Creationism/Evolution debated at FR

[Charlie Brown]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1318654/posts

Good, popcorn-munching fun.

"This post will surely bring the fire-breathing religious Darwinists out of the woodwork. Unlike scientific analysts who will acknowledge that they will change their minds if sufficient proof is presented, published, and scrutinized, religious Darwinists outright reject any facts that counter their unscientific beliefs OR they get all Orwellian and pretend that new exculpatory facts somehow fit in to their beliefs as if the new facts had always been known to them."

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. Are they debating round vs. flat earth "theories," too?

And whether Galileo was really wrong after all?

[Blind Tiresias]

17. All you need to tell a freeper

about evolution. The strongest evidence of evolution consists of three things:

1. DNA--natural selection could not be plausibly demonstrated unless there was a specific substance that demonstrated a chemical basis for traits we see, had a TON of variation within a given species, and could be transmitted to progeny. Essentially evolution could not work unless there was a 'timeless' chemical substance that could accumulate minor alterations over time, and DNA is exactly that.

2. Age of Earth--Evolution could not work in the time frame of 6000 or so years of the Earth's existence. However an Earth that is 4.5 billion years old, with life that is 3 billion years old, could account for the gradual changes we see over evolution. Also include bottleneck events, like mass extinctions, where the world's gene pool decreases dramatically, and you could account for change in genetics that could not be seen over the time of modern scientific inquiry.

3. My favorite. Take any cell biology class and you will find that the chemical systems that control our bodies functions are ANYTHING BUT 'intelligently designed'. There is very little efficiency. As a matter of fact, they are needlessly complicated and redundant, consistent with extra steps and chemical processes stacked on top of each other, as you might expect with increasingly complex organisms.

just my 2 cents.

[ChairOne]

24. Not sure about some of those....

(1) I think you overstate things with this one. I think a large part of - possible most - of the scientific community was on the side of evolution even before Watson and Crick. It was of course wonderfully convincing to the rest to have discovered the mechanism of inheiritance. But to say that "natural selection couldn't be plausibly demonstrated" is going too far. I think it was rather like the discovery/creation of the planet Neptune. It was "plausibly demonstrated" to exist on the circumstantial evidence. The actual discovery/sighting of it was more like icing on the cake.

(2) Well, sure.

(3) Other words for redundant are "fault tolerant", "stable equlibrium", and similar things. You're right - fault-tolerant systems ARE inefficient - that's always been the cost of fault-tolerance, and always will be. That doesn't at all suggest bad design, however - no matter how that design came to be. Your writing on this leaves the strnog impression that maximized efficiency is required in order for a system to be intelligently designed. That is just plain false.

"Needlessly" complex? They sometimes use a phrase in this field: "Nature is smarter than you". It's used for cases where folks can't figure out why a certain thing is a certain way. Time and time again, folks concluded that it was a fuck-up, or that there was no reason, only to have a reason discovered the next (unit of time).

[prodigal_green]

2. Teaching evolution

leads to promiscuous sex. These people are totally beyond redemption. (pun intended)

[indigobusiness]

6. Church picnics lead to promiscuous sex

I can vouch for that. Can't say about teaching evolution.

[Jacobin]

3. Oh, my. A soothsayer 'debate'

The brain power at that site.....the mind boggles.

[rurallib]

7. Near equal to that in the White House.

Now if Christianity is the only correct religion, why did God make Muslims?
I sure wish God would put some more oil in the ground or someplace. We's damn near out.

[Been Fishing]

14. Great line.

May I use it?

"Now if Christianity is the only correct religion, why did God make Muslims?"

[rurallib]

4. I always feel a need for a shower after a visit to freeperland

If there was intelligent design would said intelligence design such non-intelligent non-inquisitive beings? Okay, maybe for giggles, but the joke is getting old and is no longer funny.

[Hardrada]

5. Post Scopes Trial

Why is this even an issue to be debated? I loved the flick Inherit the Wind.

[gumby]

8. We've all inherited the 'downwind' now....

and it really, really, really stinks........

from the toxic pollution of chemicals and fundies.

[baldguy]

9. And people wonder why the US can't have a first-rate education system.

It's yahoos like this who run the schools.

[beam me up scottie]

10. Wow, and here I was, bored and ready to go to bed. Thanks.

<snip>
"DISCLAIMER: I will respond to rational discussions of this thread."
<snip>

followed by his signature:

" (Liberals are a greater threat to the USA than are Islamofascists.)"

[ChairOne]

23. ROFL /eom

[beam me up scottie]

11. Hey guys, who's beavus?

"one of these things is not like the others..."

[Runcible Spoon]

12. don't need to go to Freepland for this debate...

guess you missed the DU Monkey trials a few weeks back..

[ihelpu2see]

13. this is why we can not sit idol, I am on the board of finance in

my town now and i check in with the board of ed. and the Super Intendant of School to make sure crap like "Intel design" is not in the pipe works. Unfortunately I was to late to stop the "Every Day Math" crap that teaches nice tricks that work well when dealing with small numbers but.... anyway a discussion for another rant.

For a good read on mis-thoughts on evolution and creationism read " Full House " By Stephen J. Gould... actually read anything by Stephen J. Gould and I guarantee a 5 point increase, or more, in your IQ. He was a great modern, rational thinker.

[prodigal_green]

18. I miss, and the world misses

Dr. Gould. Full House is an excellent book, as is the Mismeasure of Man, which pretty much debunks so-called "social Darwinism."

[ihelpu2see]

21. yes a tragic loss to rational thinkers all over eom

[JHB]

27. He's missed, but he can't stop the tide by himself...

After all, "Mismeasure of Man" debunked the "science" behind "The Bell Curve" a full decade before the latter was published, but the RW machine just ignored it.

[VioletLake]

15. Here's a good resource for this debate:

Science and Creationism
A View from the National Academy of Sciences
http://books.nap.edu/html/creationism/

[Been Fishing]

16. Didn't you know?

1999: Columbine High School
(Evolution Challenged)

Columbine shooting spurs attack on evolution. The tragedy at Columbine High School leads to a general outcry that teenagers in America have lost their moral bearings. In Congress, conservative Republican Rep. Tom DeLay of Texas links this moral decline specifically to the teaching of evolution: "Our school systems teach the children that they are nothing but glorified apes who are evolutionized out of some primordial soup." DeLay's accusation, while outrageous to many, expresses a common fear anti-evolutionists have voiced for two centuries.

From PBS show on Evolution.

[mainer]

19. DISCOVER magazine, Feb. issue: "Scientists Prove Evolution Works"

Check it out! The online edition isn't up yet. I have the print version, and in a nutshell, it's about scientists at Michigan State University who have been running a computer program called "Avida", which allows researchers to track the birth, life, and death of generation after generation of digital organisms, to test the theory of evolution.

The result: Darwin is proven correct.

A quote:

"When the Avida team published their first results on the evolution of complexity in 2003, they were inundated with emails from creationists. Their work hit a nerve in the anti-evolution movement and hit it hard. A popular claim of creationists is that life shows signs of intelligent design, especially in its complexity. They argue that complex things could have never evolved, because they don't work unless all their parts are in place. But as scientist Adami points out, if creationists were right, then Avida wouldn't be able to produce complex digital organisms... 'What we show is that there are irreducibly complex things AND they can evolve,' says Adami...

"The Avida team makes their software freely available on the internet, and creationists have downloaded it over and over again in hopes of finding a fatal flaw. While they've uncovered a few minor glitches, (scientist) Ofria says the creationists have yet to find anything serious. 'We literally have an army of thousands of unpaid bug testers,' he says. 'What more could you want?'"

[depakid]

20. There were actually a couple of well reasoned points

made here and there. Very surprising.

Of course, there was also the usual misunderstanding and misapplication of principles, along with the occasional fundie missive:

I, too, agree that anti-Christian Darwinism should not be thaught in the schools.

In another time, another era, they would be at the stake.

btw: Exactly what is a "fire-breathing religious Darwinist?"

Never heard that one before...

:shrug:

[ChairOne]

22. Evolution is, by its nature, anti-Chrisitian....

Ready, set, GO!

It's true tho.... Universal Solvent, like Dennett said... Christianity teaches a false history of the world. Evolution is the true history. It isn't even notionally possible to reconcile the two.

[cali]

25. Nonsense

It's perfectly possible to reconcile faith and science. Even the Catholic church accepts evolution. As the argument goes, who's to say that God didn't set evolution in motion?

I want to add to the OP, I often dip into the evo/creo threads over in freeperville. I find them fascinating, and I find it encouraging that there are smart freepers.

[ChairOne]

28. Not nonsense...

If people wanna fool themselves into thinking that they're compatible - rock on.

Ah... the old "who's to say" argument.... lol - nice one.

You're welcome to read the Universal Solvent chapter of Dennett's book, if you're interested. Of course, the primary way people fool themselves into thinking evolution and Christianity are compatible is by *not* reading too deeply...

[Bouncy Ball]

26. WHY DO WE CARE WHAT FREEPERS THINK?

Seriously, WHY???????????????????

Why keep linking to them? They are mouth breathing fascist assholes.

I don't EVER click on fr links. And I haven't read this thread. They deserve not a SINGLE MOMENT of our attention.

And for anyone who says "know thy enemy" go ahead, knock yourself out reading over there.

But don't drag that trash here. It stinks up the place!