Why weren't the Swift Liars punished?

[ck4829]

Military records of one of Sen. John F. Kerry's most vocal critics, who has accused the Democratic presidential candidate of lying about his wartime record to win medals, contradict his own version of events.

In newspaper interviews and a best-selling book, Larry Thurlow, who commanded a Navy Swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has strongly disputed Kerry's claim that the Massachusetts Democrat's boat came under fire during a mission in Viet Cong-controlled territory on March 13, 1969. Kerry won a Bronze Star for his actions that day.

But Thurlow's military records, portions of which were released yesterday to The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information Act, contain several references to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla. Thurlow won his own Bronze Star that day, and the citation praises him for providing assistance to a damaged Swift boat "despite enemy bullets flying about him."

In a telephone interview after he attended a Swift Boat Veterans strategy session in an Arlington hotel, Thurlow said he lost his Bronze Star citation more than 20 years ago. He said he was unwilling to authorize release of his military records because he feared attempts by the Kerry campaign to discredit him and other anti-Kerry veterans.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13267-2004Aug18.html

[noamnety]

1. Their info didn't require verification

and neither they nor the tv execs who gave them airtime will be punished, because they weren't critical of King George.

(Personally, I hope Kerry sues their asses; there was some talk of that, but I don't know what came of it.)

[ROC]

3. Kerry won't sue. He never signed a records release either

[LynnTheDem]

19. Yes in fact, Kerry did sign a records release.

He, LIKE BUSH, did not sign a form that would authorize release of his MEDICAL records.

[blm]

30. Plus, the Navy would never turn over the records where Kerry's mission was

to ferry CIA operatives into Cambodia.

Christie Todd Whitman once said on the Daily Show that her husband spent some time with Kerry on a boat in Cambodia. Not many picked up on what she said. Her husband was never stationed with Kerry in the Navy. So, what was he doing with Kerry in Cambodia? Remember when the rightwing said Kerry lied about Cambodia because the US was never there?

[Red State Rebel]

33. He did not sign a form 180

which would release all of his records. The Navy even confirmed all of his records were not released.

I have had to listen to my repub sister about this since the campaigns began. Try as I might, I have not been able to call her a liar.

[LynnTheDem]

36. bush also did not sign a Form-180

And in fact the US Navy confirmed that ALL of Kerry's records WERE released except for his medical records.

[MissBrooks]

20. Opinion vs. Fact

You can say anything you want as your opinion.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[The Backlash Cometh]

7. Even GB I knew how to stop certain bad press. He would scowl

and be stern. He couldn't stop it all, but you knew when he stopped to correct a press member, it was something he really believed in.

[mourningdove92]

4. Why weren't they punished??????

Punished, my ass. I suspect they all have much higher bank balances than before.

[stanwyck]

13. follow the money

these guys are career liars. They've been on the BushCo payroll for years. Literally. They've been attacking Bush foes with lies, fueled by Texas oil money, since Bush ran against McCain for the party nomination.
It's how they make a living. There are hundreds of liars bought and paid for by Bush. Or by us, right, Armstrong?

[aden_nak]

5. To the victors go the spoils.

Bush only punishes his actual military foot soldiers. His political ones get off scot free.

[blueknight]

6. imho,

those lies cost us the election

[stanwyck]

15. I agree.

the Bushes play dirtier than anyone else. It's how they win. GWB can always claim, "it wasn't me." But his family is behind the lies. They get their friends to get their friends to pay for the hit. They're our political mafia.

[Philly Buster]

8. Some of what they said was true

which made it harder to debunk the lies.

For example Kerry had been telling his Christmas in Cambodia story for years but it was BS and Kerry got caught lying or at least embellishing.

[shraby]

9. I really don't think the Christmas in Cambodia

story was false. We were in Cambodia much earlier than the gov't ever let on.

[Philly Buster]

14. True Cambodia was largely covert

However JFK once told the story with Nixon as president but Nixon had not taken office yet. LBJ was still president. I think that's the version in the Congressional record.

Kerry's people had to admit the story was false. Even the band of brothers didn't go along with that one although they certainly supported him otherwise.

I don't think it's a big deal myself. Most politicians embellish their record. Harkin is another one that got caught embellishing his war service. There have been others that I can't think of off hand. I don't know why but it's just something they do and mostly they get away with it. But for John Kerry it backfired. Couple that with the anger that still lingers in some circles over the anti war protesters and the Swift Boat people had a perfect opening to lob whatever accusations they wanted to. And get away with it.

[LittleClarkie]

37. I don't think what Kerry said was meant to be taken chronologically

I remember at the time some of us read the statement, we decided that when Kerry thought the thought about Nixon, and when he was in Cambodia were two different times. They were next to each other in the sentence but not in time. Trouble is that's hard to articulate.

At any rate he was near the border. Perhaps the embellishment came when he said it was seared in his memory. He may have over dramatized.

Can you imagine anything you've ever said being fair game? Who's that consistant in their every utterance. Of course, Bush gets away with some damn doozies, and it matters not.

I need to go check out the Daily Howler on the subject. I refuse to take anything said in the MSM at face value, esp. after what they said about Gore.

[tsuki]

23. Yes, we were. My father told me about it before he died. Under threat of

court martial if they said anything about it. And the Gravy Boater in Charge, O'Neill admitted to President Nixon that he was in Cambodia.

[stanwyck]

16. List what they said

was true. We've covered the Cambodia statements. What else? Please tell us. Name your sources. "Some of what they said was true." Back it up.

[Bridget Burke]

18. Maybe he wrote that list on the back of the "Michael Moore's Lies" list.

And the dog ate it! Don't you hate it when that happens?

[Philly Buster]

24. Kerry's own campaign backtracked on Cambodia

or at least tried to change the story

From the 8/24 Washington Post:

Now a new official statement from the campaign undercuts Brinkley. It offers a minimal (thus harder to impeach) claim: that Kerry "on one occasion crossed into Cambodia," on an unspecified date. But at least two of the shipmates who are supporting Kerry's campaign (and one who is not) deny their boat ever crossed the border, and their testimony on this score is corroborated by Kerry's own journal, kept while on duty.

[stanwyck]

25. Again, you're repeating yourself

what else? We've covered Cambodia. You listed "some of what they said" and now you're parroting "Cambodia, Cambodia". What else? Put up. Or...

[Philly Buster]

27. I'm not going to research everything

But another area Kerry got caught in was his attendance at a VVAW meeting in which assassination of Senators was discussed. Kerry denied being there but FBI records proved otherwise so he said he was there but voted against the plot.

Part of the reason Swift Boaters got away with fabrications was because there really was some stuff they had on Kerry, especially his anti war activities which pissed off a lot of people. When they resurrected the whole anti war escapades, using Kerry's own words and TV appearances, it reopened a lot of old wounds that never really healed. People associated Kerry with Jane Fonda who to this day is hated by a lot of people for what she did in the early 70's.

Did the Swift Boat vets tell the whole truth? No. But not everything they said was a lie either. And that's how they got away with it. That and the fact that Kerry's campaign handled the attacks very poorly.

[stanwyck]

32. wow. attended a meeting

where assassination was discussed. Verify that. This sounds like crazy rightwing radio. Do you have a link? I'd like to know your source. Otherwise, that's meaningless. And below our standards. Really. Ramp up. This is DU. "Not everything they said was a lie"...yet, you've only mentioned the Cambodia issue, which is debatable, and this "meeting" for which you have given us no source.
That's insulting to your fellow Duers.
You're not going to "research" what you tell us? Then, it's meaningless. It's gossip. It's Swiftboat Liars territory. If it's real, just use Google and post the link.
Aren't we worth the truth?

[LynnTheDem]

22. NOTHING they said was true.

Go listen to the newly released Nixon tapes, where O'Neil is admitting to Nixon they were in Cambodia. Yet gee, O'Neil last year kept saying they were NEVER EVER in Cambodia. Until the Nixon tape was released, showing what a total LIAR O'Neil is.

O'Neil was a big fucking LIAR 30 years ago when his lies didn't pass the stink test & he was laughed out of town even by the right (they weren't as stupid back then).

And O'Neil told the EXACT SAME big fucking LIES last year.

He's a LIAR first hired by Nixon to discredit Kerry.

He & Nixon FAILED.

Then bush hired him. When it comes to dirty lies and liars, bush is far better than Nixon and the right aren't as intelligent as they used to be.

But then EVEN BILL O'REILLY denounced the SB Liars as nothing but a pack of liars. For bush, it's THANK GOD for Hannity and pigboy and Faux Moos!

[blm]

31. It was NOT BS. Kerry ferried CIA operatives into Cambodia.

It's a fact that they were there. Deal with it. Our government would never admit that fact, but unofficially it was wellknown at the time.

[ChairOne]

10. IOKIYAR.... /eom

[k8conant]

11. Vomitable is my word for all this...

simply vomitable :puke:

[Been Fishing]

12. They are republicans, maybe?

n/t

[Gothmog]

17. I hope that Kerry sues these sobs

I am still hoping that Senator Kerry sues these sobs. There is a short statute of limitations for this type of action and so Senator Kerry needs to file suit within one year of the publication of the lie in question in most states.

[LeftCoast]

21. I'd like to know why Kerry didn't sue them for slander?

I sure as hell would have.

[Philly Buster]

29. Libel(written), not slander(spoken)

Public people don't have much of a defense against it.

[shraby]

34. They did both.

Went on t.v. and spoke, wrote a book. Libel AND slander.

[stanwyck]

35. What are you saying?

that the Swiftboat Liars didn't speak out against Kerry? I guess you missed every major television news show for the past six months.

[Philly Buster]

38. I didn't say that

It's almost impossible for a public officials to sue for libel or slander.

[Locut0s]

26. Because they have taken to heart what Joseph Goebbels' said:

He said essentially "If you are going to lie, the bigger the lie, the less likely it will be questioned", I don't think this is the exact quote but that's essentially it. He meant that a small lie is easily picked apart, but if you are bold enough and accuse someone of something tremendous and almost obviously false from the get go people will actually be stunned into not questioning your statement and blindly believing it.

So the reasoning goes, if you want to discredit someone and get away with it don't accuse them of being a womanizer and a fraud, charge them with being a child molester.

[CBHagman]

39. Very true, and add this...

...part of the Rove technique is to choose a candidate's strength and attack him/her on that. Here's a quote, by way of Charlie Peters of The Washington Monthly, on an article in The Atlantic by Joshua Green:

"He points out 'Rove's signature tactic is to attack an opponent on the very front that seems unassailable.' Mark Kennedy, an opponent of ROve's candidate in an Alabama election, had as a family court judge become dedicated to helping abused children. His devotion to the cause was sufficiently imporessive that he was made president of the National Committee to Prevent Child Abuse. Proud of his record, his campaign broadcast one commercial showing him holding hands with children. 'Trying to counter the positives from that ad,' a Rove staffer explained to Green, a whispering campaign was launched alleging that Kennedy was a pedophile. Recognize a pattern?"

(Quoted from the Tilting at Windmills column in the November 2004 edition of The Washington Monthly)

So what have we learned?

2000: The Al Gore as liar campaign, with the end result being that every ninny in punditry, broadcasting or a major newspaper, repeats the "Al Gore says he invented the Internet!" spiel.

2000: Full-scale smear campaign conducted against former POW John McCain during the GOP primaries. Some of the ugliest whisper campaigns appear in South Carolina. Merrie Spaeth, later of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth ads, is involved in some anti-McCain advertising.

2002: Vietnam veteran and triple amputee Max Cleland smeared as unpatriotic for, if I recall correctly, supporting a different version of the Homeland Security Department bill than did Bush. Never mind that Bush was originally against a DHS and hadn't come up with the idea for the department (a Democrat had).

2004: Nixon shill John O'Neill leads a smear effort against John Kerry.

They all got away with it. THEY ALL DID.

I ask again: How are they to be punished? Do we have to wait for the ring of hell assignements or something?