 minutes before work. He was a serial seducer at the workplace, indifferent to job responsibilities and to clients. When the contradiction between his "Christian" professions and his actual deeds were brought up once, he replied, "I'm a---------STRUGGLING---------Christian." This might sound like a-------gasp---------JUDGMENT, but imho he could have achieved a bit more with less "struggle".

[bobd]

24. Christians Aren't Perfect - They Just Act That Way

n/t

[Az]

27. A reason for such things (and it doesn't blame the religion itself)

Much of our drive and interest comes from wiring in our heads. We do not choose who we are attracted to. We recognise who we are attracted to. Some people are happily attacted to adult members of the opposite sex. I say happily because any variation on this theme is not fully accepted by society. Thus variation brings social rejection of varying degrees.

Some forms of variation have been accepted to some degree by society. They are not directly harmful to society and acceptance of them is the result of this enlightenment. They are harming no one and it is their natural disposition.

But for some. They find themself attracted to individuals and things that are not yet or are not able to be accepted by society. This is by no choice of their own. They simply are drawn to things which society clearly defines as evil. No one wishes to be evil. We have a natural drive to want to fit in with society (initially). So there is a natural reation to want to rid oneself of this drive.

To this end many attempt to embrace functions and structures in society that are supposed to make one a better character. They try to draw goodness into themself. They move towards systems that project images of moral strength and certainty.

Religion is the perfect draw for someone such as this. And the clergy in particular seems to offer them the perfect way to rid themself of these demons they feel torn by. And for a time this may even work. The path such a sectarian approach puts an individual through typically isolates from the very thing they are drawn to. Thus for a time the temptation is withdrawn. But once they are through the training process a new danger presents itself.

Once enshrined in the roll of minister, preist, or any such title they gain the social benefit of being trusted automatically by society (particularly members of their denomination and more so their congregation). Members of the Clergy gain an automatic patena of trust from much of society. They are men and women of God. Whats not to trust? And this is where their hell truly begins.

Suddenly they find themself as trusted guardians of exactly those individuals whom they are drawn to. And they have done nothing in all their studies that will have eliminated this temptation. They have simply been removed from it. Where before social pressure and situations may have kept them from being able to act on their desires, now they have it practically pushed in their face. And they have the means of control via the trust placed in them.

It is a sad situation. It is not a deliberate one on the Churchs part. Perhaps if they approached sexuality and desires as more of a result of the brain rather than as an evil taint they could address such problems. But that is the extent of their contribution (except in the case of coverups).

Throughout history the Church has often been the repositry of those that don't quite fit society. They in all honesty do try to make the best of it. But their rigid moral structure can create problems beyond what already exist. It is not a conscious malevelant cause. It is merely a systematic aspect of the nature of dogmatic belief confronting social anamolies.

[arwalden]

32. I'm Bookmarking That!

Glad to see you posting more, Az! Thanks for that one... I enjoy reading your insights.

Even though this comment is a little off-topic, I think what you described here might help to explain the likes of Fred Phelps. I'm certain that his hatred and crusade against homos is the result of his fighting off his own "demons" and that he seeks to deny himself that which he is attracted to by persecuting it. After all, who in his circle would EVER suspect him of wanting the thing he hates so much?

[MichiganVote]

84. Sexual predators are not simply "attracted" to others, esp. the young

Sorry too simple and not an adequate explanation for the myriad of details that make up a predators MO. That is a frame of thought that essentially blames the victim for somehow being something special to the predator. Believe me when I say that predators could give a rat's ass about their victim. They lack both reality and empathy. Victims spend countless hours in therapy trying to shed this "special" identity until they are ready to realize they were used for the sexual gratification of an adult who used them because they were available. Not because they were drawn to them as people or even as attractive people.

Healthy adult males and females do not experience "attraction" to youth.

Also, on the contrary, the Roman catholic Church did deliberately conceal the sexual abuse of scores of victims. No doubt other institutions have done the same. Frankly, I believe most still do.

[patcox2]

28. Isn't this spam, posting again and again after getting locked?

eom

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Az]

30. Getting dizzy

:eyes:

[arwalden]

33. Yes! I Opened Five New Windows...

... before I figured out it was linking to itself. (Not including the hot-potato forum-to-forum pass-around from earlier.) :crazy: My head is still spinning.

Unfortunately the "dupe" lock arrived just before I submitted my reply to your other message (above). What you see there now is a shadow of the original post that was a bit longer and better constructed. When I clicked "submit" on my first version, I got an error message letting me know the thread was LOCKED... and by the time I figured out that it wasn't locked anymore, I couldn't recover the original text. Sigh.

Oh well.

[wildwww2]

37. They can forgive all they want. I`ll never trust a Christian again ever.

Being a Christian to me will always go hand in hand with being a lying theif. Until I get to know the person really, really well. And find out the contrary then I will assume he or she may be an untrustworthy nutzoid like my two sisters and their worse than Nazi. Corporate connected repuke spouses.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[superconnected]

107. gee are all muslims terrorists for you?

I'll asume from your mentality, the answer is yes.

[regnaD kciN]

108. Interesting combination, there...

I`ll never trust a Christian again ever.

(...)

Being a Christian to me will always go hand in hand with being a lying theif (sic) .

(...)

Al Gore is My President

Uh...in case you weren't aware of it, Al Gore is a Christian.

:crazy:

[gordianot]

41. Situational ethics, Moral Relativist the bane of all fundamentalist.

They mean what they say as long as it does not apply to them.

[Behind the Aegis]

66. sickening

This is just sick! They have "out in G-d's hands?!" Why not stand up against it!?! Sure, they fired his ass, but is that all they will do?! Will they provide counseling for the children harmed while in their care?! Put it in the LAW'S hands!!!

[RUDUing2]

76. it is in the laws hands..the FBI's.

[Behind the Aegis]

78. Good

It should be...nor should they (the owner's) be complacent. I hope they will participate in this man's prosecution!

[RUDUing2]

93. I would hope so as well...

I took their comment about leaving it in Gods hands to mean that they left it to God to pass judgement on his soul...not that they meant the law didn't have the right to prosecute him on a human level...IMO it is two seperate issues..

religious punishment of which they are leaving in Gods hands..
and secular punishment which is left in the hands of law enforcement..

[AngryOldDem]

102. That is exactly what the comment meant

That is how some people handle adversity. For them, it works. Who are we to judge or mock?

[davidinalameda]

68. this isn't Christian bashing

this is the bashing of a person who pretends to be Christian

there are plenty of those out there

[arwalden]

77. And Bingo Was His Name-O!

[patrice]

72. Ergo, it doesn't matter what they do. They're forgiven.

So they don't have to figure out what is best behavior.

They don't have to grow up like the rest of us and accept the responsibility that they preach to others.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

91. God may forgive them but I don't

(thank Rosie Flores...she said it first)

[LDS Jock]

94. how many times can one thread be moved to a different forum?

at least four times apparently
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x5260

[SemperEadem]

97. however.. we all are, too

forgiveness isn't only for the christians. it's for anyone who asks.

however, that forgiveness is predicated upon repenting--and repenting doesn't entitle one to not change tack and continue in sinful behavior--lying, cheating, stealing, oppressing, persecuting the poor... one is commanded to act in a way which could identify them has having Jesus in him.

also, forgiveness does not condone pridefulness... by saying "we're not perfect, we're forgiven" is the same as saying "we're better than you"... and that alludes to pride, which goes before destruction and a haughty spirit before the fall. Pride is the first of the seven deadly sins mentioned in the bible and is the most odius as far as God is concerned, according to the bible they read and are commanded to believe is his word.

[Bouncy Ball]

99. I hate hate hate hate that saying.

It's SO damn smug and self-righteous.

Ug.

[AngryOldDem]

104. Why?

I make mistakes daily -- hell, hourly. I'd like to think that I can be forgiven for them, if I am sincere in my admission and desire for atonement.

Like anything else, the fringe element can twist that statement to mean anything it wants. But that does not reflect what it means to most of us who practice Christianity.

What is smug, in my opinion, is NOT making that admission.

[Bouncy Ball]

105. It makes it sound as if no one else is forgiven, that's why.

How do I know if *I* am the only person forgiven by God?

I'm Christian, by the way.

[AngryOldDem]

106. That's not the way I see it

Some may have the mistaken conclusion that Christians are of the mindset that they are perfect, especially after they become "born again," etc. Even some Christians themselves, unfortuately.

We all fall short and we all sin, and we all have to have that constant assurance of forgiveness. If we stumble, we can pick up and move on. To me, there's great comfort in knowing that. It should not give be carte blanche to sin, of course, but I know that I will sin but that I can be forgiven.

[VOX]

100. Yeah, "forgiven," so they aren't responsible or accountable for anything.

BULLSHIT!!!! :grr: