I don't post much, but I have to tell this to someone

[maumcc1]

I was talking to a co-worker today, a work friend of mine about food stamps. I said that I thought the working poor should get food stamps, since many jobs now are minimum wage. She disagreed, but when I said, what is a family supposed to do, let their kids starve? She rolled her eyes and I knew then that she didn't give a shit if they did starve. Now, I knew she was a Chimpy supporter, but I did at least think she had a heart. Then she mentioned that her cousin has the government pay her way thru college and she thinks that wrong, too. I said I think everyone should be able to go to college and that everyone is entitled to health insurance. I gave Europe as an example. She said Yeah, if you want 50% taxes! To this I said, Has anyone thought maybe the Europeans have a better society than us because everyone has health insurance and can go to college? She walked away from me.
So I guess her cousin shouldn't get a chance to better herself? Then these assholes would be the first ones to ridicule them for living on welfare. The only thing I can think of is these bastards have to have someone to look down on, since their self esteem must be at -0-.
I was in shock the rest of the afternoon. I just don't understand people anymore. Is this the way half the citizen of this country think? God help us. But more important God help the poor people. What has happened to people? The evilness of it scares the hell out of me.

[BlueEyedSon]

1. I would gladly pay 50% in taxes if I was getting paid in Pounds Sterling

:)

[sweetheart]

33. except the tax rates are not that high

So were you earning pounds sterling, likely you'd be more in the thirty
something percent area... even better!! :-)

[LeftCoast]

2. As a nation we've become bitter and mean

and short-sighted to boot.

[Patiod]

4. why is that?

what's with the whole "I got mine" mentality?

[CrispyQ]

85. Read "Don't Think of an Elephant" ...

George Lakoff explains the neo-con world view. Part of it is that people who rich are monetarily successful because God approves of their lifestyle & life choices. Very illuminating read.

This month's DU non-fiction book club: "Don't Think of an Elephant" by George Lakoff

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=209&topic_id=806&mesg_id=806

========

Also, as resources become more & more scarce the "I got mine" mentality will become more & more prevalent.

[ewagner]

3. It the myth

...the myth that we're all "self-made" and that if you are "good" and "righteous", then you will be rich......

In other words, more of the bullsh&& propagated by the RW noise machine.

[ohtransplant]

Take a deep breath.

Don't let these thugs get to you.

She should ponder, "There but for the grace of God, go I."

I wouldn't try to convince her of anything. She already knows everything.

She better hope she's never ill, lose her job, etc...

[tk2kewl]

21. thats the thing.

if she is a middle class parent and her husband (assuming, for arguments sake, he is the primary wage earner) were to become disabled of die prematurely, then what? Would she still feel the same way if it were her kids that couldn't get a college education because she could no longer afford it?

[ohtransplant]

27. Bullseye!

Instead of humility, and a sense of appreciation for her comfy life, she spews bile.

It's their "simulation" of Christianity

[neebob]

72. I wouldn't assume she can afford it now

My parents always thought that way, and they couldn't afford it. My mom said recently that she'd rather pay to bomb Afghanistan and Iraq into oblivion (or off the map or however I phrased it) than pay for someone else's health care. I'll bet she'd even rather pay Armstrong Williams to promote NCLB than pay for someone else's health care. I just don't want to know badly enough to ask. I only asked her the other thing because she got all alarmed and said, "I don't want to pay for someone else's health care!" in response to something else I'd said.

[tk2kewl]

79. No offense, but I am glad I don't know your mom

That is some very odd thinking. I really hope that is the super extereme position in this country. The stupidest thin about that attitude is that she'd probably be ahead of the game on benefits if health care and education were public, not "paying for someone else."

[neebob]

81. I don't think it's the super extreme position -

just the wingnut position. I could be wrong, but I think it's quite common.

[murray hill farm]

28. I agree...

just take a deep breath..and be grateful for whatever in your life brought u to be a compassions person..and not someone like her.

[d_b]

5. Sounds like every other Bush-bot I run into as well.

Too much right-wing radio, no doubt.

[Booster]

57. Bingo! Almost all mean-spirited Republicans I know listen to

Rush Limpdick on a daily basis and then Hannity. They get all of their talking points from Rush and spew them out like it was the word of God. It's like when my elderly mother says "Well, I read it in the paper, so it must be true". Rush should be treated like any traitor who tries to do away with truth and our freedoms. He's a cancer on this society and should be in jail for his drug abuse, just like he's always said others should be.

[Orangepeel]

82. hmmm... that's a chicken-and-egg problem

are they mean and nasty because they listen to rush and hannity or do they listen to rush and hannity because they are mean and nasty?

[WLKjr]

4 years of W + another 4 on the way

It's the way they ALL ACT. I have not met a republican that was a w supporter that is not just like that. They are all nothing but heartless mongols. Ignorant, arrogant, and violent minded. They are no worse than terrorists/dictators/warlords/facists


One day they will have to put up or shut up, becuase they will be the ones needing help. I say, look at them and make them realize the wrong in thier ways.

[roguevalley]

6. I hope she ends up living in her car. Sometimes that's the only

thing to make others plight real to some people. I wish I knew her cousin.

[MADem]

7. She'd then end up on the doorstep of the relative

...going to college, looking for a handout.

[Democrats_win]

13. Take "kindness" off the list of Republican moral values.

[mitchum]

69. I don't!

I want her to live behind a dumpster after she LOSES her car

[Love Bug]

8. Being a chimpy supporter is inconsistent with having a heart

But notice she didn't have any answers for you. People like that love to piss and moan about how someone is getting something from the government (which usually means they are jealous they aren't getting the same) but have no real solutions for the problems.

I always ask people who complain about welfare if they deduct their mortgage interest on their income taxes (this only works if they own a house). When they say "yes" I then point out to them the inconsistency of their view regarding entitlements.

[Robbien]

9. I believe the Right Wing Talk Radio

has reinforced this bigotry and feelings of superiority. Rush and Hannity are telling people it is okay not to want to give your money over to the government so that our society as a whole is better.

Before right wing talk radio, if people had these feelings they kept it to themselves and among their friends and family. Now they are going around saying "everyone knows" social programs are a big waste of money.

[hector459]

18. I wonder which ones of the "social subsidies" she is willing to give up?

Maybe her Social Security?
Maybe her tax write-off for mortgage interest?
Maybe her public education?
Maybe her church's tax exemptions?
Workman's comp?
Maybe she would sacrifice the 'luxary tax' write-offs for her wealthy employers?
Maybe she would want her corporate farm owners to give up their subsidies?
Offshore tax shelters?
Golden parachutes?

[paula777]

10. It's stunning isn't it. They really DON'T care about the poor or anyone

excepts for themselves. They are greedy and the only thing that concerns them is their bank account. I heard one freepers say she wasn't contributing any money to the asia / sir lanka, crisis because those people are majority muslims and ... I can't even repeat what she said, but yes, that is how they think and yes, there are 50% of them out there

[rkc3]

14. Jesus never cared for the poor - why should we?

At least that's what the post-9/11 Bible tells me.

[Ripley]

29. LOL!

Post-9/11 Bible...too funny!

[SheepyMcSheepster]

84. that is pretty clever

hehe post 9/11 bible

[susanna]

86. You're not kidding it's funny...!

I'm going to use that one of these days LOL.

[Greylyn58]

44. To these people money is their God

I don't consider any of these folks Christians. To Shrub and his crowd, their God is money and how much they can attain. Problem is, Jesus once said:

"How hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye f a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God."

So none of these people are true Christians and the poor slobs who follow them do so because they want to go to heaven and think these jerk-offs are gonna lead the way.

Only direction the neo-cons will lead them is down to Hell. Most of them are already there in spirit.


:grr:

[Mithras61]

88. That's actually a telling quotation...

if you know that "the eyey of the needle" is a very narrow, low passage through the outer wall of a walled city. It was just wide enough, and tall enough to let an unladen camel crawl through. If your camel was loaded, you had to remove all of your goods from it before you could bring it in. The implication of Jesus' phrasing is that for a wealthy person to enter heaven, getting rid of all their possesions (presumably to those more needy than they) would not be enough. Of course, I've never met anyone with any significant wealth who actually grasped this...

[eridani]

96. That's a lot of logic chopping to cover a simple translation error

In the original, switch one letter of the word for 'camel' and it becomes the word for 'rope.' Instantly you get a metaphor that actually makes sense.

[njdemocrat106]

94. "Ye cannot serve God and mammon" Matthew 6:24

I wholeheartedly agree with your post.

[housewolf]

11. Not to defend them....

but to perhaps explain a little.

Part of the conservative ideology equates success in the world with moral standing. They believe that if you are a good and moral person, you are successful in the world. And if you are poor, in the under-class, not financially successful - well that means that you are not a good or moral person.

Only the good and moral people deserve worldly success and having worldly success is proof that you are a good and moral person. And if you do not have worldly success it is proof that you are not a good and moral person.

It's pretty convoluted and circular thinking, but that's part of what they believe. It explains why they are willing to let wealthy scoundrels get away with all kinds of nefarious dealings - they are blind to them because they beliefe the wealthy are good and moral people.

If confronted with this belief they would probably try to edge their way around it, but this is a basis of conservative thought.

[rkc3]

16. It sounds like Puritanism on PCP.

[Bridget Burke]

24. Yup. The Elect prosper in the world.

By Doing Well, it means that you are Good.

Calvinism gone WILD!

[FizzFuzz]

74. great metaphor! n/t

[amazona]

19. hmmm jesus must have been a terrible person then

...since he ended up with no money and on the cross between a couple of thieves.

I have to say, I agree with your analysis. These folks have no sense and no soul. It is strictly the golden rule -- he who has the gold makes the rules.

The conservation movement is a breeding ground of communists
and other subversives. We intend to clean them out,
even if it means rounding up every birdwatcher in the country.
--John Mitchell, US Attorney General 1969-72

[Straight Shooter]

20. If material success is the hallmark of moral standing ...

... then Jesus and his disciples must have been some kind of evil bastards, eh?

If it weren't the excuse of "morality = prosperity," they would find another reason. Anything, but anything, rather than blame themselves as being part of the problem.

[Sir Jeffrey]

22. It is convoluted...and also anti-Christian...

I have stopped arguing with these hypocrites. I mean, there are only so many times I can refer them to the New Testament lessons of Jesus without just saying screw it.

[Flying Dream Blues]

37. I get it

but I couldn't help but think about the Monty Python scene where, if they throw you in the river and you drown, you're a witch, and if you float, you're a witch, too, so then they can burn you at the stake. (It was something like this, anyway!) It never occurs to them that their logic is at best, circular.

[sweetheart]

39. it is the basis of republican filth, not conservatism

Perhaps you meant capital "c" conservatism. A true conservative is
against using war except to defend ones own people, is against huge
government, fiscal irresponsibility, pork and corporate control of
government institutions, against massive media conglomerates obscuring
individual freedom of speech, against waging a drugs war on people who
wish to take drugs of their own free will, and against legislating
any sort of religious moralism in to a secular institution.

Given these original conservative principals, indeed your success or
lack of it in life, is your own free choice, and has nothing to do with
your moral standing whatsoever, merely your material standing.

Sadly conservatives (small "c") are a dying breed.

[housewolf]

40. Yes, I meant modern Conservatism n/t

[SmokingJacket]

45. Maybe if they got off their asses and met some real humans...

... they'd realize that good and moral people come in all forms: poor, rich, intelligent, not so intelligent, hard-working, lazy, lucky, unlucky, mentally challenged, too smart for their own good, etc.

Frankly... the worst people I've ever met are rich. Hm. Why is that?

[JaneDoughnut]

54. It's the American Dream's companion

The American Nightmare goes right along with it. I was fortunate enough to be born middle class and earn an academic scholarship. Done pretty well for myself. But I have known enough people on both sides of the tracks to realize that both wealth and poverty are largely inherited, there is no level playing field, and those who rise from poverty to financial success are the exceptions, not the rule.

But is there something wrong with an even larger chunk of our society than just Bush supporters when we immediately equate the pursuit of happiness with the pursuit of obscene wealth and property?

[Ferretherder]

71. Bingo! We have a winner!

Give the gentleman or lady a Kewpie doll!

Seriously, great assessment of the situation, I feel.

[Martin Eden]

91. Sounds like Lakeoff

I just finished Don't Look at the Elephant, and the morality of wealth idea was explained by the "strict father" model of the family (as opposed to the liberal "nurturing parent" model).

[rtassi]

12. I don't post often either,

but thank you for yours. I suspect that you will exhaust yourself of much needed energy in your attempt to lift your co-worker up from the pit of disdain she has succumb to. Take care of yourself and your family, while you can!

[MsTryska]

23. agreed....but also the energy could be better spent

making a silent prayer that something (like unemployment) will make her change her mind. i really think that's the only way these wingnuts will learn.

[Tace]

15. Here's Something That Would Really Blow Her Mind -- No Money

and a 10-hour workweek. No hunger. Economic equality.

Of course, don't bother casting pearls before swine.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=114x13604

[TrustingDog]

17. sounds like a 'you make your own luck' story. Gawd I hate that one.

[Sir Jeffrey]

25. Noam Chomsky said it was a matter of re-conditioning...

you have to be reprogrammed to not care that the elderly lady down the street is starving, since there is a fundamental level of human compassion virtually all of us are born with. It starts young, with the Horatio Alger myth of self-made men.

[Nadienne]

43. And it is indeed a myth.

The converse is that those who don't have the money to take care of themselves haven't earned the right to live. Which is completely ridiculous.

[Sir Jeffrey]

61. A personal example...

I had a lapse in my collegiate career of about three years. When I decided to return to college, I had to relocate out of my group of friends and family to a new area. I had trouble finding work and eventually had to accept work at Wal-Mart.

When I first started working there, I was under the impression that these were the "dregs" of society, since I had been conditioned to believe the big lie. What I saw was the corruption of the individual by the elitest corporate structure. I saw a system that rewarded sinister and evil behaviour (such as sleeping with your boss to get a promotion or those who worked there for 10 years being passed over for refusing to kiss ass). I saw a system that punished the hard-working by shifting the burden to them. I saw a system that exploited the elderly and religious by tying their employment to their faith. I saw good people continously question why they had ended up this way and yet saw nothing wrong with a system that pays a five year employee $7 per hour and the store manager $250K per year.

It really makes you wonder what it would take to get them to open their eyes.

[Nadienne]

80. My sister works there.

She's worked there for five years. She's 24 years old, has a son, and lives with our parents. There's no way she can make ends meet on her own, without any help.

And she is hard-working. And the burden is shifted to her, while others, who are ass-kissers, goof around their whole shift.

She doesn't like WalMart. But I think the reason why she stays is because she doesn't think she is qualified for better things. Does working for WalMart affect your self esteem?

[Sir Jeffrey]

87. I think so..

especially if that is all you are doing. I wasn't as affected as some of the others my age since I was in college. I was always going to go to law school, so I saw my time there as more of a social science experiment a la "Nickel and Dimed." (BTW I was fired for requesting a transfer to a closer Wal-Mart.)

As far as self-esteem goes, there is a sinking sensation one experiences just by accepting work there. I mean, you are agreeing to work your ass off for a multi-billion dollar corporation for a pittance, no health insurance and a 10 percent discount (company scrip).

After that, they grind you down if you don't play the game. The people who NEED the work and BELIEVE in the Horatio Alger myth have it the worst because they will have their virtues and good values used against them by those who use others without accepting any responsibility.

Another example: my wife (before we were married) was berated openly for minor things that others would get away with. I saw it having an effect on her self-esteem and advised her to quit. It was ruining her vision of herself and caused her a lot of grief and doubt.

Your sister might be experiencing the same thing, but without the advantage of being able to quit. My wife's situation was much different from your sister's, but there has to be something better for her. There are alternatives available to her (part time college, better work, student loans, etc.), she may just need to be told what they are. Sometimes hearing it from someone else is all it takes.

[housewolf]

47. "us" vs. "them"

It's about how big you "us" is.

It's human nature to see people as part of "me or us" and "they and them" but what makes the difference is how big your "us" is. If your "us" is small and includes only your family and small circle of friends/acquaintences, then you sort of need to hold tight to what's yours and build defenses and protections against a huge "them" out there, and you need to hold yourself and your group as specially entitled and your compassion is limited.

If you have a big "us" - where your sense of "us" includes bigger groups, maybe even nations or the world in toto, then you have a compassion that extends to others not in your direct cicle and you have fewer enemies in the world.

Something about modern Conservatism requires enemies...

[Sir Jeffrey]

65. Absolutely...

I just finished re-reading 1984. I couldn't help thinking of the "Two Minutes Hate" as THE PRIME EXAMPLE of modern day talk radio and Fox News.

[sinkingfeeling]

26. I would suggest to your co-worker that she either read

Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America by Barbara Ehrenreich or attempt the experiment herself. Bring up the fact that most people in poverty in USA are WORKING...most at more than one job. Ask her if she's stopped to figure out what it will cost her and her family when Bush&Co finishes converting the US to an 'ownership' society. Let's say she's 30...she will need to put at least $10K a year into IRA or 401K for retirement, then she will need to pay $6K/yr. if employer doesn't pay for family health care and at the same time, stash an additional $8-10K away for 'retirement' health care. And I hope that she is one of those who believe in no birth control, so has lots of kids....will need to have $40-60K per child for college education. If you're making a reasonable $50K per year, trying to own a home, this probably can't be done.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0805063897/qid=1105654701/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/104-8978065-8107944

[housewolf]

48. Good suggestion!

That's a great book to give conservatives.

[Tace]

30. Her Comment About Free College Shows Her Profound Ignorance

Society benefits way more from a person's college education than the person who gets the education. What a butthead.

For example, a person becomes a doctor and makes a good living. Yet, thousands of folks get treated by this doctor. Same with all skilled trades and many professions.

[Sir Jeffrey]

66. Don't forget that a professional actually pays much more in taxes...

than someone in a lower bracket.

[txaslftist]

31. Just stay away from the psycho bushbot...

...and keep lurking here. Where good hearts congregate!

:toast:

[maumcc1]

41. Thank you all for being here

I'm surrounded by the heartless at work. I'm starting to feel like I'm in a horror movie, nothing but evil zombies around me. Thank God for this forum, it gives me hope. Ever since the tsunami, I've spent about 3 evenings a week just crying. I feel guilty sitting in the comfort of my own home when there are so many people suffering. But I don't know what to do about it. I'm not rich, but if I was, you can bet I'd be helping people. I feel like the agony of the world right now has manifested itself in me. I can't understand how people can be so uncaring. I never will be able to understand it. But, I'm heartened that so many people have responded to my post. Thank you all, good will overcome evil eventually.

[Ripley]

42. Or we're all going to Die in agonizing Torment!

Just kidding! We're on the same line of thinking...I posted something about Pod People below (sort of evil zombies). It's almost like being in an altered state ALL OF THE TIME and wondering why so many people can't see what you see. This place helps.

[housewolf]

49. Hey Maumcc1,

Keep comin' back here and start posting more! - See what a great discussion you started??? You'll find lots of friends here - common ideas, willing listeners and advisors, like-minded people to share with.

It makes a difference and it helps.

[maumcc1]

64. I will!

Ever since the election, I've felt so isolated. I tend to brood too much and then iertia sets in. A weakness of mine that I have to push myself to overcome.

[housewolf]

67. Many here have felt the same way,

you are not along. You are among friends here, no need to isolate.

[Ouabache]

76. You don't have to be rich to help people.

Don't become so forlorn that you do not do what you ARE able to do. You are able to do something for someone. Not a lot, but something. It will take your mind off of your forlorness if you spend a little energy figuring out what it is you can actually do for someone else. Sometimes our greatest gift can be a LITTLE time. Think random acts of kindness too. There is a random act of kindness waiting for you to perform it. Somewhere close by too.

[ktowntennesseedem]

32. I wish your co-worker was an oddity, but I'm afraid she's quite common.

There are many like her that think anyone getting a hand-out of anykind from the government is just lazy. If they would all just work harder, they could get by without any help. Children going hungry? Those lazy people shouldn't be having so many kids if they can't afford to feed them. The elderly trying to afford medicine? If they hadn't been so lazy their whole life they would have saved up more so they could afford whatever they needed in their old age. I could go on and on, but in the eyes of people like your co-worker, they are all just lazy, worthless people who are draining money out of the pockets of hard-working people. I know, because I have had quite a few similar conversations, and overheard many, many more.

Like others who have posted on this tread, it's interesting to watch them change their tune when they lose their jobs or their insurance, or when some other tragedy hits them that normally only happens to "lazy" people.

[riverwalker]

34. "The evilness of it scares the hell out of me"

I hear you. I have come to the conclusion that if there were concentration camps built down the road, like Triblinka, or Buchenwald, or Gitmo, my neighbors, my co-workers would do nothing. NOTHING. They would shrug in apathy and carry on as usual, and pretend they don't know. I have no doubt about it, and that is a horrible thing to know.

[Ripley]

38. I feel the same way.

I'll never forget the day Bush's Invasion started - when my neighbor (who works part time at a church) ran outside yelling in an excited voice "Cal, the bombing started on TV!!" and her two sons (about 14 and 12) laughed and ran inside. I was outside gardening because I didn't want to see it and here is a mother encouraging her two sons to rejoice in the death and destruction of another country. I felt like marching over to her house and berating her, but I just sat down and felt like someone kicked me in the gut.

How can we be so different than these people? Are they Pod People or Something?????

[Old and In the Way]

35. As if food stamps are the cause of our social ills.

These poor programmed bastards. While they get all hopped up over a crummy few billion dollars that helps make this a better society, we now have trillions going to a small class of people through tax breaks and corporate welfare. And these 'anti-welfare' people are totally clueless about that.

This is the crux of the problem. I've heard this rant for 30 years. Of course it only applies "to those people"...until you are the one who suddenly needs a helping hand.

It took the Depression to make make Republicans understand the value of a Democratic government. It appears that we'll need to learn that lesson all over again.

[stanwyck]

36. Back away from the radio

this woman was spouting all the half-truths and flat out lies of hate-radio. She would do herself a favor by changing to the classical station. The script is always the same. "Someone she knows" is getting a free ride. Not likely. There's always more to that scenario. What's really showing through is her envy and bitterness. She's unhappy. Ergo, she supports Bush. He'll make those people pay. For her being unhappy.
Sigh.

[tanyev]

46. Just wait till she needs some help.

The song changes considerably then.

[JaneDoughnut]

50. I am as baffled as you

By those who can see the world that way, and by those who don't see the world that way but have still supported Bush through ignorance or fear.

I just posted some similar treasononous thoughts myself, actually: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2947794

[superconnected]

51. I consider human compassion to be normal

I don't understand how nearly all conservatives missed out on it.

It's looking more like a biological mishap than simply bad upbringing, everyday. Dunno..

[Nadienne]

52. Maybe you should remind you co-worker

that if we get Universal Health Care and taxes go up, she would still be paying less for her health care than she now is paying for her health care. Remind her of all the money going to the CEOs, lobbyists, and stock holders of insurance companies and prescription drug companies (whose research brings us all kinds of pills that are constantly advertised on TV with side effects that include nauseau, light-headedness, headaches, etc). These people are profitting from our sicknesses. They are why the cost of health care here is so high. Which means (duh!) we're paying for more than we're getting.

[Mike Niendorff]

53. People like this just don't get the reality.

What good is a low tax rate when you're back to living in third-world conditions and the only jobs you can find only pay poverty wages?

Progressives *built* the middle class in this country, and people like her are little more than the spoiled grandchildren who think that they're just *entitled* to this great lifestyle they've inherited simply because of their own inherent goodness. The more of the progressive legacy they chop away from under themselves, the more they're in for a very rude awakening. At present, they just don't grasp either the economics or the history involved. They don't appreciate the sacrifices of the generations that went before them that built this nice comfortable middle class lifestyle that they now feel is their birthright. They just don't realize that the laissez-faire system they're being trained to promote *demolishes* the middle class, and with it their own lifestyles. They're so convinced of their own inherent superiority (be it moral, industrious, cultural, or anything else) that they actually believe that they're being *held back* by the very mechanisms that have built and sustained the middle class over three generations in this country.

They also lack any sense of perspective as to what life would be like if they were simply thrown to the wolves of the business community, without the reforms and protections of the progressive era to keep at least some of the natural predation in check. They think it's rough paying $100 in taxes? Try paying $1000 to every wannabe Ken Lay of the world when there's no regulatory agency around to stop them from raping the public at every turn. Try losing 90% of their paycheck because their boss decides that Indonesian wage-scales are lots more profitable than the nice middle class American ones that were built brick-by-brick by a century of organized labor.

Anyone with a sense of historical perspective and a basic understanding of economics can see -- plainly -- how people like this are cutting their own throats. But the right-wing propaganda channels don't talk about it, so the propagandized listeners don't think about it, and the damage continues to grow.

"If only there were no taxes, and no government regulation! If only the Ken Lays of the world were free to do whatever they wanted! Why, we'd all be millionaires by now! Well, except for all those morally inferior progressives, but who cares about them, because they're just holding me back anyway -- after all, I'm superior! Look at the nice middle class family I grew up in! We have values! And culture! And character! Rush said so, so it must be true. So, here's to the death of the New Deal! After all, what does a morally and socially superior middle-class person like me need with the public interest anyway! My own greatness and superiority will lift me up to riches! It's just the natural order of things."

(and so on, and so on, and so on)


MDN

[Stirk]

55. This is Ronald Reagan's REAL legacy.

Reagan's propaganda was largely about demonizing poor people. For Reaganites, people were poor because they wanted to be poor. They were flawed, lazy,, dishonest, lesser humans who deserved abuse. They were just a drag on the system... leaches on the society built by real people.

Remember his infamous "welfare queen"? It's still part of the language. Conservatives still bitch about her.

[JaneDoughnut]

56. I think I might WANT to be poor

Or at least, I've been seriously considering dropping out of capitalism altogether. I'm not currently poor. But a life goal of mine that I'm slowly moving towards is to become independent from a corrupt system and take from the Earth and society only what I need to survive.

So far, money has certainly not kept me fulfilled.

On Edit: This is a great topic. It has really made me think. Thanks for posting.

[bobbieinok]

62. didn't start with Reagan...I heard this a lot in the 60s

maybe Reagan just made it totally, 'christianly' respectable

[itzamirakul]

58. I bet she's a very religious bitch and

goes to church every Sunday to learn about Jesus who defended the poor on nearly every page his words are on. (Maybe a little exaggeration - on a lot of pages, let's say.)

[jmm]

59. Didn't you know?

Taxes are only ok when they fund the government's control over people's sex lives and women's bodies and are a source of funding for faith based programs.

[GreenPartyVoter]

60. Amazing what the ME! ME! ME! mentality does to a society

-------------------------------------
Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/

[Cleita]

63. Conservatives really think that you don't deserve anything

if you can't buy it. So if you are six years old and need medical care and your parents can't afford it because their parents couldn't afford a decent education for them to become better wage earners, it's the six-year-olds fault because I guess they should have picked parents who were better wage earners. You can see the flaws in this line of reasoning, yet fat, rich Republicans have been convincing poor Republicans that this is the way things should be all the while they are enjoying the benefits of our tax money as corporate welfare.

[Lorien]

68. An educated person has a better chance at getting a good job

or starting their own successful business. Over their lifetimes, they will more than pay back the cost of their education in taxes and income pumped back into the economy.

[Lefty48197]

70. You hit the nail on the head

"The only thing I can think of is these bastards have to have someone to look down on, since their self esteem must be at -0-."

That mental illness gives both conservatism and racism.

[Skittles]

73. I know the feeling, maumcc1

a coworker recently commented to me that the problem with Abu-grahib is that we, meaning Americans, "got caught". I'm disgusted with what conservatives are today - selfish, greedy bastards who just don't care about anything that doesn't directly affect them. I'm sick of it.

[errorbells]

75. l have lost friends that think this way too.

One of them is very wealthy and has
been on disability for a decade or more.

She is not in need of help...voted for W
and had a fit when I mentioned the Moral Majority
not being a good thing. That was before the election.
I cut her loose..can no longer tolerate these people.

I never said what I was thinking most of the time,
because it would not have changed the way she thought.

I feel your pain, it is very scary!

[madison2000]

77. I've heard these arguments too

Its amazing how they can believe in the superiority of nation when we have so many people who do not get what they need.

I had no health insurance for 3 years- a Repuke told me that everyone in this country has health insurance, they just have to go to an emergency room. After I got through explaining what the ER is for and what they will and won't do for you, he insisted that our system is better than countries like Australia and Canada because they have to wait for operations and such. I explained that if you have no health insurance you can wait for YEARS to get into a situation where you do have insurance to have an operation you need. And I told him that a friend of mine died at age 42 from lack of health insurance- she had stage four ovarian cancer by the time she got herself to a doctor to report her symptoms. He still didn't get it.

[linazelle]

78. I think people should be provided equal education...not food stamps

I have seen welfare become a crutch for too many people. Many need a wake up call. I am not heartless, but it doesn't make sense for this country to dole out welfare incessantly to almost anybody forever and ever. There have to be limits to that and there are now with workfare. Yes, there will be people caught in the transition between reliance on welfare and self reliance. They need help. But where does it end?

[errorbells]

83. Have you ever been on Welfare?

I was on it in the early 80's for a year and it was no fun,
I assure you. The people I stood in line with did not
want to be there either.

Please trust me when I say that the majority of people
do not want to be on it "forever and ever".

Would you rather see the streets fill up with homeless,
hungry people?

[linazelle]

93. Maybe people don't want to be on it forever and ever but they are

I have never been on welfare, but my mother had to use it once for a very short time when she was unemployed, divorced and raising two kids. I admire her to this day for not succumbing and getting off in a few months when she found a job.

But again, in my experience, I have seen way too many able bodied people do just that. They find it easier to stand in the lines and wait for the mailman than to do what it takes to make a living. Many of these people come from homes where generation after generation has received welfare--they don't know what it means to work at all. That's ridiculous, and that's when welfare becomes the crutch that I consider it instead of an aid.

I know that there are parents, like my mother, who really need welfare to raise their families. But the system is out of control in many ways.

[Bridget Burke]

97. If you can't give us the names & addresses....

A few profiles of way these too many able-bodied people on welfare might give credence to your theory.

[sffreeways]

90. Single Adult recieves

$128.00 cash
every two weeks
$139.00 Food Stamps
once a month

Do you honestly believe there are people that want to live that way for any extended period of time ? It can't be done.

The notion that there are people that collect welfare because it's the alternative to working and they are lazy is a myth.

Welfare sucks and people that collect it need it and they need our compassion and understanding too.

[Heddi]

101. Can you eat a school book? Do you cook protractors for your kids' dinner?

A large part of the people who are on food stamps have children. Why are you forcing a child to go hungry or undernourished because mom or dad is "able bodied" and could be doing something better.

Sure--send them to school. Then what? What jobs are to be had? What degrees can you get in less than 1 or 2 years NOT INCLUDING pre-requisites. What about child care? What about educational expenses? What about the rent and the food and gas bill and car maintenance and gas money and shoes for growing children?

My grandmother is 67 years old. She gets $400 a month social security, 350 of which goes to pay her mortgage.

After TWO YEARS of living on $50 a month, she was finally able to quality for food stamps.

She gets FORTY SEVEN DOLLARS A MONTH FOOD STAMPS. Her ENTIRE income is $447 a month for food, utilities, mortgage, medicine, clothing, gas, and god forbid ANYTHING should come up that costs more than the pittance she's able to budget for each of these.

This woman started working when she was 12 years old. She didn't retire until she was 65...yeah, she should have worked the extra 7 years to get more SS money, but she was forced to quit work because of 2 arthritic knees and 57 years of standing on her feet for 12 hours a day. Before she "retired" (ha ha), she was working 10 hour days at the local KFC just to make ends meet.

So you tell me---if my grandma didn't have food stamps, how is she supposed to eat? What is she supposed to eat? How much more can she divy out that $50 remaining from social security than she already divys?

As it is, she doesn't turn on her heater because the electric bill is too high. She sits in the dark all day and night because the electric bill is too high. She lives in a shitty neighborhood, so selling the house won't do any good because she owes more to the bank than anywhere NEAR what she'd get for it.

So you cut off her welfare---what the FUCK is a 67 year old woman going to go to school for? She's already worked 90% of her fucking life, and now you're saying too fucking bad for her, adn the MILLIONS of others who are like her and CANNOT feed themselves without foodstamps---

Yes, there have to be limits, but not at the expense of other people's life and health and well being.

Although, by the tone of your post, she's just a lazy old bitty who should shovel snow for the neighbors if she wants luxuries like "food" and "electricity"

:eyes:

I pray you NEVER NEVER NEVER find yourself on the receiving end of a bad situation. Easy to cast stones and call for "limits" when you most likely have a pantry full of food and a house that is heated above 50 degrees. Easy to call for limits when you don't have to watch your grandma sit in a house, in the summer, sweating to death because she KNOWS that if she even turns the AC on for ONE DAY, the bill will be higher than she can afford...

real easy. Real FUCKIN easy.

[adigal]

89. It's the Limbaugh mentality

Let's give the rich back more of their hard-earned money, but stop the housing assistance to the mother of 4 who cleans offices at night for a living, or the LPN who has to work 60 hours a week because they are TRYING TO STEAL FROM AMERICA!!! Greedy bastards - how dare they try to take money from the wealthy to feed or house their kids. They don't deserve it. (sarcasm, of course)

Values crowd, my ass. How many of them ever volunteer one hour a week to something other than themselves and worry about anything other than their neighbor's house, which is bigger than their's, or the new car their cousin bought, which is more expensive than their's. They pay the price with high levels of divorce and dysfunction.

[leesa]

92. The really sad part is that she will be first in line DEMANDING public

benefits when/if she or her husband are out of work. My brother is like this, yet he is laid off from his trucking job each winter and goes on the public dole. Doesn't see the irony AT ALL. Remodeled his kitchen on public funds as well.

[earth mom]

95. Glad that you posted this thread.

It is meaningful to me because I picked my user name because it means "do unto others as you would have them do onto you".

To me, this issue is at the very core of what is dividing us as a country. The cold, callous and judgemental treatment of people by the right fills me with gut wrenching dismay as well as absolute outrage. I am deeply disillusioned that at their very core, in their hearts (!) these people don't care for humanity-they do not care for anyone but themselves. I've always believed in the good of people and this realization that those on the right actually don't care one iota-has come as such a rude awakening. I post on another board, and I can't believe the hatred that spews from the freepers there. It is vile and it has begun to rub off on me...except my dislike is aimed at them. I really don't want to feel this way because I don't want to turn into a left wing version of them. Though...I must admit that it feels good to let off steam towards them when they tick me off-LOL!

But seriously, it absolutely positively just blows my mind that THEY don't care if people are dying in Iraq for no reason; that people are getting outsourced and losing their homes; that people have no health care and will lose everything if they get sick ; that people are working like dogs only to live as the working poor; that * & Co plan on screwing up social security for people that have no other retirement; that they have little regard for the disabled and elderly who may as well be disposable; that on a daily basis there are millions of people in this country who are homeless and hungry and without hope or even any options.

It kills me. It kills me that they don't care. I don't get it and I don't understand how they can look themselves in the mirror and see the kind of extreme hatred that lives in their very own eyes and being and be able to live with it. How can they?! For even one moment?!

[earthboundmisfit]

100. The selfish mentality

Several years ago my brother came up with a term for this mentality: "Hooray for me and f*ck you!" It seems to prove increasingly right on as times goes by!

[newportdadde]

98. Unfortunately there are quite a few people like your coworker out there.

I encounter a lot of them in my workplace IT as these are folks who grew up middle class, had both parents around and supportive, had money for school, make good money now and think its so easy anyone can do it..

These types of folks I think of as the following:

First Phase: Anyone can do it, I earned every bit of it, I'm so great, no way I got lucky.

Second Phase(after loosing job and needing gov assistance): Well its okay if I'm getting assistance because I've paid soooooo much into it and I'm not like everyone else.
This is their most vulnerable phase. I've had friends in this stage say things like "Thank god for assistance or I would have lost my house" etc. They are at their most humble.

Third Phase(after getting new job): I'm great look at me, I never needed assistance really anyways. If its so easy for me to get a job(took over a year even as a professional programmer with degree) then why can't anyone else.


Thats how I see these folks.

[sinkingfeeling]

99. What will be interesting to watch is these middle class folks

facing reality when the interest rate goes skyward on that adjustable mortgage they took out so they could buy a house well beyond their means. Or when the real estate market dives and they discover those 'oh-so-easy' equity loans they took to buy the new SUV or plasma TV, left them owing more on their house than it's worth. So many 'middle' class families are on the brink of destruction... one job layoff, one major illness, increasing credit card interest rates because of a single late payment.... I also wonder how they think their kids can continue in the middle class with 'service industry' jobs.