Wow, looks like we suburbanites are the new Southerners of DU!

[Walt Starr]

LOL, I've seen so many put-downs of suburban living here today!

I really don't give a damn if it pisses anybody else off, I live in a suburb of Chicago. We bought our brand new 1500 sq ft house in 2003 for less money than a 600 sq. ft. condo in Chicago costs. We are more energy efficient in this house than any condo in the city. We have a nice lot where we can garden. We own a single vehicle, which is a Saturn VUE SUV. The only restaurant options available to us are Applebees, TGIF, and other similar fair. This is the land of big box stores.

In the next year, we'd like to upgrade to a larger house. We are currently DINKs but are looking to adopt in the next 18 months or so. We will probably get a bigger SUV because we feel safer since 50% of the vehicles on the road are larger than ours.

And if you don't like it, TOO DAMN BAD. We're the ones working for our money, possessions, and lifestyle, NOT YOU!

[mark414]

1. bomb the suburbs

by william upski wimsatt

it's a good book, check it out. not as inflammatory as the title might make you believe.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

2. We're the ones working for our money

isnt that what republicans say to justify lower taxes on the rich?

[Walt Starr]

4. Last I checked, China and Cuba were still Communist

If you want a communist form of government, there's two options for you.

Don't even think about telling me how I can and cannot spend my money!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

10. well if you dont want progressives to criticize you

dont buy suv's...

[Walt Starr]

13. Fuck that, I'll buy any damn SUV I want

I get better mileage in my Saturn VUE than most cars on the road, especially older cars, so don't use that as an excuse to beat me over the head.

If people keep talking this kind of shit around here, I'm tempted to make my next vehicla a Hummer!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

16. AND i will point that you sound just like a republican when you say that

many joys of a free country

[Walt Starr]

25. And trying to get me to live in lockstep with YOUR lifestyle

sounds EVEN MORE Republican to me.

[arcane1]

29. gas-wasting SUV's are not a lifestyle

they are a personal choice of purchase

[Walt Starr]

33. Well since my SUV gets better gas mileage than most cars

your argument does not apply to me.

[el_gato]

46. what is more important is the amount of time you spend on the road

if you work in the suburbs then what it would be better to live there than in the city

[Walt Starr]

56. Not much at all

Daily trips from my home to the train station, then back again in the evening. Stops along the way home for things we need to pick up. I take the train into the city daily.

We live less than seven miles from the train station. We actually spend less time in our vehicle than we did while living in the city!

[arcane1]

50. um ok

if you say so

[el_gato]

32. You are welcome to go to Iraq and bring back some oil

:evilgrin:

[Walt Starr]

35. I already served my time in the military

more than two decades ago.

I'm too old to go back in now. They won't have me.

[el_gato]

39. I didn't say join the military I just said go pick up some oil

and bring me back a souvenir (sic?)

[Walt Starr]

42. Sorry, not going to Iraq

I protested that venture.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

37. i am not trying to get you to live one way or the other

however one is allowed to point out that someone elses lifestyle is environmentally unfriendly

[Walt Starr]

51. Your lifestyle is probably more environmentally unfriendly than mine

I do not use much gasoline at all. My house is more energy efficient than most homes in the country. I use public transportation for the daily commute into the city.

I produce more recycling for pickup that I do trash by at least three pounds to every one.

So don't go all bullshitty on suburbanites, most of us are more environmentally friendly than most environmental activists!

[papau]

21. So from Garfield Blvd to which suburb? North to Waukegan - or

south to Joliet

Or West tp Peoria

or East to Gary

or someplace in between?

[Walt Starr]

24. Aurora

Out in the sticks.

Four years ago, my subdivision was a cornfield

[papau]

38. I started out with chicken farm and cornfield nearby- and now it's all

downtown Waukegan!

Left there 40 years ago, but in the 20 plus years before that - like when I was young - the farms just disappeared.

Heck, Gurnee is urban now! Rt 41 was ALL farms in my (younger) day!

But I am impressed if you are commutting into Chicago - that is a hike!

[Walt Starr]

59. It's not bad at all. during rush hour there are express trains

only stops being the downtown Aurora station, Route 59 (my station) and Naperville. Going back in the evening the only stops are Naperville and Route 59.

Total time on the train is 39 minutes for me each way.

[tx_dem41]

5. No, its what all hard-working people who are taking care of themselves..

say. Its not an ideological statement.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

19. i work hard adn take care of myself

and if someone pointed out a better way to be environmentally friendly i would try to adopt it instead of pretending that i am the be all and end all of the world

[Walt Starr]

27. I'd say you are still pretending

to be the be all and end all of the world.

:eyes:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

31. i am not....

all i am saying is that progressives have an environmental agenda...and if you are against it...you will be criticized...thats no reason to whine

[Walt Starr]

40. Who the fuck said I was against it?

I probably use less energy in my house than you do wherever the fuck you live because my new home is extremely energy efficient!

My next house will have photovoltaics installed, so youy'll probably be buying energy from me!

My SUV gets better mileage than most cars on the road!

so don't go against me because my restaurant choices are limited! That's just fucked up white noise!

[K-W]

48. Why would you post a defence of extravegence.

And then when challenged go on and on about how you conserve?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

54. thats my point...i dont really care how you live your life

but threatening to buy hummers hardly makes me believe that one is environmentally friendly

[tx_dem41]

52. Huh? I'm confused....I missed where Walt said he was ...

against an environmental agenda?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

55. umm there was the threat to buy hummers and this

We will probably get a bigger SUV because we feel safer since 50% of the vehicles on the road are larger than ours.

And if you don't like it, TOO DAMN BAD. We're the ones working for our money, possessions, and lifestyle, NOT YOU!

[Walt Starr]

63. Yes, there are options larger than the Vue

that get about the same mileage.

:eyes:

Man, educate yourself! SUVs are getting more fuel efficient. The efficiency of the Vue is what sold us on it in the first place!

But assholes that get all self righteous about SUVs based soley on the look rather than the hard data piss me off! My SUV gets better mileage than most of the pieces of shit death traps I see on the road with Greenpeace stickers all over them!

[tx_dem41]

47. You read a lot more into "I work for my money" than I do. n/t

[tx_dem41]

3. Thank goodness I'm just a Southerner....and not a Southern suburbanite!

;-)

[Walt Starr]

6. Don't mess with Texas

Especially SUBURBAN Austin, Texas!

;)

[wicket]

"All my exes live in Texas"

:D

[txaslftist]

7. As a Southerner, I resemble that remark!

And a suburbanite, too. I don't care where you are from, ie-the South, the West, the East; the suburbs, the urbs or the sticks...

If you have democratic or progressive ideals, you vote democratic and you support democratic candidates, you are one of us.

We need to stop putting people in boxes.

[Walt Starr]

18. THANK YOU!

We need all of us!

[chicagojoe]

8. Moved from Chicago to Elgin 18 months ago.

I didn't know for sure if I would like it, but I'm getting there.
Got lucky with some cool neighbors. We like old houses and got a good deal on one needing no more work than paint, etc.
I think most of the the people giving the suburbs a bad rap are people who grew up there and "escaped" from mommy and daddy's world.
Now they're "cool" 'cause they moved to the city.
Lived in Chicago my whole life. Would have loved to stay, but the suburban urchins who became yuppies drove the prices up.

[SmokingJacket]

9. Feeling a little persecuted, eh?

It's America, where *everyone* gets to feel discriminated against and self-righteous! You can even feel self-righteous about your comfy lifestyle.

Land of the free -- ain't it great?

[sui generis]

11. there are urban areas in Texas?

:evilgrin:

Even Austin, with a night streetlife, mostly imports its revelers.

[bunkerbuster1]

12. As a Southern suburbanite

I'd say 90% of the criticism you see in here is valid.

[K-W]

14. So you grow your own food and built your own house and suv?

You must be very handy.

[madrchsod]

15. you lived in one of those condos too....

my son and his girlfriend "bought" a 600-800sq ft condo in oak park. yes the suburbs aren`t the greatest but the housing is alot cheaper. that`s one of the reasons i like where i am-one half hours from chicago. jump on the tollway for downtown and 38,64,and 72 to the suburbs.

[Walt Starr]

23. I use Metra all the way

Aurora is pretty far from the city and a Metra ride is 39 minutes express for me.

[Lex]

17. I think it's like the decision to shop at WalMart.

Some people have decided not to spend their money there--for good and valid reasons.

Some people don't care to have any ideological constraints placed on them about how they choose to spend their money.

Either way, what other people do doesn't affect how I choose to spend my money or conduct my affairs.

[MadHound]

20. And using up all of our resources at a disproportionately high rate

Thanks, truly appreciate that friend. Consuming greater gas for that false sense of vehicular security, while emitting more pollution. Driving more, consuming more.

It truly is a shame that people in this country don't have to pay the full replacement costs on what they consume, it would put a halt to this madness right quick, considering that it would pretty much double our energy and building costs, thus forcing people to reuse, renew and recycle. Instead, this throwaway culture of our is propped up so that we can continue to buy, buy, buy.

Have you ever thought about moving somewhere else other than Chicago. Where you're dollar goes further, and you aren't intimidated by the traffic.

[Walt Starr]

30. My Saturn gets better mileage than nmost cars on the road

so fuck that bullshit argument!

[K-W]

41. You are the one who jumped in to defend SUV's, dont back down now.

I thought you were proud of your ignoring everyone but yourself.

[Walt Starr]

45. You're damn right I defend SUVs

Not all SUVs are fucking Hummers! Not all SUVs get shitty mileage. If you educated yourself about the options out there, you'd know that!

[K-W]

53. Are you defending gas guzzling SUV's or not?

Everyone knows that some SUV's are better than others and that some arent all that bad. That is utterly besides the point. I hope it makes you feel clever to mislead people into thinking you are defending all SUV's and then jump down thier throat as if youd made it clear in your first post you were talking about fuel efficient SUV's.

[Walt Starr]

65. I made it clear in my first post

I drive a Saturn Vue.

:eyes:

[MadHound]

62. That may be Walt, but you're driving it further,

And you say that soon as you get a kid, you're going to get a bigger, better version, which will presumably eat up more gas. And, since SUV's are rated as trucks for EPA purposes, they get to spew more pollutants into the air, thus making life more of a living hell for you, me and everyone else. And quite frankly, looking at the Saturn VUE data sheets, you're not getting much better mileage than some cars, and quite a bit worse than others. You're running 23-25 in the city with the most efficient Saturn VUE model, and 28-30 on the highway. Hell, my Honda Civic's city mileage has you highway mileage beat all to hell.

Look Walt, I'm not into beating you and your lifestyle up simply because I'm being outrageously PC. What I'm trying to get across is that we all need to cut back on our footprints, even a tiny bit would help. Think before you purchase, ask yourself if you really do need that bigger SUV. Just because you've got the money to afford something doesn't mean that you should get it. After all, we're all paying the price for this "bigger is better" culture of ours, and any little bit that one can cut back on makes a difference.

So perhaps, next time go for a hybrid. Put some solar panels on your roof, they have a forty year life span, will be paid off in twenty, and add value to your house. And most of all, don't buy into our consumerist, "bigger is better" culture. For if we don't change that sort of mentality friend, we'll all be going down together.

[MsAnthropy]

22. Wah wah wah

My heart bleeds for you, it really does. Does that attitude come with the house: "I got mine, so fuck all the rest of you."

[arcane1]

26. I spent half my life in southern suburbs

and I'm sorry, if you are wasting fuel, shopping at chains, and gods-forbid WalMart, then you are not matching your actions to your values


the sad part is, it's nearly IMPOSSIBLE not to, in those environments :evilfrown:

[peacetalksforall]

28. Suburban Living = opportunity to educate your neighbor

[Taxloss]

34. "Come friendly bombs and fall on Slough!"

Come friendly bombs and fall on Slough!
It isn't fit for humans now,
There isn't grass to graze a cow.
Swarm over, Death!

Come, bombs and blow to smithereens
Those air -conditioned, bright canteens,
Tinned fruit, tinned meat, tinned milk, tinned beans,
Tinned minds, tinned breath.

Mess up the mess they call a town-
A house for ninety-seven down
And once a week a half a crown
For twenty years.

And get that man with double chin
Who'll always cheat and always win,
Who washes his repulsive skin
In women's tears:

And smash his desk of polished oak
And smash his hands so used to stroke
And stop his boring dirty joke
And make him yell.

But spare the bald young clerks who add
The profits of the stinking cad;
It's not their fault that they are mad,
They've tasted Hell.

It's not their fault they do not know
The birdsong from the radio,
It's not their fault they often go
To Maidenhead

And talk of sport and makes of cars
In various bogus-Tudor bars
And daren't look up and see the stars
But belch instead.

In labour-saving homes, with care
Their wives frizz out peroxide hair
And dry it in synthetic air
And paint their nails.

Come, friendly bombs and fall on Slough
To get it ready for the plough.
The cabbages are coming now;
The earth exhales.

-- John Betjeman, 1937

Hatred of suburbs isn't a new idea.

[TalkingDog]

36. A garden in the suburbs?

A lot of chemicals and pollution in the 'burbs. Lawn "products", weed killers...a lot of people don't understand that what they do and how they live affects their neighbors.

I mean if I went to one of those ChemLawn using neighbors and said: "You know, you ought to think about how what you are doing affects the people around you. ChemLawn products kill the soil by disrupting the ecosystem. It not only kills weeds, but also bugs, flora and fauna. They even tell you not to let dogs and kids on it for so many hours afterwards. I'd like to live in an envionment where I can raise my own food and let my kids run barefoot. How's about helping me out neighbor?"

If he was a person who actually cared about his impact on the world and his family he might consider it. Together we might be able to explore some other, less harmful options for a beautiful lawn.

On the other hand, if he was a person with the maturity and the mindset of a 12 year old who doesn't feel he should be required to be a contributing member of a community or of society as a whole he might just say: "I really don't give a damn if it pisses anybody else off.... if you don't like it, TOO DAMN BAD. We're the ones working for our money, possessions, and lifestyle, NOT YOU!"

[hippiegranny]

43. I just have to ask

What the hell prompted this nanny nanny boo boo post? With all the dead people in Indonesia (my next door neighbors were there and are still missing) this just seems so inane.

[HamdenRice]

44. As a confirmed urbanite, I can say you are wrong on some points...

You wrote:

And if you don't like it, TOO DAMN BAD. We're the ones working for our money, possessions, and lifestyle, NOT YOU!

Well, actually, assuming we pay roughly the same federal taxes, I unfortunately am working to purchase a big part of your possessions and lifestyle. For example, because I use mass transit but you use a car to drive a lot more, part of my taxes go to highways that I don't use. I also have to bear to costs of externalities, like air pollution, that you create but I don't create.

Along with your neighbors, your suburban sprawl reduces the amount of open land that holds and "processes" water -- so we all have to pay for both additional flood control and water treatment that would not exist if you had not built a new house on "greenfields".

Because delivering electricity, water, natural gas and other utilities at a distance is more expensive than delivering it in cities, to the extent that prices for these energy sources are averaged, I have to subsidize the delivery of energy over long distances to suburban locations.

Because you have helped destroy habitat for wild animals, I have to suffer the loss of species diversity. Moreover, the state and federal environmental agencies will have to take costly action to protect other habitat and species because you have destroyed more than your share.

Your decision to live an energy wasteful lifestyle causes energy demand to rise and hence prices to rise -- even though I did not contribute to these wasteful decisions.

And because you can deduct the cost of mortgage interest from your federal taxes -- the biggest middle class welfare and tax expenditure program ever, for people who need it least -- my taxes are marginally higher.

Overall, welfare to the suburbs and suburbanites is one of the biggest wealth transfer programs in this economy.

So, fine, you made the decision to waste resources and leave the tab for us efficient urbanites to pick up. That's your decision. But don't go making false gloating statements about how you are working for and paying for your lifestyle. You aren't!

<edited>

[Liberal Veteran]

49. I guess I must have missed the horrendous oppression...

...faced by suburbanites.

Funny how many people use criticism or comment to wrap themselves in victimhood and claim how horribly oppressed they are.

Shit, good thing we got past all that petty oppression against blacks, gays, women, senior citizens, muslims, etc...such as killings, firings, passed up for promotions, laws passed to make them second-class citizens, and all that so we could focus on the major issues of how southerners and suburbanites and christians are so horribly, horribly oppressed in our country.

LOL.

[Kota]

57. I live in Sycamore, I thought Aurora had more choices than that.

[Ron Green]

58. People are afraid of the Lifestyle Police....

Perhaps more so on the Right than on the Left, but as Americans we've always had the "rugged individualist" streak.

However, it's not black or white, is it? The farther you want to live outside the mainstream, the more difficult some things become. It seems that what the suburban lifestyle has done over 60 years is changed the mainstream. And we can and should make policy that starts to shift it back:

Public transportation
Eco-communities
Economic incentives in urban areas
Family farm incentives

The list goes on, I'm sure. The open market will not do it; the market has brought us the suburbs, to our general peril, and only by public policy and tax structure can we reverse the trend.

[HamdenRice]

64. Agree with your sentiment, but not your analysis ...

You wrote:

The open market will not do it; the market has brought us the suburbs.

But the suburbs only exist because of one of the most massive subsidy/wealth transfer programs in American history. It may be true that all the worthy goals you list will take government intervention, but the mess we are in now is not a result of the "invisible hand" at all.

[Atman]

60. Walt Starr..the cranky old fart can finally yell "GET OFF MY LAWN!"

"Damn kids with their hippy music, walkin' all over my lawn! GET OUTTA THERE, YOU LITTLE FUCKING BRATS BEFORE I TAKE A SHOTGUN TO YOUR ASS!"

You're such a joy to read, Walt. Makes me realize how nice most real people actually are.

[GumboYaYa]

61. Don't complain about the war in Iraq anymore.

As long as you are sucking at the teet of big oil, you have no place complaining about the war in Iraq. This war is to preserve the lifestyle you are defending.

I thought the same way you did at one time (absent the suburban home must b/c I like living in the city) until I realized how I was part of the problem that created the need to go to war in Iraq.

Before you become entrenched in your defense of suburbia, I encourage you to read Jane Jacobs' "Death and Life of Great American Cities."

[Moderator]

66. Locking

This thread is divisive and has turned into a flamefest.