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My argument with a Repug on another board about Iraq, this is good

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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 06:08 PM
Original message
My argument with a Repug on another board about Iraq, this is good
Republican...

"The war could have been purely for oil for all I care, we were able to go in there, and yes, I actually would condone an all out Middle East war against terrorism. IMO, it's better to do that than to sit around and act peacefully while they kill and possibly strike us again and again. When would it take to convince liberals to fight? Lucitania sinking got us into WWI, Pearl Harbor got us into WWII, and 9/11 took us into the war on terrorism. All of that history may be partially handed to us by the government, but it got us into those 3 wars and we went through the first 2, we can go through a third."

Me...

"So how did regime change in Iraq make the US safer? The Iraq war did absolutely nothing to fight groups like Al Quaeda, all it did was take out Saddam Hussein who was a contained dictator who wouldn't even sleep in the same place for more than one night because he was in such fear of his life. The premise of the war was that Saddam's Weapons of Mass Destruction posed a threat to the US. Saddam's WMD's posed absolutely no threat to the US on account of, THEY DIDN'T EXIST. Saddam Hussein himself didn't pose any threat to the US because he was a 70 year old contained dictator.

If we had wanted to fight a real war on terror, why didn't we send tose 100,000 troops to find Osama Bin Laden who is a proven threat to the US on acount of, HE WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR 9/11!

Why don't we spend some of that $200 billion and counting on energy alternatives so that we aren't funding terrorism and brutal middle eastern regimes every time we go to pump gas into our cars?

Why don't we firm up our borders, especially with Mexico? As mentioned on another thread about immigration, it's pretty easy for Mexicans to hop the border and get into the US. What's stopping terrorists from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, or Iran from catching a flight to Mexico and jumping the border into the US?

Here's the bottom line, invading Iraq did NOTHING to fight terror. Al Quaeda and other terrorist groups are just as easily able to sneak into the US, get a bomb or hijack a plane, and kill another few thousand Americans.

BTW, I read from your profile that you are a 20 year old male. If you're so supportive of America entering an "all out Middle East war against terrorism", then why haven't you signed up to help fight it yet?"
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cheezus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. why haven't you signed up to help fight it yet?
what? that's what poor people are for
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
2. I'm sure you'll never hear from this 'patriot' again
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Megawatt Donating Member (118 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Is it odd to issue this challenge on a board
Edited on Thu Jan-13-05 07:17 PM by Megawatt
that routinely "Tillmanizes" people who do join up, if they appear to be conservative or in favor of this war. Examples include most famously Tillman , but also other threads such as Dr Laura's son's enlistment, articles about older retirees who were OK with being called back up, reservists volunteering to go over etc.

In those examples the people and their choices are never respected. They are generally described as being naive, uninformed, poor, looking only for college money, not very well read, not "in the know' like the elites on this board etc

Just curious.
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Sterling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Because it is stupid at this point to join up, but.....
It is much more respectable than letting someone else fight your invasion.
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RobertSeattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. Send him the enlistment form...
http://www.dior.whs.mil/forms/DD0004.PDF

Even better, fill it out in advance.
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
4. 'I didn't mean ME, silly!'
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Astrochimp Donating Member (212 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. been using the 'why dont you join' for more.....
than a year on one, who now claims he has enlisted.

So now it's 'why you still posting and not in basic'
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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
6. no american government ever publicly blackmailed the country before
into supporting the war by sending the troops to iraq's borders before the UN gave the go ahead.. this effectively forced congress to support bush....the UN has called the war illegal btw
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Megawatt Donating Member (118 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. Desert Storm 1991 - 500,000 US troops on the
Iraq-Saudi Arabia-Kuwait border from Nov 1990 to Jan 1990. Congressional authorization was voted on Jan 12 the war started 5 days later.

http://www.military.com/Resources/HistorySubmittedFileView?file=history_gulfwar.htm
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Megawatt Donating Member (118 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
7. Good ideas
but I wouldn't wait to find alternative energy sources to get off the middle east oil. If I were king for a day we would immediatly stop importing oil. Might make the price go up a little - but I bike to work and with the little driving I do , I could afford gas at $10 a gallon.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
21. That's more of a political un-reality than gay rights at this time
Sad but true.
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agarrett1 Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
10. May I play?
 
I'll try to give some answers to these. They may not be the same ones your friend would give if he does answer, but these are my answers to your questions. I'll add that I appear to be one of the few on this board who do support the Iraq War - and the more general War on Terror.

...The premise of the war was that Saddam's Weapons of Mass Destruction posed a threat to the US. Saddam's WMD's posed absolutely no threat to the US on account of, THEY DIDN'T EXIST. Saddam Hussein himself didn't pose any threat to the US because he was a 70 year old contained dictator.

Well, no, that wasn't the whole premise of the war - although it was one reason, I grant. There was also the fact that Hussein was providing financial support to terrorist organizations (Hamas, especially - not al Qaeda). Further, there was the fact that he had violated the cease fire agreement with us - we never actually ended the 1991 Gulf War, it was only a cease fire. Finally, even the WMD question was a little broader - the real problem was that the sanctions regime wasn't holding, it certainly wouldn't have lasted much longer. We believed that after it fell, he would acquire WMDs, so we had to be sure he wasn't in power when it did fall.
There were, in short, multiple reasons for going to war with Iraq. Perhaps none alone would have been sufficient, but take together, they were. I think it was unfortunate that President Bush felt he had to compress things to a single reason, and then picked one that was wrong. But only unfortunate - it does not negate the other reasons for going in.

If we had wanted to fight a real war on terror, why didn't we send tose 100,000 troops to find Osama Bin Laden who is a proven threat to the US on acount of, HE WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR 9/11!

Sure. Where shall we send them? If you know, please tell us. I'll do my part and try to get the message up to those who can do something about it.
We had, and still have, troops in Afghanistan. Shall we invade Pakistan? Those seem the two most likely places to find bin Laden. But he could be elsewhere as well. Assuming other countries are less than eager to have 100,000 American troops trouncing through their territory, how many wars should we start to look for him?
And let's not forget than bin Laden is not the only terrorist in the world? Shall we do this for all of them? Or just for those who have managed to cause a major attack on us?
Yes, this is at least a little sarcastic. And I would have been more certain of my defense here if we hadn't had the recent reports of officials who think we're better off with bin Laden alive. But even with that doubt, I'm not sure how you would have those 100,000 troops hunting for bin Laden.

Why don't we firm up our borders, especially with Mexico? As mentioned on another thread about immigration, it's pretty easy for Mexicans to hop the border and get into the US. What's stopping terrorists from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, or Iran from catching a flight to Mexico and jumping the border into the US?

Excellent idea, and I agree with you - we should tighten our borders. A lot. Sadly, the leadership in both parties appears to want loose, or even open, borders. President Bush has been getting warnings from some Republicans that they will fight him on his guest worker / amnesty proposal. National Review has warned that this issue could split the Republican party. I'm not as sure what the feeling is in the Democratic Party, but among the Repubs, this is one where the grass roots differ strongly with the President.
While I really hope that we do tighten the borders, though, I don't see a conflict with doing this while fighting a war. In fact, and for the very reasons you list, I think we should do this even more during a war.

Why don't we spend some of that $200 billion and counting on energy alternatives so that we aren't funding terrorism and brutal middle eastern regimes every time we go to pump gas into our cars?

We already spend money researching energy alternatives. Some of it is federal funded, some private. I know the academic side of this fairly well, and the research is ongoing. Maybe it should be funded more, but so far very little of the research has been terribly promising. Oil, and gasoline, are simply too cheap to get out of the ground, so even the inefficiencies in the burning process are easily outweighed. The alternatives, to date, have all been vastly more expensive (inherently, even allowing for ramping to full scale, non-prototype production).
There are two ways this can change. One is to keep pumping oil until it becomes scarcer, and the cost of getting it out of the now-harder areas is matched by new sources. The other is to keep researching and hope for a breakthrough. We're still doing that too. Now, $200 billion could make a difference in this effort. And it might succeed. But there's nothing really promising on the horizon (that I know of, at least), so I wouldn't consider that a good bet.

Here's the bottom line, invading Iraq did NOTHING to fight terror. Al Quaeda and other terrorist groups are just as easily able to sneak into the US, get a bomb or hijack a plane, and kill another few thousand Americans.

That may be the case. On the other hand, we haven't faced a large-scale domestic terrorist attack since 9/11. And we've killed a fair number of people in al Qaeda and other terrorist groups who are now fighting us in Iraq. It is at least possible that these events are related.
Further, I think the goal of the fight in Iraq is the correct one for fighting terrorists. Overthrow the dictators, and help the people towards a democratic government. Iraq will have the second elections in the Arab world - the first were the Palestinians, under Israeli occupation. I do not see any better way to win the real war.
And yes, I am well aware of all that we have done wrong to help build up the dictators in the first place. Having done evil in the past, though, is not an excuse to forgive it in the present. Feel free to consider our hardships and deaths in this war as payment for our sins.

BTW, I read from your profile that you are a 20 year old male. If you're so supportive of America entering an "all out Middle East war against terrorism", then why haven't you signed up to help fight it yet?"

Probably because we have an all-volunteer military, and they are doing the job quite well. I think it's not a contradiction to support a cause without being right in the middle of it.
Well, I suspect this post will draw quite a bit of comment. I come to this board specifically for the challenge to my general ideas. I'd appreciate thoughtful argument. Enjoy.

Drew Garrett
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Mz Pip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Actually
the all volunteer army could use a bit of help. 40% are National Guard Reservists and are ill prepared and ill equipped to do tour after tour after tour so those who support the war (but have endless excuses) don't have to go. Support the war? Volunteer. Become part of the solution that you so support and give the guys who are fighting for their lives a bit of real support.

Mz Pip
:dem:
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agarrett1 Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Not again, thank you
I was over there during Desert Storm (with the 1706th ARWP if anyone is interested) and have no particular desire to return, thanks. Anyway, during that war, we also served with some activated National Guardsmen. I remember one in particular - one of the docs - who was extremely ticked off at being activated. I have no doubts whatsoever that this has not changed.

On the other hand, he did join the Guard. The ones I felt bad for were the inactive reservists - folks who had left the military, but still had their names on the rolls, and were called up. Guardsmen train regularly, and are paid for it, so that they can be called up for wars. Reservists generally consider themselves done with it, and forget about the military entirely. I've got much more sympathy for them.

But in answer to your challenge, I decline. I'm not going to serve again, and I will still continue to support the war. Arguments, or future events, may yet persuade me I was wrong. But a challenge like that - well, no.

Drew Garrett
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
agarrett1 Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Explain, please
I gather this is another way of referring to "drinking the Kool Aid." I've seen the phrase a few times (this isn't even the first time it's been directed at me...) but I'm not sure of the origin. My best guess would be a reference to Jim Jones and his cult - would that be correct?

Just trying to satisfy curiosity on this one.

Drew Garrett
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yankeedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. its a Jim Jones thing
Read this board a little while, the error of your assumptions about Iraq
will be apparent.
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Ouabache Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. So you are down with 140,00 troops in Iraq since, as you put it,
"how you would have those 100,000 troops hunting for bin Laden"?

So your reply is that since the original poster has no definite plan other than finding Bin Laden it is ok to send 140,000 troops careening into Iraq? With broad rationalizations like that you could justify invading New Zealand.
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agarrett1 Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. No, that wasn't my point
I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. It appeared to me that the original poster was claiming we shouldn't be in Iraq, because we could use those 100,000+ troops to hunt for bin Laden. I was trying to point out that we don't really have a way to use those 100,000+ in that particular hunt.

That point was not making an argument for putting them in Iraq. Instead, it was saying that we didn't need to weight the value of hunting for bin Laden vs. fighting in Iraq, as the two goals use different assets.

I hope that's clearer.

Drew Garrett
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. Not correct.
Edited on Thu Jan-13-05 09:04 PM by girl gone mad
Iraq will have the second elections in the Arab world - the first were the Palestinians, under Israeli occupation. I do not see any better way to win the real war.

Ummm.. no.

It would help your case greatly if you actually bothered to learn a thing or two about the Middle East before spewing random RW sounding talking points.

Also, it's patently ridiculous to say that the Iraq war might have been a success because there have not been any large scale attacks on US soil. If you look at the history of Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations, you'll quicly discover that they have a pattern of spending years planning their next attack. They just don't operate on the same time frame as us.

There's a much greater chance that the Iraq war has been a failure as part of the War on Terror, because recruitment for Al Qaeda has increased as a direct result of the US invasion of Iraq and our image throughout the Middle East has never been lower.
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pretzel4gore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. the only terrorist affecting us is the bush criminals
okay?
back in the 90's, every week there was a bit in newspapers saying 'extremist kill 50 (100)(75)(90)...etc' in algeria, and that was it. Just a lil filler for important crap like michael jackson's got a house! or so on....once, a group of thugs stopped a bus and slaughtered 100 plus people including a mother with her infant, this for 'wearing dresses and listening to music'...yet nothing made the mainstream news, too fixated at time on oj simpson or monica etc to look... 911 was a domestic US political event having nothing to do with anyone beyond the cover that cia agent osama bin missing provides his pals the bush criminals, whom you seem infatuated with
:( ....the fukking liars rule the world and they can go to hell....
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