Official Alberto Gonzales Hearing Thread #2

[otohara]

Original thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2910799&mesg_id=2910799

[Solly Mack]

1. Thnak you, otohara!!!

[janx]

2. Brownbag likes the fact that Gonzo is from

HUMBLE, Texas.

!!!!!!!!!!

[Ian David]

5. Re-posting my posts from another thread

247396, Gonzales: Use of torture was right, Consistent with American values
Posted by IanDB1 on Thu Jan-06-05 11:42 AM

"winning the hearts and minds of the arab world... you have hurt that... undermine military culture.. violating geneva convention...

did you ever consider the impact this could have on winning the hearts and minds of the arab world.

Would you do the same thing to again.

GONZALES SAYS IT WAS ABSOLUTELY THE RIGHT TING FOR SO MANY REASONS:

1- DISHONORS THE GENEVA CONVENTION
2- REWARDS BAD ACTION
3- HELPS US PROTECT OURSELVES

MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE

CONTRARY TO DECADES OF PRESIDENTIAL PRIVILEGE

The US andmany other countries never ratified granting POW legal status to terrorists.

WE WON'T DO THAT. IT HURTS OUR SOLDIERS.

PRESIDENT DID THE RIGHT THING!!!

"We do not treat people inconsistent with our American values."

EXCUSE ME!!!!!!!

"We do not treat people inconsistent with our American values."


247484, Were these atrocities low-level decisions...
Posted by IanDB1 on Thu Jan-06-05 11:48 AM

or did they come from above?

"We don't know. We're investigating soldiers."

Torture as policy is different from the abuses in the pictures.

The ones we see in the pictures those do not relate to policy and interrogation.

THIS IS SIMPLY PEOPLE WHO WERE MORALLY BANKRUPT HAVING FUN AND I DO NOT CONDONE THAT.

The bad behavior migrated from one facility to another, because there was some "confusion" about appropriate behavior.

Abuse was not because of policy, but because we had a prison understafded, undersupported, undersupervised, under trained.

("That would seem like people above responsible will not be prosecuted. I think the american people by and large, gonzales, believe the people should be held accountable ABOVE THE LEVEL OF THOSE THAT COMMITTED THE ACTION).

Gonzales agrees.

There was failure of leadership above at the supervisors, failure of training at commander and sargeant.

"do you believe we never should have used torture?"

SELF-CONTRADICTION: GONZALES SAYS AMERICA HAS NEVER HAD A POLICY OF TORTURE! (SEE MY PREVIOUS POST).

247534, Republican Lindsey Graham
Posted by IanDB1 on Thu Jan-06-05 11:52 AM

Republican Lindsey Graham:

You have undermined the war on terror.

Abu Grahib has become a stick for the rest of the world to beat us with.

Part of my job in the military was to explain military law.

You are to follow it because it is there to protect you.

I agree with you gonzales that giving geneva protection to terrorists would legitimize the terrorists and undermine the convention.

to those who think that taking torture of the table is a sign of weakness.

powell has been in combat. i think you weaken yourself as a nation when you become more like your enemy.

i disagree with secty powell.

now having said that, the justice dept memo was entirely wrong in its focus because it EXCLUDED ANOTHER CODE OF LAW CALLED THE UNIFORM RULES OF MILITARY CONDUCT.

Those classified memos say if you go down the road suggested you will lose our identity as a nation.

this memo put our military in jeopardy BECAUSE THE UNIFORM CODE FORBIDS ABUSING A PRISONER.

It shows our troops they have an obligation to follow the law.

I want you to comment and defend your actions

247593, Gonzales: I disagree
Posted by IanDB1 on Thu Jan-06-05 11:58 AM

We are nothing like our enemy.

Daniel Pearl...

(I am not saying we are like our enemy, but we are not who we want to be. we are losing our moral highground. once you start down this road... my challengeb to you is leading without losing our legitimacy. Guantanomo is a chaos. Humanity is not inconsistent with winning the war...)

With Guantanomo, the supreme court disagreed with policy. I believe an enemy combatant held outside us territory is not guaranteed due process.

Secretary England has responsibility for tribunals "substantial opportunity to refute charges."

(WHat is the executive dept doing to reconcile the court and your policy? I'll vote for you. My problem is the DOJ memo was out there for 2 years, but I'd like to get you to comment if you could, do you beliebe that a professional lawyer's oppinion that violating the military code of justice may put our troops in jeopardy?)

VERY LONG PAUSE BY GONZALES.

(You don't need to answer that right now.)

HE LET HIM OFF THE HOOK!!!!!

[Solly Mack]

6. lol

[Solly Mack]

3. on to recidivism

[UTUSN]

4. SCHUMER Lays Out the Criterion for Approving This Job as Opposed to SCOTUS

"Just because we vote yes this time, because the pRez should have leeway in Executive branch nominees as opposed to the independent judiciary, like Supreme Court" it doesn't mean we won't be MUCH tougher on SCOTUS nominees. Oh, oh-tay.


SCHUMER: "You must know what the Constitution says, you are being nominated for (the top job dealing with the law). Find me the words in the Constitution that say there must be a majority vote..."

The stupidhead GONZALES ducks the question, "Please allow me time to go back and check MY Constitution..."

[Solly Mack]

8. I have no doubt he has his own specially written one

[two gun sid]

13. Bet its an abridged version

Leaves off the Bill Of Rights!

[Solly Mack]

15. Yep!

[phylny]

11. One of the many reasons I really like Schumer.

He's smart, he's savvy, and he's nobody's idiot.

I LOVE the fact that he tossed it back in Gonzles' face, reminding him that he's had PLENTY of time to form an opinion or view.

[Ian David]

14. Sen. Brownnose: Faith-based prisons, pornography addiction

I hope you'll enforce community standards on obscenity.

Gonzales: I will look at this and deal with it.

[two gun sid]

7. Faith-based prison LOL

[Solly Mack]

10. thats where the guards can torture you but they get forgiven

[TOOLZ]

9. AN OUTRAGE

How can Bush's personal lawyer be appointed the Top Cop? He will be immune from prosecution, innocent Iraqis in a late-night round up will not be immune from the worst human rights abuses. We have lost so much credibility in the eyes of the world since Abu Grahib, then againw ith the Navy pictures, this is only sealing our fates as unrepentant infidels.

[Just Me]

41. This administration has lost all credibility with ME!!!

Gonzales opines that the president "theoretically" can usurp the power of both the judicial and legislative branches and render a law "unconstitutional".

That opinion orients more around "dictatorship" than "democracy" or the U.S. Constitution which creates three branches of government in order to balance powers.

That opinion should scare the beegeezus out of every American citizen!!!!

[elehhhhna]

48. When does he "theoretically" name himself "Prez for Life"?

[elehhhhna]

49. When does he "theoretically" name himself "Prez for Life"?

[frylock]

12. thank goodness brownnose is speaking to the horrors of pr0n addiction

:eyes:

[two gun sid]

16. Yes, and all those minors trying to get abortions

without parental consent!

[Solly Mack]

17. Oh yeah. for the safety of america we really need gonzales (NOT)

[UTUSN]

18. Anybody Know LIMBOsevic's Call-in Phone #?

Yesterday he and his dittoheads were harping on how "Hispanics should be OUTRAGED that this is the SECOND Hispanic the Dems have bloodied up."

Yeah, right, like they really ARE bloodying this dude up. They're practically tonguing him. But the real point is that, like ESTRADA or Clarence THOMAS, opposition to this dude is NOT race-based, it is on his EITHER being 1) a committed wingnut OR 2) (more likely) an errand boy.

[Solly Mack]

19. torture tactics float through the air, travel over the seas, and

then land in other countries. All by themselves

[UTUSN]

21. Oh, the Torture Was Limited to the Night Shift, Well Alrighty Then n/t

[Solly Mack]

23. Makes all the difference...just one shift of torture

gawds

[Solly Mack]

20. "consistent with american values" ("procedures" for intell)

I think I'll pass on those american values, thanks

[Solly Mack]

22. He didn't say it wasn't torture..he said "our policy is that we didn't

engage in torture." IOW's...they don't think it was torture so it wasn't torture

[Ian David]

24. Gonzales: Ultimately, the courts will make that decision

You mean ACTIVIST JUDGES???

"I am concerned you would allow a president to decide what is constitutional and then wait for the courts to make the decision."

[two gun sid]

25. Who cares what the SCOTUS said 52 years ago

9-11 changed everything. This shit is unbelievable.

[Solly Mack]

26. "mistakes" torture is now a mistake? like when I forget to carry a number

in my checkbook?

[two gun sid]

29. If you wrote bad checks because of it

that would be a crime.

[Solly Mack]

30. no shit lol but I could torture and never go to jail

[two gun sid]

32. Yes, that would be consistent with american values

[Solly Mack]

35. Yes, that's what I found out today

[seemslikeadream]

27. Jay Bybee

Cold Fronts

The London case involves our old friends, BCCI, the international bank that served as the front for a global crime ring involving top officials and Establishment worthies in dozens of "civilized" nations. BCCI ran guns to Saddam and other heavies, funded Pakistan's illegal nuclear weapons program, laundered drug profits, peddled prostitutes, doled out bribes, served as a conduit for covert CIA operations -- and, through its connections to the bin Laden family, gave George W. Bush a sweetheart loan of $25 million to bail out one of his many business failures.

....

That's because the trial could open a can of particularly grubby worms concerning the British government's extensive canoodling with BCCI. A host of worthies are expected to be grilled in the dock, including John Major, former British prime minister and current business partner of George Bush I in yet another secretive international front that profits from war, weapons, violence, repression and the greasing of highly-placed palms: the Carlyle Group.

....

The Italian bank BNL was one of BCCI's main tentacles. BNL's Atlanta branch was the primary funnel used by the first Bush administration to send millions of secret dollars to Saddam for arms purchases, including deadly chemicals and other WMD materials supplied by the Chilean arms dealer Cardoen and various politically connected operators in the United States like, weapons merchant Matrix Churchill. (As always with the Busha Nostra, geopolitics -- in this case, helping Saddam wage aggressive war against Iran -- and crony profits go hand in hand. Once the war was over and Iran was left a shattered hulk, with millions dead and displaced, the useful idiot Saddam was expendable, swiftly morphing from good buddy into budding Hitler.)

As soon as the BNL case broke, President Bush I moved to throttle the investigation. He appointed lawyers from both Cardoen and Matrix to top Justice Department posts -- where they supervised the officials investigating their old companies. Meanwhile, White House aides applied heavy pressure on other prosecutors to restrict the range of the probe -- especially the fact that Bush Cabinet officials Brent Scowcroft and Lawrence Eagleburger had served as consultants for BNL during their pre-White House days as spear-carriers for yet another secretive international front that profits from war, weapons, etc., etc.: Kissinger Associates.

Which brings us to the judicial appointment. One of the White House aides who unlawfully intervened in the BNL prosecution was a certain factotum named Jay ByBee. Last week, said factotum was nominated by the current warmer of the Oval Office seat, George W. Bush, to a place on the federal appeals court -- a lifetime sinecure of perks and power. Well done, thou good and faithful servant!

And the commodities connection? President Pretzel's relentless hissy-fit for war on Iraq has of course goosed the price of gold enormously -- and that's set Bush Family coffers a-clinking. How so? In the waning days of his failed presidency, Bush I invoked an obscure 1872 statute to give a Canadian firm, Barrick Corp., the right to mine $10 billion in gold from U.S. public lands. (U.S. taxpayers got a whopping $10,000 fee in return.) Bush then joined Barrick as a highly paid "international consultant," brokering deals with various dictators of his close acquaintance. Barrick reciprocated with big bucks for Junior's presidential run. And in another quid for the old pro quo, last year Junior dutifully approved Barrick's controversial acquisition of a major rival. (Barrick is also one of the biggest polluters in America, by the way.)

more
http://www.makethemaccountable.com/floyd/030214_ColdFronts.htm

[underpants]

28. My recap here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2911829#

[Solly Mack]

31. I love it!!!!!!!

[Catfight]

33. Any questions regarding his Enron loyalty? n/t

[underpants]

36. No nor any about Halliburton campaign donations to Texas judges

None what so ever.

[two gun sid]

37. I wasted my time watching the hearing

your recap told me everything I needed to know.

[underpants]

38. Thanks

Welcome to DU :hi:

[Solly Mack]

40. Hey! You are new aren't you? lol WELCOME!!!!!

You've been a most enjoyable fellow hearing watcher!!!!!!

[two gun sid]

42. Thanks, Usually at work during the day but I've got the flu

[Solly Mack]

45. Hope you feel better soon!!!!!

I'll be back to this thread when they resume....the certification of the presidential votes were challenged. Currently tuned to CSPAN on line

[Just Me]

34. I am TOTALLY freaked out at Gonzales opinion that

"theoretically" this President can basically ignore both the legislative AND judicial branch and proclaim a law "unconstitutional"!!

Does that man have any freakin' clue the gravity of such an opinion?!?!

DAMN!!!

This cabal scares the living crap out of me!!! :scared:

[Solly Mack]

39. we should all be scared...very scared

But hey! he promises to do better (cough)

[RuleofLaw]

43. I noticed that too

I thought it was the job of the Courts to declare a law unconstitutional. But, according to TortureZales, the President can choose to follow the law or not all by himself.:eyes:

[Just Me]

44. He advocates that the president can VIOLATE a law,...

,...enacted by the legislative branch,...and continue in violation until SCOTUS rules otherwise.

Crazier still,...even after the SCOTUS makes a ruling (example; the Gitma cases),...the president can continue to push the line until SCOTUS, again, rules against him.

He advocates a defiance of our own form of government, if the president so chooses to do so.

THAT is called a dictatorship or totalitarianism!!!

[idiosyncratic]

46. The political cartoonists get it . . .

[Solly Mack]

47. ROFL! So true!!!!!!!!

[two gun sid]

50. What concerns me Arlen is criminals with magic bullets

[RuleofLaw]

51. Can the president immunize those who commits torture under his orders?

Question by Senator Leahy:

Answer: Hypothetical question that is not going to happen.

Totally avoids the question.

Says Bush will not approve torture

"I am not prepared to give you an opinion"

[two gun sid]

52. American citizen or enemy combatant? We'll be the judge

[RuleofLaw]

53. How can this guy be the next AG?

He can't remember if he requested the Torture Memo?

Now he is totally distancing himself from everything in the memo.

[two gun sid]

54. Hey, Ted's gonna ask him about US law

[RuleofLaw]

55. He cannot answer one single question!

[RuleofLaw]

56. His name is all over the memos

yet he cannot answer a single question.

He keeps holding on to the fact that the torture memo was rejected so no need to look at it.

Ted Kennedy keeps hammering him!

[Solly Mack]

57. tuning back in

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

58. Side note... I've been to a teenagers' press conference with Gonzales.

Even there he would avoid questions, and it wasn't even being videotaped/recorded. The questions weren't even earth-shattering. This was before we could have questioned him about Abu Ghraib and numerous other Bush idiocies. It didn't matter. Whenever a question was asked, he'd fancy up the question, reform it, and spit it back out. There was absolutely no answer in anything he said. He's doing the same thing now and I hope most of the senators will be able to see that.

:grr:

[Just Me]

59. Tactic to avoid telling a lie and evade the truth,...don't answer,...

the question!!!

Distract/divert/divulge in anything other than that which is a direct answer to a question.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

77. Yep

The Republicans seem to do a decent job at avoiding questions. Gonzales is no exception.

[two gun sid]

60. Sessions willing to excuse torture because of 9-11

[Solly Mack]

61. How big of him

[two gun sid]

62. New AG approves torture for crackheads

[Solly Mack]

63. Yo! Senator. This is a confirmation hearing...not a chance to

campaign and feed Gonzales softballs. You do remember your job, yes?


Kennedy up now

Immigration/civil rights/death penalty issues:

gah..Kennedy quoted Norquist. That had to hurt.

[Solly Mack]

64. Gonzales is using every excuse in the book for not answering a question

[two gun sid]

65. He won't even answer the softballs the repugs are throwin' him

[Solly Mack]

67. Yet they act so pleased with his non-answers

[Solly Mack]

66. I'll review. I'll get back to you. I'll check into that. I can't answer.

Gonzales: I'm going to play this charade out so the people watching will continue to delude themselves into believing they have a choice in government. Fact is, I'm not answering a damn question and there's nothing you can do about it. (well, ok. that's me speaking for Gonzales...but somebody's gotta answer for him...he's not answering.)

[Solly Mack]

68. I'm not prepared at this time but I look forward to meeting with you

about it

[two gun sid]

69. LOL.

we got more out your post than we've got from Gonzo all day.

[Solly Mack]

70. Just doing my part

[Solly Mack]

71. He finally said it. "I don't recall" ..the usual republican answer

whew...for a minute there I thought he was reading from a new script

[two gun sid]

72. This is our new AG

I trust him to protect my civil rights less than I trusted John Mitchell.

[Solly Mack]

73. NO! let him non-respond in person!!!!! we won't get to read his memo

until it gets leaked 2 years from now

[two gun sid]

76. Yeah, like when he screws up so bad

that the Bush Admin feels the need to discredit and dump him.

[Solly Mack]

74. I wished my parents had been this soft on me..and so polite too

[Solly Mack]

75. "I'll be as responsive as I reasonably can"

Oh, great.

[Solly Mack]

78. Oh goody! Gonzales is going to do his best

Boy, do I feel better now

[two gun sid]

80. We are fucked. At least Leahy said he was not responsive.

[Solly Mack]

81. We've been fucked..no kissing . no hugging...just screwed

[Solly Mack]

79. Please, Gonzales, come to us for help. Please!!!!

Yeah, that's gonna happen...it worked so well before

[two gun sid]

82. This might get good. I heard these guys hate Gonzo.

[Solly Mack]

83. " we hold these gifts in trust for our progeny" I finally got it!!!

*we* can't have democracy because they've put it in a lock box for people of the future

[Solly Mack]

84. well, ok...gonzales is being spanked by the witness

[Solly Mack]

85. bless this man....they'll never "hear" what he is saying

and gonzales will be confirmed

[Solly Mack]

87. hehe "nomination to AG is NOT accountability" (for torture)

"if gonzales becomes ag after this (torture), we (america) would have failed to undo a wrong"

[two gun sid]

89. Gonzales should be made to sit and listen to what these real

americans have say!

[Solly Mack]

90. I agree

[two gun sid]

86. There are a whole group of ex-military that

want to stop Gonzales. They know that torture will ruin the military.

[Solly Mack]

88. Yes. But these "support the troops" lip servicers don't extend that

support to actually heeding their voices

[two gun sid]

92. You are right

I am ex-military and that "support the troops" bullshit makes me sick. I support the troops. I just don't believe supporting them means committing them to an illegal war that we can bring nothing but ruin. For us and the world.

[Solly Mack]

91. People are missing the best part of the hearing

[Solly Mack]

93. "political miscalculations,... moral lapses,... fantasy"

(memos based on)


"we believe it is important that these discretions not be shaped by speculation but by how torture is actually used in the world...torture doe not yield credible information.....torture will not be used only against the guilty..."

[two gun sid]

94. " Once torture is used it broadens"

[Solly Mack]

95. round of applause for witnesses so far (from me)

[Solly Mack]

97. 3rd witness

"....I appear today...on gonzales regarding....the clear and absolute illegalities of torture....the non-constitutional powers of a president to override laws against torture...the power does not exist for a president to override those laws...no one is above the law (president) or outside the law (illegal combatants)....gonzales has created the impression that the president lives outside the law..."

torture memo:

"US is committed to a world without torture...how did we move from zero tolerance to where we are now.....the bybee memorandum is the most erroneous ever...." "what memo suggest to do is what saddam himself did and we were against"

"president does not have the constitutional power to override laws on torture"....such a notion was rejected at nuremberg"

"lack of clarity in gonzales' answers..."

"left unchallenged, such thinking can lead to bigger atrocities..."

[Solly Mack]

98. 3rd witness cont.

"gonzales memo created a permissible environment for torture..."

"gonzales memo became executive policy...."

"ag has a duty not just to serve his client but to uphold the constitution"

"is the anti-torture constutitonal?...if so, then it cannot be overridden by the president" (question congress should have asked gonzales)

[two gun sid]

96. Hmmm....2000.....who took office after 2000......?

[Solly Mack]

99. If a meteor was headed to earth and a little 6 year old girl had knowledge

to stop it, is torture acceptable then?"

I stretch the truth....slightly

[two gun sid]

100. ROFLMAO

[Solly Mack]

101. "is torture ever acceptable?" ...

witness 3..." no exception to the law...exception creates loophole that waters down into other areas and causes problem..."

No that idiot congresscritter didn't just call that man's answer the "hypothetical answer"...considering his raining bombs scenario...to preface the question of "is torture ever acceptable"

[two gun sid]

103. I went to get some soup. Why are they talking about the next

episode of "24"?

[Solly Mack]

104. I might have missed that comment while I was screaming at my computer

but hey, I'll get back with you and I look forward to discussing it with you. :)

Seriously, I was screaming

[Solly Mack]

102. well damn..don't give them pointers

[Solly Mack]

105. oh fer goodness sake..stop thanking spector for being chairman

already...

[Solly Mack]

106. "do you believe prez. has constutitional right to lock up an individual

indefinitely"

witness.."no"

"everyone gets hearing to determine status even if not POW's"

[two gun sid]

107. Interrogate them don't torture them

[Solly Mack]

108. "they are human beings and we treat them with the respect

as human beings...as we would americans..."


heh...gonzales is in never-neverland

[two gun sid]

109. Bush has really miscalculated

the military is not gonna take this lying down. Bushco blames the soldiers for the torture and the military does not that. Those bastards are gonna get even sooner or later.

[Solly Mack]

110. Yeah they will

it's gonna get ugly

[Solly Mack]

111. boohoo..couldn't get into yale so let me condescend to the dean of yale

law school

[Solly Mack]

112. hehe...it's naive...but not you senator...lololol

[Solly Mack]

114. look here you idiot...just because they behave that way doesn't mean we

behave that way...

since when do we measure our standards by terrorists?

[Solly Mack]

115. OMG "lawyers disagree" (so I think torture is OK and you don't)

so you aren't right..you're just stating an opinion..not legal fact (even if it is legal fact)

[two gun sid]

118. I just don't get it

I think they want me to believe 9-11 so changed the world that good is bad and bad is good.

[Solly Mack]

120. Oh, you get it alright. Cause that's it exactly

[two gun sid]

113. Why do the repugs have such a hard time

understanding: torture is never allowed. If you are not a POW then you a civilian and subject to criminal law.

[Solly Mack]

116. cause it ruins their fantasy

[Solly Mack]

117. what an idiot. I need a drink. Can I sue this fool for chewing my thumb

nail off?

[Solly Mack]

119. Nener neener mr yale law school dean who wouldn't accept me into yale

I've got legal scholars saying we can torture those al kitties...so there!

course, these same people call Ann Coulter a legal scholar...

[Solly Mack]

122. all done for today?

it's after midnight here (europe)

[two gun sid]

124. That's it. Good talkin' to ya

[Solly Mack]

125. you too!!!

get well soon!

[greyfox]

121. Just heard....

news said the Repukes don't care what the Demos say --- he is going In!!! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....

[Solly Mack]

123. I expected as much

[two gun sid]

126. I think they are going to piss the military brass off with this guy

Lookout for leaks denigrating Bushco handling of the war on terror. It started yesterday when some general said that Bushco had broken the reserves and they were no longer effective.

[greyfox]

127. Yeah, BUT....

The Shrub has all power right now for some reason -- and it is infuriating as heck!!!!

[two gun sid]

128. I know it

but, but Bush is so drunk with power he feels he can do and say anything. He makes enemies everyday. It will be his downfall. History is on our side.

[greyfox]

129. Indeed...but...

how many will die before that comes to fruition. 2008 cannot come fast enough to protect us all. The Shrub is so Hitleresque... and his cronies are letting him rule and run.

[two gun sid]

130. Many will die.

And that is a great tragedy. But, until we as a people find the moral courage to stand up to this evil my only hope is that Bushco will finally overreach himself.

Don't misunderstand me. I do not think that the military is a white knight. They most definitely are not. It is possible, in my mind, that they would have no problem with taking over this country if threatened. But, until we stand up and say, "How dare you appoint this cheap punk as our chief law officer!" my only hope is factions in the government turn on one and other.

But, I could be all wrong.

[Solly Mack]

131. eek! this nightmare is back!

I'm still fuming over Gonzales non-answers.

[adigal]

132. How many have they pissed off??

1. The CIA with Porter Goss - not smart to piss off professional spies. Anyone notice how many leaks have been coming out about this president, torture, Gonzales, any and all topics, more so than the whole of the first 4 years.

2. The military - for blatant disregard of the soldiers' safety with regard to torturing our enemy.

3. They have pissed off the FBI, so many retired agents are speaking out about torture they have seen in Guantanamo and other places.

And how long will it be before something comes out about this group that sticks? And the repubs are NOT going to go down for this president. Self-preservation is rule # 1.

[Solly Mack]

133. Gonzales' hearing alone pissed off a motherlode

because he constantly blamed everyone for that torture memo and the torture at Abu Ghraib...but himself or Shrub.

[RuleofLaw]

134. One thing they never talked about

How do you determine that you are torturing the right guy?

I think thats the whole rationale behind not torturing people. If you have to torture someone for information, you don't know if you have the right person.

They keep saying that if they are Al-Queida then they are not protected. But how the hell do we know if we have the right people?

We don't!

[two gun sid]

135. They sure didn't talk about it

They can't justify any of their policy. I found it interesting that they brought up the fact that the insurgents are beheading people. I never heard them mention that the be-headings started after we started torturing prisoners.
This policy is disastrous. The administration is the most wrongheaded and dangerous in history.