So, when they steal the next election, and the next, and the next...

[benburch]

at what point do we rise up and take back Democracy by force?

I'm asking a serious question here; When is enough enough?

If we know in advance that nothing we do will get a fair election, and we also know in advance that no majority we could take to the polls will ever be able to overcome the fraud, how many elections have to go by before we owe no more debt of allegiance to the government that is in power?

[flordehinojos]

1. why did 43 democratic senators fold yesterday on the challenge to the OHIO

VOTE and only ONE SENATOR, BARBARA BOXER, stood up?

WHAT in the name of HEAVEN are they so afraif of?

[Unforgiven]

2. They don't

like anthrax in their mail? I dunno just a guess?

[BikeWriter]

5. She was the only one with cojones! n/t

[Born Free]

16. they are chronic abusers

The democratic rank and file are like victims living in abuse, each and every time the elected leaders abuse us by refusing to represent us and America they say they will stand up for us next time. Just as abuse victims are afraid and feel too guilty to leave or tell, the democrats continue to buy into the promises that things will change, even though we all know the DLC will continue to abuse us. Eventually we too, will get enough courage to stand up and turn our backs on the DLC and the current democratic party to form a party of people that are willing to stand up for America. The reason the elected democratic leaders are political wimps is because the rank and file are wimps, when the rank and file says they had enough, we will get stronger leaders - it's up to you and me to stop supporting a party that promote political abuse.

[eleny]

3. It's going to take the draft

[BikeWriter]

6. The draft will help, yes, when they have to stop the stop/loss program...

because they've broken the or killed the troops they've used it on.

[eleny]

7. It'll be a horror show

Unlike the '60s when most guys were out in the streets with their peer protesting the draft - this time, parents will stand with their kids. They just won't give their kids over to these sadistic monsters. And that's what I believe it'll take to bring us all together to fight for our country. The threat of the death of the kids involuntarily taken in a draft.

[BikeWriter]

12. It's already a horror show. I saw VietNam up close and personal...

This time bushco is effin' with an entirely different thing. It's our fundies against their fundies and we have to circumvent it!

[BikeWriter]

4. We have to get their attention!

...and that means getting radical!

[Selatius]

8. History as a reference

It took decades of trying before people, at least more progressive-minded folks, realized that they could no longer do business with King George. I don't see how it will be any faster than it was back then. Communications technology has changed, and it is faster, but people still take the same amount of time to think things over as it was two centuries ago.

In short, it's going to be years, if not decades before people have reached the point where they are collectively fed up with the government. (We're assuming for the sake of argument here that present trends continue unchanged, of course) It'll take a great amount of suffering and pain to get the thing rolling, and many would choose to suffer in silence than stand up, speak out, and reap the whirlwind.

Many have families. Even if it did come down to the choice of actually rebelling against the central government, many would probably be dragged into the fight reluctantly because wars fought in your own backyard are wars your family will directly suffer from, and many will die including the women and children. That's only the nature of war. The cost could be greater than you could bear. That's what you mean when you speak of rebellion.

Violence should be the absolute last resort. We have not yet reached the point where violence is the only option left on the list of remedies. We still have some other remedies left. We don't even have a real movement. We can argue over that point, but I don't think anyone here would say that it is as powered and animated and broadbased as the movements seen during the 1960s. Now those were bona fide mass opposition movements.

The people apparently are not to the point of wanting to protest. Have they shut down many cities and many college campuses across America in mass protest? No? Then this kind of talk of rebellion serves no good. They have not collectively suffered enough pain to be motivated to act collectively together. If cities and colleges are shut down and the government still refuses to listen, then we could seriously examine the next decision and hope to God it was the right one.

[benburch]

9. Force does not necessarily involve violence.

The fall of the USSR was a show of force, but it did not involve major violence.

The end of British rule in India, likewise.

An effective General Strike is force.

Peaceful occupation of the Capitol is force.

[Selatius]

10. I see no point of disagreement

As I said, violence should be the absolute last resort, and other remedies should be tried before violence is the only option left. However, his use of the term "force" was vague, so I felt I had to delineate on the point. Personally, I think it's going to take years before a mass opposition movement emerges that could shut down several cities and many colleges across America in mass protest. We're simply not to that point, I don't think. He asked how much is America collectively going to take? And I fear it will endure much before it speaks out en masse. It's more difficult to speak out than to remain silent.

[okieinpain]

11. they stop stealing it, when we take back the party. or start a new

one.

[Nadienne]

13. I know so many people

who don't really see how politics affects their lives. They are too distracted by sitcoms, sports, the latest gossip... the microcosms of their daily lives. What do they care if the election was stolen? They would care the if the government required more of them than taxes and votes.

[Hephaistos]

14. You don't draw lines in the sand

when you can't defend them and back up the smack.

I disagree with this statement:
no majority we could take to the polls will ever be able to overcome the fraud

Their aim is to keep the count close, so they can work their Blackwell Magic.

There is no alternative than to go an build a party that can win a fraud-proof majority. We can do that by taking back part of the media, or building new outlets, and by creating a big tent, not by "taking back Democracy by force", whatever that means. That path only plays into their hands, by ensuring that a sufficient portion of the electorate will forever keep their distance from the 'violent radicals'.

[benburch]

17. How I justify that.

After this "election" they have the ability to push their agenda through without challenge. If we had, say, a 10% electoral majority, and they knew it, they would create 12% fraud, and make it look like a close election.

All it takes is restricting the polling in a few more places and a bit more purging of the voter rolls.

We can protest and scream all we want and it won't matter. They don't need us to get "elected" and they don't give a damn what we think about it.

Bottom line; That wasn't an election just then. The next one won't be an election, either. To call it an election is to do the very idea of an election a disservice!

[Hephaistos]

15. You don't draw lines in the sand

when you can't defend them and back up the smack.

I disagree with this statement:
no majority we could take to the polls will ever be able to overcome the fraud

Their aim is to keep the count close, so they can work their Blackwell Magic.

There is no alternative than to go and build a party that can win a fraud-proof majority. We can do that by taking back part of the media, or building new outlets, and by creating a big tent, not by "taking back Democracy by force", whatever that means. That path only plays into their hands, by ensuring that a sufficient portion of the electorate will forever keep their distance from the 'violent radicals'.