Are you considering changing parties?

[Ladyhawk]

[Stand and Fight]

1. True Blue here.

I'm no "fair-weather" Democrat.
:hi:

[hvn_nbr_2]

32. "fair-weather"

I think of that epithet "fair-weather" as meaning something different than I interpret you to mean.

For example, if I am a fan of a sports team (most common usage of "fair-weather" that I encounter), then if I stop cheering for them when they're 1 and 10 for the season, then I'm a fair-weather fan.

But if the team just walks off the field without playing the game or if they decide to change into a rock billiards team or a diaper-sniffing team or a square-wheel drag-racing team, then it doesn't make me a fair-weather fan to stop supporting or cheering for them.

If the Dems were actually losing elections and I left, then I'd be a f-w Dem, but when they won't even fight for elections they win and, even more important, won't even fight for the basic principles of democracy and of America, then leaving wouldn't make me a f-w Dem.

If the Dem Party lived up to your username "Stand and Fight," then I wouldn't be thinking of leaving, but their username seems to be "Walk Off and Submit."

[seemunkee]

54. Fair Weather? Where were my senators and rep today?

Wynn couldn't even be bothered to vote, I doubt if he was even there. Mikulski and Sarbanes didn't say a word. FUCK EM.

I haven't missed even a primary and have voted straight Dem ticket for over 20 years. No more voting for Dems just to keep a Repub from getting in. If the Dems want my vote they need to work for it and STOP MOVING TO THE RIGHT

[ldf]

77. true blue to the end???

oh, you mean "go down with the ship" dem.

[radwriter0555]

2. You think a democrat would change over to a new americanazi?

I don't think so.

[Ladyhawk]

4. It was just something that occurred to me to add. :) n/t

[Blue-Jay]

3. If you switch parties, you need to switch message boards.

:rolleyes:

[Ladyhawk]

5. Why? There are a lot of Greens here. They continue to post. n/t

[GreenPartyVoter]

7. Yeh. We're ornery that way. *g*

----------------------------------------------------------------
Election reform can help save this country!
Same day primaries with ranked voting ballots for the Dems, and
THESE reforms for your town, county, and state.
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm

[Ladyhawk]

16. I think Blue-Jay wants you to leave. I don't think that's fair.

I thought this place was for all progressive thinkers. :shrug:

[GreenPartyVoter]

17. Well, I am not here to build up the Green party ranks. But I WILL

complain about Dems in Congress just as much as the Repubs if I don't liek what they are doing.

That's the trouble with the political mindset in this country. We forget that our representatives represent ALL of us, regardless of their political affiliation. It's their job to listen to us, and it is our job to tell them what we think needs to be done.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Election reform can help save this country!
Same day primaries with ranked voting ballots for the Dems, and
THESE reforms for your town, county, and state.
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm

[Ladyhawk]

38. And you have every right to.

The Green Party will become a viable party if enough people join. I'm thinking about it...

[Blue-Jay]

21. You should concentrate more on thinking for yourself

than thinking for me. Also, I'd thank you to address me if you have a problem with what I say and not snipe to someone else. Fair enough? OK.

I don't necessarily want anyone to leave DU. I just think that it's inappropriate to denigrate the Democratic Party and shill for another party on this particular message board. I don't agree with the direct the party has taken in the past 20 years either, but I'm not jumping ship. Please don't turn this into a "leftier-than-thou" type of thread either. (you haven't, but I've seen that happen before in these sorts of discussions)

[Nadienne]

72. But isn't this a message board

for democratic/progressive ideas? And if you disagree with the Democratic party, shouldn't you be able to discuss it here?

[Ladyhawk]

35. Shame on you...now go stand in the corner. ;) n/t

[Blue-Jay]

10. Simple.

The Green Party has its own series of boards, and I'd suggest that Greens post there if they're just going to bitch about the Democratic Party and suggest that we jump ship. DU is not here to promote other political parties and should not be used to do so by the members.

[Taxloss]

51. What about us furrn fighters?

British Labour here.

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. No, but I am already an "outsider"

----------------------------------------------------------------
Election reform can help save this country!
Same day primaries with ranked voting ballots for the Dems, and
THESE reforms for your town, county, and state.
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm

[Ladyhawk]

13. I rest my case, argued above.

I'm thinking of joining the Green Party. I have been thinking about it for quite some time. Three years ago I was a Republican. I changed when I realized the Republicans didn't reflect my views. Now it seems the Dems may not reflect my views. I'm not married to any party, but to the party that truly represents what I feel is right.

I added a choice for third party members, which you can tick if you'd like.

[Obviousman]

8. If anything I'm more excited to be a Dem than I have been before

Dean and Rosenberg are closing in on the DNC chair, Al From and the DLC are on the defensive, Boxer took a couragous stand today, Montana and Colorado are showing signs of hope, and the grassroots and netroots are begining to grow. Now, the national dems just need to hold the lines till midterms.

[Q3JR4]

9. My views would be different if I were,

I don't know, Sen. Boxer's constituent.

[Darranar]

11. Yes. At the core this party represents the elite as much as the...

Republicans do, though admittedly a section slightly more open to compromise with justice.

[Az]

12. Yes but not in the way the question suggests

I am going to fight to change the Democratic party. This is not my party currently. At least not how I would have it. The spines in the leadership of this party can be counted on one hand. Even amongst those individuals there are none that are championing ideas. There is no one consistantly standing up for what we need to fight for. The occaisional act of bravery won't cut it.

We once had politicians that would debate ideas. They would lay the merrit of their arguments before the people and then defend them. We now have dueling talking points and contingents of spin doctors.

[OrwellwasRight]

39. I agree, but "doctors of spin"

are effective given the society we currently have (populated not with stupid people, but with lazy thinkers who are for the most poart too complacent with their material goods to get up in arms about issues that we DUers hold near and dear to our hearts: a reliable and fair voting system, equal justice for all, promotion of the common welfare, etc.).

To get people to want to listen to a real debate of ideas, we would have to have a revolution in education or a truly catastrohpic economic failure (ala the Great Depression), and given that those in power get better every year at the use of spin, I don't see option number one happening in the foreseeable future.

Kerry tried to use reasoned argument, but was dismissed as "cold and impersonable" by the media (I agree he did not do it well, but he tried).

Madison Avenue has been perfecting the art of manipulation for nearly 100 years. Slogans work. So how do we get to where you want to be?

[Az]

40. Alas I agree

But the implication is that the merrit of ideas no longer validates their acceptance by the people. Instead it is moved to the entirely fictitious world of marketting.

[OrwellwasRight]

42. Absolutely ideas ought to be accepted because of their inherent worth

but how do you sell sincerity and genuiness when no one takes the time to figure out the difference between them and Bush-Rove Fantasy Products in a market place filled with political fictions?

I think for the lazy-thinkers it is like trying to spot the real Gucci in a haystack of counterfeits. The counterfeits are all sparkly and good-looking (like the Republican sales pitch) and it would take too long to go through the store to see if there is some other product in there that is actually better, but maybe not on the front display, so they pick the sparkly thing (Rove's story) that seems to give them what they are looking for.

Maybe we can just hope that there will finally start to be a buyer's remorse, when they get the product home and it is not as promised (I saw no evidence of that in Nov, though, so I'm not holding my breath).

[bowens43]

14. There are no viable third parties

[GreenPartyVoter]

19. Not under the current system.. hence the need to change the system

so that if we are unhappy with the dems AND the Repubs offered to represent us, we have a real alternative choice in front of us.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Election reform can help save this country!
Same day primaries with ranked voting ballots for the Dems, and
THESE reforms for your town, county, and state.
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm

[Old and In the Way]

29. We can't be assured that our votes count now......how do you propose

we "change the system"? Not criticizing, but Republicans won't do anything that doesn't benefit them, electorally. It'll be a long wait for "the system to change" as long as the Republicans maintain their majority.

[TwilightZone]

27. Agreed, particularly at the national level.

Until a third party shows that it can win a bunch of electoral votes in a presidential election or pick up a lot of Senate seats, viability will remain elusive.

[Ladyhawk]

36. Joining a third party en masse will make it a viable option. n/t

[moggie12]

15. No way, no how, not ever.

Since I'm 45 and have a few years of experience under my (larger than it used to be) belt, I know that staying and fighting to help my Party is the best course of action. Remember back in '00 when some people got all frustrated with the Democratic candidate, complaining that he wasn't liberal enough?? Remember who won the Presidential election that year? Some think the "evil empire" stole it from us in '00. I think Nader voters handed it to them. I will be stickin'.

[Ladyhawk]

20. Well, my party became a party full of neo-fascists.

Should I have stayed with them? Republicans and Democrats flip-flopped (if you'll excuse the expression) since the Civil War. Would you have stayed with the Republicans during the shift to neo-fascism?

If Democrats don't grow a spine and continue to roll over for the Republicans, you will continue to support them?

Sam Seder just said we saw the stem cell of a backbone today. Is this a sign of life or a sign of too little, too late? I'm not entirely decided either way, but I'm leaning toward switching parties.

[moggie12]

26. I view them as still salvagable

Good point, Ladyhawk. I'm sticking with them because I think they're still salvagable. I want to work inside the Party to restore it's populist soul (in my opinion, the "New" Democrats have gone way overboard supporting the Wall Street mentality). I think we could've won this election by 10 million votes if the Democratic Party had had the guts and smarts to make the populist case to the American people.

[latteromden]

18. I still stand with the Democrats, and I also still stand with the Greens.

Always have. I am actually not registered to vote yet. Whether I'll register as a Democrat or an independent won't have anything to do with this past election. I have both a "Vote Democratic" and a "Green Party" button on my backpack. So, nah, not changing parties.

[trotsky]

22. I will remain active in my STATE Democratic Party.

But I don't think the national one represents me all that well anymore.

[TankLV]

23. I am watching the proceedings closely.

So far, a FEW Democrats made me proud today. There is still hope.

But based on the record of (in)action and rolling over and calls to move further right and abandone core principals, I am not happy.

I will certainly NEVER AGAIN vote for "anybody but ( )" like I did last time - the Democratic Party better fucking well WOO ME and EARN MY VOTE and give me a reason to vote FOR them before I cast my precious vote for them again, that's for sure!

[Jane Austin]

24. I'm not switching - - that would just help further

marginalize the little opposition to Bushco that there is!

[flaminbats]

25. a democrat until I die...

who do the parties represent?

[MrSlayer]

28. I would consider it if there was a viable alternative.

But I don't see one anywhere on the horizon. I believe in the Democratic party's core principles but it seems that the party's leaders no longer do. If half the party bails then the Pukes just get stronger. Die fast or die slow, the ogre's choice is all we have it seems.

[Ladyhawk]

34. Ah, but there won't be a viable alternative until we make it happen.

Grassroots thing, I think.

[JNelson6563]

58. Yes, grassroots

And frankly, with the party machine in place I say we just take that over instead of going off and building one from scratch. That's what I've been doing in my corner of the world and remarkable progres has been made here in just 2 short years. If enough people got active in their local parties, got more progressives on their boards and at District level, the party would be more representative of progressives. It seems so simple yet beyond the grasp of so many.

Julie

[Terror Sell]

56. Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel too

I'll wait and see if the party can find it's own voice again. But if it's going to be republican-lite, they can count me out.

[DemGirl7]

30. I was raised a Democrat and will stay one...

I don't care how crappy and run down the party gets, I will stay one to the very end...no matter what...

[Deja Q]

31. I will follow an assertive, intelligent leader whose ethics and morals are

worthy of having supporting followers.

I will not support or follow incompetents, greedy asswipes, hypocrites, or religious zealots (particularly if they include any of the other aforementioned traits).

Such a leader can be a Dem, Republican, or anyone else.

I know Republicans who I would readily support.

I know Democrats who deserve to rot.

But as the Republicans' goal is increasingly obvious, I find it hard to even give them consideration - and I know people who are genuinely good people except they voted * because * says he has similar ideals to theirs. (the repukes have hijacked Progessive causes before; with Hannity yesterday saying how liberals hate the working class being the most audacious example yet...)

Maybe nobody is worth following? :shrug:

[OrwellwasRight]

41. Kucinich and McDermott are worth following, for starters.

We need to find our own heroes and promote them relentlessly so that the widhy washy Dems see what builds a loyal following.

Any Dem who won because the voters wanted "anyone but a Repub" does not have a loyal follwing and should try to build one. Groups like MoveOn can lead the way.

[Deja Q]

62. Right on!

I always loved Kucinich.

And if our government was truly unbiased, they would have mandated that EVERY candidate get the same amount of free time. We taxpayers pay for the election system, so you bet I'm angry at how the system is skewed.

[OrwellwasRight]

65. Couldn't agree more.

Supreme Court screwed it up when they said money=speech. Campaign finance has been impossible to reform ever since.

I believe Kucinich would have a sizable national following if he could actually get his message out.

Question is, how do we get public financing or even mandated free air time when we can't even get people to pony-up for health care and the fox are guarding the hen house over at the FCC? Even the equal time rule has been blown to smithereens.

BTW, can you give me the names of all the people on your avatar so I can try to match them up? My best guesses include obscure British actors and a character from some cartoon network show?

[Ladyhawk]

33. I'm thinking about switching but would definitely vote for Dems like Boxer

Um, that's all I wanted to say, but there was no room for n/t or even a period.

[FubarFly]

37. Other.

Yes, the Democratic Party no longer effectively represents me, but I am casting my lot towards reforming it. I will not turn my back on the many good Democrats who are still fighting the good fight. So although I have no intention of leaving, make no mistake, my time, energy, and money will not be expended emboldening corporatists.

[w4rma]

43. Forget about this 3rd Party BS and open up a media outlet on TV.

Resources wasted on a "3rd Party" waste not only your time act as a diversion for the rest of us.

[darkism]

69. KICK for that great truth

Third parties won't stand a chance for a LONG time.

The Dems NEED US MORE THAN EVER.

FIX the system first, THEN improve it.

[dethl]

44. Democrats no longer represent me, changed to Green today

I watched the voter objection get shot down by not only Republicans, but Democrats as well. I am still proud there are a few who still care about the people they represent. Still, I cannot be in a party where I feel my voice is drowned out by the DLC and their supporters.

[yurbud]

45. like a divorce with kids

You don't love or sleep with the person, but you work together when you have a common interestes.

So in my kid analogy, the republicans would be Michael Jackson.

[Guaranteed]

46. When Dean creates another party, I will switch to it. nt

[AgadorSparticus]

64. right there with ya, man. i'm a dean fan from the beginning. now

more than ever.

[surfermaw]

47. You Chickens, that is why we are getting the heck beat out of us

Republians stick togeather, they don't cut and run, they would be out hunting and grooming a candidate for the next election..and giving the democrats hell... We won't ever win again with the attitudes of some on this board..you make me sick.

[GreenPartyVoter]

48. So, you don't think people should have options beyond Dem and Repub?

Or that they should ever switch parties once they make a choice?

----------------------------------------------------------------
Election reform can help save this country!
Same day primaries with ranked voting ballots for the Dems, and
THESE reforms for your town, county, and state.
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm

[OrwellwasRight]

50. Is it we who are the chickens or

is it the DNC who are afraid to be real Dems? Some are so scared by the Republican success, that they move their positions right (what is up with supporting an anti-choice candidate for DNC chair? e.g.).

The Repubs "stick together" b/c they did not cpmpromise core beliefs and compromising is what Dems have done for years. For example, why did we compromise on NAFTA instead of holding out for a free trade treaty that actually protected the environment and workers' rights?

It is hard to say we don't stick together when there isn't anything to stick to.

[welshTerrier2]

49. The DNC continues to support the invasion of Iraq

i've struggled with this decision for a very long time ... i hated Kerry's Iraq vote but voted ABB ... and it's not just his Iraq vote ...

both the DNC and Kerry CONTINUE to believe that the "war" in Iraq is winnable ...

i'm rapidly approaching the point that I can no longer, in good conscience, consider myself affiliated with people and parties that hold these views ...

and perhaps third parties will never be viable ... but at least i won't be giving my time and money to another "war" party ...

[mtnsnake]

52. I have a question to all the people planning on leaving the party

Are you going to vote for the candidate of your new party, be it Green or whatever, or are you going to vote Democratic next time?

[welshTerrier2]

53. i'll take a shot at that ...

i may leave the Democratic Party and NOT join another party ... that doesn't mean I won't work for selected candidates or issues but i haven't yet found a suitable alternative party ...

will I vote for a Democrat the next time ???

i will not vote for any fucking candidate that fails to recognize and speak out against the slaughter the U.S. is conducting in Iraq ... so if that's what the Democrats are offering, the answer is "No" ... i cannot believe that the Democratic Party continues to support the "invasion and occupation" of Iraq ...

if they run a more enlightened candidate, the answer is "maybe" ...

[mtnsnake]

57. I appreciate your stance, but the way I look at it

I'm going to vote Democratic no matter what, if it's the only chance there is of beating the Republican candidate.

In actuality, I'm probably more suited to being a Green Party member than a Democrat, but the priority is knocking off the Repuke.

[welshTerrier2]

60. the differences between the parties ...

you know, i very rarely use the term "republican-lite" ... i've always argued that to say there's no difference between the Democratic Party and the Republican Party is absurd ... and in many ways I still believe that ...

but if you toss around the big issues like war, like corporatism and like election fraud, you'll come fact to face with some pretty disturbing things ... the truth is, that on these issues, the two major parties do not seem all too far apart ...

does that mean everyone should leave the Democratic Party ??? you tell me ... all I know is that if I'm honest with myself, I don't see how I can remain a Democrat ... it's not about winning and losing anymore; it's about feeling like I'd have to sell my soul to remain ... surely there are issues (or other parties) where progressives can make a more substantial contribution ...

i don't think i can continue to fight for something i don't believe in ...

on a totally unrelated note:
btw mtnSnake, ever hear of Balfour Lake ?? I used to spend a lot of time around there ... i think it's on route 28N ...

[mtnsnake]

61. Balfour Lake is an area

that I hadn't heard of, but I've been along the entire length of Rt 28N many times on my way through the Adirondacks. I looked it up and I see it's located in Minerva. One of my favorite toys is my ultralight one-man canoe made in Minerva by Peter Hornbeck. Ever hear of him or his "Lost Pond Boats" he's famous for?

Even though I'm not familiar with Balfour Lake in particular, that whole trip along Rt 28N is a beautiful ride. Primitive, rugged area. :)

[welshTerrier2]

66. nope, haven't heard of him ...

i'm a kayaker not a canoist ... canoer ??

spent lots of time around the Lake George area as well ... and I've kayaked across Lake Champlain from Vermont a bunch of times ...

i love the Adirondacks ... btw, there's a little monument just past Balfour Lake that marks the location where Teddy Roosevelt was hunting when McKinley got shot ... well, at least there used to be ...

[mtnsnake]

73. I'm not a kayaker like you, but with the Hornbeck canoes

you paddle them with a kayak paddle. My boat is made of kevlar, is very stable, and only weighs 16 pounds. Kayaking like you do is really cool. I can't believe I never got into that in as many years as I've enjoyed the outdoors, but there just isn't time for everything. You good at those Eskimo rolls?

Yeah, I LOVE the Adirondacks, too; they're my passion. I'm always grateful for the fact that the Adks are a State Park and not a federal park, which could subject them to future Bush-like atrocities such as logging and/or improper development if they were. BTW, do you ever hike any of the mountains in the Adirondacks? That's mostly what we do in our spare time.

[librechik]

68. yeah, what you said! n/t

[sundog]

55. no, not yet

[goodhue]

59. No Way

Dennis brought me back into the party and here I will stay.

[eridani]

67. Same here

However, the local situation in WA state is highly relevant. The Dems in my particular locality are pretty progressive, and there are new alliances forming between PDA/DFA Dems, Greens and various independents to do issue work. Not only that, our Governor-elect (whom I had not supported in the primaries because she decided to go for image over substance) actually turned out to have a real set of ovaries, and demanded a manual recount of the paper ballots that we still have in all but 2 counties. The result was that she won, but she was willing to risk losing and did the right thing anyway.

I'd consider going back to Green, but the Greens don't have any PCOs. I think that what progressives should do depends on where they live. YMMV

[Taverner]

63. Why? Doesn't really matter anyway

We could join the Dems, Repubs, Greens, Blues or Plaid party and it STILL would not make a difference.

Parties only work when there is Democracy.

[bobweaver]

70. I didn't leave the Democrats, they left me!

[moderate_hero]

75. here here!

I voted for Nader this last time because I was tired of the Dems saying one thing and doing another. How can I believe that the Democrats agree with animal rights when I see its presidential candidate has just shot and killed a goose (that was just one for me).

[One Eye on Canada]

78. Well put

The Democratic Party of my understanding would not contemplate back-peddling on basic human/citizens rights (like the right to privacy for women and their reproductive health or the right to equal treatment under the law for all Americans, including queers like me). If there were a viable alternative, a party that truly represents all Americans (and no, I don't think the Greens qualify--to say Mr. Nader was a disappointment on the glbt front is an understatement), I would change parties in a heartbeat.

I will continue to pester my representatives in the hopes they'll do the right thing (happily, in my part of Mass., they don't need much pestering), write to the powers that be in the Democratic Party, and hope truth, justice and the American way will prevail. Someday. Before I die. Please.

But I'm not holding my breath.

[RadicalMom]

71. We don't need to divorce them, we just need counselling. nt

[sundog]

74. lol - good way of putting it

The key to any good relationship is communication.

Communication from our leaders is what is sadly lacking at this juncture. in a sense, we've been left in the cold & second guessing everything.

But no, I'm not leaving the party.

[mandyky]

76. Yes, I am CONSIDERING it

Whether I will or not is up in the air. A lot depends on who is chosen for DNC Chair, and how Democrats behave after the inauguration. If Reid and Pelosi continue rolling over and sucking up, how can I stay.

I suggest we all join the CBC, NAACP, and DFA if we plan on staying and want progressive and liberal issues addressed. I do not want to leave the party, but I may have no choice.

[poe]

79. decent folk

startin' up the decent folk party. we're closely allied with the anti-movement movement in our quest for an ism-less existence. see ya in d.c. on the 20th.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

80. Registering Green to oppose the one party system.

Although I live in WA, have 1 good senator and a good rep, (both voted against the war), who I will vote for, the national Democratic Party has become nothing but a token opposition that does little but to perpetuate the illusion of a democracy that is really an oligarchy of capitalists.

The national Democratic Party is neither willing to, or capable of, reforming itself. It is far too beholden to the rich and powerful to do much of anything but whimper and bleat on command.