To those DUers who think Michael Moore is doing more harm than good.

[NightTrain]

On Thursday, Rep. Maxine Waters took to the floor of the House and said, "Mr. Speaker and members, I dedicate my objection to Ohio's electoral votes to Mr. Michael Moore, the producer of the documentary '9/11,' and I thank him for educating the world on the threats to our democracy and the proceedings of this house on the acceptance of the electoral college votes for the 2000 presidential election."

So, how many more of you want to claim that Michael Moore is doing the Democratic Party more harm than good? Hmm???

[Cha]

1. Bless Maxine Waters..she is doing

what she believes in..how many people in the Senate and Congress can say that?

And so is Michael!

[Mojambo]

2. When telling the truth does more harm than good

I'm pretty sure I don't want to be a part of this anymore.

[Solly Mack]

3. No kidding

[Raster]

4. Rock on Michael Moore. And doing the dems harm??? Puhleeeze....

...the only thing harming the Dems is their lack of a spine.

Time to take "corporate" out of American government.

Time to nationalize the election infrastructure and convert to an all vote-by-mail system.

Dear Representatives in Congress:

After (S)election 2000 you promised us that the voting mess would be fixed. You lied. Now after (S)election 2004 once again you tell us "don't worry." Guess what? We don't believe you any more. You are either with "We the people" or you are against us. Make your choice.

Sincerely,

John Q. Public

P.S.: Quit raggin' on Michael Moore. He's more of an American patriot than the whole mess of you.

[NightTrain]

6. My point exactly!

Which is why it irritates the fuck out of me whenever I see a small (but vocal) number of DUers lambasting Moore. Of course, those people could be right-wing moles, but there's really no way of knowing that for sure. :shrug:

[Raster]

18. If they're not trolls, than it's the "stay out of the way and maybe they.

...won't bother me" syndrome. WRONG!!! Bullies LOVE "stay out of the way" people. They are sooooo easy to intimidate and torture.

[Raster]

25. During the early days of the nazi terror, there actually were jews that

advocated appeasement, which never works. You have to stand up for yourself and your beliefs. The only thing a fascist understands is force.

[purduejake]

5. Well, he is dangerous to the Democrats...

without spines... especially the Republican-lites.

[cali]

7. I'm not a MM fan

but it's hard to see how he's doing harm to democratic ideals. I simply prefer more subtlety in film making than he displays. I've said it before and I'll say it again: "Fog of War" was a far better anti Iraq war movie than F911, and the word Iraq never came up.
I think Errol Morris' work is superior to MM's. I suppose I look at Moore as an interesting combination of provocateur, activist and performance artist. I just don't think (despite what Maxine Waters said) he's all that important in relation to the dem party. He's neither a big negative nor a big positive.

[Lindsey]

9. IMHO Michael Moore is the most heroic man in our country

at this time. A friend of mine who's not political at all just saw F911 and was quite taken aback. She was especially touched by the fact that the congressmen don't have thier loved ones in the war and were basically running from him. She said she wished she'd seen the movie before the election. He's one of the guttiest people around (and I love his letter about Boxer and what went on last week.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

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[ElsewheresDaughter]

42. MM is a true American Patriot and Hero...a true Humanitarian I LOVE MM!!!

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

12. I guess the misunderstanding is on your part then since F911 is not

an anti-Iraq war mavie...it is a documentary about the manipulation of the American public by George Bush and co following the worst terrorist disaster on American soil since Pearl Harbor was bombed.

[cali]

16. Your description of F911 is far better than mine

but a good portion of the flick is indeed an anti-Iraq war message. "Fog of War" is about Vietnam and Rober McNamara. It's also an anti-Iraq war movie.

[NightTrain]

15. It's perfectly OK that you find fault with Moore's filmmaking technique.

That's not what I was talking about. Rather, I was referring to the DLC types who insist that Moore's "far left" message alienates everyday Americans. If that were true, his movies wouldn't keep raking in hundreds of millions of dollars while the six (count 'em, six!) anti-Moore propaganda films done by the right have all stiffed. (A DUer recently posted that his local Blockbuster has 14 copies of "FarenHYPE 9/11" in the cut-out bin selling for $2.00 each--and they're still not moving!)

[bpilgrim]

36. there is NOTHING more important then getting the WORD out...

just ask any marketing person they'll tell ya.

but that is what everyone is talking about with MM and that is why he is VERY important to the cause... kinda like a DU for the masses :evilgrin:

psst... pass the word ;->

:hi:

peace

[Taxloss]

8. His movies will be around, and popular, for decades.

They are his gift to us that keeps giving. I don't like some things about him, but his contribution to the progressive cause worldwide is incalculable.

[peacetalksforall]

10. Truth hurts. It's hard work to recognize the truth.

Moore did more good for the country in one documentary than the right wing has done in five decades.

Hurt and hard. Please recognize the irony here - since our pResident is always hurting and hard working, but some work harder and many hurt more.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

11. Since our own party is so disorganized and awkward at getting its

message out, and barely makes the effort anyway, the powers-that-be in the DNC and DLC have no right to cmoplain until they can produce media that get the truth out to millions of people and entertain them at the same time.

Why wasn't the Democratic Party showing footage of the protestors at the Inauguration? Why wasn't the Democratic Party pointing out that the Dade County "rioters" were all Republican Congressional aides? Why didn't the Democratic Party let it be known what a disaster Bushboy was for Texas?

Why are certain elements in the Democratic Party trying to disassociate themselves from a major media figure who tells the truth?

[BrklynLiberal]

13. events of 1/6/2001 and egg throwing at 1/20/2001 inaugural parade: Did

you know about either of these events? Would you have known about them if it were not for Michael Moore?
Think about how much more you learned for the first time from his films....not just "Fahrenheit 9/11"?
He was doing the job that the media was supposed to have been doing and was not!!

[Me.]

20. Totally

I was shocked when I saw the egg throwing. Every one of my friends and I said, did you know about that? Which we did not. I'll confess to not watching any more of the inaugural that was forced on me on the news because I could never stand the bastard, but the media ignored it completely. If it had been Clinton it would have been the lead in and the headline on every paper. That incident made it very clear how the public was being manipulated by the spin and media. As for MM, he and Dean were the only voice in the wilderness for a long time. No one else (aside from the black caucus) seems to be standing up for us then OR now. So I guess it boils down to being a case of "shoot the messenger".

I wrote my senators yesterday and told them they seem to have forgotten that they represent the people from one of the bluest of blue states, and should remember that. At least with MM you know where he stands, the rest seem to be just talking a good game.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

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[NightTrain]

31. Here's a link for you.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=16

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. Watch Farenheit 9/11

you will learn all about these and many other events the MSM didn't bother to tell you.

[bobweaver]

14. Anything that pisses off the right is good for America, including Moore.

[damntexdem]

17. Moore did a lot for the Party.

Just as Dean did. Neither, of course, can ever be forgiven by the DLC.

[Downtown Hound]

19. I firmly believe that were it not for Moore

We would have gotten at least several million votes less than we did in the last election. Issues voter fraud aside, Moore helped us prevent a Bush landslide.

[TankLV]

22. Not me - if it wasn't for MM, the Dem Party would even have found the tiny

balls is had in the last election, and it would have been a landslide for bunkerboy.

He first and foremost, single handedly, made it possible to even criticize the criminals in OUR White House.

The others half-heartedly jumped on MM's bandwagon.

[leyton]

23. Well, at the least, I was unimpressed with F9/11.

It was a farce. Yeah, some of the stuff was true and much of it is stuff that we ought to be pissed off about. But Moore really screwed several things up.

* The attitude of the film was so over-the-top, past partisan, it was just stupid. Things like complaining about Bush sleeping in silk sheets on 9/10/01 were just inane. That attitude meant that nobody who wasn't already a die-hard anti-Busher was going to be convinced.

* The portrayal of the troops. Now, I know someone is going to flame me and say that I am parroting the right-wing or whatever, but I don't care. There are troops that do good things and troops that do bad things. The latter was portrayed with the soldier entering the Iraqi house at night. But there are troops who are protecting Iraq government figures, who are working to rebuild the country, etc. I think most of them over there are genuinely proud of what they do. The fault for the war lies with the planners in Washington and the select few who commit atrocities, not with the everyday soldier who follows orders.

* The connections to Saudi businessmen did not seem to amount to much. I'm a stickler for having damning evidence, not just a bunch of circumstantial facts that can be cobbled together into a semi-indictment. Now I'm not saying that there aren't connections between the Bushes and the Saudis - I'm sure there are - but Moore didn't convince me.

I will say that the scene where Gore counted the electoral votes almost made me cry. That he had to do that, that no one would sign on, pisses me off to this day. That to me redeemed the movie in part, but not in full.

Flame away.

[NightTrain]

26. I personally know six people who voted for Kerry because of "F 9/11."

Of those six people, four of them hadn't voted in years, and the other two were first-time voters. That hardly supports your claim that, "That attitude meant that nobody who wasn't already a die-hard anti-Busher was going to be convinced."

And another thing: Why is it considered OK when a right-winger takes a partisan stand, but not when a left-winger does the same?

[leyton]

39. It's not okay, and Moore's was beyond partisan.

I thought it was laughable.

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. The Saudi connections didn't seem to amount to much?

We must not have watched the same movie.

Go beyond the movie. After seeing it I was inspired to look into the Carlysle Group and the Bin Ladens. Moore just barely broke the surface exposing these evils.

[leyton]

40. I meant he didn't come up with a conclusion.

Basically there were a lot of interesting facts, but facts have to connected in a reasonable manner to make a case. I didn't feel that they were. But you are right in that I have not done further research, and I am sure there is a lot more. But I didn't think the film handled it particularly well.

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. Ok I see your point

but the film really sparked my interest. I was motivated to learn more. I guess I didn't see it as Moore's responsibility to connect all the dots.

[Liberal In Texas]

24. Michael Moore is a national treasure.

We need about 10 more of him.
Period.

[NightTrain]

27. Ten more? How about 10,000 more?

That would be more like it! :thumbsup:

[Liberal In Texas]

34. OK. I wasn't trying to be greedy. ;-) n/t

[SemperEadem]

28. hte interesting thing about Michael Moore's films

is that not one right wing, rethuglican, neocon crybaby whiner has yet to put out a 90 minute documentary refuting ANYTHING Moore has used as a factual basis for his movie. Let alone it being entered in every film festival and winning prizes.

So, are they really angry at the messenger, or they angry that when they went to look at what information is out there on the subject to support what they want people to believe, they found nothing that substantiated the spin they were trying to put to the message?

[NightTrain]

30. Would you believe, FAHRENHEIT 9/11 inspired six RW answer films?

And not one of them was seen outside of wingnut circles. God damn that liberal media! :evilgrin:

[Raster]

33. I think the BFEE is pissed as hell that Moore had the audacity

to catch them in the act and film it. And remember, other than the occasional sound-bite-type personal insult, the bush* family has not attempted ANY type of lawsuit or legal retaliation against Michael Moore. No slander lawsuits, no defamation of character, nada. It's not that they don't have the legal firepower (remember james baker, of baker & botts?), it's that they don't want to have to answer any more questions than necessary. The LAST thing anyone in the bush* family wants to do is be forced to honor a subpoena and be deposed.

Most of us in the reality-based community just don't get it. The bush*'s really believe their motives are unquestionable and their actions are above reproach. They believe the ends always justify the means. He who wins, wins, and winning is EVERYTHING. Here's the REALLY SCARY PART: they truly believe they deserve to win, no matter the cost.

For the most part, the upper tier members of the bush* family are not stupid people. They knew that in a fair election, gee-dubya would not win. And it was absolutely imperative to friends, family and fellow conspirators that they win. But not to worry, their "business partners" controlled Congress. Their appointees and minions controlled the Supreme Court. And in exactly the states that mattered, friend and family controlled the state election infrastructure, allowing them to set the rules and then count the votes.

In Vanity Fair's best of issue is a picture of kkkarl rove taken election night right after he announced to the "family" that they won. He looked like the cat that swallowed the canary. It wasn't a look of triumph or relief, but rather a look that said "I got away with it and you'll NEVER be able prove it." He knew they had succeeded with a well-orchestrated, all-out effort (coup part deux) to hold the presidency. Contrary to the true wishes of the citizens of the United States of America george w. bush would be returned to the White House. And there would be nothing anyone could do about it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. Michael Moore is far more patriotic

than any of the repub scums who had nothing original to say and just read newspaper editorials on the House and Senate floor the other day.

[Stepup2]

41. Proud he is from Michigan

He was one of the few voices that cut thru the stagnation in the conservative backwater where I live.

I heard people discussing his films, and the topics covered in them, at many gatherings over the holidays...nice change of pace over the normal polite nothingness I typically hear.