If they haven't gotten it by now, will they ever?

[Dawgs]

Iraq might be the biggest fucking mess of a war in American History, and half of America still does not blame Bush for this disaster. The fact that they think Bush kicks ass against terrorists is all they need to know.

I'm afraid that another terrorist attack might be the only thing that will wake some of these people up to what is really going on. They choose to ignore the hatred toward the US, as they pretend everything in their world is just fine.

As long as they keep their jobs and there are no more terrorist attacks, Bush can get away with anything.

It's sad, but I think it's true.

[stpalm]

1. sadly, yes

Bush is gunna kill the irakkis cuz they did 9/11

[Nimrod]

2. I don't think anything will do it

If there's another "terrorist" attack, it'll just serve as another rallying cry. It did last time, so there's no reason why it wouldn't happen again. Anything else bad that happens will be Clinton's fault.

[devinsgram]

3. I have said that for a long time

The people of this country that voted for the village idiot will not be made aware of anything till it happens to them directly, then it will hit the fan. So to all those who let this happen, go and forge ahead, but remember that what you sow, you shall reap.

[slor]

4. I do not believe...

even another attack will convince the die-hard among the repukes, but we are clearly seeing the erosion of support for this Iraq blunder already. When civil war breaks out, and I hope it does NOT, but it looks like the fools in this administration will see it to that conclusion, you will see a huge leap in the numbers to pull the troops out. At that time, the only reasonable conclusion to offer to the world, for the whole mess, will be a trial along the lines of the Nuremberg trials. Yes, there will be widespread opposition to this, and it is the main reason the rethugs did what they did to win, but it must come to fruition before we can salvage America's standing in the world.

[Dawgs]

6. You are right...

The die-hard repukes won't be convinced, but many dems and indys will be forced to pay attention. We are already starting to see some of this with the Iraq war.

Your best point is on America's standing in the world. This problem alone should scare Americans more than anything. If Bush tries to start another war we will have NO support. If we get hit by another terrorist attack, many around the world will say "that's what you get for voting for Bush".

I'm not sure Bush will ever get blamed for anything(impeachment, trials), but the public might finally realize all of the bad things this man is doing or has done.

I personally think he is moron for taking on Social Security.

[Nimrod]

8. You are VERY right

I firmly believe that the "Us vs. Them" Freedom-Fries movement was a calculated effort to turn Americans against the rest of the world. It's interesting - one day we're told that we're hated by the rest of the world, in danger, and terribly vulnerable; and the next day we're glorifying our superiority and virtual "master race" status.

Implanting these ideas in the collective American psyche keeps us from rising up en masse. No matter what our leaders do, we'll justify it whether by calling it "Freedom on the march" or "Defense of the homeland". If some union of powers DOES try to knock us off our pedestal, we'll defend to the death those who brought it all on us.

Just look at how many people are buying the whole "The UN is evil" propaganda. That's just a tiny part of the whole effort.

[BlueManDude]

5. A RW friend mine told me last week that he'd changed his mind

He told me he now belives we need to get out of Iraq as fast as possible. However, as usual he absolved Bush of all blame for the clusterfuck. Instead he blamed the Iraqi people whom he said are cowards who are afraid to "step up" and embrace democracy. I just nodded my head. We've had quite a few heated arguments and I'm through trying to change his irrational way of thinking on matters political.

[Dawgs]

7. Amazing...

I think this is going to be the new RW talking point... 'It's the Iraqi's people fault that the war is not going well'. It's just like putting a quilt ribbon on your car. Put the blame on someone else(Dems, Clinton, Iraqis, Rumsfeld), but never on Bush.

Fortunately, I think your friend is part of the extreme RW whose mind won't be changed. It's the uninformed moderates that we may still be able to sway.

Unfortunately, we are still dealing with the American media.

[BlueManDude]

9. He's still blaming Kerry for the lack of "body armour"

never mind the fact that john kerry has not been, is not currently, and never will be president of the united states.

[slor]

10. Let them have it...

they have used it for years, and this is why they are incapable of fixing the problems we face, or busily getting into new problems, with such catastrophically successful results, that are really becoming painfully familiar. They cannot fix what they will not understand. We just need to make sure the others see it, instead of chalking it up to either Clinton's dick or God's will!

[neebob]

11. I don't think so

Lately I've been having successful conversations with my mother, a serious Mormon wingnut, and I only feel they're successful because they don't infuriate me. I think that's because I just finally realized she really is serious and not just brainwashed - or if she is, it's irreversible - and she's never going to change her mind. I find her views no less horrifying or ridiculous.

Maybe I've just accepted the fact that my parents were gullible and, um, not very advanced. It's not something I really noticed or gave much thought to until a few years ago. My mom and I never talked about politics and religion until my dad died.

He was more of a thinker than my mom, but his behavior killed any desire I might have had to talk to him, so I can only guess what his deal was. I think the right-wing and Mormon ideologies fed his manly ego and his need to control things around him. He bought the Church line about participating and paying tithing bringing prosperity.

My mom says she needs a reason to be here. I think she's unhappy with the way her life turned out, and believing that eveything's all fucked up on purpose and we're all here to pass some big impossible test and there's another chance to set things right and be happy helps her feel better about it.

She believes everything George Bush and the corporate tools who prop him up say because, on the surface, their lies agree with everything she's ever been taught and apparently never questioned. And that includes everything about America being good and infallible and superior that she learned as a child during World War II.

The Mormon church isn't that different from other churches, in my opinion - especially the more authoritarian ones. Its propaganda works just as well with that of the government to create an impenetrable wall of denial.

Otherwise, I seem to exist in a bubble, surrounded by highly educated, proper liberals. The very few conservatives in my space are more traditional and very quiet because they know they're massively outnumbered. If it weren't for my parents, I'd have a hard time believing wingnuts exist, much less understanding them.

But they're out there, obviously, and I wouldn't expect many of them to change their minds without first having their worlds shattered. And I don't necessarily mean by a terrorist attack, but by something like the government collapsing or the Bush Administration revealing itself to be a fascist dictatorship in a way that's obvious to everyone and affects them personally.

People who honestly believe a bunch of inferior, freedom-hating brown people are out to destroy their way of life aren't likely to have sudden, unprovoked epiphanies.

[Hoping4Change]

13. Your post is very interesting on several levels.

Have you always been at odds with your parents religious/political viewpoints?

[neebob]

14. I was always at odds with my dad

though not necessarily because of politics or religion. Like I said, I never really thought about it until a few years ago. I just sort of grew up and blew off the church and didn't pay much attention to politics until about 2000, when I had a serious personal misfortune that led to a complete rethink of who I am and why (at 40) and included a kind of political awakening, and the final stages of that coincided with my dad's death in 2003. Then I shared some things with my mom and we really got into it.

It's hard to explain without writing another big essay. Suffice it to say I've thoroughly questioned everything I was taught. :)

[Hoping4Change]

15. I was struck while reading your post how inaccessible the

"fundamentalist" mindset is even to people like yourself who are close to them. I wonder if the difficulty is that fundies are like people who always opt for the Dinner for One, Two, Three etc option from Chinese restaurants - no A La Carte for them.

Could it be that fundies of any sort want to maintain an illusion that other than the initial choice to place an order with their preferred God franchise to deliver salvation no other personal choice was made? The Price Fixee Menu all the way.

[neebob]

19. Yes, I think there's an element of removing choices

and absolving them of responsibility, despite all their B.S. about personal responsibility. Really, though, I think it's more about believing what they want to believe. That's true of everyone to some degree, I think - fundamentalist or not.

My personal misfortune was in large part a result of my believing what I wanted to believe.

A couple of my co-workers - one an extreme lefty like me, the other one of the quiet conservatives - have parents who make mine look like pinkos. The lefty actually calls her parents fundamentalists. I forget what religion they are - Southern Baptist? They believe in the rapture. She can quote the Bible, chapter and verse. I can't even imagine what that would be like.

The conservative was raised by Jehovah's Witnesses. Neither the Witnesses nor the Mormons have an equivalent of the rapture.

[hansolsen]

12. Wrong. Another terrorist attack will just make the Red States madder, and

unleash even more military violence against the Muslim world. And against any "Liberals" who dare to suggest the U.S. might be wrong about anything.

[Dawgs]

17. Just because you say so hansolsen doesn't make it so...

"He's protecting us!!" is all they've got. Again, I'm not saying the extreme right will change, but there are many dems and indys that are in Bush's camp because they think he is protecting us.

[Nile]

16. Another terrorist attack will undoubtedly happen.

But it has not happened since when? The world has changed.

[neebob]

20. I don't think the world has changed

as much as it has just evolved over time, and everything that's happening now is the result of what came before. Cause and effect, actions and consequences.

[BadGimp]

18. one realization might shake things up a bit..

WHEN it becomes apparent to even the most ardent, flag waving, Bush BS consuming, true believer that Iraq has or is turning into another Iran (an Islamic Theocracy), then things will change.

Imageine the outrage among the military die hards who come to realize this was all predicted by the experts, but the Bushistas went in blinded by their own ideaology and zeal only to turn Iraq into a far greater threat to US and Mid East security and stability than it recently had ever been under Saddam.

Unless the media refuses to report the truth. Oh wait, never mind.