My husband makes me so mad! HELP!!!!

[demgurl]

I am asking for help but I guess I know there is not much anyone can do - including myself!

My husband is a Dem perhaps even more so than I. I guess the real problem is how naive he is. He is like that in all areas of my life and I have always found it sweet how trusting he is but now it is royally pissing me off to the point that I do not even want to discuss politics with him any more.

I guess the main point of contention right now is that no matter what proof I try to throw at him, he can not grasp that the election was rampant with fraud and that * only won because it was rigged.

The other day was the final straw. He used a football analogy and basically said that if a team lost in the final seconds because a ref made a wrong call then they did not loose because of the call but, instead, because they did not get points earlier and many more than the other team. I disagreed with that. He then went ahead and said that even if the election had been fixed in key states, Kerry should have concentrated in some states other than just the battleground states and perhaps he would have won.

He asked me if it had been Clinton running if I thought Clinton would have won. (he knows i am a HUGE Clinton fan)I said no one could have won since it was rigged.

I don;t know, I am at my wit's end. He can not see how so many votes could be diverted without others noticing such inconsistencies. He said if such fraud would have happened that someone would have noticed it and stopped it. He insists no matter how many links I throw at him that none of them are proof that anything happened.

I guess this is all coming to a head because I constantly bring up things from this board and a lot of them are cross referenced with the stolen election. And, of course, when I bring that up, he brings up how impossible it would be for the election to be stolen! I end up getting so frustrated and do not even want to share this stuff with him and I think a lot of it is news and important.

I know I could leave election stuff out of our discussions but it is such an important issue with me and I am disgusted with how America has slept through it and just let it happen without a fight.

So do you all have any advice? Am I just destined to not bring up things I find funny, sad and important all at the same time? Is anyone else dealing with this sort of thing? HELP!

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. At least you are married to a Dem. I married into a RW fundagelical

family. I can't talk to hubby about anything serious without either being made fun of or yelled at.

*hugs to my sister*

----------------------------------------------------------
Save this nation one town, county, and state at a time!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm#why

[alittlelark]

51. How horrid!!!

I'm married to a deacon in the church of capitalism (Stanford MBA), but at least he is capable of comprehension, and was enthralled by John Perkins 'Confessions of an Economic Hitman'.... he is slow in his leftward slide, but he passed the center a few months ago.

[Debs]

52. You have

My deepest condolances. I cant begin to imagine

[lupita]

81. I can't believe any body could yell at you!

You must be one of the sweetest du'ers around here.

*hugs too*

Lupita

[LoZoccolo]

2. Why is this so important?

Not the issue, but that he thinks the way you do about it? Is it really worth getting upset over? Will it really help?

[MissBrooks]

65. I had someone tell me years ago...

Would you rather be right, or happy?

[hang a left]

3. I can't help but I can commiserate with you.

My husband doesn't listen to a word I say and he hates, hates du. (he is glaring at me right now). Sucks!

[Angelique]

43. My guy is a right-wing nutjob.. but he is a really great guy otherwise

he doesn't try to stuff his wacko beliefs down my throat nearly as much as I try to convince him about the real facts.. We did have a few really heated discussions about this election. However, one time the bastard posted some of his puke here on DU under my name, after I had an argument with him about Kerry.. I got up to cook dinner and left the site logged on, and whatever he said got me thrown off the boards for almost a week..

Thankfully the guys were nice enough to listen to me and finally understood what happened.. I don't know what I would have done to him if they didn't let me back on.. He did feel bad when he saw how bad I took it, and offered to contact the mods and explain it.. Like I said, he is a great guy to me, and a super dad to our kids. He is pretty current on the important things but leans way right in his opinions, and he does read DU among other liberal and rightwing forums, but thinks we are all nuts.. :)

[Florida_Geek]

4. Ask him about Shaving Points in Basketball

if you shave 3% in every state, from Kerry to Bush, then states Kerry won could end up in Bush column like NV and NM.

[Stephanie]

5. Let him hear it from someone else

He is tuning it out because it's coming from you. I have run into this problem with friends constantly over the last four years. You can tell them and tell them but they won't hear it until it comes from someone else.

[Medium Baby Jesus]

6. Maybe he's right (nt)

[roguevalley]

8. you could point him to the sites and people that know the truth.

Other than that, I feel for you, honey. Thank god my family is like-minded with me.

[noamnety]

7. you could concentrate on looking forward

It's really not the end of the world if he doesn't think Kerry lost enough votes in the fraud to make the difference. He wouldn't be the first to state that.

If you can get him to believe that election reform is important for future elections, that's the bigger issue now - especially if you can get him to work towards it. Emails, LTTE, signing petitions, whatever he can do.

Sometimes married couples have different belief systems, whether it's religion, election fraud, and so on. It's possible to respect their beliefs without agreeing with them.

[demgurl]

11. I really do respect him and he is so intelligent.

I guess it is hard to believe we have different belief systems when we were best friends for 15 years before we started dating. Even when we were married to others, we always wanted to tell each other big news first. We think so much alike most of the time. I just wish he could see the light on this issue.

He bought into the fact that * won last time until he fully read an article that said, at the very bottom, that Gore had won in actuality!

The thing that really bugs me is that we share most everything with each other and I am starting to feel like I can not share stuff about this topic since he feels the election was won fairly. I do not like feeling as if I can not share certain things since our relationship has been an open book for almost 20 years.

[OKNancy]

14. Lots of people think like your husband

Most Dems think like he does, and lots of DUers do too. We tend to keep quite because.....well you know why.
Thank your lucky stars you are married to a Dem, and get to work on 2006. That could bring you closer together.

[demgurl]

72. Well I do not think we could be any closer than we are right now.......

I know we all have to look forward at this point but I think there is a discrepancy on how to proceed. I understand those who want a strong candidate. I think we need one as well. I just do not think it could hurt to try to get some voting reform passed. There are lots of areas we can all work on.

[noamnety]

17. I know how you feel

I'm an atheist married to a Lutheran. We don't talk about religion itself much - although he occasionally overhears a snarky comment about it between my daughter (not raised in a church) and myself. When that happens, I feel bad.

The mutual respect part is that I took the time to go to a weekend retreat to learn about his beliefs, although I don't share them, and I'm in his church's orchestra which I enjoy, and he doesn't try to convert me, ever. His pastor actually preemptively lectured him about not doing that before we got married, which was way cool. But that's maybe too much info. :)

Anyway, my point is, sometimes you do have to learn that part of respecting each other is not to try to convert each other, even if you are really really sure you are right (as I am about atheism, and as my husband is about God).

It's not a big deal (well, it is to you, but I'm trying to convince you it isn't, anyway) if he believes it cost the election. If you back off changing his belief on that, you might be able to talk about specific things, like how outraged you are about the long lines in some precincts, or how much you distrust paperless voting.

[demgurl]

84. Thank you for advice.

I will try to follow it. I always try to temper what I say. I never tell him he is wrong - because I do not believe he is when it comes to us needing a good strong candidate. I always just try to tell him I can see his point and along with getting that strong candidate, wouldn't it be great if we could put fail safes in place?

This whole thing is not a big deal at all. This all has just made me realize that if he feels this way than many others also do. That is what is really getting to me at this point. If nothing is wrong then we have nothing to loose by installing checks and balances. If something is wrong, we can only gain by putting in safety measures. It is a win-win situation whether you believe anything is wrong or not.

[2bfree]

19. Time to move on.............

This isn't going to help you, him or your relationship.

[Yupster]

88. I'd drop the topic with him

It's not worth the damage it will cause, and besides...

You very well may be wrong.

I know how much of themselves people have invested in this, but I've been reading now for two months and I've pretty much decided there just isn't a whole lot of there there.

[Jacobin]

9. I sympathize with your husband

Unfortunately, I know sooooooooooooooooo many people who voted for Bush* that the 'win' does not surprise me...not even a little bit.

Yeah, there was probably fraud in some Ohio precincts. Maybe several hundred thousand votes were rigged.

But you know what? After what Bush* has done to this country over the last four years, if we couldn't beat the SOB by a landslide, an utter landslide, then we have lost.

Give him a break.(your husband, not Bush*) I know exactly how he feels.

[rurallib]

10. "okay, honey, years ago in football games

they realized that it was very important for the ref to get the call right. So they came up with instant replay. That way, if a ref makes a wrong call it can be corrected. That way if a team works hard and actually wins at the end, it can't be stolen by a dishonest ref.
Wouldn't it be nice if we had a way to check to make sure something dishonest was not happening with something WAY more important than a football game. You know, just to keep people honest?"

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

12. It's called independent 3d party auditing of the elections. You're not

likely to see this in America any time soon.

[tanyev]

13. I can't share everything with my hubby.

He's a liberal, and he is sympathetic to everything we talk about on DU, but he's very sensitive. While I am exhilarated by my DU education, if I share too much with him, he gets stressed. So I just talk about the biggest events of the day in general terms, or repeat some of the funniest comments I read. He's off in the other room playing Half-Life2 right now. He loves his computer games.

All of DU doing everything we can will not keep GW from being coronated on Jan. 20. Hopefully the investigations that have been launched will reveal something concrete that will eventually convince your husband or at least get things cleaned up by 06 and 08. Until then, keep reminding yourself how lucky you are that he is a Dem!

[Divine Discontent]

16. SINGLE LIFE FOR ME!!!!!!!!!!

lol... sorry, but you really don't have it THAT bad, at least he's a dem. I feel for the RW fundegelical fam lady, as she called herself...
to Christ be the Glory, not to Bush.

tell him, there was significant evidence of a direct attempt by the OHIO attorney general to do EVERYTHING in his power (tell him to look it up on google) to circumvent people from voting that odds are, were going to vote for Kerry (big city, blacks, women, unions, poor people moving a lot)

God bless ya...

[Clark2008]

45. I'm single - but I don't know that I want to be

Don't know that I don't.

I live in a red state and haven't met a single soul that I want to share my life with in such a long time, I think I've forgotten what that's like.

Today was my birthday. I'm making no money. I have a college degree. I have a house, that I struggle to keep. I have no dating future.

However, I have the best child in the free world. He's 5 and so worried about the "salomi" victims (LOL!) and wants to be an architect so that he can build buildings that can move out of the way of errant airplanes.

And, then I wonder why I feel lonely.

Really, if you love the guy - stay with him. If not, move on. It's not like he's beating you up or cheating on you or choosing drugs over you (not you, themaryred, I'm speaking to the OP).

[Karenina]

62. HAPPY BIRTHDAY CLARK2008!!!

:toast: :party: :toast:

All GOOD things to you and yours! :hi:

[demgurl]

87. Clark.....

You seem like a very nice person. I hope you find someone who see things the way you do. A belated happy birthday to you.

This is nothing I have ever thought of leaving him over. It is not important in our relationship. I do hate keeping things from him because we had a HUGE fight last year when he kept some key things from me. We did almost divorce over that but we have worked hard on things ever since.

After lecturing him about being totally up front and truthful with me, I feel like such a hypocrite if I am not with him. I feel like I am keeping things from him if I can not discus them. It does not feel right. What bothers me about this, in relation to him, is that I do want to share everything with him and I am starting to feel as if I can not on this one subject.

Is this his problem? NO! Let me say that again - this is MY problem, not his. He is doing as I asked and being very honest with me about how he feels about this whole thing. He is being wonderful and up front. I could keep it to myself but I feel like I am hiding something big from him when I do that. This is something I am so passionate about and so it is a big part of who I am emotionally right now. If I share with him I get frustrated.

I have never asked for advice on how to change him. I think it is so funny how many women date a man and marry him. They see things they do not like and nag him til he changes. Then, years later, they divorce him because he is not the same man they married! Duh! Do you think?

This is not only my husband and father to my children, this is truly the man I believe is my soul mate. This is someone I am truly, madly, deeply in love with. This is someone I know I could never live without. This is the keeper of my heart.

[demgurl]

86. No, I do not have it bad at all.

I do worry for our country but I have the best life. I sometimes feel guilty when friends complain to be about their life and their families because I have nothing to really complain about.

I did tell hubby about Ohio and the attorney general and all he said is to send him links. Now I have sent him links before about items such as Ohio not counting the votes according to state law. He always just seems to dismiss anything I send and say that that is not proof of anything. I was not saying that it was proof but I do think it illustrates the fact that things do need to be done by the book and questions should be asked about why they aren't.

He does agree that some folks were prevented from voting and has never argued that they were not. I try to use that as a spring board to say that a few votes here and a few votes there and pretty soon you have some serious numbers. I use examples of a few things and then he just shrugs and says Kerry should have tried harder in other states.

But you know what? There is no better husband than mine. He is truly one of a kind. I can not fully explain what a terrific guy AND Dad he is.

[Debs]

53. My Wife is the same way

She is very sweet, and very liberal. She cannot however stand to hear too much about the lack of empathy and compassion of current politics. She asks me about something then says I cant take it, who are these people.

[demgurl]

85. I always try to remind myself how lucky I am.

That is great advice. Thank you. I have actually just recently instituted a new tradition for our family. When we have dinner every night, each one of us always has to say one good thing that happened to them that day. It makes us appreciate everything and take time to see the good even when we have had a bad day. My boys are VERY young but I am hoping this will have a good effect on them.

[mdhunter]

15. My dear, your answer.

You are, of course, both right.

I understand your husband's point. Like when a kicker misses the last minute field goal that would have won the game... you never blame the kicker. It wasn't his fault the team put him there, it was their job to put the points on the board and they failed to do it sufficiently.

He's just lamenting that it was so close. Kerry could have, should have, run a better campaign that bested Bush by a margin that have made this all moot. But, he didn't. So, in a sense, if it comes down to one state, like the kicker, it's because the team didn't do enough elsewhere to put points on the board.

But, you're right too. If Kerry had done better elsewhere, he would have won. However, if not for systemic failures in Ohio, it is likely that Kerry would at least be in contention. You're arguments are not mutually exclusive - you're simply putting differing weights on the parts of the contest. He thinks the first three quarters were the most important and bears the most scrutiny - and you don't think he's right about that, accordingly you're not taking him so seriously. You think the last quarter is the most important, he doesn't think you're right and isn't taking you so seriously either.

The bottom line is, you either need to put up more points in the first three quarters, run a good campaign, or be sure your kicker comes through in the end, be sure there is no systemic error. It doesn't matter which you do to win - but we should ultimately be shooting for both.

[demgurl]

20. Thanks for taking time to understand both sides.

As I stated above, he is really very smart - perhaps (and most likely) more so than I.

Yes, I am glad I am married to a Dem. But I do not think I would marry anyone who was not a DEM. I just do not get the 'other side'.

I guess maybe we could have done more but now that time is past. I have tried to reel him in by saying to forget completely about the election and the results. I said that if everyone truly wants an up and up election then things need to reformed to assure everything is straight up. He does agree with this.

One thing I am afraid of is that he represents so many people's opinions and they are just not seeing the big picture. I am not unrealistic. I do not think the courts are magically going to turn around and certify Kerry and then bluebirds will land on his shoulder as he sings 'Zipadeedoda'.

The thing that truly scares me is that so many people feel the way my husband does and they do not see the future that I do. If the machines really are slanted toward republicans, it could be decades before we ever gain control of the government again. And then that would only happen after another revolution.

It does not matter if there is fraud right now because I truly believe that battle is behind us and nothing can be done. I believe we are now battling for the future. Perhaps I am frustrated because I do not see enough common folk fighting to make our country right for the future. I know there are enough people on here, but what about out there?

[alcuno]

18. Muddy the water. Call them all crooks.

Erode the credibility of all politicans and trust in government. It's the only way to get the people to throw out whoever is in office. Since they currently happen to be Republicans, they are the real target.

[Catherine Vincent]

21. I think you should divorce.

j/j

[demgurl]

22. I think you are right, know any good lawyers?

Maybe I should ask the chimp, I am sure he has surrounded himself with soilid legal people! lol.

[FizzFuzz]

32. what a great typo!

soilid legal people

seriously though, are you joking about the divorce lawyer thing? You sounded as if the positives balance higher than the negatives for you. This joke sounds like the opposite--

Actually, you don't have to answer me--I'm just someone on a discussion board. But you might need to look more closely at your joke; not good to be miserable and make jokes but do nothing about it...

Or maybe you were just blowing off steam, which is fine too.

Hope I'm not getting too personal.

[MercutioATC]

23. Perhaps let him have his own opinion?

Just a thought...

[demgurl]

24. He can have his own opinion, as long as it is mine! LOL.

Nah I am just joking. He can have his own opinion and, in fact, I want him to. Note I never asked how I could change his mind. all the time I have stated how much it bothers me that this makes me feel as if I can not share as much as I would like to.

Maybe a lot of marriages have secrets but my husband and I basically share EVERYTHING. I have made it a point never to lie to him or keep anything from him.

I also went on, in a later post, to say that perhaps what was really bothering me is that I am scared a lot of people are not seeing the bigger picture and that I believe getting Dems into office may be in jeopardy and folks just are not seeing it.

It would be a very boring relationship if he felt the same as me about everything. I would never want that. This is something that greatly bothers me because I feel he really does not try to see my point at all and it frustrates me that I am starting to feel as if I can not share these very important thoughts with him.

[MercutioATC]

25. I do understand.

I believe pretty much what your husband does. Even though there was a degree of irregularities (and perhaps some localized fraud) I think Bush did get more legitimate votes. However, I understand that there are some people who are quite passionate about the idea that the election was "stolen".

This might be one of the issues where you could agree to disagree.

[WillowTree]

26. Must he always agree with you?

You have one view of it and he has another. If your roles were reversed, would he be able to change your mind?

Unless you're prepared to make this an issue between you, it may be time to let it rest. We can't always make those we love see things our way and, in this case, even if you could turn him around on this, it wouldn't change the outcome of the election. It might be a battle that's not worth fighting in the big scheme of things. Unless you want this to become a wedge between you, and it doesn't sound as if you do, try to focus on the proverbial Common Ground instead. Remember, we want peace!

8-)

[demgurl]

27. Nah, he does not have to always agree with me.

I guess what it really comes down....after analyzing myself on this thread, is that if one Dem thinks like this, how many others are out there that think like this?

I understand how messed up freepers are and you just are not going to change their thinking. They have won and they do not care if there are no Dem presidents for years to come. They would be happy.

I guess what really frustrates me about this is that if this is one person, how many others out there feel like this? These are the folks content on just letting the elections happen each time and a new freeper pres each time. It may not dawn on them, for years, that our electoral system needs an overhaul and that pubes do not play by the rules. They trust the government to do what is right because that is the only thing they know and they feel they have to trust it.

All dems are on the same side. I wish harm on none of them. Perhaps life would be that much easier for me if I felt the way my husband does. Just trust in the system and know that good will win out the way it does in books and movies. Ignorance is bliss.

I know and suspect to much to feel this way and I suppose I always thought of dems as one big army fighting the good fight but now I realize some folks do not realize what is going on and they trust in the system and so they will not fight. In some ways I wish I was trusting and happy but I would never give up the knowledge you folks have armed and educated me with.

My husband can have his own opinion and in some ways I envy him that he feels everything will just work itself out and that there may be small kinks in the system but nothing so big that it would not have been caught. In some ways it is easier to live life in that mode than always going here each day and wondering what new thing * has done against our country.

[WillowTree]

38. Different human beings...

....even those who are very much alike, often see things differently, demgurl. It stems from differences in background and upbringing and where we what we majored in in college and who our best friend was in fourth grade. It's what makes the world go 'round.

I'm not saying that you don't have every right to feel the way that you do about the election. It's part and parcel of who you are. But he has to be who he is, too. You and I may never know why he sees it the way he does, but it sounds as if he's just as convicted of his view as you are of yours. And that would make him a pretty strong man, I think. As much as you want him to agree with you about his and as valid as your reasons are, don't ask him to compromise what he believes, or worse, be less than honest with you just to make the issue drop. That wouldn't solve anything for the better, either.

Who knows? It's just possible that over time, if left to his own devices, he may just come around to your way of thinking on his own. Sometimes we have to find our way by ourselves, y'know? But either way, he needs to know that you respect his right to his own POV, even if you disagree with it.

[Ironpost]

28. Agree to disagree

and keep politics and religion out of your conversations. Love him for who he is. Think not what is bad but what is good. We all have our own faults. Love him

[demgurl]

29. If only there was more love in this world.....

And not just love of one's self. I do love him - with all my heart and more than I could ever truly convey. He is a magnificent human being. Do you know he insisted on changing our children when they were babies? He would fight me on this point. he said I got to feed them and it was only fair that he got to change them! How is that for a wonderful human being? Love is what it does come down to. Thanks!

[yorkiemommie1]

30. If only my husband were like yours...

we were in a roomful of strangers at the Magic Castle and someone mentioned Bush's second term. my husb. pipes up, I'M GLAD HE GOT ELECTED!. nobody asked him. he sticks up for shrub every chance he gets like he worships him. next time this happens i'm catching a cab home.

it is very hard to NOT bring things up because of all the assaults on our lives that the GOP is launching. AHnuld is trying to mess w/ very critical issues in this state, and Bush is assaulting us on top of it all. my husb and i have HUGE blowouts because he tries to censor me and our daughter. He hates DU even though he's never been here, but relies on Drudge. Avoids the LA TImes like the plague. Listens to talk radio. Watches FoxNEWs.

been married over 30 years but if i could have foreseen this i never would have said yes.

this is not only because he adores everything GOP but because his world view is so different from mine. very straussian in many ways.

'i was so much younger then'.....

[demgurl]

31. Wow!

You should always be grateful for what you have, huh? I hope your husband comes around....or at least he does not shout his opposing opinions and thereby embarrassing you. I am sorry to hear that he did that to you.

[yorkiemommie1]

34. he's bush's cheerleader

i have told him bush has no use for him any more.

my husb is on social security/medicare and he would be a good lemming and accept whatever cuts Bush wanted to inflict on his benefits. of course that means I would have to work longer to keep us afloat, but he refuses to listen. he just clamps his jaws and stares straight ahead. he positively bristles with loyal indignation at any criticism of Bushco.
my dearly departed inlaws were staunch well-informed democrats, too, as is his brother.

so demgurl, the differences between the two of you are very minor; you are really quite lucky!


i wish you well!

[BikeWriter]

92. How do you refrain from killing him?

I couldn't live with one of them! :(

[FizzFuzz]

36. Hey Yorkie, I am truly sorry to hear this; for all the people stuck

with RW partners, I can't imagine the strain. It must be awful.

Wish I could help somehow. :(

[rman]

33. your husband is saying that fixing an election is ok

"...if the election had been fixed in key states, Kerry should have concentrated in some states other than just the battleground states and perhaps he would have won"

in other words, the one who lost the fixed election should just have tried harder - it's not that he lost because the election was fixed (even though it was, as your husband assumes for the sake of argument) but because the loser didn't work hard enough to offset the fixing.

in short: it's fair to win by cheating.

does your husband really think that's the way democracy should work?

[demgurl]

42. Nah, he does not feel that way.....

but I think he is just trying to justify what he see in the corporate media (IE nothing) and what I show him which is where he looks for the smoking gun. Several times I have shown him things and he says it does not prove anything. And he does buy into some of his friends saying that it would have stood out if votes had been stolen and, ergo, votes were not stolen!

Not sure what his reasoning is about the football. Just that Kerry should have tried harder? Right now he was just talking to be about he fact that what we need to be concentrating on is getting a viable candidate. He said he will not believe the election was stolen until a viable candidate - one that should win by a landslide, looses.

I insist that we can work on finding a great candidate along with reforming the election process would go a long way. He thinks our main strategy should be getting a charismatic leader. Well that person will never be elected if it is rigged!

[rman]

49. He may not feel that way but he does say as much

Maybe that will become clear to him when you confront him with what he is saying.

Election reform won't make that much of a difference in and of itself;
rigging an election is not allowed under current election laws and regulation. So upholding the law, and following up when there are signs of election fraud might just do the trick.

Now that there are signs of election fraud it would be proper to demand thourough investigations of the election.

[Gay Ranger]

35. Sorry to say this but...

In a way, your husband is correct. I am not saying there was not any fraud, I think there was. But there was only enough fraud to push Bush over the IN A CLOSE ELECTION.

I'll use a boxing analogy. In a championship match, the Champion comes in with the advantage of being champ. Not supposed to be, but that is how it is. The challenger comes in, puts up a good fight but never has a clear advantage. The close rounds where there was no clear winner, those go to the champ on most scorecards. Sometimes, in the rounds where the challenger has a very, very slight advantage but the champ got in some good shots, the judges will swing those toward the champ. In the end, the champ wins a split decision with scores of 116-114, 115-114 and 114-115. Seems fair enough, though maybe a few people feel that the challenger should have won.

Okay same two fighters, the challenger comes in and dominates. A few rounds go to the champ but the challenger wins all of the others clearly. If the Champ is given the decision after this, bottles and chairs go flying into the ring and a riot ensues.

Kerry had a tie, maybe even a very slight squeaker win. There was enough fraud to push Bush over the top. The best Kerry could was keep it close enough that most peole could see Bush's win as plausible so they accept it. If Kerry had dominated, had won very decisively there would have been a lot more outrage than there is now.

We need a charismatic, passionate candidate who can win with enough of a cushion that the 2-3 points of fraud that the Republicans can get are negated. Kerry was never going to get us that much.

[demgurl]

39. Gay Ranger.....

But isn't saying that we needed someone with more charisma ignoring the fact that if the elections were rigged, they will be rigged in the freeper's favor until there is something done about the voting system?

I see some of my husband's points when I look at it from his perspective because he thinks all will work itself out. He also worked with some freepers that convinced him that if there really was such an upset then where is the uproar and where are all the challenges. They convinced him that more would have been made of it. My husband even mentioned the media and said it would have been reported there if there had been such inconsistencies!! They completely convinced him that nothing could be wrong since it was not reported.

Anyway, I did not get on here to prove my husband wrong or to say he is wrong. I do believe freepers are wrong but I think my husband is just naive and that some freepers have influenced his thinking. I can see how that would happen.

The big point here is that the system needs an overhaul and if enough people d not stand up and say we need a fair system, we are doomed to be ruled by freepers for years to come.

[Gay Ranger]

41. I agree, but

fraud can only help so much. Not even in the polls, did Kerry ever have a decisive advantage. It was a squeaker all the way to the wire. When Clinton won in '96, there was absolutely no way any amount of fraud could have changed the outcome, it is just not possible. Kerry never had that kind of advantage. We are digging a hole for ourselves if we think that fraud was the SOLE reason for us not being win this time. The right candidate can make the slight advantage from fraud mute.

[marions ghost]

77. I have to agree with you in post #39 that

your husband is naive. But he isn't alone. There are many like him who will argue that 1. it's not possible to have widespread fraud and suppression 2. the media would have reported it.

Take it for what it's worth from an anonymous poster on a liberal-bias forum, but I say--these are naive conclusions in this world today. I have had enough experience both in media and following political races to know what I am talking about. I would guess that your husband's life is going well and he wants to believe he lives in a fair society that works as well as a sports playing field where thousands of eyes can tell you what's fair. I'd love to live in that world too, but we don't.

What does seem true:
Your marriage is basically good and will not suffer as long as you don't bludgeon him with this. Dialogue but not obsession. He has to come around on his own and it takes time. If he never does, it'll be one of those "differences" that can just be there.

Your words ring true to me:
"the system needs an overhaul and if enough people do not stand up and say we need a fair system we are doomed to be ruled by freepers..." Or as my elderly lifelong Dem Dad said after the election, well, I'm gonna have to start voting Republican, cause I want my guy to WIN." Yes, there's a lot the Dems/liberals can do better but voter confidence after 2000--2004 is going to take some work also. It will be awhile before we can have real "transparency" in the election process. But there's nothing wrong with expecting it in a democracy.

[demgurl]

83. Being naive is one the things I love about him.......

He says that we compliment each other since I am so jaded and we balance each other out. We are like that when it comes to raising our children as well. We work very well together. I may be frustrated but I know what I have and I would not change him at all. He is a wonderfully sweet and caring man.

Thank you for your words, they are appreciated.

[PennyK]

37. At least he's on the right (left?)side

My husband is a Democrat, but in general he dislikes politics, as he feels it doesn't affect his life (hah!). From April, when Air America started, I became so gung-ho about the election, and getting * out of office, that he got disgusted with hearing me talk about the subject so much. He did things to annoy me, like talk about what a great president Ronald Raygun was! Then, of course, after the election, I was SURE that * stole it...so things around here got even worse. We are barely speaking now...our whole relationship is down the drain...so don't complain!

[demgurl]

40. Yeah, his heart has always been in the right place.

He sees the world through these wonderful filters and I wish we all could be that way - including freepers.

I do feel lucky and I guess this thread has evolved from me feeling frustrated about feeling I can not share to me realizing I am really scared that we will not be able to do enough and elections will be rigged for years to come. If my husband feels this way, how many more do? I am frightened that we are in the minority. I hope we are not.

[VPStoltz]

44. If he were a REAL Democrat...

he'd know that defrauding an election was the only way that puke could win.

[Tacos al Carbon]

55. Boy, I hope you're joking

Or do you really think that Reagan didn't really beat Carter or Mondale, that Bush didn't beat Dukakis and that Nixon didn't beat Goldwater (actually, Nixon had a real beef when it came to fraud since it seems that Kennedy may have stolen Illinois in their VERY close election).

Like I said, I hope you're joking ... if not, well, the partisan blindness can be pretty ridiculous sometimes.

[fujiyama]

46. Maybe he just believes

that there are a lot of stupid people out there.

That's what I think. I think a lot of people out there want a fascist state.

I'm still not completely sure regarding fraud. Don't get me wrong - I definetely believe there were irregularities, oddities, and I'm not completely sure Ohio was legitimate, but I still don't see how the outcome would have been different.

Be happy he's a Dem and focus on bashing Bush and his policies instead. It'll give ya common ground.

As for those stuck in relationships witth Freeper types...That sounds terrible. I couldn't imagine being in a relationship with a conservative/RWer.

[chefgirl]

47. At least he's a Democrat

I was married for 14 years to a RWer who spent 22 years in the military. There was NO talking to him about politics.
He bought into EVERY single RW slander against Democrats.

There were plenty of problems which led to him being my ex, but our divergent political views were right at the top of the list.

If it hadn't been for other problems, I could have overlooked our political policy disagreements (and most often I did) but what bothered me more than anything was knowing that I was continuing to live with a man who was walking into that voting booth and voting for a Republican every time. It always made me feel like a traitor. :shrug:

Count your blessings. At least you're married to a Democrat.

-chef-

[Hippo_Tron]

48. I disagree with you about Clinton not being able to win

I have no absolute proof of Voter fraud in Ohio to the extent that it gave the election to Bush, nonetheless I have no reason to believe that it is beyond the administration by any means especially after Florida in 2000. Nonetheless, if Clinton were running he would've won Ohio by several million votes. Had Blackwell tried to change several million votes to * he'd be facing felony charges as we speak. Also, Clinton would've taken at the bare minimum Iowa, New Mexico, Louisiana, Arkansas, and probably West Virginia, places where democrats actually have power making voter fraud much more difficult.

[Neanderthal]

50. I suppose I can agree with at least one of your comments.

You do sound as if you’re at your wits end.

[txindy]

56. At least her husband is a Democrat

One who thinks for himself and not some knee-jerk, Faux news-suckling moran. That's a major plus. A lot of people are afraid to face the truth about the election because it makes it clear that this country is being run by criminals. Their crimes will catch up with them, though. It's only a matter of time.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[txindy]

67. Interesting choice of words. You're a "Democratic," hmm?

Whatever that is. You must mean "Democrat." Faux news must call Democrats "Democratics." ROFL!!!

Check out the national county by county map and you'll see that even Texas is purple - county by county. Imagine. Uncle Bob and Aunt Betty have a lot more sense than you think.

Type fast.

[Neanderthal]

73. I’m glad you got such a charge out of that,

but to imply that I am a full time FNC viewer is a little off the mark. I prefer NPR’s programming. However, I’m not afraid to tune into Britt Hume at 6:45pm just to see who might be on his “Panel”. Are you?

In regards to the color purple, it is to laugh. You either win, or you lose. Maybe that concept is a little too difficult for you to grasp.

[txindy]

74. What's the opposite of a "Democratic?"

A "republicanik?" Is that what Falafel Boy calls them? He left out Nazi, fascist, moran, hypocrite, coward, etc. Probably got paid not to use such words. Or look at the truth. If I want to watch someone like Bit Hume, I'll turn on the SciFi channel. It's got just as many 'facts' in it. When the "Alien' movies are shown, it's just like watching 'The Factor' only with a better-looking main character.

I can understand why some would laugh at the reality that counties did not go either red or blue, but a combination of both - purple. It takes thought to grasp such a concept. Ignorance suits those people. Makes them less angry. They spew propaganda and hang out at wingnut boards, constantly making excuses as to why they haven't enlisted in that 'righteous' war, yet. And they stand out like last year's garbage.



As to who won, Kerry did. The exit polls confirmed it. Just as the exit polls caused Junior to go all righteous on Ukraine and demand fair elections. :eyes:

[Neanderthal]

78. Thanks for making my point.

I said I liked “The Panel”, not Hume. Juan, Mara, and Cee Cee often cause the others to spit and stutter.

You say can understand why some would laugh at the reality that counties did not go either red or blue, but a combination of both - purple. Break out your crayons and color that map any way that makes you feel better. The fact is there are only two columns. One for W and one for L.

Fuck purple. We used to be able to most of them solid Blue and the reason we can't seem to do so now lies somewhere other than FNC.

[txindy]

79. Oh, absolutely

Propaganda and lies being fed to Americans under the guise of 'news' has nothing to do with anything. :eyes: That must be the mantra of the "Democratics."

[flordehinojos]

54. the hardes thing to do isto let him have space for his own opinion, while

you have space for your own and to be able to talk about it thoughtfully without all the anger. THAT is an art and only a very few people are able to do that. i am mostly not one of them.

[newportdadde]

57. Well your husband does have a point to an extent.

The football analogy makes a bit of sense to me especially now that the certification is complete. If the game is over its over even if after the fact something comes up.

My personal take is that no doubt fraud occurred. The question is.. did it occur to the tune of 3 million ish popular votes? If it did occur was it covered up so brilliantly that no leaks formed that would provide hard evidence to be used in a court of law?

The bottom line is, no evidence was found that was hard enough to be used as ammo in court. The election has been certified. :puke:

Your husband might be like I am right now, just stunned. With all the ammo we had as a party, Bushes record etc it shouldn't have even been close enough to steal its crazy something occurred strategically that we need to examine as a party.

At least he is still willing to talk, my wife got so upset after the election she has retreated from politics for now.

[demgurl]

59. I do understand the election is over.

And I am not one of those who hangs on and says 'only if....' and hangs onto anger for years to come and blaming that one thing.

I am willing to give and say perhaps we needed someone who worked a little harder or had a little more charisma. My husband always felt let down by the choice of who we let run for us. He always echoed Rush's sentiments that people were not voting for Kerry as much as they were voting against Bush.

I, on the other hand, was very proud of our choice. I thought Kerry seemed very squeaky clean and was excited to have someone that seemed like he was raised like The Beaver was on TV. I would read things, to my husband, about Kerry stirring up the whole Iran-Contra fiasco. I was proud of him. I was a proud that he was a war hero.

I was saddened that my husband was not excited about this candidate but he has his own opinions and even though I read a lot of the warning signs about the voting booths, I still hoped with all my heart that Kerry had a chance to win. I felt like he could be someone who really could unite this country and make it what it once was. Watching Kerry and Edwards (who is from my home state), I could see a glimmer of Camelot on the horizon. I could see a healing for this country and for relations around the world.

I showed my husband an article where it showed that Ohio state law was not followed and that the recount was not done properly in accordance with state law. I asked my husband what he thought of it and he just went back to what the Dems need to do to win next time.

I am not asking him to concede and say I am right. That is not what this is about. There is something so much more important at stake here. Even if he does not believe in voter fraud or that is the reason chimp won, if people would all just agree that we need something that makes sure elections are on the up and up, that is all I want. Why wouldn't someone want to make sure the system is up and up? If you are an honest person, what could it hurt?

I do not want to change his opinion so that he says there was voter fraud. I want him to get fired up and say that we owe it to our system to assure that the proper people get elected - the ones that actually were supposed to. This is no matter whether it is a Dem or a pube.

We owe to ourselves and our country. Do we not tout ourselves as one of the greatest nations on earth? Do we not hold ourselves up as an example? We owe this to our children, to our nation, and to the rest of the world.

[Yupster]

89. Election reform is a good idea

but it should be detached from this election.

You're right about all honest people wanting fair elections, and most people on both sides are honest.

Election reform should be done, but it won't be if it approached from the idea that "You're a bunch of crooks that stole the election so we want changes."

That will just start a mud fight.

[bdot]

58. Not the blubberball analogy!

What's the deal with blubberball and not understanding the score?
It seems that fans of that sport always say that a team does not lose on a bad call at the end but it's because they didn't score points earlier. I remember when Miami beat Ohio St that year and people claimed Ohio St won because a ref later extended the game with a bad call and let Ohio St score a TD. If that theory is to work then the opposing team should be informed before the game starts that the ref will allow the opposing team to get extra plays to score at the end. Plus that team should get a chance to score with extra plays when they fail to score earlier in the game.
It's like the theory of if 2 people take turns shooting baskets, then the 1st person to make 5 baskets wins. Well if they take turns and neither miss, then the person who shoots first wins because the 2nd person would never get a chance to shoot their 5th shot.

But hey, this is America. People are not supposed to think.

[SmokingJacket]

60. Is your name Teresa, by chance???

**Just kidding!**

My husband has been reluctant to hear other "conspiracy theories" I've brought up -- but he was on top of the election fraud stuff because I had pointed him to Bev Harris's Black Box site BEFORE the election, and he saw it all work out as I had predicted.

I'd quit pushing it. The more you argue about it, the more entrenched both your positions will be until neither he nor you will want to give any ground.

Emphasize voter DISENFRANCHISEMENT. That this happened is undeniable. The fact that the Repubs resorted to *not letting certain people vote* and only challenging certain voters is evidence that they would get in the gutter to win.

Denying people the right to vote -- throwing out registrations, long lines, challenging black voters, purging people from the rolls -- is only a tiny step away from total fraud. Let him make that little step.

[amazona]

61. as I believe your husband has a point...

...yes, I would just agree to disagree on this issue.

I go back and forth on the issue of election fraud, so I can see where good people can disagree on this.

Until we get proof, it is not worth fighting amongst ourselves about it.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[Bouncy Ball]

63. I would drop it.

He's a Democrat, right? Votes Dem every time, right?

So what's the problem?

My husband is a Dem, too. Very loyal one. HATES repukes and bushco almost more than I do and that's damn hard to do.

He does happen to believe the election was crooked and as rigged as the day is long, but occasionally there will be things we don't see eye to eye on and I remind myself we are on the same side and drop it.

Because you ARE on the same side!

[Love Bug]

66. Is he an engineer?

I only ask because engineers tend to need hard evidence before accepting something!!

Anyway, if this is the worse argument you ever have, you're doing pretty good! :D

If I were you, I'd just drop it for now and go home and give him a big kiss and thank God he's a Dem and you can at least talk to him about stuff like this!

[Shiraz]

69. I have learned to try

to keep my emotion checked at the door. Not an easy thing but I started reading about all the evidence against the official story re:9/11 and trying to talk to my hubby he just didn't want to hear it . We fought more then in all our 20 years of marriage. He finally said to believe that would be just too hard for his brain to accept about his government and I realised it was emotional for him. I backed off and really try to avoid emotional outbursts. I have stopped watching the evening news with him and that is something we always did in our married life together now I just try to have dinner over with and say "you can go watch your dose of propanda now" which has become a joke and he says it too. I think slowly he believes more then he doesn't now and if we discuss things as long as I keep it short and sweet he listens.

[demgurl]

70. Not an engineer....

....a computer programmer!

I understand that we are lucky not to have real problems right now. Life is not stress free and we are lucky to have each other to turn to when times are tough. And I really am glad he is a dem.

[IronLionZion]

68. My Mom is a Dem and my Dad is Repub

politics aren't the only thing to talk about you know. You shouldn't let silly differences ruin your relationship.

[demgurl]

71. I would never let it ruin our relationship.

It is too strong for that. We have years of being best friends before we ever entered into anything romantic. Like I said in some of my answers to posts, I am now aware that what is making me so frustrated is how many dems may feel this way and that nothing may be done to reform the system.

[double_helix]

75. I agree with your husband's thinking.

He understands that the rules of politics go way beyond what is in the official rulebook .. that the competitors must always do whatever they can to win, even while arguing with the referees.

Nothing in life is guaranteed to any of us, not even life itself, and especially not fairness.

[demgurl]

76. I do not see that my husband understands you must do.....

whatever it takes to win. In fact, what frustrates me is that it almost appears to be the opposite. Last night he told me that no matter how many pubes are elected president he will not believe there is cheating going on until a viable candidate (viable in his eyes alone) looses. The only thing he is passionate about right now is getting a viable candidate to run. He does not acknowledge that the system may be flawed against dems in any way shape or form.

He never mentioned arguing with the referees. He said that if a team lost because of a bad call at the very end then it is their fault that they did not get more points at the beginning. He does not believe it is the ref's fault or that the game should be played on equal footing. It is the loosing team's fault that they somehow did not manage more points.

The problem with this is that the ref was having dinner with the coach, from the winning team, the night before. They are old buddies. The ref winked at the coach and said that he was sure the coach's team was going to win the next night. The odds were slanted against the other team from the start and the ref made sure that any calls made were in the favor of his buddy. At the end, he saw his buddy was about to loose and he made a call for that team so they could win. The loosing team did not have a chance to get ahead at the start, middle or end of the game.

Was it the fault of the losers that they did not get more points to start with? No. They were ruled against the entire time and did not have a chance to do so. Was it the final bad call that made them loose? In a sense it was. They would have won if that crooked ref had not stepped in and made that call to tilt the game against their favor.

I never in my life thought that life is fair. I do think when you see what you perceive as an injustice that you can try to fight against it to make it right.

[double_helix]

80. What I think your husband understands

as I do, is: while there is fraud in the system, it's not much more than it's ever been, and since we all know there's fraud in the system ahead of time, it's the job of the competitors to overcome that fraud -- with superior candidates, strategies, etc.

Your husband subscribes to the "no excuses" mentality - which is key to winning anything in life. I'm an independent and a political observer, and my opinion about the Democrats is that the main reason they lose is due to the fact that everyone in the party is always looking for excuses.

I think after 2000 some (not you in particular) started to buy into the myth that "once upon a time" there was a perfectly clean electoral process, and that we're going through some sort of electoral armageddon. I would argue that the electoral process is cleaner than it's ever been. That doesn't mean that we all -Dems, Ind and Reps - shouldn't strive for a perfect, error and fraud free system. But in doing so, candidates/parties must focus on winning today's election -- regardless of the problems.

[demgurl]

82. Perhaps he does believe that but he does not communicate that to me.

He will not even concede that there was any cheating or there will be any cheating until a candidate he thinks should win does not. This does not say to me that he believes anything went on. In fact, it tells me he has blinders on to the whole thing.

No system is totally clean and it does need to be worked on from all sides. Are we totally clean? Of course not. But I have never felt, until now, that the system may be in jeopardy. One of the owners of the voting machines went to the white house and partied with the chimp. He said, publicly, that he would do everything he can to assure the monkey would get elected. Weird things went on with those machines including more people voting than are even registered in certain counties. I owe it to myself and my children not to follow blindly and to question these things.

If the people in charge of the machines make sure pubes are elected time and time again then we will have no chance what-so-ever. It will not matter what we do - even if it is cheating. (I do not endorse cheating of any kind)

We all have a duty to try to make this country the best darn one we possibly can. I believe we need strong leadership that will fix all that has been broken due to the chimp and his cohorts. I think a lot of things are at work here.

Shrub paid 'journalists' to advertise his programs. I have also heard of journalists feeling intimidated by the administration. People's registration to vote was thrown out. People were intimidated at the voting booths. Chimp had people fighting underhanded (swift boat vets) with lies. Not enough booths were provided for people to vote in a timely manner - note this only happened in heavy dem districts. And the booths were run by people who were heavily leaning to the presiding president's side. No one was allowed to touch these booths except for the workers of that company!!!

Is this sour grapes? No, I think these are points we need to work on to clear the stuff up - along with getting strong candidates. You can not just sit around and whine about this stuff, you need to try and do something. You also can not stick your head in the sand. Many men and women died for our right to have a proper legal process for our representatives.

I will admit it does not help when hubby knows how I feel and he sat at the table tonight saying the American people voted in the chimpster and they get what they deserve. I always tell him that at the very least I did not vote him in and so I do not deserve something as bad as that happening to my country. But I also stress that I do not believe the American people did vote him in and so none of us deserve that. He countered with the fact that he believes it was not rigged and that people just went in and instead of voting with their brain,(how could you vote for Chimp if you were using your brain?) they voted with emotions!

My emotion says I am angry for chimp tricking this country into a quagmire of a war. My emotion says how dare he put is into more debt than any other president in our history. My emotion says how dare he dupe soldiers into a fraudulent war and not even allow our country a chance to grieve by even seeing pictures of coffins. My emotions say that he is one of the most egotistical men I have ever seen and how dare he insult the intelligence of the American people. We are better than that. My emotions say he should go screw himself!

[KaliTracy]

90. it would be hard to "change" his mind -- at this time he believes in the

system, and has trust in the system. You are asking him to throw all of that away for another belief system -- that the system is not only flawed, but is "rigged." Huge shift in thought pattern there.

Where do you live? Are you close to Ohio -- did you discuss what happened here (I live in Ohio) or anything? Show him this (you might need to print it out and put it in a 3-ring binder for ease of reading)

The Conyers Report/ State House Judiciary Committee http://www.pdamerica.org/field/final%20status%20report.pdf

Is he a Numbers man? I found an Awesome site that can be a little overwelming for those who don't like numbers (But it DOES have some awesome graphs, too of Florida and New Mexico, etc.

http://www.jqjacobs.net/bush/xls/ohio.html

For What It's Worth: My DH thinks I'm a bit crazy - right after the election I worked on a spread sheet until week hours in the morning -- I've been writing letters, I went to two rallies in Columbus -- he doesn't like to talk at length about the issues (thinks nothing can be changed) -- but I just keep doing what I'm doing because I totally believe that it would be worse if we all decided to give up. I'm not giving up, and in time, he'll understand why I've been so worked up. I just talk to him about this stuff a little at a time....

Good luck.
:)

[demgurl]

93. Kali....I appreciate the links.

I will share them with him but my goal here is not even to really change his mind as such. I have shown him stats about how impossible it would be for the exit polls to be as off as they were and he has shrugged and said it might be near impossible but that is what happened! I have never fully tried to change his mind, I have actually just aimed for him seeing (and admitting) that it is conceivable that there may have been something hokey going on.

Even when he seems to admit there may be such such - which is a rare occasion indeed, he goes back to blaming Kerry for not getting more points and it not being a landslide. I feel like a dog chasing his tail. The mandate, chimp states, is how much Kerry should have at least won by. So if Kerry did win a 'mandate' then my husband is wrong and Kerry did get many more points. Then my husband always counters with the fact that that many votes can not be hidden or covered up. I say the * admin has gotten away with that and so much more on our country.

One of my biggest mantras since * got in office is two words: COMMON SENSE. This started back when the chimp was trying to push the war. I told my husband there were no WMDs in existence. I said I could not believe the public was buying into it and if they used common sense they would see that it was not true. The reasoning, I used, was that the rest of the world was saying no go. They would not want to put us in danger especially after 9/11. They all have their own intelligence agencies and I was sure they had all gone to them and asked what info they had on Saddam having WMDs. I insisted that common sense leads you to believe we have faulty information at best or that * was trying to trick the nation into a war at worst.

No one around the world liked Saddam so much that they would put the USA in danger in favor of taking sides with Saddam. That is just crazy. It is all that thing called COMMON SENSE. You know that thing that is not so common any more. Many a night I have sat talking to my husband and telling him that it all boils down to common sense and how I wish it was more common then it is.

Anyway, I also say that common sense dictates that there are enough irregularities that something was up with this last election. I do not think he agrees. C'est la vie.

I will share your links and see what he has to say. I am not on a crusade to change his mind as much as I am trying to get him to admit this is all very suspicious. Perhaps your links will do that. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

[KaliTracy]

94. hope it helps... for what it's worth, Conyers is asking for Criminal

Investigation of Blackwell (secretary of state, Ohio). See Letter to Attorney General here http://rawstory.rawprint.com/105/conyers_ashcroft_letter_114.php

I firmly believe it was more than Ohio that had tainted results -- though I also know that some people need to slowly work into an idea (I found this forum because I was outraged about machine disparity -- little did I know then that so many other facets were involved).

It is suspicious. And frankly, since the media aren't talking about it -- it just swirls around in the netherworld until another the information hits another like-minded person -- but I'm so glad that I found some like-minded people here to learn from and kick ideas around with. Take care.

[The Straight Story]

91. My take on it (and may not sit well with some I suppose)

The avg person I meet does see the presidency as a huge deal after the election, it's a job that lasts a few years and then someone new comes along. They also see most all politicians as corrupt anyway, so bush/kerry makes no difference really to them.

Like the football team thing mentioned - your team loses, maybe next year they will win. No big deal.

Then too comes this - So what if Kerry lost, he can still be presidential in what he does. Get out and combat bush on all fronts, get on the news, issue press releases, meet with other countries, fight daily for the people - he is a senator afterall and has power. Why give bushy and crew total power because he is president, there are three branches of government, and we can still work to stop the things he does en masse by public campaigns, et al. We hold the real power, and we need to flex it now and fast, and efficient. If we spend a ton of energy on the last election we are using less on current legislation - and that legislation is what we want to stop anyway (or change).

We want voting reform, out of Iraq, etc and so on - well, screw bush and his little buddies - we can still keep him from f'ing us over. Mass emails, personal contact, bulletin boards in stores, and on and on - we can fight his dumb ass and stop him from what he wants to do. He won this battle, but not the war.

Now does that change how you feel, or your spouse, or the fraud? No - but it is good to know we have power still, and focusing on the loss for years on end could well keep our eyes off other things - not that we cannot do both, but some people could spend their energy more on current than past things. Voting reform? Good - let's ask congress how they would like to use diebold to vote on legislation with no paper trail and a diebold tech that bush likes tallying the results for votes. See how fast congress kills that idea.

The whole point I am making here - agree with assesments made or not - is that perhaps, maybe, your husband feels the ways I described above about the whole thing. * won, now move on and plan the next move to stop him from winning even more.

Personally though - I think there is HUGE trouble brewing real soon. I am not going to focus on last election too much (though I have an opinion or two I will share in threads) - I am more worried about other things right now - like how he would parlay an 'attack' soon into a cashless society and a draft, and removing rights we have in the name of 'safety'.

We cannot change what happend, and while we can work on reform, I think other, darker, things need to be examined right now. If we get to an election in 2008 I would be surprised, the pieces are on the board and he may well be planning a move that would make it mute anyway....

[Old Mouse]

95. Something to understand about men

We men have a natural tendency to protect our self-image of our own intelligence. This predisposed egotism about "smarts" is incomparably stronger in men then it is in women.

Justified or not, it is a natural trait of the male sex to be over-defensive of their reasoning and intellect. Be careful in conversation that you do not phrase your arguments in a way that is dismissive or insulting of the logic he used to come to a conclusion, or he could become preoccupied with defending his process rather than discussing his points.