Help me out, will ya? (Miscarriage bill in VA)

[Squatch]

Hey, everybody, if you're reading this other thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2916861

I just wanted to ask for your (serious and respectful) input to a letter I am going to write to that monumental Asshole, John Cosgrove.

Here's what I have:

"Dear Delegate Cosgrove:
I would like to take a minute to convey my disappointment in your authoring and sponsorship of HB 1677 “Fetal death; report by mother, penalty.”

This bill, if passed, would result in an unnecessary invasion of an expectant mother’s privacy. I understand that you have authored this bill at the behest of Virginia law enforcement agencies, however, I must remind you that government exists to protect the rights of its citizenry.

My wife is currently expecting with our first child. Should we experience the gross misfortune of a miscarriage, we would not inform law enforcement officials, whether such a legal requirement exists or not. I will not subject my wife, or any expectant mother, to the bureaucracy of filing a law enforcement report any time after such a devastating occurrence, let alone 12 hours following miscarriage.

I encourage you to abandon this bill as an unenforceable, invasive, and punitive measure that will only add to the anguish of a traumatic event such as miscarriage. "

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Thanks in advance, Squatch.

[demnan]

1. That's great!

And if you live in Virginia, write also to your state delegate and senator.

You can go here to do so:

http://conview.state.va.us/whosmy.nsf/main?openform

[Squatch]

3. Thanks.

[arcane1]

2. yet another reason (of many) why I'm glad I moved out of that state

they have lost their fucking minds :eyes:

[Southpaw Bookworm]

4. Me too

Jesus H. Christ!

[Mandate My Ass]

5. You're nicer than I would have been

Since when is a pregnant person on probation?

Since when does the condition of pregnancy require compliance with law enforcement surveillance?

Since when is a pregnant person presumed guilty unless they prove their innocence?

I'm sure the twelve hour deadline is so they can "test" the woman and charge her with a crime if she comes up positive for certain substances.

Law enforcement tried this in South Carolina with secret testing of drug-using pregnant women and the SCOTUS handed them their asses.


I would add unconstitutional and misogynistic to the list of adjectives in the last sentence. I hope your letter gets published.

Congrats on your wife's pregnancy. Best wishes to all three of you.
:hi:

[Squatch]

6. Thanks. This bill hits just a little too close to home...

both literally and geographically. My wife is pregnant and I live in Chesapeake, where this A-hole supposedly represents me.

Fuuuuuuuuuuuck that noise.

[auntAgonist]

7. Very well written. Congratulations on the upcoming birth of your baby!

This is the first I've heard of this .. I'm flabbergasted and off to do some research!


thank you!

[candle_bright]

11. I agree

This is kind of wierd sounding. I don't understand why this isn't just a medical issue.

[Squatch]

12. And, here's another problem I have with this bill.

Cosgrove says in that other thread (in an e-mail) that this bill is an attempt to curb disposal of human corpses, which is illegal if not done properly.

So, what is this bill designed to accomplish? Make it MORE illegal to dump a human body or fetus?

[elehhhhna]

8. They'll just make OB/Gyns report instead. Voila! Women avoid aftercare..

Shall we register our pregnancies?

Shall we bring to expelled tissue to the local police station, or can they housecall?

I think you might ask him to elaborate on his proposal.

[gratuitous]

15. AND . . .

We'll want to be sure that no fertile woman anywhere in the state has had a failed embryo implant, right? After all, if life begins at the moment sperm penetrates egg, then we can't just have women flushing little lives willy-nilly with their monthly discharge, can we? State offices should be set up and set up now to go through this microscopically so we can be sure to arrest and charge any woman whose fertilized egg is sloughed off with the menses rather than implanting and being carried to term.

I've seen estimates that this happens over half the time in humans, so we'll probably need to build a whole bunch of jails to hold all the new criminals that we'll be creating.

[noamnety]

9. Very well written and respectful

Far better than mine, I sent one saying if the law passes, I will be encouraging my friends to send all their used feminine hygiene products to the police for inspection, because we can never be sure a fertilized egg didn't pass through - it's the only way I can see to be entirely within the scope of the law.

[Squatch]

10. Well, I do have to live here after all...

It wouldn't be smart to rock this boat too much. Next thing I know, the garbage truck comes to my house once a year.

[SemperEadem]

13. first off..

I wouldn't call anyone but my husband regarding a miscarriage. This is none of the state's business. Since they wouldn't have been supporting the born child, they have no vested interest in knowing my persona business.

You'd have to catch me, first, and that ain't gonna happen. I sure wouldn't be giving anyone a heads up about my miscarriage.

[Kber]

14. 12 hours? That's nuts!!!

Well, the whole idea is nuts, but that's especially nuts.

I had a miscarriage in early 2002 and 12 hours after the "incident" I was still on the operating table while my doctor was trying to restart my heart and lungs after I lost 75% of my blood supply.

After 6 days in the hospital, I was barely able to cope physically, let alone emotionally, with what had happened. So on top of healing physically, helping to comfort (and be comforted by) my husband, and reassuring my 4 year old who was terrified by the whole thing, I get to fill out a police report, like I was accused of shop lifting or something? NUTS!!!

Frankly, this bill is just cruel.

[noamnety]

16. Response from Cosgrove

I got this in my email today (his underlining/bolding):

"Hello:

I am Delegate Cosgrove and I wish to respond to the allegations that have been made by those who have emailed and called my office. The intent of House Bill 1677 is to require the notification of authorities of a delivery of a baby that is dead and the mother has not been attended by a medical professional. This bill was requested by the Chesapeake Police Department in its legislative package due to instances of full term babies who were abandoned shortly after birth. These poor children died horrible deaths and all that the person responsible could be charged with is the improper disposal of a human body.

The requirement for twelve hours comes from the method that a coroner would use to determine if the child had been born alive or dead. After twelve hours, it becomes next to impossible to determine if the child was alive due to decomposition gasses that build up in the body.

My bill in no way intends that a woman who suffers a miscarriage should be charged for not notifying authorities. The bill in no way mentions miscarriages, only deliveries. After discussing the bill again with our legislative services lawyers, I will include language that will define the bill to apply only to those babies that are abandoned as stated above.

I would never inflict this type of emotional torture on a woman who has suffered such a traumatic event as a miscarriage, and I am confident that the General Assembly of Virginia would also not pass such a terrible imposition on a woman.

I hope that you will understand the original intent of this bill. This bill has nothing to do with abortion, contraception and especially miscarriages. If you were alarmed by this bill or by the websites, I am sorry. I hope that this will explain the concept and intent of this bill.

Sincerely,

John A. Cosgrove"

So my question is, can someone explain to me what is the difference between a delivery of a stillborn that isn't attended by a medical person, and a miscarriage? Is there a medical difference?

[liberalhistorian]

18. Most miscarriages occur within

the first few months of pregnancy (and often the woman doesn't even know she's pregnant). Stillbirths, however, are full-term babies that are born dead (sorry for the bluntness, but that's the only way to put it).

I think his email is full of shit and that he's only backpedaling after getting a shitstorm thrown at him. He probably thought women would just "lie down and take it" like the right expects us to always do, and was likely surprised at the strength of the resistance. But let's say it isn't bullshit, that the rationale he gives is, in fact, true. Even in that case, women who have stillborn babies with no medical attendance sure as shit ain't gonna report it to the cops, no way, so that's not going to solve anything at all. And it will just cause women to stay away from their doctors for fear they'd be reported for the crime of pregnancy.

[noamnety]

19. Thanks

I don't mind the bluntness, it's not half as blunt as the letter I sent him.

I've just sent off a second email:

Subject: Requesting a clarification to your response concerning HB1677

I appreciate your response to my question about HB1677. I am unclear on the distinction you are making between deliveries of a dead baby and miscarriages. Can you define your terms? For example, when you say "full term baby," does that mean 20 weeks from conception? 25 weeks? Born on or after the due date?

What if a conception date has not been determined?

Thanks in advance for the clarification,

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. Don't forget

many women don't know when they have had a miscarriage. It happened to me. I went to the doctor for a routine checkup and he told me I had had a miscarriage a month before. I didn't even realize I had been pregnant. Apparently, this isn't all that uncommon.

[underpants]

20. Squatch my wife is likewise pregnant with our first

"We" just passed the 8 week point. This whole thing is so madly obsurd that it mystifies me. I like your letter and will compose one myself.

[underpants]

21. Contact information for Del.John Cosgrove (Chesapeake)

http://dela.state.va.us/dela/MemBios.nsf/a7b082ef6ed01eac85256c0d00515644/edafc52bfefcf8fd85256f7e00694fda?OpenDocument&Click=85256823005F1997.f3ec5270fd6ab58e85256b06006d8aec/$ViewMapLayout/0.5DE