Some thoughts-last nights email (former friend who wants to nuke Iraq)

[Bouncy Ball]

(I put this at the end of last night's thread, but it is getting REALLY long, so I thought I would put this here instead.)

Part of the reason I posted that email is because I wanted EVERYONE here and any lurkers to see what kind of mindset is really going on in this country. I was amazed anyone here even thought she was kidding--I have HEARD this position before. Even at the beginning of the war. I used to get emails from my mother in law (before I blocked her, too) with jokes about turning Iraq into glass. With cartoon maps that had all of the Middle East missing.

This is, sadly, not an unusual attitude here. It's not universal among bush supporters, but it's prevalent enough to give the rest of us serious pause. As in, "oh my God, these motherfuckers have gone right over into SCARY!!!"

I work with them. I live next door to them.

That's why when I hear I should try to "understand" their mindset, try to reach out, try to change the message, whatever, I just think "WHAT THE FUCK, HOW?????" No they aren't all a lost cause, but my GOD. Just ten or twenty years ago, most people would have sucked in air and gotten huge scary eyes at the suggestion we just nuke another country off the planet. Now it's dinner table talk and email fodder.

The more moderate ones, the fence sitters, yes. They can be helped.

But the others? I've put in a lot of time working with them, talking to them, giving them information, links, FACTS. To absolutely NO avail.

It wasn't like this before 9/11. I hate to say that, but when they say "it changed everything" they mean it turned republicans into a bunch of scared shitless incredibly mean and hateful creatures overnight. The ingredients were probably already there and that just put them over the top.

When I was younger, my beef with republicans was a matter of an honest difference of opinions as to how the country should be run, what role government has in people's lives.

Now the difference is as wide as the Grand Canyon. Now the difference involves basic MORALS. The most angry I have ever seen a rightwinger was right after the election, when I looked very coldly at her and explained I could no longer find any basis for friendship with someone who would cast her vote for such an immoral administration. Her jaw hit the ground, because remember, THEY think they have the moral high ground, but it is quite the opposite. They are in the sewer as far as morals go. And I just can't go down there with them. Some simply will NOT come up into the light of day.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bouncy Ball]

2. What the HELL are you talking about?

Did you not even READ what I wrote?

You are actually arguing we should just NUKE all those cities?

Ok, seriously, GET OFF MY PLANET. NOW.

Oh and on edit, I've hit alert on your post. I doubt DU wants any posts on this site advocating the nuking of all of those cities.

Oh my God.

[King Coal]

5. No NO NO

I didn't write that. The sailor in San Diego did. He posted it on a board I frequent.

[Bouncy Ball]

6. Oh geez

I'm so sorry!

ACK! I'm sorry I hit alert!

Was the entire thing a quote? Please edit to make more clear!

Put an introductory line about this is from another board and then use quotation marks around the whole thing. You seriously freaked me out, I am sorry I jumped the gun on the alert thing!

[King Coal]

11. Sorry. As soon as I posted it, I was afraid I hadn't been clear enough.

[Bouncy Ball]

14. I sent a message to mods

telling them to disregard the alert, that you didn't write it and you had edited it to reflect that. Again, my apologies.

[seabeyond]

32. bah hahahah

that was a funny misunderstanding

[leftofthedial]

10. oops

maybe use quotations next time

[devilgrrl]

7. A Moran for Lifer?

Sounds like it! Ciao, ciao, stronzo!

[devilgrrl]

9. Mi dispiace!

D'oh!

[Sparkly]

8. Edited: Nukes won't win the "war on terror?"

Does (that person) realize these organizations have operatives all over the world? Should we nuke Germany, too? This is NOT a 'war' that can be won with bombs. It cannot be won by attacking states. It cannot be won by abolishing all credibility the US ever had and turning our country into a force of terror worldwide.

I can't believe anyone could even suggest such a thing.

Edited: Saw your edit after I posted this. I thought it was your writing.

[Bouncy Ball]

12. He was quoting someone from another board

it just wasn't clear at first. It's not what King Coal is saying.

[Sparkly]

Got it now -- saw the edit after I posted.

Jaw is off the floor now.

[okieinpain]

42. funny thing is you nuke iraq, and oil will go through the roof. guess

who would have the last laugh.

[Bunny]

13. How can there be "mutual" destruction?

When most of the countries you cited do not have nukes? So, if they kill a couple hundred of our folks, it's okay if we kill a couple hundred thousand of theirs? How in God's name do you figure that? And if we did this, do you honestly think that WON'T breed other, newer terrorists?

Honest to God. :eyes:

On edit: sorry, but I didn't realize you were quoting someone else.

[gollygee]

16. self deleted

Sorry - I see you were quoting someone.

[Bouncy Ball]

17. Guys

King Coal didn't write that, he is quoting from another board. He has edited it to reflect that. It wasn't that clear at first, read a bit upthread.

[Jose Diablo]

24. I doubt this would work

if the USA announce a MAD plan with Islamic terrorists there would be some anti-islam fanatics flying a false flag of Islam to get us to nuke their enemies by doing a terrorist act and claiming they were Islamics.

MAD won't work.

Besides, its not clear to me that 9-11 was done by the 'culture' of Islam. The ones I have met have been pretty peaceful. Are you sure this so called 'culture' of Islam that promotes violence against the west is not actually some marginalised fundamentalist nuts, just like our very own fundamentalist nuts in Christianity on the far right.

As for saving lives and money by using nukes, do you really believe the rest of the world would just sit back and let the USA nuke a big part of the world? I doubt it. In truth I think we could expect the rest of the world to nuke every city in our country as a result. The world would have to, because they would know, they could be next.

As for saving lives, just leave Iraq. We did it before with Vietnam, we will do it this time too. We are gonna lose this one.

Edit: Dang King Coal, you edited while I was writing this post.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fob]

30. KC, any way to post this morans -email address?

Question 1: Can you, MoranSailor, provide evidence of the Cold War being Won? (and photos of the Berlin Wall coming down don't count) Be sure to include information that supports your thesis that it was SPECIFICALLY the "Theory of Mutual Destruction" that was the deciding factor.
Follow up to Q1: Can you MoranSailor provide evidence of WHO won the Cold War?

2nd Follow up Q1: Since there were weapons that could assure mutual destruction pointed at the respective Superpowers for many, many years, explain why the threat of MAD (mutual assured destruction) took so long to be the decisive factor.

Q2: The fundametalist faction of Islam would welcome a chance for the end of the world, just as our neo-con-christo-fascist-fundamentalist we have here would. Explain then how this critical difference affects your use of the same solution (MAD) to a different problem.

Q3: Explain the geological/meteorlogical effects of implementing you "plan"

Q4: After implementing your "plan", predict how many of the current moderate muslims would instantly convert to hardcore positions. Would this amount be less/same/more than number of hardcore fundamentalists eradicated?


Q5: Predict number of innocent lives(aka collateral damage) your "plan" will produce.

Q6: Expalin how your first sentence below is conflicted by your subsequent sentence.

"I am not anti-islam."

"Your religion is your choice...and they are all pretty much the same. However, if you cower and fight from your temples or mosques, standby to have them blown to pieces...either one by one... or all at once under the blast of a 6 megaton hydrogen bomb."

Q7: Instead of "imagin(ing) the amount of time, money, and blood we would save", please show there would be any real savings of anything in ANY of those categories.

Q8: You were able to negate the need for using any form of common sense by painting such a stance as "liberal" in nature. Please list any/all right-wing hate radio talk show hosts from whence you lifted that comment from.

Q9: How do you live with yourself? Please explain in detail.

[bryant69]

3. The Question is how many have gone beyond help?

I mean if you are looking at the American public what percentage of Americans are not worth arguing with? What percentage of the Republican Party?

This question has serious consequences; it dictates our strategies. Like you say, at times people (including myself) will be critical of something someone says on the grounds that it will offend a lot of people. One response is that "We aren't here to please Free Republic (or Fox News, or the Mainstream Media). They are always going to hate us, so why shouldn't we say whatever we want?" If there really aren't many people in the middle ground, this is a good argument. If most people have decided what side they are on, we should focus on keeping the bases energy up.

On the other hand if there are a lot of people in the middle, well than that argument isn't the best.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Bouncy Ball]

4. The thing is,

I doubt there are too many left in the middle.

[King Coal]

15. There is polarity, because of Rush Limbaugh and his ilk.

[Bouncy Ball]

18. Yep.

They've done more to polarize this counry than anything or anyone else.

You know how it goes on a smaller scale--you have a group of people that you work with and maybe there are some basic disagreements, and maybe things flare up every now and then, but on the whole, most of you get along ok.

Then a new person gets hired. He immediately begins to loudly, openly criticize one group of the employees. The other group starts to grumble and say "Yeah! Hey, he's RIGHT!" and they get more and more and more worked up. So the other side gets freaked out and the two sides get pushed further and further apart until it's an all out war.

In my day we called those people "shit-stirrers" because they just seem to love to stir the shit pot and get people all riled up at each other.

That's all those right wing talking heads are: shit-stirrers.

[King Coal]

19. What a mess I've made of my life!

I am really sorry for not being clear that I was quoting the moran.

:silly:

[seabeyond]

33. lol lol lol and now that it is all said in done

reading this morning, gotta say, i had a giggle. you are the cutest

[brindis_desala]

20. I hold the MSM primarily responsible for this mess.

Jefferson said he would rather have a press and no government than a government with no press. We are seeing the fruits of what happens when the news is 24/7 propaganda. People like that ignoramus above have no knowledge of our government's complicity because they do not read and TV news is totally specious. When you consider the awesome destructive power of the U.S. military to see such massive ignorance being perpetuated is beyond dangerous it is suicidal.

[AmandaRuth]

21. I'm with you, bouncy

I can't tell you how many times I have listened to discussion on Iraq and within 30 seconds someone will just say drop a nuke on 'em. Like it is a viable suggestion. :scared: :scared:

[King Coal]

23. Yeah, and they are so clever.

"Nuke 'em and let God sort 'em out."

I am so sick of hearing that.

[beam me up scottie]

22. OK. Pretend the dark side wins and the Middle East gets nuked.

How do these dumb assholes plan on getting all that oil our kids just died for?

[Bouncy Ball]

26. Exactly.

And our troops would NOT necessarily be out of harm's way if they were anywhere in the vicinity. We would basically have to pull out ALL ground troops and operations, and then we'd nuke those 14 military bases we are building there, right?

I doubt even bushco would be stupid enough to pull that, but I think it is very telling that so many would so casually talk of nuking another part of the world.

And chilling.

[bloom]

25. I was noticing yesterday - the threads from 9/11

And it was all there.

People thinking we must be blind and support Bush*. People ready to kick ass ( or something). Republicans blaming the Dems - blaming Clinton.

I've been reading Zinn's People's History. A lot of us thought that people/civilization has been evolving. Maybe that is the delusion. Americans murdered and tortured the natives, the slaves, we nuked Japan and there has been Vietnam, El Salvador, many other places and now Iraq.

I will not believe what they believe. And hopefully we can find some way to get ethical people in charge, again. Ethical people are not winning. And unfortunately - have not been winning for a long time.

[Bouncy Ball]

27. Very good post.

Sadly, I think you are right.

And I don't think we are evolving. That reminds me of a sign I saw at the repuke convention protest in NYC: "EVOLVE ALREADY!!!"

[msmcghee]

29. Thanks for posting your thoughts on this.

It is something we all will have to face sooner or later. The world did change on 9/11/. Actually that just created the opportunity for the changes that followed. Those changes occurred because Bush saw 9/11 as an opportunity to consolidate his power by turning our grief into anger against Islam and brown skinned Middle-easterners.

Imagine if he had seen it instead as an opportunity to show the world how to turn away from violence and become a better place - something that I suspect Clinton would have done, while militarily neutralizing the al Quada perpetrators of 9/11.

But that ghoul is out of the bottle and we now live in a country very similar to pre-war Germany in the thirties as far as public sentiment toward the world and our place in it.

[Nimrod]

31. One thing this administration is good at

Catalyzing hatred of the outsider. ANY outsider. Iraq, France, the UN, liberals, queers, whatever. These people nurture hate and encourage it to grow wherever they can, and hate is very profitable to the one who is willing to exploit it.

[anarchy1999]

34. Good morning! You say it all so well.

I gave "Worse than Watergate" to my brother for Christmas. Sitting at the table he returned it to me. He said he would not read it, I should take my gift back, otherwise, it would wind up in the "Salvation Army" pile he and his wife love to give to. What would you do? I calmly took the book back.

I digress. My brother's wife worked for Halliburton, ney, Dresser, before Halliburton took over. She was next to the top in corp "human relations" dept, traveled the world, "helping". Now she just is a "contract arbitrour".

Oh and hey, they are Methodists. She was/is Catholic (St Rita's), my brother not, so they found a happy medium in Plano with enough formality to make it okay. God Bless America and right on.

Truly, if you don't live in this area of hell, you have no idea.

Welcome to our very own "civil" war.

[burn the bush]

35. I had the same problem with my best friends

At first i just incredulously shouted her words back to her. You could tell that she did see how stupid they sounded, yet she stood by them. We almost got into an argument and I had to consider if I could be friends of these people.
Then I remembered that I had felt that way (sorta) before I became "enlightened". So, while you educate your friends, try to remember that they are reacting out of fear, deep fear. Fear that has been planted and reinforced by our govt for years. You can't just undo all that with a snap of the fingers.
They are so afraid of war on our own land, that they are willing to let our govt do whatever it needs to do, to prevent it. Remember, they have been brainwashed more or less, so don't just throw them away. Enlighten them with evidence. Send them a new email everyday with a story of the crap that this admin has done. They may not read them but they will see the headlines. A little at a time, it will seep in.

[yardwork]

36. I dropped a friend because he said the same thing last spring

I knew he was a lifelong Republican. I knew he was conservative. We joked for years that we cancelled one another's votes in every election.

When he said that we should nuke the middle east that was it for me. I'm polite to him. He's going through a difficult time because he just got laid off, and I've been kind to him. (He sees no connection between the right-wing machine he supports and his own poor treatment at the hands of a corporation.)

He is not my friend anymore, though. I'll never joke with him again.

[greendog]

37. Actually, this goes back to Hiroshima...

Part of our national myth is that the nuking of non-combatants in Japan "saved lives" and ended the war sooner (thus, a wonderful thing). This myth persists despite the fact that the Japanese were already negotiating for surrender and that the bombings extinguished more human life instantaneously than at any other time in human history.

The horrific reality of this is something most Americans refuse to accept.

Because of this myth a lot of Americans believe the massive wholesale slaughter of their fellow humans to be a legitimate tool in America's (we're the good guys) quest for peace in the world.

Sadly, your Republican acquaintances aren't alone in this belief. This last summer, I had a conversation with a close friend (a moderate Democrat) who expressed the same opinions. He was quite passionate about it and our exchange became pretty heated. We're still friends, but it did put a pretty big strain on our friendship.

I'm not sure what the answer is but I do think we need to realize that it isn't necessarily a Republican/Democrat thing...it's the result of a powerful myth that has persisted in American culture since the bombing of Hiroshima. The myth has been promoted, not just by right-wing ideologues but by both Democrats and Republicans and by our mainstream media for decades.

[Fifth of Five]

39. I have a question...

I was taught in college that the nuclear option in WWII was used to halt the probable invasion of Japan by the USSR - In other words - bring Japan to the table quickly to prevent our "ally" from gaining a foothold in Japan as they had done in Eastern Europe.

What's the current thinking on that theory? Does it hold water based on the facts? If so, it seems like a terrible, self-serving, ethno-centric policy to be willing to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of lives (dead, injured, etc) for a purely political purpose.

[greendog]

40. The USSR had already made plans...

...to join the allied effort. The bombing of Hiroshima occurred just a couple of weeks before (the date) they had promised to assist us. I think the concern wasn't that they'd invade but that they'd be at the table after Japans defeat and expect "part" of Japan in exchange for their participation.

I've also read that some believe the USSR's announcement that they were joining the effort was what drove Japan to the table, not the bombing. I don't know if that's true but but it does seem likely.

If you are Japan and are faced with certain defeat would you rather accept defeat and become a remote military/economic satellite to the USA or risk being partitioned like Germany with part of your country absorbed into the USSR?

[Fifth of Five]

41. Thanks,

that makes sense.

[neweurope]

38. I deeply respect you, Bouncy Ball , for your moderate and

thoughtful reply to this woman. I could not have answered like this... And I deeply respect all DUers who are working for a better USA. But my God, I am getting ever more afraid. Since they announced they wanted to invade Iraq I've been afraid that it might turn into a World War. And what we're hearing of the US lately certainly doesn't diminish this fear. Being a German I know what brainwashing and appealing to the dark side in humans can do...

:scared:

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Remember Fallujah!