US troops 'laughed as Iraqi died'

[alexisfree]

US troops 'laughed as Iraqi died'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4150429.stm
BBC | January 6, 2005

An Iraqi civilian has testified that US soldiers forced him and his cousin to jump into the River Tigris and laughed as his relative was swept to his death.

"He was calling my name, said: 'Help me! Help me!'" Marwan Fadel Hassoun told a military trial in Texas.

Army Sgt Tracy Perkins, 33, is on trial for an array of charges including involuntary manslaughter.

Three other soldiers have also been charged over the incident in the city of Samarra on 3 January 2004.

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT

[stopbush]

1. Explain to me how our troops are any better than the Nazis?

Disgusting...and the red state ghouls eat this shit up as an example of 'Murk-ahs kick-ass strength.

[Selatius]

10. Careful to avoid overgeneralizations

Not every soldier in Iraq is a war criminal. The ones we have problems with are those who willfully commit wrongs and know it is wrong. Those are the guys that need to be singled out from the rest of them. Demonizing all soldiers as baby killers and murderers is a mistake.

[oc2002]

21. they did not start out being Natzi's like atitude, but are slowly getting

..becoming like that.

Its happened before in Nam, when they just dont give a shit, and everyone is becoming the enemy.

Bush is making them into war criminals.

The American public is just ignoring it.

[cclevel]

23. Give me a beak!!

I can not believe what I am reading! I am retired Navy. I have served 20 years in the Submarine community and have had a variety of friends from both the Army and Marines. This type of generalization of our men and women serving is outrageous and absolutely slanderous! Come on people, there are Liberals, Dems, Reps, and Independents who serve. These people have taken time out of their lives to allow us the freedom to speak our mind and we want to compare them to Nazis? Is this how you view those who willing lay serve and are asked to make the ultimate sacrifices? Do you have anyone you know who is currently serving? Do they talk like Nazis? To slander them while they are over in the Asian waters providing humanitarian aid to people who can not be reached by any means other than helo. This does not sound like something Nazis would do.

[Goathead]

34. I don't remember ever being asked

If I want my freedom defended. I'll defend my own freedom thank you very much, when it is in jeopardy.

[alexisfree]

36. to To Cleval

You have been Brain Washed very good my conservative friend. Now its time to open your eyes to the truth. The truth hurts

[Malva Zebrina]

39. Excuse me, but the freedom to speak our mind?

Sir, we would have that freedom without the military killing and laughing and draping rosaries over their tank barrels before they advance into a FAllujah and destroy it and all the civilians therin.

Sir, there is NO ONE in the entire world, that can threaten the freedoms of the citizens of the United STates, unless you consider George Bush, who views those who would exercise their freedoms, as his personal enemy.

There is NO cult of the military but that which they assigne to themselves, and they are NOT all heroes and they are NOT all brave warriors. OK?

Someone is pulling the trigger, dropping the bombs, obeying the orders and doing the killing, OK?

And it is NOT to defend our "freedoms"

That good old boy, romanticizing of the US military has got to stop. IT serves NO GOOD purpose in these times.

It is not romantic any more.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Deja Q]

24. Not just ignoring it. They truly feel * is making them safer.

Oops.

[Fitz_G]

30. I suppose I am a former "Nazi"

Among Certain professions and circles within the military, there is absolutely an end-justifies-the-means mentality. I had it when I served as an infantryman in Sarajevo at the end of that war (I suppose you've already forgotten that we "Nazi soldiers" ended THAT holocaust too.) Had the situation been bad enough, I don't know what I would have done. I just know that it wouldn't have bothered me at the time. I am not proud of feeling that way and it definitely caused problems later in life, but I understand it now.

In case you didn't know, it is quite common for emotions and empathy to shut down in such environments. Its a survival mechanism. Anyone who has had their heart truly broken knows how disabling emotions can be. They can paralyze. Not good in such places. Emotion and remorse do exist in soldiers during war, but mostly in quiet moments of safety and reflection, or in a sudden release after something traumatic.

Not to mention fatigue. Do an experiment with yourself. Stay up for 2-3 days, remain physically active, and starve yourself. At the end, when all you want is sleep, see how empathetic and understanding you are. At that moment, are you a Nazi? Now throw threat into the mix. Let me know how it comes out.


What bothers me about people like you, is that you fail to see such soldiers as products of their environment. You fall into the right-wing trap--blaming the individual. Why are we (the left) so quick to understand and forgive inmates for a similar outlook or behavior, but soldiers are classified Nazi? Is it because they wear a uniform? Look the same? Part of a system meant to serve the public? Or could it be that our system and leadership have treated them no differently than gutter-born prostitutes? Could it be that soldiers develop a similar outlook on life as that of a prostitute?

FYI, it is because war does this to people that we oppose it unless it is utterly necessary. Remember? Just so you know, sweeping judgments and generalizations such as the one you have made are exactly what the Nazis did, exactly what happened in the Balkans, and exactly what Republicans do.

[manic expression]

38. Laughing as someone dies is NOT

end-justifying-means mentality. It is sadism, period.

Torture, sadistic killings, shooting at unarmed demonstrators, firing on civilians, detaining clearly innocent people and the endless list of many other disgusting acts of the US Military is NOT and NEVER WILL BE excusable! I know that soldiers face great trauma and fatigue during wartime (especially during an occupation and guerrilla war), but nothing can rationalize or lessen the wrongs that have been and that are being committed by US soldiers.

I would not call them Nazis at all (although I understand why people do), but the soldiers in Iraq are complacent in criminal action. They are part of a military which has committed horrible atrocity after horrible atrocity. I will NEVER support ANY part this base war, and that (unfortunately) includes the soldiers who fight it.

[TheKingfish]

41. Id laugh my ass off

If they pushed tracy off a bridge for punishment. An eye for eye, ya know? Might wipe that shit eating grin off of his face. Prostitutes????? lol nice stretch.

[Goathead]

33. You are so wrong.

What are we supposed to do coddle them as they illegally occupy another country? I am fucking sick of this shit! I will not support one single American troop that is in Iraq. I don't condone murder and as far as I am concerned the "good ones" should be charged as co-conspirators. Why don't the "good ones" as you say just put down their arms and refuse to fight?

[OneBlueSky]

2. winning the hearts and minds . . .

and helping the insurgency grow in leaps and bounds . . .

another well-thought-out policy brought to you by BushCo -- where insanity and dogma trump reality every time! . . .

[okieinpain]

3. a while back I made a statement that article this proves wrong.

I said that american soldiers enjoyed killing, I was wrong they enjoy torturing, killing is just a side effect of the torturing.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dangerman]

4. And we support our troops for THIS?

[Megawatt]

5. Lots of broad brushing going on here:

And I support teachers for this?:

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/4055460/detail.html

Teacher Accused Of Having Sex With Students Appears In Court
Woman Faces Multiple Counts Of Lewd Acts With Children

POSTED: 10:23 am PST January 6, 2005
UPDATED: 4:29 pm PST January 6, 2005

ORANGE, Calif. -- An Orange middle school teacher accused of having sexual contact with two 13-year-old boys who were former students was arraigned Thursday.

Sarah Suzanne Bench-Salorio, 28, of Orange, was charged with 20 counts of lewd acts on a child under 14 years old. The suspect, who taught for two years at Santiago Charter Middle School, was arrested Tuesday, a day after one of the boys told his parents about the alleged contact with his former teacher, Sgt. Dave Hill said.

Bench-Salorio, who taught reading and English, was booked Wednesday at the Orange County Jail, with bond set at $1 million, a jail clerk said.
_________________________________________________________

Or maybe I'm sophisticated enough to realize the misguided illegal actions of an individual don't define an entire profession

[MrSlayer]

6. Not all warriors have honor.

It's a sad fact that you will find a number of sadistic people in the armed forces. There are people who join to honorably serve their country, there are people who sign up for the college money and there are people who join because they want to kill people. Normally this is where you want such types but they can and obviously will take things too far. This is just another horror in the midst of millions.

[leftchick]

7. Has this made the American Press??

??

[ElectroPrincess]

8. Nope, they're too busy picking on Ashley Simpson coz it causes no backlash

from the republican noise machine.

[Guaranteed]

9. I'm hoping this is a very, very isolated incident.

I get the feeling that it's not, though.

[peacebird]

16. i - for one - feel hopeful

i remember when this story made the press initially (a LONG time back). I also remember thinking it was shocking that no charges were brought, and i assumed it had been covered up like so many other stories.

the fact that this has made it to trial is a good sign. don't you think? this isn't the prison scandals, where low level grunts, most likely obeying orders or at least doing what was tacitally expected of them, and then were made into the fall guys to protect the truly guilty higher officers.

in this case it was troops who for whatever reason (perhaps as simple as a moment of utter stupidity, maybe they saw it as a prank or had too much testosterone in a war zone) behaved as ogres, probably never thinking of the fact one or both men could die - but death occured and now the military is doing the right thing. They are on trial.

this is good, isn't it?

edit: i am not belittling the crime here, by the way - it was horrible.

[JohnyCanuck]

29. Iraqis appear to believe that

there are more than a few ogres wearing US military uniforms in their country.

From un-embedded US journalist Dahr Jamail

Iraq: The Devastation
By Dahr Jamail

<snip>

Last May, at the General Hospital of Fallujah, doctors spoke to me of the sorts of atrocities that occurred during the first month-long siege of the city. Dr. Abdul Jabbar, an orthopedic surgeon, said that it was difficult to keep track of the number of people they treated, as well as the number of dead, due to the lack of documentation. This was caused primarily by the fact that the main hospital, located on the opposite side of the Euphrates River from the city, was sealed off by the Marines for the majority of April, just as it would again be in November, 2004.

He estimated that at least 700 people were killed in Fallujah during that April. "I worked at five of the centers myself, and if we collect the numbers from these places, then this is the number," he said. "And you must keep in mind that many people were buried before reaching our centers."

When the wind blew in from the nearby Julan quarter of the city, the putrid stench of decaying bodies (a smell evidently once again typical of the city) only confirmed his statement. Even then, Dr. Jabbar was insisting that American planes had dropped cluster bombs on the city. "Many people were injured and killed by cluster bombs. Of course they used cluster bombs. We heard them as well as treated people who had been hit by them!"

Dr. Rashid, another orthopedic surgeon, said, "Not less than sixty percent of the dead were women and children. You can go see the graves for yourself." I had already visited the Martyr Cemetery and had indeed observed the numerous tiny graves that had clearly been dug for children. He agreed with Dr. Jabbar about the use of cluster bombs, and added, "I saw the cluster bombs with my own eyes. We don't need any evidence. Most of these bombs fell on those we then treated."


www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?emx=x&pid=2109

[EstimatedProphet]

11. The problem isn't the soldiers

The problem is the leadership of the soldiers.
We can expect this kind of thing when we invade a country for no reason, make up laughable excuses about why invading is necessary that are disproved within minutes, and generally carry an attitude that the people we are invading are subhuman.

[CWebster]

12. Support the Troops!

and the patriotic yellow ribbons plastered all over the SUVs.


SUVs....so the auto industry could reap in enormous profits in cahoots with the oil companies and produce gas guzzlers, exempt from EPA restrictions - through a convenient loophole, so everyone on the block had to have one. Who cares about global warming and pollution and drastic weather changes?

Support the troops! They fight for the oil that fuels the SUVs!

Support the troops is just a PR ploy to, by extention, support the cause. War brutalizes human beings by it's very nature. Yeah, support the troops.

[paulie5]

13. Support the troops

But just the same. We have a lot of gun toting thugs in our military. that's what they're trained to be. But still a criminal is just that. And has no business serving in our uniforms.

P5

[CWebster]

14. Who has business serving in our uniform in Iraq? nt

[infusionman]

15. Just because...

These Iraq's said they weren't doing anything illegal (Driving Plumbing Supply's?-Pipes can be used to make bombs) doesn't mean they weren't up to something. It doesn't justify someone dying over it, they should have been taken into custody.

Maybe the soldiers were laughing as a coping mechanism. If you were exposed to what these guys are exposed to, your behavior would be a little bizarre too.

I say SUPPORT THE TROOPS!

[CWebster]

17. Keep in mind

that good Germans supported their troops too.

What are we supporting they do?

[infusionman]

18. It is not their fault...

The troops are there. It is the result of King George they are there.

I believe the majority are trying to make the best they can of the situation. It's too bad a couple of bad apples spoil the whole barrel.

My son graduates from high school this year. I am concerned the draft will be in place and he will have to go. If he does, do you think I would speak ill of him? No, I would support him to the best of my ability.

Please don't forget that the soldiers over there now have families and parents too. They deserve our support.

It is not right that all soldiers be labeled as warmongers. The majority of them I bet do not even want to be there.

Put their boots on and go over there yourself. See how you like it.

[CWebster]

25. You are missing the point

The entire "support the troops" campaign is a PR pitch to legitimize the Invasion and excuse the inevitable brutality that so many kids are expected to participate in, in the name of...what? God and Country? No, a damn lie. And they come home broken and twisted if they aren't coming home in a box.

These kids, often the poorest and most susceptible to the guts and glory nationalism post 911 or just searching for a foot in the door, or an education, are expected to pay the ultimate price because no one back home is willing to expose the lie. Instead we have John Kerry, acting out as soldier boy, "reporting for duty", and no discussion of the war allowed at the Democratic convention, unless Kerry insists that it was all in the execution that made the iraq invasion a failure.

That made Kerry electable--not confronting reality? That makes him a leader? That "supports the troops", by not supporting the truth, by maintaining the illusion by sheer participation in the image as soldier as hero? That makes it worse and to think he tries to distance himself from his history of bringing it into the national consciousness after Viet Nam makes him doubly reprehensible.

I watched my sister-in law elicit sympathy over the holidays because her son was being shipped back to Iraq. Her son, that has become distant and reclusive, and won't even visit his Mother when she flies him home. Still, she keeps a framed photo of him on her TV, the frame reads "My Marine".

So she worries about him, and gets he sympathy she craves, meanwhile she brags that he is a marine, a marine who may die for a lie. Is it any wonder that he doesn't want to see her?

[Poll_Blind]

19. Oh I support the troops- just not THOSE troops, as you are.

Infusionman,

To the best of my knowledge, the troops aren't claiming that the Iraqis were doing anything illegal. Why are you? Why? Are you privy to some information that could be used in the defense of Sgt Perkins et al.?

"Maybe the soldiers were laughing as a coping mechanism." That's fine. One copes when something happens to themselves. Are you saying that the soldiers were coping with their own murderous behavior by laughing at it? The Iraqis in question weren't doing squat except trying to get their van started. I would call your statement circuitous logic if I could prove it contained logic of any sort.

PB

[infusionman]

20. I support the troops ...

I do not support those who are acting out criminally. Their behavior is what is getting them into trouble. If they did a crime, they need to do the time.

What I am getting at is your bunching all troops into the same category as you did in a previous post. Again, the majority of soldiers over there are of course law abiding, order following people. There are some however that take their situation to advantage to act out their sick fantasies. There are others who are stressed out to the max and in a stressful situation do things that they normally would not do.

Remember the soldier who thought the Iraqi was faking being dead and he shot him? Well he had to act in a split second and did what I would have done. Protect myself and my Buddy's. That man is innocent and is the product of the media sensationalizing the situation.

The charges against them are manslaughter, not murder. There is a difference. And they should pay for it if convicted.

There is really no excuse for what they did, but in their situation again, can bring out rather bizarre behavior.

[Poll_Blind]

22. Infusionman- you refer to a post of mine which I never made. At all.

"What I am getting at is your bunching all troops into the same category as you did in a previous post."

You are making this up. Please provide a link.

PB

[NickB79]

35. Pipes can be used to make bombs

Yes, along with about 100 other items I could find around my house within the next hour of searching. Your point? I would think that a country that has been bombed for almost 2 yrs would be in need of some piping to deliver clean water.

[jswordy]

32. SUPPORT OUR TROOPS -- Send YOUR Kid to Iraq!

This one was my idea, Progressive did them up, I have it on my bumper and make nothing from sales of it!

If you feel strongly about the issue, buy one...they are cheap...and slap it on!

[gratuitous]

27. Hmmmm, similarities, similarities

There's a terrific anti-war song, "If I Had A Rocket Launcher." It was written, so I've heard after its writer was in Central America. He saw desperate people fleeing from thugs dressed up as government soldiers. They swam a large river with bullets hitting the water all around them. Some of them made it to the safety of the far shore, but others didn't.

One of the escapees went under the water and in the quiet of waiting to see if the head would resurface, one of the demons in human form firing at this person was heard to laugh.

"When I talk with the survivors
Of things too sickening to relate,
If I had a rocket launcher
I would not hesitate."

Thank God there's another way.

[Moderator]

28. alexisfree

Per DU copyright rules
please post only four
paragraphs from the
copyrighted news source.


Thank you.

DU Moderator

[Dhalgren]

31. It isn't a question anymore of "who is guilty".

We are all guilty. 100,000 or more civilians have been murdered (that is the right word) by US troops in Iraq. Every US citizen who is still here, still paying taxes and not in jail charged with insurection is guilty of those murders. Support the troops? I don't even support the government that sent them to slaughter innocent people for no damned reason. You can argue yourself blue in the face and it will be pointless; until we withdraw from Iraq and begin paying reparations for our crimes, we will be criminals.

[alexisfree]

37. Troops have a choice they can go kill or they can stay and fight!!

Troops have a choice! Remember America the Land of the Free