I'm Not A Michael Moore Democrat

[cali]

He's a talented film maker, though I thought both Roger and me, and Bowling for Columbkine, were far better films than F 9/11.
The Fog of War was a far better anti-Iraqi war movie than F9/11, and Iraq wasn't mentioned once.

Michael Moore's way too cutsie for me. Didn't care for the part in the move where he was approaching congress critters or driving around in the ice cream truck reading the patriot act. Really didn't care for the condescending letter he wrote Senators urging them to stand, particularly in the light of his repeatedly stating that bush won.

Don't get me wrong, as a film maker and activist, he's worthy of some admiration, but I really don't get elevating him to some iconic figure. I don't care if he's associated with the party or not.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. I agree.

And he's not really a Democrat anyway.

[Nomad559]

16. And he's not really a Democrat anyway.

Michael Moore Is an Independent.

:)

[NYCGirl]

19. He's a registered Democrat:

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

23. That's funny. He's always said he's an independent.

[Nomad559]

32. Yes

Michael Moore stated on "Real Time With Bill Maher" that he was an Independent.

[K-W]

61. I am an independent who is registered as a democrat.

I like to be able to vote in primaries.

Moore has become a Democrat publically and has explained why. Its no secret and there is nothing inconsistant or shady about it.

[Nomad559]

31. He's a registered Democrat

I am registered as a Democrat also, but I have always Identified myself as a liberal Independent.

[Liberal In Texas]

83. Date of registration is 1992

A person can change thier registraton in that time.

I for one think we need more Michael Moores.

[question everything]

92. Where did you get that from?

Scary to think that these kind of documents are available for anyone who wants them

[cyclezealot]

93. I am a Michael Moore Democrat.

Moore is what is needed to keep the Democratic party worth belonging too...I hope Moore has the stamina to wade through all the flotsom in the party so as to NOT give up....
Look at all our problems...Not that I didn't vote for Gore . I did and disagree with Moore on that one..
But look what Clinton brought us...In his sell outs...The Communications act of 1996 which gave Fox news what it needed to concentrate its' power in the communications market...Nafta...All our jobs going south as we all knew it would...
Yes, Clinton is far better than Bush and I did not vote for Nader in 1996, but I can understand those fed up with Nafta and giving away TV franchise's to the enemies of democracy..
The crux of the Democrat's problems today...Fox News and their collaborators...Michael please have patience with our parties suicidal tendencies..
.Progress would have been for Clinton to have re-imposed the "Fairness Doctrine" in 1992 when we had our last Democratic Congress and Democrats running the Executive branch.How short minded we are...

[cyclezealot]

94. Anyone seen Rep. Waters thanks to Michael Moore.

TOday's Moore web site mentioned how blown away Michael is by Maxine Waters thanks to Michael Moore's actons in the Movie 911 for mentioning the Black Caucus actions over Florida in the 2000 Electoral College count in Congress January 2001...
Without Moore Yesterday with Sen. Boxer would not have happened...Moore a real Democrat...Defending Democracy..Kerry did not have what it takes when he was the receipent of being screwed by Ohio Republicans.

[itzamirakul]

2. Just for the record...

I think that being "a Michael Moore Democrat" means that one is willing to stand up to the opposition and their lies instead of cowering in a corner, voting WITH them and vainly hopeing that they will play fair.

I think it means sticking it to the opposition the same way they stick it to us.

It is with THAT definition in mind that I don't mind associating myself with MMDs

[iconoclastNYC]

52. Exactly

I refuse to be a 'battered wife democrat' any longer.

[FloridaPat]

3. Unfortunately, he has more backbone then most of the Democrats

combined. There are very few people around who will say how horrible the repubs are. And if people have to drive around in ice cream trucks to make the point, that's OK with me.

[question everything]

4. But he had sobering thoughts yesterday on the Today Show

at least, on the second hour (missed the first one)

He confirmed what many of us have been feeling: that the voters want a President with whom they can connect on a visceral level. This is the frustration that we felt with Kerry. That he is so smart and intelligent and articulate yet... his ideas went just above most voters, while frat boy Bush was "amiable."

That the voters go after "stars" - our Kennedy and Clinton, their Reagan and Arnold S.

I have posted something like that under the term "Opraization" of the candidate and he did mention Oprah's name. Really as an example.

While Reagan has had some ideas of his own, Bush never had, but both were selected by the "porers that be" as pretty faces who would just do and say as told. Both retired early to sleep.

So MM did get my attention when he said that we need to have our own Arnold to run.

And he did trash Evan Bayh.

[RaleighNCDUer]

50. That's one reason why DK never went anywhere.

Great ideas, smart as a whip, but about as sexy as a radish. Great VP material, but he could never lead a ticket.

Of course, he was my first choice.

[American Tragedy]

89. Well, I guess I'm just weird, then.

I found John Kerry to be a far more appealing personality than George Bush. Bush has always come across to me as arrogant, slow-witted, and willfully ignorant. That hits me on a visceral level. It reminds me of everybody I hated in high school.

As I've said before, I would vote for a total asshole if I thought he or she was best for the job. It's not like I have to sleep with the candidate. However, I liked Kerry far better on both a personal and professional level.

[CWebster]

5. How silly.nt

[Bridget Burke]

6. Not a big surprise.

I don't elevate him to an "iconic" figure, either, but I'm glad he's on our side.

And the venom shown by his attackers makes me think he's very valuable.

[tridim]

7. Anyone the Repukes hate as much as they do M.Moore

is worthy of my respect. He's a lightning rod for demonstrating Republican insanity. They say, "Moore is a liar, but I can't give you an example. Just trust me on it." They cyclical hypocrisy of a statement like that says so much about the Republican mindset. I think it's good for the public to see that.

[raggedcompany]

8. Hey, good for you! n/t

[bobbobbins]

9. I like his message, but hes a bit too pompous and greedy for me

[K-W]

13. People who choose the career documentary film maker arent greedy.

As far as pompous, only ideologically. And frankly, he is right most of the time, so what is the problem?

On a personal level he certainly isnt pompous.

[bobbobbins]

29. people who release a slew of pointless books right before an election are.

[K-W]

34. That is rediculous.

The fact that you dont like his books does not make them pointless.

Grow up. His books have the same point as any books, they contain words saying certain things. If people want to read those words they buy the books.

And judging from his sales, his books had more of a point than most.

Take your rediculous Michael Moore bashing to someplace it will be appreciated. He didnt steal any money. If people didnt want to read his books or watch his film he wouldnt make a dime.

[bobbobbins]

35. He didn't steal it...he just capitalized on his fanbase

hes preaching to the choir...no one who was on the fence was going to buy the 9-11 companion, or letters he got from troops...its just his way to make a quick buck before the election, which could have potentially cut down his profits

[Misunderestimator]

41. Bullshit... there were plenty of fencesitters who were swayed by his

film and books. Go ahead and assume that his main motive is greed. In fact, let's just go ahead and assume that about any successful person. And the fact that someone makes good money completely nullifies their ability to generate any change for good in the world. Right.

[bobbobbins]

42. Thanks for putting words into my mouth

I'm not faulting him for trying to make a living doing what hes doing, im faulting him for oversaturating the market right before the election in what was nothing more than a blatant money grab.

[Misunderestimator]

43. It wasn't only him over-saturating the market...

The TV market was completely oversaturated by the Bush campaign (and painfully so here in Florida). If anything, Moore helped to nearly level the playing field. I don't understand why you can't consider that he did this when he did it for better reasons than plain greed.

[bobbobbins]

44. I don't understand why you can't consider it might be plain greed

n/t

[Misunderestimator]

45. Because I am judging him on what I know and what I see...

not what I suspect with no evidence. And I tend to give a benefit of the doubt to people who are doing good for all of us.

[bobbobbins]

46. I gave him the benefit of the doubt...

you can't honestly tell me that a companion reader to f9-11 is going to be bought by anyone who hasn't already seen 9-11 and who doesn't agree with it. Fish meet Barrel

[Misunderestimator]

48. You've already decided that Moore is greedy

and that that is his primary motivation. We disagree.

[bobbobbins]

51. i guess so

although he already announced a sequel to f-911...seems kinda pointless since this is bush's last term anyway, and people who didn't see the first aren't gonna go see the second...i wonder what other motive he could possibly have...hmmm....

[Misunderestimator]

53. Um... the motive could be that not just BUSH but the entire RW

is behind everything and that we need a complete change in government, and Michael Moore is going to bring more truth to the average complacent American? Nah... that couldn't be it.

[bobbobbins]

57. nah, cuz the average complacent american who didn't see the first...

won't see the second.

[K-W]

59. Im glad we have a psychic on the forum.

My guess is that the longer the Bush adminstration is in power, the more people who will be receptive to hearing Moore's message.

The fact of the matter is more people watched F9-11 than go to the places where that info was available before. Your entire argument is just false. He did reach alot of new people, he will reach alot of people again if he does it again.

[bobbobbins]

66. It doesn't take a psychic to follow movie trends

sequels generally do worse than originals, especially a movie as polarized as f9-11, the only people going to it will be people who are already convinced, and even if it could convince more people, its still too late...bush is in office

[K-W]

70. You dont know what you are talking about.

Comparing a sequal to a documentary to sequals of fictional hollywood movies is silly.

If you think his movie was just a campaign ad for Kerry, you clearly didnt watch it.

So what if the people who go see it are already convinced? What on earth is wrong with that? Since when is it wrong to make a movie about things you are interested in that other people who are interested in it go to see?

You are also ignoring the fact that many of his movie fans dont get progressive info from other places. Way more people saw f-911 than go to DU for instance.

Not only havent you proved your case, your case doesnt even argue that he did anything wrong.

Your only argument still has been that he is greedy because he is successful.

[RaleighNCDUer]

63. Not necessarily. I'm still working on my repub future brother-in-law.

Nice guy, reasonable man, with an unreasonable support for *. I've got 4 years now to bring him to the light. He'll remember the things I'm saying now over the next 4 years, and during that time I'm sure I can talk him into seeing F9/11.

[bobbobbins]

67. thats 4 years too late

[K-W]

71. If you think it is too late, go cry somewhere and stop bothering us.

We have a country to take back.

[Misunderestimator]

77. And I have acquaintances who never saw the first one...

because they "didn't want their impression changed" by Michael Moore, but they all intended to see the film after the election.

Defeatism and blame are sorry weapons to use against fascism.

[K-W]

56. You should read more carefully next time.

The movie he is currently working on is about the American healthcare system.

He mentioned that he has thought about doing and F-9/11 sequal.

Have you watched F9-11? Name one thing it covers that has been resolved or is on the verge of being resolved.

[bobbobbins]

60. or will ever be resolved

[K-W]

65. I think youve made it fairly clear that your only objective is to argue.

This last post doesnt even make any sense.

You are arguing that Moore shouldnt try to spread a progressive message because it is hopeless. Does this fit in any way shape or form with anything you have said up till now?

[bobbobbins]

68. I'm saying he had his chance, now hes just cashing in.

[K-W]

73. I know what you are saying, its just wrong and rediculous.

Your only support is that he has made money and continues to do so. So your argument is that he is greedy because he makes money. A laughable argument to say the least.

[bobbobbins]

81. thats not my argument...the amount of money he makes is pointless

he could make 10 billion dollars off f9-11 for all i care...im saying that his greed is starting to supercede the message...its like when a toy company releases a batman action figure, then releases a batman action figure with a removeable cape. Theres hardly anything new, yet the crap keeps coming out. If he wasn't interested in just making money, he should wait until he really has something poinant to say, as was the case with f9-11.

[Misunderestimator]

82. Imagine that... a filmmaker making one documentary, then another...

and then OMG yet another! The horror of it all.

[K-W]

54. And it is demonstratibly false.

He entered a career where pretty much no one gets rich.
He made career choices that at the time almost everyone thought would alienate him from the nation and destroy his career.
He was a Nader supporter in 2000... ya real greedy.
He is constantly donating large quantities of money.

There is not a single piece of evidence that suggests that greed is even near the top of the list of his motivations.

Some people just want to find reasons not to like him because they make thier decisons based on superficial anylisis and trends rather than facts. Moore is popular and successful, so he must be a jerk.

[bobbobbins]

62. No, i was quite happy that 9-11 was getting all the press it did

nice leap in logic there...that means I must hate all successful and popular people. I went and saw the movie like the rest of us...and i agree that he may have started with the best intentions...but when someone starts making money, sometimes they like it more than the cause that got them the money.

[K-W]

69. That was your logic, not mine.

And yes, it was flawed.

The fact that some people who make money become greedy does not prove that Moore became greedy.

Youve not made a single credible argument on this thread.

[bobbobbins]

72. Credible Arguments

Let me spell this out for you...Taking on the bush administration has been a cash cow for michael moore. That goes without question. Immediately before the election which could potentially effect his ability to make money, he releases 2 fairly pointless books...letters from soldiers...which he could have very easily sent to newspapers or posted on his website if he wanted everyone to see them. And the F9-11 reading companion...which for the most part(there are a few exceptions) would only be bought by people who have seen the movie and are voting against bush anyway. That reeks of desperation. Then after Bush's reelection he immediately announces he'll make a sequel to f9-11. Now if all those don't add up to some degree of profiteering...then i think you're just blindly following a man on the left, just like the right blindly follow bush and can't see any folly in his actions either.

[K-W]

75. Your definition of credible defies rational thought.

Once again, all you are arguing here is that because he was succesful, he must be greedy.

THe fact that people bought his books proves that they were not pointless. There was obviously a demand for them.

I suppose the only way moore could have made you happy was if he had written a motercycle maintenence guide.

[bobbobbins]

76. theres a big difference between success, and releasing innocuous crap

[K-W]

78. Im sorry that you think your opinion is fact.

Good luck negotiating life.

Im off from work, I hope you feel like you accomplished something by helping me kill time. Another battle won against the liberals im sure.

[RaleighNCDUer]

58. Have you considered that the companion reader might have been

a way of getting written talking points out to supporters? I'm a long time film fan, and for me a film is a sensory input medium, not an intellectual medium. It's hard to take talking point from a film that you can insert into a conversation. The reader may lay those points out in such a way as to allow you to do that. After all, watching film and reading activate different segments of the brain. Of course, the reader would be bought by fans, but as a way to help them influence fence-sitters.

(disclaimer -- I never saw the reader. Just know what I would have liked to have on hand, having seen the film 4 time, and purchased the DVD)

[bobbobbins]

74. posting talking points on his website would be out of the question?

[Mandate My Ass]

47. He donated all the proceeds of the soldiers' letters book

to Fischer House for wounded soldiers.

[K-W]

49. So his success proves his dispicability?

You are judging him by some rediculous standard that he could never possibly meet. He makes movies and writes books about topics he cares about. Topics he has cared about long before he was this famous.

Your only evidence that he is greedy is that he is successful. Your argument is completely and totally circular. Considering that fact that he entered a career that no one would have ever thought would lead to this, your argument is laughable.

He gets struck by lightning and becomes popular, and this is proof that he was greedy all along with his secret plan to enter a low money career that would catipult him to the front of a revamped liberal movement that didnt even exist when he first started?

[Geek_Girl]

79. There were plenty of Authors releasing books

Right before the election including Journalist Seymour Hersch who broke the Abu Ghraib scandal.

[Bouncy Ball]

87. Um

yeah he was preaching to the choir, brainiac, because SOMETIMES THE CHOIR NEEDS TO FUCKING SING!

[tx_dem41]

10. I think he's a good symbol for having good ideas/thoughts, but being..

..so obnoxious and self-centered in delivery, ultimately nothing gets accomplished.

Sadly many of the thoughts expressed yesterday on DU share this approach.

[K-W]

14. He didnt ask to be the liberal that got on the news.

He took an opportunity, reluctantly, to be a spokesperson because he could get airtime that no one else is going to get. I know most of the people who post about him here are being less than honest about their motives, but when someone sticks thier necks out to fight for progressive issues we should be the last people trying to chop off thier heads.

If democrats want to concede the media to the right and self censor liberals, they can bite me, and I am a huge defender of the democratic party. Michael Moore is just expressing his opinion. He isnt selfish, greedy or anything. Hes a documentarian whos found himself in the public spotlight and is trying to make the world a better place.

[tx_dem41]

15. My argument is more with the vaccuum of Democratic spokespeople..

...and less with Michael Moore. I should have been more clear about that.

Let's say, that it's a shame that he is cast as a spokesperson for the "party" and/or the "ideology".

[K-W]

17. I think he would agree with you.

While his enthusiasm may read as ambition right now, when he first started getting attention he was not comfortable with it. He was a Nader supporter after all.

[iconoclastNYC]

55. He has a right to free speech.

Tell me someone who could take his place? If there was, they'd be there already and they woulnd't be booking M. Moore.

[cyclezealot]

11. Michael Moore grew up working class.

Pompous no way...He uses humor to get his ideas across...I think screaming at the clowns who gave us the Patriot Act is using humor to get across his ideas to a public overwhealmed by details..Shows the right amount of contempt to a Congress either lazy or complicitious with those stealing us of our liberties..
Michael Moore has the contempt of the Repugs then he has my respect...Can I register as a Michael Moore Democrat...Sounds like a worthy party to me.

[AlGore-08.com]

12. Moore figured out that Smirk was dangerous 4 years too late

During the 2000 campaign he argued things like the Smirk Admin would never really hurt civil rights or the environment, and who got to nominate Supreme Court Justices didn't matter one bit, that things like that were scare tactics that the Dems trotted out every four years in order to scare progressives into voting Dem rather than Green. He also argued some truly bizarre, inflammatory things like Gore proved he didn't really care about minorities because he didn't pick a minority running mate (I don't know of any place where Jews are a majority except Israel).

The fact that Moore only started bashing Smirk and the far right (and supporting Dems rather than Greens) after his audience became hostile to all things anti-Dem makes me more than a little cynical about his motives.

Caveat emptor, folks.

[K-W]

26. That is a completely distorted read on what happened.

Moore is a progressive, and as such not a particularly big fan of centrist dems. Yes, he underestimate Bush. Im not sure why you want to crucify the man for not being a psychic. He thought that helping Nader was the right choice to push a truely progressive platform. He did not however support Nader in swing states and told voters in swing states to vote for Gore.

He was wrong, he knows now that he was wrong about one thing, and that is just how aweful Bush is and just how much he seems to be able to get away with.

Please dont act like it was obvious to everyone that Bush would be the worst president in history before he even took office.

[NYCGirl]

37. May I point out that Al Gore also highly underestimated what a Bush admin

was capable of?

[julialnyc]

18. I like his message, but often makes himself and the message indistinct

from one another. his message is wonderful, so sometimes it frustrates me that he puts too much emphasis on the messenger therefore sometimes deflecting from the importance of his quest.

[bunkerbuster1]

20. In that respect, F9/11 was a marked improvement

over previous films. There's far less of MM in it than in BoC.

I think the MM-centric parts of F9/11 are the weakest. The ice cream truck, the sidewalk stunts, feh. And I think he knows that.

Back to the original topic, I'm glad he fights, I have had my serious ideological differences with him in the past but he's generally a good guy, and any reThug who finds him offensive can kiss my ass.

[julialnyc]

28. I agree with you

the ice cream truck and "look at me" parts are the worst, but I love his message.
I almost wish he could do an anonymous movie for people to see....then come to find out years later is was MM. He has just had to much over-exposure as a polarizing figure.

[bunkerbuster1]

36. Authoring under a pseudonym is an honorable tradition

and so your suggestion would be a good way to put his filmmaking skill to the test.

But that'd obliterate the one thing that, for me, lends tremendous gravity to MM's films--no matter how you feel about him--his voice. I don't think the man's narration voice gets enough credit.

I still get choked up thinking about certain parts of F9/11, and part of that pathos is in how MM's voice is literally cracking. When he's being serious, his voice has a George Harrison-like quality that's devastating.

[julialnyc]

64. but he has an awesome team that works for him

I he could even get a Meryl Streep type to do narrative (I just saw a great documentary at a film festival about child laborers that she narrates).
it would be an interesting experiment to see what would happen if no one knew it was him.

[bunkerbuster1]

90. We progressives have big mouths.

Let's face it, MM couldn't keep something like that under wraps! Too many people involved--in a documentary, hundreds, at least.

With a book, well, how many people have to know?

Just thinking out loud. Like you say, an interesting idea for an experiment.

[CountAllVotes]

21. well he has a message

and he sure got it out with Fahrenheit 911 I'd say.

:kick:

[Bridget Burke]

22. He got it out so well to stir up a lot of opposition.

They come here all the time.

[skypilot]

24. I was feeling very ambivalent...

...about Fahrenheit 9/11 as I was watching it. After a few days I realized that I really didn't like it. I was glad that it had made it into theaters because I knew that it had had trouble finding a distributor but I found parts of it way to "cutsie" also--especially for a film whose very title references September 11th. When I'm honest with myself I have to admit that I was annoyed throughout much of the movie. I still like Michael Moore but I think that with this particular film he could have afforded to roll back on the laughs and been more serious. Laughter can be cathartic and I fear that that catharsis may sometimes undermine some of the justifiable anger that people feel under this administration.

[wtmusic]

25. Michael Moore is terrific

over the top? yes. Juvenile, at times? yes.

Talented? Yes. Committed? Absolutely. He shakes the hornet's nest and that's exactly what we need.

[greyfox]

33. And together....

we all shouted AMEN to that! I like Moore -- he is me in bad clothes and with a fat belly -- and I love his spunk!!!

[Steve2525]

27. Agreed n/t

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. Rather than slam Micheal Moore for the umpteenth time

why not just tell us what kind of democrat you are.

At least Moore has stood firm for the principles that made this party what it was in the past.

[neweurope]

38. I didn't read all of the posts. I can only say that M.M. has awakened

a lot of Europeans to what's going on in the USA - people who ordinarily don't much care he has reached with his mixture of investigating and entertaining. And that is VERY GOOD. Controversy about Moore I cannot much understand: He is one of many fighting Bush. We are all different but we all have one main goal. Let's all who oppose the Bushistas embrace each other - they're the greatest danger right now. We need each other. AFTERWARDS we can start differentiating.

[cally]

39. I credit MM with making it acceptable to question *

Before his book came out, there were almost NO books or articles discussing that were at all negative to the * administration. Remember when all the bookstores had and excess of RW propaganda and almost nothing from the left. MM persevered, got his book published, and self-promoted it. It stayed on the best seller list because of MM endless speeches that were not on the mainstream book marketing circuit. Because his book was such a success, publishers saw that there was a market out there and more books were published. I thank MM for this.

I think the funny parts in F9/11 helped to break the feelings of horror and dread. I needed a break at times.

He's become the focus of much of RW attacks. They must fear him. I can't understand why any Democrat or progressive would join in the RW hatefest.

Maybe you didn't love his film but you can't deny he's doing all he can to help us.

[Misunderestimator]

40. Yeah, let's not elevate him to anything... I think the worldwide ticket

sales of F/911 did that well enough. Man... seems a person has to be utterly perfect to be admired by some around here.

Michael Moore is an icon to me, and I will continue to admire him.

[mother earth]

80. I really loved him too, but felt disappointed by

his lack of response after the election, it wasn't enough. We hold our heroes to a higher standard, he didn't rise to the occasion, we needed him to do that.

[Misunderestimator]

84. He's a filmmaker. He did more than any single one of us on this site

to bring the right message. To hold him responsible for the election is folly. How do you feel he SHOULD have responded after the election?

[buddhamama]

85. whatever-

when you have influenced millions with your words and deeds, perhaps then i'll care what kind of Democrat you are. next opinion please.

[Bouncy Ball]

86. Well that's great

because he doesn't consider himself to be a Democrat.

Do you?

Who cares? He made a film. Like it or don't like it. He's not a spokesman for the Democratic party. He's a documentary filmmaker.

Oh and by the way, I say thank GOD for Michael Moore. When I saw F 9/11 I saw that someone finally put up on the big screen what I had been thinking and feeling for YEARS about bushco.

[Bouncy Ball]

88. Where is the original author of this thread?

Hit and run?

[slutticus]

91. Sure looks like it, doesn't it?

Hmmmmmmm.....