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I think Bush's excellent adventure in Iraq is unraveling.

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KlatooBNikto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 07:25 AM
Original message
I think Bush's excellent adventure in Iraq is unraveling.
His entire plan in Iraq was to establish a puppet regime with which he will sign a military pact and put us on the ground for a zillion years. That required, at a minimum, an Iraqi population that would go along and let him do what he wants. It is clear that is not going to happen any time soon.And the costs of getting them to do any thing at all are mounting to the point he is now desperate. He wants to raid the Social Security Trust Fund to finance his War on Iraq.

He is now talking about establishing death squads like El Salvador to terrorize the Iraqis further alienating them.His options are running out.Even his sycophants are keeping quiet because things are getting bleaker by the day.

Like Pete Seeger used to sing : We are in the big muddy ( Or the big sandy) and the big fool says push on.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
1. It may be unraveling but social security won't help
I agree with the thrust of your post, but shrub is not raiding social security to finance the war. In fact, raiding social security will be ruinously expensive and will be an obstacle to financing the war. Maintaining the social security system as it is, with its trust fund that can be borrowed by the govt would actually be better for shrub. You are giving him too much credit -- as though he were intelligent or at least logical. He isn't; he's a complete idiot.
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
2. I can't remember Bush's folly in Iraq ever "raveling"..............
so I guess it can't see it "unraveling". It was a foolhardy mistake from it's inception. Now we can see why his father, "Bush the Smarter", never wanted to go any further after Desert Storm One. But "sonny boy" knew better, he was 'gonna show Daddy who was the biggest man in the family!
How ashamed his father must be now. His spoiled little idiot son has brought unending hate and malice toward this country. Never again will we be able to walk the streets of any foreign city in safety again. All this so baby bush could show daddy who the best bush is.
George W. Bush will go down in history as one of the most reviled men and a laughing stock of American Presidents.
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
3. can I get a link/reference for your "death squad" news?
also, I though they already raided SS....
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chookie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. link
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Thanks, that news is as awful as possible.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. O M G......
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 08:34 AM by leftchick
This is horrible! Just when I think things can't get more awful they do....

~snip~

Meanwhile, intensive discussions are taking place inside the Senate Intelligence Committee over the Defense department’s efforts to expand the involvement of U.S. Special Forces personnel in intelligence-gathering missions. Historically, Special Forces’ intelligence gathering has been limited to objectives directly related to upcoming military operations—"preparation of the battlefield," in military lingo. But, according to intelligence and defense officials, some Pentagon civilians for years have sought to expand the use of Special Forces for other intelligence missions.

Pentagon civilians and some Special Forces personnel believe CIA civilian managers have traditionally been too conservative in planning and executing the kind of undercover missions that Special Forces soldiers believe they can effectively conduct. CIA traditionalists are believed to be adamantly opposed to ceding any authority to the Pentagon. Until now, Pentagon proposals for a capability to send soldiers out on intelligence missions without direct CIA approval or participation have been shot down. But counter-terrorist strike squads, even operating covertly, could be deemed to fall within the Defense department’s orbit.


The interim government of Prime Minister Ayad Allawi is said to be among the most forthright proponents of the Salvador option. Maj. Gen.Muhammad Abdallah al-Shahwani, director of Iraq’s National Intelligence Service, may have been laying the groundwork for the idea with a series of interviews during the past ten days. Shahwani told the London-based Arabic daily Al-Sharq al-Awsat that the insurgent leadership—he named three former senior figures in the Saddam regime, including Saddam Hussein’s half-brother—were essentially safe across the border in a Syrian sanctuary. "We are certain that they are in Syria and move easily between Syrian and Iraqi territories," he said, adding that efforts to extradite them "have not borne fruit so far."

And let's not forget who is running the show in Iraq....



Ambassador to Iraq John Negroponte, center,(amid his mercenary guards) was ambassador to Honduras during the Reagan years

:puke:

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peekaloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. worst fears realized about Negroponte's "appointment".
shameful and disgusting.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #8
30. Negroponte, and that Allawi was a former CIA-paid TERRORIST
who went around organizing car bombings in Iraq.

The top people "in charge" of Iraq are murderous terrorist thugs. Of course they think they should hire death squads.

And the payback to America is gonna be one f*ck of a total bitch.
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enough Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. Tried and true methods.
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 10:30 AM by enough
from the Newsweek article:

snip>

Now, NEWSWEEK has learned, the Pentagon is intensively debating an option that dates back to a still-secret strategy in the Reagan administration’s battle against the leftist guerrilla insurgency in El Salvador in the early 1980s. Then, faced with a losing war against Salvadoran rebels, the U.S. government funded or supported "nationalist" forces that allegedly included so-called death squads directed to hunt down and kill rebel leaders and sympathizers. Eventually the insurgency was quelled, and many U.S. conservatives consider the policy to have been a success—despite the deaths of innocent civilians and the subsequent Iran-Contra arms-for-hostages scandal. (Among the current administration officials who dealt with Central America back then is John Negroponte, who is today the U.S. ambassador to Iraq. Under Reagan, he was ambassador to Honduras.)

Following that model, one Pentagon proposal would send Special Forces teams to advise, support and possibly train Iraqi squads, most likely hand-picked Kurdish Peshmerga fighters and Shiite militiamen, to target Sunni insurgents and their sympathizers, even across the border into Syria, according to military insiders familiar with the discussions. It remains unclear, however, whether this would be a policy of assassination or so-called "snatch" operations, in which the targets are sent to secret facilities for interrogation. The current thinking is that while U.S. Special Forces would lead operations in, say, Syria, activities inside Iraq itself would be carried out by Iraqi paramilitaries, officials tell NEWSWEEK.

snip>
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
4. His "adventure" never had a chance in hell of working....
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 08:19 AM by leftchick
That is the problem when you have insane neocon advisors running the government. They chose to ignore, and still do, solid rational advise.

I believe they and idiotface* won't stop this massacre for years. The American people do not seem very concerned about the cost in both blood and treasure at the moment. For God's sakes there isn't even a Democrat in congress questioning this insanity right now! Sadly I think it will take years of killing, a draft and protests in the street before all is said and done in Iraq.

:(
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LiberalEsto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
9. They're not getting their oil
The idea was to go in their and secure the Iraqis' oil. But Iraqi opposition fighters are blowing up oil supply lines, hence reducing Halliburton's profits.
The B*sh Misadministration thought it was going to oust Saddam and bully a bunch of ignorant natives into serfdom, and walk away with one of the world's largest remaining oil reserves. But now it looks like the operation is unprofitable and not worth the hassle.
I suspect B*shco is desperate for a face-saving excuse to pull out.
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mother earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. Oh, how I hope you are right.
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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #9
19. The intent has been to keep the oil from the market, not put it on the
market. There is little profit in massive amounts of cheap oil. The profit is ramming up the prices by pretending there is a shortage.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. Correct.
Saudi Arabia, the country from which 15 of 19 9/11 terrorists came from, has benefited quite handsomely from this Bush WOT:

(1) We've exited their country, militarily.
(2) We've taken out the secular leader who posed a threat to the House of Saud (Hussein).
(3) The destruction of the Iraqi oil infrastructure makes the SA product worth more on the market today.

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LiberalEsto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #19
32. I didn't say they were going to put the oil on the market
but you've made an excellent point. They won't flood the market with oil.

The world's oil supplies are being rapidly depleted. Put yourself in Halliburton's place (ugh) and imagine what profits could be made if you control the last big reservoir of oil after everything else has run out and prices have gone sky-high for what's left. They will in a sense rule the world, unless we develop effective alternate energy sources.

The Iraqis are fighting not just for their right to run their country as they see fit, but for their economic future and for control of the profits from their own natural resources.
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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #9
20. The operation is HIGHLY profitable. The oil cos are reporting 56% increase
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 10:00 AM by radwriter0555
in profits.

It's working great.
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teryang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
10. Social security is "raided" for defense funds every year
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 08:50 AM by teryang
...I think Johnson started this during the Vietnam war. FICA revenues are treated as general revenues for practical purposes. There is nothing but a bunch of government IOUs in the so-called trust funds. They will never be paid. This is why whatever the stated deficit is, you can always add at least 200 billion dollars for funds taken from social security revenues. Last fiscal years deficit was closer to 700 billion than the 450 or so claimed by the administration. They don't count the funds "borrowed" from social security.

I think Clinton may have been the only recent president not to have presided over this fiscal hocus-pocus. He actually tried to discharge government debt by running a surplus, thereby strengthening social security. Now with chimp's pro-war regime, the amount taken from social security approximates the amount of additional defense expeditures for the Iraq war. This defense budget is as big as that of the peak of the Vietnam war. The economic consequences will be even worse as we have astronomically greater debt and we have exported our manufacturing base.
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
11. It's 1973 all over again

"George W. Nixon" seems more appropriate with every passing day.
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Prodemsouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Wishful thinking..Nixon had powerful opposition despite McGovern's
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 09:40 AM by Prodemsouth
loss in 72. The Dems still dominated both houses of congress. Even the far left of the early 70s was a more powerful political force than today's Democratic Party. Where are the people that are going to bring Bush down- please don't say Repugs, or Moderate Repugs because I will :puke:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. it wasn't Democrats that brought Nixon done, though

It was Nixon's falling through the ice all by himself that did him in.

Bush has hard support from 40-45% of voters. I think you confuse their determination with actual power. Any objective look at where Bush's power derives from reveals that it's remarkably conditional and weak- but most people get taken in by the bluff and the intense desire by a few that he succeed.
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Prodemsouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. Huh!!! As if Plame was not falling through the ice, as if WMD lies was
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 10:04 AM by Prodemsouth
not falling through the ice. 40-45% of hard supporters is strong base of support. I didn't ask you who supports Bush, but who is going to bring him down. Reagan fell through the ice too- but he had people that were only too happy to help pull him out and he sold arms to a sworn enemy!
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. lordy, you're one for hasty conclusions

First of all, the Christian Right accounts for 29% of registered voters and the same proportion of turnout. They're just clustered so as to account for 10% of the vote in New England but 40% in the South and 50-60% in the Prarie States. Its the atheistic money grubbers and the egotistic white privilege part of the Republican base that are distributed more evenly and account for the cunning and power margin.

Secondly, if you look at American history and the Presidency, Presidents don't get actually get shot down politically for doing stuff that is unpopular or breaks laws. They get shot down for doing stuff that prevents them fulfilling the historical role they must play- though most of the people and most of the Presidents have wrong ideas about what that historical role is most of the time.

Reagan's role was a revision on FDR's changes to the country- a ridiculous claim on its face but more easy to support than you imagine. FDR got away with stacking the USSC and running an undeclared war and changing the American economic system away from the colonial arrangement; Reagan probably got away with less, technically. Bush Sr. revised Truman's changes (and revisited the Korean War), Clinton revised/revisited changes that began under Ike, and Bush Jr is out there revising and revisiting everything that was tried and changed in the JFK/LBJ/Nixon era- including the Cuba and Vietnam warfare. If things proceed at the clip they have during '01-'04, we'll get through revisiting the Carter Presidency and the Reagan one by '08 easily.

Yes, we're stuck depending on the moderates, especially the Republican leaning sort, to abandon Bush. Not that they're as far from it as you seem to believe. In as polarized country as we have now, Bush having 'only' 45% support is politically fatal over a relatively short span of time. Live by the sword of incivility and mongering small pluralities, die by it. I think the Plame Affair isn't as harmless or dead as you think.

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Prodemsouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Watergate was not breaking the law?
Edited on Sun Jan-09-05 11:51 AM by Prodemsouth
You talk about later Presidents revised/revisiting changes. I understand somewhat about Reagan and FDR. What do you mean by FDR's undeclared war? Clinton and Ike? explain yourself please, I really want to hear about that one. I will not hold my breath on Moderates. Lincoln Chafee could not bring himself to vote for Kerry, but as a protest voted for Bush's father. By the time they work up to real opposition. Bush will be flying back home to Crawford second term completed. Some idiot here said we should support Chafee because he is "our Zell Miller". Zell spoke at the convention and endorsed Bush and they want to compare Chafee's dinky winky protest vote to Miller's ringing endorsement of Bush? No wonder...
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 04:30 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Sure, Watergate was a crime

though how much of a crime it really was- a bunch of bunglers caught trying to plant a completely unimportant bug on a phone line, some people 'conspiring' about it- is somewhat less important than the political part, which was a violation of trust in general and a breach of the inofficial rules of the political game then in particular.

FDR's undeclared war...U.S. military ships escorted British convoys and committed acts of war against German U-boats during 1941, despite there being no military alliance or German act of war against innocent or military American ships. Roosevelt claimed it was done because the materiele transported on the British ships was 'still American property'. Actually it was done because the British didn't have enough convoy escorts. A German U-boat torpedoed and sank the U.S.S. Reuben James, with a loss of over a hundred American lives, when it pursued and depth charged her in the fall of 1941. Neither government said anything about the matter- the German sub officers probably didn't know it was an American destroyer in the first place and the U.S. Navy wasn't in a hurry to explain any of it all either. Look at Lend-Lease for the extent of the 'tacit' cooperation with Britain. As for FDR's steel and oil embargo of Japan, there is some thought that it was done with the British colonies in Asia in mind as well as American interests in the Pacific, and no one quite knows where to classify the embargo in its intended degree of hostility shown Japan. The Japanese saw it as a provocation to war, FDR's people probably knew they were coming very close to war with Japan by it.

Clinton's Presidency saw three 'backlashes'. 1993/94/95 was the Gingrich Revolution- 1995 was pretty much a McCarthy Era in miniature, where the people who are sorta wild and disgusting lashed out at the more cosmopolitan. 1998/99 was the Lewinsky Scandal, which was really an argument about Betty Friedan feminism- Republicans were arguing it all to be adultery, then sexual harassment/coercion, then it was all about what a disgusting person Monica Lewinsky was (anti-Semitic stereotypes and all), then it was finally about 'why doesn't Hillary divorce him'- male chauvinism (oops, 'traditional morality') from one end to the other. The final 'backlash' was George Dubya's peaking in popularity against Al Gore in the summer of 2000, which was all about 'morality' and low taxes with an undertone of racism (i.e. black Christians and the black poor tolerating less than orthodox sexual behavior in the slums, Latino people having 'too many' children to 'take care of and educate them' in places such as Texas, Affirmative Action 'going too far')- it was a going back to the original political race arguments of the Civil Rights Era, which took place mostly during the late Fifties.

Republican moderates- no, I wouldn't hold my breath about the politicians per se. It's the 5-8% of the swing voters that lean Republican, that are persuaded to vote Republican on flimsy but not absurd grounds, that matter. The basic argument that swayed them this November was some vague idea about Republicans being better at rough-stuff foreign policy, somehow being a known quantity. Kerry's problem ultimately was that the Pentagon went about propping up all the Republican cant about Iraq being somehow, by some very low standard, a winnable situation- and he couldn't break through the amount of denial involved with this set of voters, it reestablished itself after the debates via massive propaganda. (Kerry blames the bin Laden tape of that weekend for a lot of the margin.)

Basically, disintegration of Iraq and the 'Coalition' can be used to persuade these 5-8% to let go of this, their last internal bias favoring Republicans. (We know from polling that they agree well enough with Democratic positions on domestic issues for that not to be the obstacle.)

Truth is, if you've followed the Social Security business, that Republican politicians are actually afraid of the consequences of what they're tasked to do and don't inherently believe much or any of any domestic policy positions of their party- they were cynical in years past, but at this point they're appeased personally and honestly don't consider any of the stuff pretended to now real. (What do they care about gay marriage? Nothing!) Their role is to hand off money and power to their contributors, appease their voters, and give their superiors- Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld- what they demand. There's no there there, they're the dog that caught the car now.

When that 5-8% of voters is solidly gone, gone over to Democrats because the D's have gotten their act together and R's have no irrational button to push with them, that's when the game changes. Of course the moderate Republicans in the U.S. Senate think the Bush Administration is an out-of-control disaster: every sensible person does. Of course none of this can continue, depending of course on whether some irrational reactionary resentment remains to be dug up and exploited among Christian Rightists or some other demographic. But once all the irrational bias for Republicans is used up and they have to compete with Democrats on rational footing, the Democrats own the swing voters on domestic policy. The Republican game is essentially up when the foreign policy game in the Middle East collapses- after that, Democrats just have so much Republican corruption to run against and so much post-Republican disillusionment to exploit. (Okay, Democrats also need a visible set of credible leaders, but that's not a substantial obstacle at this point.) That is all the incentive a lot of the moderate R politicos need to distance themselves from the hard core and the Bushies- their swing voters going AWOL on them, the Bushies becoming politically fatal to be linked with, selfpreservation and deflecting voter anger onto others is Rule 1.

I dunno, I see the moderate Republican Senators here in New England a fair amount, and everything they say and most of what they do suggests that they think the game played since the late Eighties is pretty much in its final stretch. Of course they don't know what to do, concretely- but they do know that their electorate is moving to views unthinkable in 1990, that they're going to have to compete on a level playing field in the near future, and that the present extreme incarnation of the Republican Party has only so much political life left in its people, electorate, and ideas. Both New Hampshire Senators did pretty remarkable left turns during 2003/4 after running as far Right as New Englanders can bear before that- they're suddenly centrists now, with one or both (I don't remember which) voting against the FMA, both talking about federal deficits being a problem and not cutting social spending drastically, all this 'religious' politicking in Washington being wrong...I never thought they had it in them, they both seemed such perfect Republican blockheads in the '00 and '02 elections. It turns out that they're actually politicians with a pretty sharp sense of their constituents, of course, and perfectly aware that their nonreligious paleoconservative base is starting to go into its demographic dieout. I think I'm seeing a bit of the like in Arlen Spector's behavior, in fact in more and more of the Republican politicians mostly in the swing states of '04. They're starting to percieve real risk to themselves and Democratic strength building




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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. nixon was a saint compared to bush. And apparently so was hitler
from the looks of things to come.
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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
16. I guess the whole GENOCIDE thing isn't sitting well with those iraqis, eh?
Guess they hadn't taken HUMANS with brains, hearts, families and souls into that equation.

Guess the bush regime doesn't know anything about 100,000 people willing to die for their families and country, instead of greed and riches...

Ooops.
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Sincity Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
21. I seriously worry
that this administration is going to start building camps to put Americans in who don't quite fit the desired mold. I am looking into Canada.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Hi Sincity!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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onecitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
23. Ya reckon?
:-)
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anarchy1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 04:53 AM
Response to Original message
29. You made me laugh, good job.. "Bush's excellent adventure.."
You know there are rules around here about being to satirical and making people laugh when they are on their keyboards. Too much money has been spent replacing them over such as the above.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 05:12 AM
Response to Original message
31. And the rightwingnut Americans wonder duhhhhh why do they hate us???
It ain't for our "freedoms", morans.

It's because we're the biggest dirtiest most corrupt terrorists on the planet.
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catmandu57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-05 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
33. Well, bush's* folly never was wrapped to tight
to begin with. What is so amazing to me is that it's still going on, I overestimated the american people, I thought surely they would'nt allow another clusterfuck to happen.
Just as I underestimated the ability of these cretins to get as far as they have. A thing that won't happen again, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
Isn't that the way it's supposed to go georgie?
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