There are people who believe

[vetwife]

and I have to know. Most of you have known me a very long time.
Why do most threads have a post or more than one post that bashes people of faith? I stand up and speak out but I don't intentionally
make fun of people with faith and this has gotten worse.

I need to know the reasoning behind it. Were we not supposed to be tolerant of regions, people of all faith, and not be part of the problem of class warfare? I have seen people posting how stupid it is to have children....How stupid it is to have a house or home with over 400 sq. ft. and the type of cars we drive..and it always comes back to people of faith.

I am not starting a flamefest , I really want to know because I feel dissent is a good thing and so is debate but constantly bashing people who have faith is a good way to make me leave this community.
We have a right to believe or not to believe but discussing politics is one thing, but bashing people of faith is another and there are quite a few Duers who do have faith. Why are you not speaking up?

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. I think it's a kneejerk reaction to the fundagelical theocracy getting

forced on us. Heck, _I_ am a person of faith and _I_ get sick of religious crap too. *l*

Signed the woman who is running after her children and whispering in their ears, "Daddy is wrong, Evolution does exist."

----------------------------------------------------------
Save our country one town, county, and state at a time!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm#why

[LostinVA]

104. My mother is a good Christian, and SHE says she hates Christians

By that, she means whacko fundies. She's Methodist. Whenever she says "Have you heard what those Christians are doing?" -- and it's alot -- I always hear a hesitation in her voice, and then she says, You know what I mean." She's saying it with contempt, but she says it automatically. So, if a person of intense faith does it as a knee-jerk reaction, it makes sense that all of us heathens do, too!

They are people on DU, and people I know, that are just knee jerk nasty about religious people. My boss for one. It pisses me off. It's just as bad as a kneejerk reaction to gays, or blacks, etc.

[greyfox]

109. Yes, it is just as bad..... n/t

[tx_dem41]

2. I agree with everything you said.

And for what its worth...I'm an Atheist.

[vetwife]

3. Thanks Tx -Dem !

It is one way to really get ridiculed and have hurt feelings.
I respect your belief of not to believe and thanks for the courage to agree.

[vetwife]

4. There is a difference IMO in religion and faith

One can have faith and not ever be religious.

[immoderate]

152. Depends on what you mean by faith.

As is often the case these arguments often are about the meanings of words. So I can explain, but not justify this lack of communication.

One of the meanings of faith implies a blind following, not tested by evidence. As democrats, we like to think we make political decisions on rationality and reality, and that faith has no place in political administration.

Faith is the energy that drives circular reasoning.

This makes some liberals over react. Consider that rejecting dogma, the sibling of faith, is an essential part of liberal thinking.

Around here, our political disagreements are limited by the format of the blog. No such thing for religious diversity! Where is the clash likely to be?

Many here see some people of faith as the source of evil, our sworn enemy, anti-science, anti-choice, homophobic, anti-sex, etc.

I don't see that here. My question is: How do you know the difference between the truths you believe on faith, and the fallacies you believe on faith?

Remember, faith is the capacity to believe what you know is false.

How could there not be arguments about faith here?:nuke:


--IMM

[OldLeftieLawyer]

5. There's a difference

between being sincerely religious and observing, respecting, and living your religion versus using the concept of religion as a vehicle for rightwingnut, intolerant, dismissive, and exclusionary political views.

I haven't been here long, but I haven't seen a whole lot of anything resembling genuine religious tolerance or respect for people who happen to embrace the Democratic agenda. The two-way street is a narrow one, and if respect and tolerance are to prevail, it's got to be honest.

The problem, though, is that religion, if lived honestly, is a private matter, and the people who use it as a platform for their political views are dishonest. That, I think, is where you encounter what you see as intolerance on the part of DU posters.

It's not intolerance, but merely calling out the people who are exploiting beliefs that some of us may or may not hold sacred for their own morally corrupt reasons.

[jdj]

6. because of what people of faith are trying to do to this planet and

the human race.

I grew up in the sickness of fundamentalism, and after years of therapy, chemical dependency and lingering psychological scars, I refuse to "play nice" when it comes to the twisting of faith into a sickness that is threatening to bring and end to life on this planet.

I suffered because of that sickness, and to anyone who would tell me to shut up, I would say go out and take back your religion from the sickos and the perverts that are raping this planet and killing innocents in the name of God. Your issues certainly are not with me. If I offend anyone because of my feelings about this, well, it would take me the rest of my life to even the score as far as what "people of faith" offensively visited on me, so I am not that concerned about it.

There is a writhing sickness on this planet wherein far more evil acts are being committed in the name of some stupid-ass god than are good, and "good christians" et al are doing as much or more harm as the most evil criminal. That's the real issue to be confronted, not whether someone scarred by religious abuse hurts your feelings.

[vetwife]

7. I disagree !

Jesus could not stand the Pharasees and hypocrites but I have over 5000 posts here and no one that I know is a bigger activist than me.
If I did not have something bigger than me to believe in, I could not do what I do. I respect your right not to believe but your rights end when they step on mine.

[jdj]

8. Please name me one time when I have ever stepped on your rights.

Give me a freaking break.

You really need to quit whining because your position is indefensible.

And what in the name of nobody is this gobbledy gook about hypocrites and pharisees....nevermind, don't anwer, I might have a flashback.

[vetwife]

10. Its not just my rights..There are plenty of believers on here

And you don't know me at all do you? If you did you would know I certainly am not a whiner ! I say every time you poke fun at faith you are dividing and that is no better coming from the left than on the right. Pllllllllllllllease tell me how it's different.

[jdj]

13. Good lord. Are you REALLY saying people on DU shouldn't

make jokes about religion?

Good one!

I have earned my right to poke fun at this sick bullshit, and the more humorless it gets the more it deserves it. I know I have just given you what you wanted, someone to vent at, but that's okay, alot of my pet topics get lambasted on here as well, but my tactic is to just lambast right back, instead of starting threads demanding everyone acknowlege how special my special beliefs are and demanding a moratorium on "poking fun" at said pet topics.

[SoCalDem]

86. I think that religion is a WONDERFUL thing

for the people who feel the need of it. They can have as much of it as they can hold, but I object vehemently to having them foist it upon me , or into the "public arena"..

I do not run up the stairs of a church and shout epithets as people worship.. Nor do I storm into Bible study meeting to tell the faithful that "I" do not believe their "good book"..

I am a courteous citizen who believes that people should have their private space to believe whatever they like.

I draw the line when religion...ANY religion is inserted into secular activities that ALL citizens pay for through their combined tax revenues.

The fact that ALL religions "can/could" be used to "share" an event, by having ALL symbols displayed, is B U N K too..Why not just display them where they have the most meaning to the faithful of that particular faith....their church/chapel.synagogue/temple/mosque/cathedral/shrine..etc.

The fundamentalists of MOST faiths seem to "get off" on shoving THEIR religion upon the ones who are most antithetical to it. It's getting to be like Survivor:Religion.. Everything is "this or that", "faith or going-to-hell", good-evil", and each "side" knows that their opponent is the one headed south..

I just wish it could be the way it used to be. There was a time when people were civil, and looked at people of other faiths as people just like them who went to a different building to worship..

[vetwife]

92. Thanks for that sentiment So. Cal Dem

I do too..wish it could be like it used to.
Thanks..

[Fifth of Five]

142. Thank you!

My sentiments exactly.

[tx_dem41]

12. You know....vetwife has acted in a very sincere manner on this thread..

why anyone would feel the need to jump on her and accuse her of whining and say "give me a freaking break" is beyond me?!?

[jdj]

21. Lucky you.

I am not making this up.

My past is real, and it is the past of alot of people who have grown up in organized religion, and unfortunatey, because of the kid gloves people undeservedly handle religion with, it is the reality of probably millions of children growing up today.

I've been around here long enough to know that if someone with 27 posts had posted this thread, various and sundry long-term DUers would have jumped all over it and told them where to go. It's embarassing really, our little hierarchy. I'm posting my feeling part in response to the topic and part in response to this silly DU hierarchy and clique-ishness where people pick and choose whom they respond to and how based on "who" they are.

And I am sincere as well. I feel "jumped on" by her request of people to handle religion with kid gloves when it clearly doesn't deserve it. I will not be moved, there are innocent kids out there getting victimized, tormented and abused, and in my mind concern for their welfare trumps any whining adult.

[tx_dem41]

25. I acknowlege your sincerity....but, the meaning of her post was not..

to handle religion with "kid gloves". My take (and she can correct me if I'm wrong) was she is asking us to not knee-jerk against all religious people on DU.

If you really think ALL people of religion (including Unitarians, Buddhists, etc.) are all horrible and deserve this reaction, then I surely won't try to talk you out of it. Like you said, your reaction is based on your life experience.

[jdj]

34. People blow off steam here.

Unfortunately. I do it, others do it everyone does it. I make a special effort to say "fundies" when I speak about religion, because it's a topic I know more than my share about. I generally don't say christians, if anything I say xtians, but my position is I don't give a fuck about your personal God. That is harsh but it is true. I don't even like the phrase "people of faith" it seems to denote superiority to me.

As far as individual religious people, I take them as they are, not what label they are displaying. I really don't want to know about that part.

Although not a PETA member, I defend PETA voraciously for taking on agribusiness and it's right wing backers. Thus I expose myself to the most possibly knee-jerked topic on this board and read some posts that are to me excruciatingly offensive...however it would never occur to me to start a thread saying 'don't bash PETA because I say so'.

I am, as you suggest, beyond the pale about xtian fundamentalism. And if there were a Jesus, I'm sure he would be writhing in embarassment about being the rock star they've made him into. He was an Essene, a vegetarian, an anti-materialist. Not many of his followers come anywhere near that description, though ironically, I do.

[tx_dem41]

38. Well, as I stated in post #2...

I am an Atheist. But, that is a personal thing as well. While I don't really like Christians "proselytizing" their faith to me, I respect that they probably in return don't want me proselytizing my Atheism to them. Its a mutual respect that I try to follow (of course, the keyword is mutual).

Good post by the way. I appreciate you sharing.

[poe]

57. church without walls

perhaps there has been no more often used justification for slaughter than religion, particularly christian religion. it is also rather annoying to be around people who are constantly throwing their religion into the earwaves. i don't even like to hear someone say god bless me when i sneeze.

now i will add, the folks at catholic worker rock and put their bodies on the MACHINE which is more than can be said for most so-called liberal democrats in my part of the world.

[UdoKier]

95. When the laws say you can't drive an Abrams Assault vehicle on the freeway

is that "stepping on your rights?" Do you actually think you have a RIGHT to drive ANYTHING you want?

YOu live in a community of people. Your SUV affects others, as does your mega-house (if you have them.)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

17. I'm sorry for your pain, jdj

but the kind of people who hurt you wouldn't listen to me anyway. As far as they're concerned, liberal Christians like me are worse than atheists, because we know the Bible and still don't believe the way they do. Their publications (my father, a liberal Lutheran pastor, was on their mailing lists whether he wanted to be or not) spend much more time railing against liberal Christians than against atheists.

And don't get me started on how the "liberal media" put efforts by liberal religious people to work for justice on page B23 of the paper, while Falwell and his ilk get the front pages.

[ArkDem]

136. Sniff.....poor thing.

[anitar1]

9. Institutional Religion Is Evil IMO n/t

[GumboYaYa]

11. People like Falwell, Robertson, and Dobson have become

the face of christianity. The Catholic church actively supports Republicans.

People often speak in generalities when dealing with issues of faith, b/c the image they see most frequently is a gross bastardization of Christianity that has given us an illegal and immoral war and the proposed destruction of social security.

Don't take it personally when someone attacks Christians. They don't really mean all Christians, just the hypocrites that get thrown in their faces every day. Use it as a chance to educate people about what Jesus really said and that all Christians aren't right-wing fundies.

[vetwife]

16. Yeah I am working on another CD about Faith

Appreciate that. Remember me..I am the one who put out Take it Back ! I cannot stand Falwell or Robertson. They are not the face of christianity in my opinion. They are in show business. To me Faith is not for sale.

[tx_dem41]

18. Of course they often mean "all" Christians...

what else can they mean when they mock God as a "mythical man". I have seen that about once a day for the 2 months I have been a member. That is an insult aimed at ALL Christians.

Personally, in the face of such simple-mindedness by such posters, it amazes me that Vetwife is being instructed in your post to basically apologize for her religion.

[GumboYaYa]

28. What....

Since when did using an expression of ignorance as a chance to educate become apologizing?

Atheists and agnostics are entitled to express their beliefs just as Christians are. It seems to me that you are the one casting stones when you say that someone who believes God is a mythical man must be simple-minded.

[tx_dem41]

32. The simplemindedness I was referring to...

was attacking all Christians (and really all religions) as if they were monolithic (and I was not addressing that description at you. I apologize if you took it that way).

As I said in an earlier post (I think #2), I am an Atheist. Thus, I don't believe in God. So, I surely don't believe that non-belief in God is being simpleminded.

[GumboYaYa]

39. No problem.

I didn't take it personally; I just did not understand what you were trying to say.

I think simple-minded may be a little harsh. Many people feel genuinely afraid and/or angry over the state of our country right now. The media and even people within our government have attributed the reelection of Bush to Christian voters. It is a natural human reaction to look for someone to blame. Christians make an easy target in the current climate.

If Christian means living your life according to the teachings of Jesus, there is nothing Christian at all about the right-wing fundies. Jesus was a liberal. The Sermon on the Mount is one of the greatest liberal speeches in the history of the world. Instead of being hurt by the natural reaction of people to lash out at the contorted Christianity promoted by fundies, I simply think it is better to do as Jesus would and use it as a chance to tell people what Jesus really says and stands for.

[July]

101. I see it differently.

If I think God is not real, or that religion is a myth, I am not insulting any Christians, I am following my own conscience. I also have no trouble supporting the right of Christians to believe something that I do not believe. I won't be forced to agree with them, though. I don't offer my views to everyone, even when asked about them, but I don't feel that stating what I think -- even if it profoundly differs from what Christians think -- is insulting Christians' beliefs. I do often feel that Christians expect me to tacitly agree with their premises, though, when they say they are "insulted" if I don't share them.

And let me offer this anecdote to show it to you from the other side. My teenaged son recently told a cousin and his grandmother that he is an atheist. The responses were: "That's ridiculous!" and "That doesn't make sense!" I would venture to guess that my son felt insulted at that time.

The gap cannot be bridged. In my opinion, all we can do is respectfully state our (very different) views, or keep off the topic entirely.

[tx_dem41]

111. I agree about Christian proselytization....

but when Atheists mock God as a myth to a Christian, they are doing the same thing...proselytizing.

[July]

114. Well, if they are trying to convince you, perhaps.

But just stating one's views isn't necessarily mocking. I don't even go there unless I'm asked, and even then I try to be careful in the way I express my thoughts.

I don't think saying, "I believe God is a myth" is mocking Christianity. If I say, "You're a fool to believe in God," I am mocking, however. I don't know how someone who DOES believe God is a myth can say it differently. There are plenty of us nonbelievers who don't claim to know what's right for anyone but ourselves and wouldn't presume to mock another for his beliefs. We'd have a hard time trying to say something that sounds like acceptance in our own consciences of a Christian's premises, though.

[vetwife]

144. How could anyone ask wher I am after this? Apologize for the language

You moptherfuckin cunt

keep yor fuckin mouth shut you goddamn traitor or I will kick yor faggot traitor cunt husbands worhtless ass.

You are a stain on this great nation, you support a traitor and liar and fraud

You need tobe arrested and imprisoned

FOR YOUR FAGGOT HUSBAND-FUCK YOU YOU YELLOW PIECE OF SHIT TRAITOR
....................................................................
I don't know where it came from. I have several worse than this and you question why I am seeking tolerance.
Well...I went to many conservative boards and liberal boards aftr this and stood up for what I felt was my right to be a moderate. I got bashed personally here as well but never wavered on my right to be me. Its not easy to try and bring sanity to all sides. I am an activist for veterans. I am a person of faith. I really like General Clark. I take a stand for vets. I have many friends on this board. I have friends other than cyberspace who are Republican or liberteian. I have reached out to try and understand why so much hatred. I spoke up against many things that happened at the Republican convention. I have stood for many of you. I have stood for your right to dissent. I am not a conspiracy theorist. I am just me. I can't stand the hatred. If I can get bashed like that letter and try to reach a level of patience, especially with a murder in my family, then why be so intolerant of my views? I am not trying to win friends and influence people..I am trying to seek truth and demand respect as an individual ..That is all I am doing.

[annabanana]

154. jiminy Vetwife

you got yourself some nasty email there.
I understand what you're saying, and I agree with you. People have the right to their beliefs, and I think thye have the right to basic human respect to the same degree that they afford that courtesy to others.
I suspect that maturity comes into this equation somewhere.

[Bouncy Ball]

19. Good post.

And what a crying shame that Falwell et al have become the face of Christianity in America. They are about as far from acting like Christians as anyone can be. Hateful and bigoted, that wasn't what Jesus taught!

[StClone]

14. I am Catholic

More accurately I was.

It was a beautiful faith filled with ceremony and symbolism. We were chaste, modest and looking out for our neighbors and those in need. It became clear after the pedophile cover-up it was ready for the picking. Where once it withstood the kookiness of Evangelism, it swept up in in a brand of its own.

Hearing many of my fellow Catholics voted for a war-mongering non-Catholic has me despising the current state of my faith and longing for the past.

I often question all faiths now to the point of ridicule. I have no excuse: I have becomes intolerant of religion as an ignorance rather than a enlightened path to salvation.

[Sgent]

23. I despise fundamentalists

Because they are pushing their views down my throat. In 1980, 30 years after being found unconstitutional, I was being forced to say christian prayers at my public elementery school (for lunch). I was expected to thank Jesus for life at my high school graduation in '93, and I had the niceties of christianity being shoved down my throat through prosteltizing and witnessing. I have no take with fundamentalist christians that do this -- and I have personal experience to back it up.

That being said, I have seen some of the extraordianry humanitarian projects taken on by christians (habitat for hummanity), and am very good friends with many people of deep faith -- probably deeper than my own. Although we don't share it on a regular basis, it can make for some great conversations, and I happen to respect them a great deal -- as long as its not pushed down my throat. This is unlike Roberts, Falwell, etc.

[karlrschneider]

15. You have a good point. I personally don't care what sort of religious

beliefs anyone might have (I was raised a Christian and became an atheist)...and having undergone that particular transition tend to think people who base everything on 'faith' are somewhat softheaded, but I could be wrong...it's just that so far I haven't seen any evidence of supernatural "beings" (and even if one or more of them did really exist, it seems to me that by definition there would be no possibility of any interaction with us...)

I think if you analyze the posts you perceive as deprecatory, -most- of them are actually protesting what is seen as an effort to infuse a particular BRAND of religion into the imprimatur of law; vis-a-vis the various 'faith-based' initiatives (all, thus far directed to a fairly narrow spectrum of 'faith) and an overly-insistent thrust to denigrate science when it appears to conflict with certain (6000 year old Earth, for example) beliefs.

[seabeyond]

20. vetwife you have to understand why....... not that it is a good thing

reality is, the republicans have declared they are the only christian. they have declared that if you speak against bush, vote for kerry, are a democrat, you are not a christian. they are not being shy. it is on the media, it is being promoted as a truth. for me, a christian, this is offensive. it is offensive to tell me about being american and family values and christian, as they promote an unjust and poorly run war killing thousands, then saying nuke them all, they dont appreciate the help, yada yada.

maybe more on this board would be accepting of christians, if the left christians, the new testament christians, the progressive christians had more of a voice. actually put forth the effort to take back their religion. speak out in love, not hate ....hate of a gay, hate of muslims..........we dont hear that

this is the creation we have from the fundamentalist. fundamentalists that dictate how we are suppose to walk life, and if we deviate, then we are satan, pagen, heathens

this is what your faith has created.

i am not angry at those bashing me, my religion or my faith, i am angry at those that are abusing the scriptures and preaching to their followers from their own man made law and interpretation and not christ words. they are the ones guilty.

just as we blamed kerry thru out the election. it was bush that was the creep, the liar the cheat. he is the one that gets to have the blame.

[vetwife]

26. In Take it Back..I pointed many denounced us as not having Faith

And That Take it Back CD got some good reviews yet the very thing I said the Right was doing looks like the left is backing up and that is not whining ....That is something the progressives need to understand when discussing their direction for the future. It WON't WIN ELECTIONS !

[jdj]

44. But seriously

Jesus would understand this, it would not be a big deal to him at all. Jesus hung out with the prostitutes and the lepers and other "undesirables" he would fit right in and understand this, he's the one running through the temple knocking down all the tables. He would be right at home here with all the dissent and questioning.

It's in the local first baptist church he'd be like "WTF?"

[seabeyond]

97. this i totally agree. that is excellent the way you say it

at one point, my son and i said, we arent using christian anymore, what they have done to christian i dont want to be it. and i strongly felt jesus with me doing a dance, for real, lol olol. he didnt want to be a part of this christian also. he wanted us to throw away the word if this is what we were going to do with it. what is a word, it is the behavior.

yes, i think jesus would understand to. and beyond that does it matter.

i have learned some progressive ministers are speaking up. this is something we have to go thru at this time. i have faith. and with faith, i know we are doing this for lesson, and the right in all aubsrudities have to make a scene, this is their lesson. so i leave them to it. because people are angry with what they are seeing, they should be angry. if they didnt react, if they werent angry, i would be more concerned

and nothing about whining vet wife. just different perspectives., i totally value what you are saying in your post and why

[VioletLake]

22. Is it ok to poke fun at Rapturistas? n/t

[vetwife]

29. Someone once told me.....

Someone once told me that anything one does not believe in is a cult to them. So No..I think if that is their belief and they are not shoving it on one personally, its their right to believe anything hey want .

[VioletLake]

31. No one is shoving anything on anyone here personally.

By your logic, we shouldn't poke fun at Republicans either. Or is politics a different story?

[vetwife]

33. Politics IS different..Politics and Faith are not the same thing

Look at MLK and Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton. Did or Do they poke fun at people of faith? I had dinner with Al Gore..Did you know that he studied theology? He went to a seminary ?

[VioletLake]

36. To some people, politics and faith are inseparable.

You should know that.

[vetwife]

37. Look what AZ said

[VioletLake]

40. Looked.

We're pretty much on the same page. :shrug:

[Az]

41. Hi

:hi:

[VioletLake]

42. Heya, AZ!

:hi:

[VioletLake]

49. As long as Republicans insist on merging faith with politics,

faith is fair game.

[cally]

129. I disagree

Anyone who tries to tell me what if I'm right or wrong in my beliefs is fair game. To ridicule others and demean their faith is wrong. Many of us are liberal Christians and as outraged as you at the fundies. I'm furious, concerned, and sad at what happened to our Country. That doesn't mean that everyone's faith is fair game...just how it's used by the Bushistas.

[Telly Savalas]

45. Politics is the art of shoving things on others personally.

The primary goal of the Republican Party is to implement policies that will diminish the quality of life for 99% of Americans. This affects vetwife personally. It affects me personally. And it affects you personally too. Politics is a different story.

[VioletLake]

46. Some of those policies are "faith-based." n/t

[Az]

35. Its tricky

The nature of people is to help others in trouble. Watch the videos of 9/11. After the initial dust and debrie hit people were seen running back in to help those caught in the disaster. Its our nature.

If a person believes that hitting their head repeatedly with a board is the way to find salvation there are going to be those that are concerned for them. They are clearly harming themself. It is natural to want to help them.

Now while belief in less harmfull things may seem less threatening there is still a natural tendency to want to help those who are mislead. This is where the tricky part comes it. We believe the things we do because we believe they are true. We do not choose to believe a thing. We may have made choices on our paths that lead to our belief's. But where and who we are now is not a choice. Our beliefs are who we are.

The thing of it is our minds are designed to learn by exchanging ideas with each other. Its how we grow and develop. Maturity is just us taking all the lessons and ideas we have accumulated and formulating our own vision of the world around us. We believe it to be a relatively accurate image of the world. Otherwise we would not formulate it.

When we meet new people we exchange ideas. When we find someone with a radically different idea we compare it to our own and if it does not fit it is rejected. If the person has some value to us (family, friend, similar social group, etc) we may become concerned about the differentiation of the idea. We will naturally try to convey our position as it is the one we are most familiar with and naturally believe to be the correct one.

Yes it is everyone's right to believe what they will. But we are social creatures. We interact. We seek to help those that matter to us. And the perception of a malformed world view triggers out natural instincts to advise and correct.

[Bouncy Ball]

24. Here's my feeling on the whole thing.

I happen to believe in a Higher Power. That belief does not harm a single person, not even myself. If anything, it causes me to do good and to strive to be a better person. I DON'T believe a person HAS to believe in a higher power to be a better person, not at all. It just happens to work that way for me, that's all.

I don't tell people about my religious beliefs. The ONLY time I will do so is if I am DIRECTLY ASKED. Otherwise, never. (Obviously since this is the topic of the thread, here is an exception.) I was taught while growing up that it is rude to inject one's religious views into conversation. I guess that's not considered so rude anymore, but I don't care--I simply won't do it.

Nor do I ask anyone else about their beliefs. It is none of my frigging business.

Furthermore, if a person's beliefs don't cause any harm to anyone, then have at it. It doesn't matter to me if a person is atheist, agnostic, Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, or whatever! People are people.

I believe the vitriol is directed at fundamentalists. And deservedly so, in my opinion. Not at members of the religious/spiritual left.

Maybe people should just be more careful to say so. Also, there is such a thing as anti-theism. Being openly hostile towards any kind of belief in a higher power. And there are anti-theists here. I understand how they feel. And nothing they can say about me or call me can hurt me. I've been told I have an imaginary playmate, I've been told I am mentally ill for believing in God, etc. Actually, it is against DU rules to disparage like that. So you probably should hit alert on posts such as that. But as for me, I just blow it off. They are entitled to their opinion, just as I am to mine. It doesn't diminish how I feel in any way.

I have no defensiveness whatsoever about my beliefs. I don't belong to any particular church, I am not a fundie. So 99% of what is said here about religion honestly doesn't bother me.

[Misunderestimator]

122. And this atheist will vouch for the fact that you do not proselytize.

That was a beautiful post. :loveya:

[Az]

27. A failure of the post modern era

Tolerance is supposed to breed connectivity. That was the theory. But without some impetus or force encouraging such interaction groups naturally tend to slide off into their own private niches.

This is what happened in America. As the isolation of various cultures and groups took hold communication between the various positions dwindled to a trickle and eventually came to a halt. Telephones, cars, and tvs created an environment where we had control of our social world. No longer relegated to dealing with the people life left in our vicinity. Each group insular and isolated.

The art of conversation about wildly varying ideas whithered. People now become agitated of someone speaks on subjects that are not in their normal sphere of society. Some groups are even more so ostrasized and thus become more aggressive when dealing with those they percieve as oppressing them.

There is also the factor that some groups have always been oppressed. And as our society extends its understanding of what freedom is these groups begin demanding fair representation. But due to the lack of intercommunication between various positions there is no grace to these demands. They seem to those on the recieving end to be brutish and insulting.

The only way to correct this is to break down the walls of isolation. To communicate with each other. Explore the thinking of groups not normally in your social circle. It is going to be uncomfortable. There are going to be fights. But if this path is not travelled the natural social process of isolation will lead to increased conflict and the divisions increase.

[Hardrada]

79. Differ on one point

I'm glad I am not relegated to dealing with the repuke neigbors in my (immediate) vicinity. I avoid hassles by not conversing with them (and vice versa I suppose).

[EC]

30. With me , it's just

a general dislike of any organized religion...especially these new ones that seem to be a bit misleading...I see allot of snake-oil men passing themselves off as men of God and subverting faith and using it to control people so they can make money...Farwell, Robertson, Smith, Dobson and many more, including the local born-again paster here where I live...at least he was found out to be bilking his flock and sent to jail....oh, yeah, I also found out that 2 local Baptist churches have baptismal pools where the one being baptized has to completely disrobe in front of the whole church and go into the pool to be bathed by the paster, this seems perverse to me...

[Behind the Aegis]

43. to believe or not

I practice my own faith/spirituality. It is between me and my creator...no one else, unless they ask. Most people here are attacking "fundies" and their lunacy. Yes, there are a few posters who are very disrespectful, but it is to be expected in a 'community' this large. What I find a little disingenuous is just about any time Christianity is mentioned, certain DU'ers go nuts claiming anti-Christian bias. It has become that ANY disagreement with a Christian and you are labeled an anti-Christian bigot. This is simply not true. To disagree with belief or dogma does not a bigot make. IF the post is really over the top alert, otherwise, realize most are not attacking the whole of Christendom.

[jdj]

48. I personally am an equal opportunity bigot.

I despise orthodoxy of any kind because it's basis is always reproductive control and oppression of women. Period. Scrape away the red and purple robes (stolen from the "whore" of Babylon) and that's what you get. At it's base it's all about sperm and DNA and legal issue and womb squatting.

I really don't care what flavor it comes in.

[Behind the Aegis]

51. i see. :)

If someone is religious, but keeps it to themselves, I have no issue with. When they try to make it a matter of public policy or make a policy based on religious beliefs, then I take issue with it. I am like you, I don't care what religion it is, if you are trying to interfere with my rights, then we will have problems! But, I have also seen people of faith/spiritual beliefs/atheists who do not shove their beliefs down the throats of others and actually try to preserve the rights of all peoples. It is just sad those people don't get more air time!

[Dookus]

47. I think the main problem

is that a lot of us SEE the horrible uses "religion" is put to. The name of religion is used to oppress gay people like me, keep down women, hurt the poor, justify hatred and war and a slew of other things.

For many of us who don't believe in gods, it's pretty hard to respect the underlying belief when its overt manifestation is so harmful.

[vetwife]

50. Well ..Guess what ?

I don't believe any elections can be won as long as this intolerance of faith is exhibited. Get used to The Republicans.
I had Take it Back regarding and no party owns God or country and
the less tolerant of Faith we are, then the more elections we lose.
Why hasn't anyone answered the question about MLK? Carter or Gore?
Ask them? They will tell you the same thing I am trying to say.

[VioletLake]

52. What about MLK, Carter and Gore?

I'm Christian too. The difference is that MLK, Carter and Gore didn't shove Christianity up America's collective behind.

As long as Republicans insist on merging faith and politics, faith is fair game. Of course that's not an excuse for wholesale faith bashing, (which by the way, I don't see too much of around here).

[vetwife]

56. Violet

I see it all over and I am concerned about mixing politics and religion and every oldtimer on here knows that about me...I do worry about shoving it down people's throat.

I also am concerned for not taking the issue to the policy makers. I don't see anyone in this community making policy though. It simply won't win elections. DU is not exactly unknown. Its ammo for the over zealous to point and say, SEE..They are against God and Country. It is over the top to say we should be tolerant and then get on a well known board and say people who have faith are simpleminded and God is a myth. They may feel that way, but it appears hypocritical to say God is a myth and on another thread say You are in my prayers. Makes no sense.

[VioletLake]

61. Whenever you see people acting that way,

say something to them, or alert the moderator. What more can I say?

They're forcing us to walk a fine line. There are things we can criticize and there are acceptable ways of doing it. I think my rapturista thread is ok, if not silly. Just so you know, it wasn't an attempt to ingratiate myself with the target group. :+

[sffreeways]

77. Your agenda here

is pretty obvious. From my point of view what you desire aint gonna happen no matter how tricky you get with your promotion of it.

Ya know..wink * wink*

By the way..I have an opinion regarding God..it's a myth. That's an OPINION see ?

Let me help you out

Bashing Christianity example:

Hey Christians are dirty perverts that ought to be marginalized by society, regected by their families, and converted to atheism. Let's be honest here they are choosing to be Christian and they can change if they want to so they deserve whatever they get. I encourage everyone to hunt them down and make them change whatever it takes before they recruit anymore innocent children.

Having an opinion about religion:

God is a myth. Believing in an imaginary man in the sky that watches you all the time is silly.

See the difference ?

This is most disturbing

"DU is not exactly unknown. Its ammo for the over zealous to point and say, SEE..They are against God and Country."

And ? So ? I should what ?

a. keep my opinion of religion and God to myself because some Nazi asshole on the right won't like the Democrats anymore ?

b. Pretend I am a believer so some Nazi asshole on the right will think I'm just like him and might be tricked into voting for the Democrats ?

c. Convert ?

[vetwife]

78. We have never

seen eye to anything. Agenda? I want to win elections. That is my agenda. You do have a right to believe what you want. You don't have a right to criticize several Duers beliefs, no matter what they are . That is every bit as bad as the Right.

[sffreeways]

80. "I want to win elections."

I get that. I get it that this is what you want. But you have another agenda here and that is to surpress the secular left.

You want to win elections and to so so we should ??? What is it that you think we should do ?

The opportunism is there on both sides and it makes me want to take a shower when I see it. The election results are not a mandate for the Christian Nation nonsense. The left, liberals, progressives do not have to pretend to be Christian to get more votes. We don't have to keep our opinions about religion to ourselves because if we don't we will never win another election. And that piddly little margain he won by should not in anyway make the Democratic party turn to fundementalism to win elections.

There are a number of reasons why Bush won and I am certain that Democrats aren't Christian enough isn't one of them.

The media wants us to think so and Christians want us to think so but that doesn't make it so.

If that is truly what it takes to win the Democratic Party is in bigger trouble than I thought.

[vetwife]

89. I am not about that...Not this poster !

I do not want to supress anyone. That is my whole point. Some of my best friends are secular and aethists. They respect however and don't complain about people with faith . Especially when it gets brought up all the time. The right does it too but in a different way. Like God caused 9-11. No he didn't. We should take the higher road and leave faith in the church and see beyond the pharasees or hypocrites and respect the ones who do choose to believe. If people want to discuss the fundies ..Have a forum for it.

To those who do have faith, God did not cause all of the troubles in the world. People have free will to choose to believe or not believe and you are right..The Democratic Party is in big trouble because they have moderate, far left, right of Center..Bush Like, and copying the religious extremists in a push back manner will not win elections. It won't......Trying to supress the southern votes won't win elections..How many times have people said, "Let's cut off the south". God is Dead..This side is supposed to be compassionate toward all faiths.

[Az]

83. There are two roads to winning elections

One road is the road of placating the people. Giving in to whatever popular idea has struck their fancy. This leads to power plays and eventually intolerance and divisiveness.

The other road is harder. But it creates new possibilities. Standing up for ideals. Leading the people instead of being lead by the polls. Showing the people a better way. Being true to your ideals.

To win at any cost is to lose the thing most important.

[sffreeways]

87. Indeed

you make too much sense for this thread ya know...

[drdtroit]

146. "To win at any cost is to lose the thing most important." Word!

This has been demonstrated by the contemptible campaigns that Karl Rove has perpetuated on behalf of the re-pukes. A once great and benevolent society has been reduced to an intellectually vacuous, socially miserly, corrupt and hated shadow of itself.

[Dookus]

53. My problem is not

with faith per se, but with the overt, non-stop PUBLIC display of it.

The idea that the President says you couldn't be a good president without faith in gods. That his father said he didn't believe atheists could be good citizens - it's THAT shit that drives me nuts, and I don't feel the need to kowtow to it.

I don't know of ANY atheists who want to stop you from practicing your faith. But making it public is annoying at best, dangerous at worst, when the right does it, and I don't think the left should follow suit.

[Az]

54. Wisdom from vs Dogma

MLK, Carter, and Gore derive their wisdom from their beliefs and their life experience. When they represent it to the people they display the end product not the source. The truth that people of any belief or nonbelief can discern in the wisdom they come by is what made them good.

The faith of the right though is based on brute force of authority. Whether there is wisdom or not in their position is never brought up. It is an appeal to the doctrine with no filtering.

People can come to their positions by way of faith. If their conclusions are valid they should stand up for themself without having to call to the dogmatic authority of their beliefs. This is a sign of wisdom that the people can learn from. To insist that your ideas be obeyed because of doctrine is a sure road to conflict.

[VioletLake]

55. Great comments.

:toast:

[vetwife]

58. So, are you saying

MLK never preached. Rev. Al sharpton is not a preacher. Are you saying that all the presidential nominees did not profess faith?
They did. Every one.

I was a person of faith before I knew who Bush was and yes I think he is wrong for all of the Faith Based policies. I am saying people of faith don't want freedom from religion either. KEEP IT IN THE HOME AND CHURCHES...But be tolerant of people's faith.

[VioletLake]

63. I'm not saying MLK, etc. did not profess faith.

It's where and how. C'mon vetwife, stop putting words in my mouth. :hug:

[July]

105. People of faith don't want freedom from religion.

People without faith do.

The free exercise of religion is very well established in this country. China is a good example of a country where people are not free to practice their beliefs, if they have them.

I want freedom from religion IN THE PUBLIC SPHERE. I neither want nor expect religious expression in this country to be banned. But I really don't like government endorsement of religious beliefs that only some of us hold, and I don't like taxpayer funding of religion.

To me, we are (or should be) all free to follow our consciences without being required to acquiesce to tacit support of others' beliefs (NOTE: while I don't want to pretend to support those beliefs, I do strongly support the right of others to practice whatever beliefs they hold). It's a minor issue to believers to say "under God" in the pledge or swear on a Bible. For those who don't believe, doing so is pretence, and not doing so often brings unwarranted criticism (or worse). There is a great deal of intolerance of the nonbeliever's choice not to participate in religious expression. So the toleration should go both ways, in my opinion.

[Flying Dream Blues]

108. I disagree

I am a person of faith (though not mainstream religious) and I am deeply offended by religion in the public sphere. I believe in the division between church and state for protection of the republic, and out of respect for all belief systems.

But I also think that most of us should be able to discern between intolerance for Christianity (and yes, it afflicts some DUers) and being fed up with the hypocrisy of fundamental "Christianity" that has infected and poisoned all political discourse in this country.

[July]

112. Let me correct myself.

Not all people of faith agree with religion in the public sphere, as you have pointed out, and your reasons are good ones for believers and nonbelievers alike.

As to your second point, I think that while there is some intolerance for Christianity, it is not as widespread as some Christians purport. While I agree with you that there is a difference between intolerance for Christianity and being fed up with fundies' hypocrisy, I don't think that's the whole of the problem we're discussing. Besides the injection of religion into the public realm, it is the notion that Christians and their beliefs are inherently good or even superior that I object to, and I don't think "tolerance" is the right response to it. Even those Christians who truly believe they are morally or spiritually superior to the rest of us (within their religious belief) are not superior under the law, and do not merit special treatment, nor should they have the right to keep me from public office or claim I am less of a citizen than they are because I am not a Christian (or a believer).

I think that many sincere and well-meaning Christians simply don't understand why something like prayer in school would bother anyone -- I've read more than once, "it doesn't hurt and it might help," which strikes me as arrogant. I don't think it's meant to be arrogant, but it's an unwarranted assumption based on the speaker's own beliefs, rather than tolerance of a differing viewpoint.

Your points are well-taken. I hope I've been able to express my thoughts better this time.

[Misunderestimator]

128. Really well said.

[Rockholm]

100. Intolerance of faith? Sorry, but that doesn't fully wash.

I agree with much of what you have said, in varying degrees, but intolerance of faith made me need to add my two cents.

I grew up in South Carolina and was raised Episcopalian. I was an altar boy. Heck, I even wanted to be a priest at one time. I still consider myself Episcopalian, although I have not been to church in many years. Nobody in my family ever wore our religion on our sleeves. I live in Boston now and Massachusetts is the largest Episcopal Diocese in the country. Massachusetts appears to a quite a religious state. The neat thing, however, is that we ARE tolerant of those who are religious and respect differing beliefs. We just think that religion should be kept private, personal and respectful.

Things do get dicey when those of faith rub religion in the face of those who do not share their vision of "God."

Intolerance of faith works both ways.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

59. My right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins

That's the way we all used to relate to rights. That's the America we were raised to believe we lived in...now it's more like "hey you got your religion in my government...hey...you got your government in my religion."

I do tolerate religion and had always mostly practiced tolerance over the subject of religion until this past election when virtually EVERY LARGE religion in America used their power of persuasion and hell fire to pass a referendum on me as a gay person.

Another African American poster had me see that the word TOLERANCE isn't so much about necessarily tolerating people one might disagree with but learning how to deal with and TOLERATE the hatred they spew at you without losing your soul and becoming just like them.

Anyway...I'm still struggling with it because I am both angry at SOME religious figures for their actions and angry at people who say "Don't blame me...they are just my religious leaders,....I don't think that."

[vetwife]

60. Nothingshocksmeanymore..You know me and that was very

sensible. Do you see what I am seeing? Or LOL have I finally shocked you?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

66. I see people painted with a broad brush on this board every day

I've even done it a few times. I appreciate people's right to practice their own faith. I appreciate my right to not have to practice their faith. I was raised as a jew...if you don't think jews are treated with a broad brush then you haven't visited the I/P forum.

I think the most important thing you can keep doing is posting from your position of faith as a demonstration that not all people of faith have taken the low, thoughtless road of blind faith in manipulative religious figures.

And no...you haven't shocked me. :D

[The Straight Story]

62. Dems are people of 'faith', faith is a belief in an ideal

like the democratic party, liberalism, philosophy, et al.

You can't prove a faith generally speaking, most you can do is argue why the one you hold is better for someone than the one they hold - ie, show them how they benefit more from sharing the same ideals as you do.

Faith in god, Jesus, buddah, et al is to believe in something which you cannot prove is correct (ie, that god exists and the bible is his word) - nor can you prove that the democratic party is the best in it's beliefs to all people. So to attack 'faith' in general, to me, is to attack your own beliefs.

Now that said, there are christians that rile me (and I am a christian as best I can be, far from perfect of course). Just like some dems rile us here and cause lengthy arguments (kerry, dean, et al).

Faith is holding a belief which you find good for yourself and believing that it is also good for others, but because people are so different we have many beliefs in both religion and politics. Has always been that way, always will be.

Going back to the biblical theme (if such it ever was on the thread) Jesus had problems with some jews, God did too in the OT time and again. We have problems ourselves with how some sects act and see their ways as 'wrong' - much like many diagree on the constitution and what it means and how to interpret it.

I agree that often times people will attack a whole faith when they are simply venting about a sub-group and how they think they are not following their own beliefs (which is something we see here a lot as well within the party).

So the battle against people of faith, to me, is a battle people wage as much against themselves as others. We all have 'faith' in something or some ideal, and while it is good to discuss it and how certain sub-groups carry out their beliefs within their framework it can lead to broad strokes where people label a whole faith without thinking about what they are saying.

That some christians are poor examples is a given (and such was so in the NT as well as Paul could and did attest to) and even Jesus spoke about the sheep and goats - we would do wise to listen to such things and address and focus on the person and not the core belief.

[VioletLake]

65. Nice comments too. n/t

[vetwife]

67. Those were nice comments Violet

[FM Arouet666]

64. Behave like the enemy and you become the enemy.

Specious reasoning. Yes. Just as republicans branded those that did not support the war, as supporting terrorism, being traitors etc Some have become so incensed by the rise of the religious Right, that they attack anyone with a religious belief.

The same motivation that makes a republican act in this manner is at work on this board. Fear and ignorance. Republicans are the definition of the scared little child, fearing anything unfamiliar or potentially threatening. I hope Duers can recognize their fear and refrain from attacking religious posters in an unreasoned manner.

Having said that, attacking comments from religious posters that are not reasoned, is justified. As long as the post is directed at the argument and not the person. Ad hominem is a logical fallacy befitting a republican.

I am a fervent atheist and probably have been perceived as guilty of your accusation. However, I never "bash" others because of their belief, but I do bash faulty arguments, be they religious or not religious. To do otherwise, would be republican.:evilgrin:

[vetwife]

68. You don't know me at all ...ME ....ME...

Me becoming part of the problem..Being an enemy..or were you broadstroking ?

[FM Arouet666]

71. No, and not attacking you at all

Allow me to restate, those that attack people on this board because of their religious views are in error. They behave like republicans, they attack what they fear or don't understand. I am in total agreement with you on this point.

I do not believe that I stated that you were "the enemy" or "part of the problem". I merely stated that some do take issue with religious arguments that are not well reasoned. Not your post in particular, but in general. To attack such arguments is justified. But again, to attack the person is not.

Not trying to broad stroke or backstroke or anything else.

:evilgrin:

[PowerToThePeople]

84. I am in agreement here

Many fights with "religious" people in my life end with them saying "my God is a powefull God and he will make it so, we just need to have faith and pray." That is NOT an earthly solution to an earthly problem imo. And earthly solutions are ALL us humans have at our disposal.

For clarification, I consider myself a person of faith but also have a strong faith in the human spirit and our ability to do right in the world. I am not a "god will come and save us all" person, not a rapturist...

[vetwife]

90. Ok gotcha !

I appreciate that sentiment..Sorry I misunderstood ya !

[VioletLake]

69. So...

Did we reach any kind of agreement here?

Some say faith is off limits; some say it's fair game within reason. Some say focus on the person; some say focus on the argument.

I say faith is fair game within reason (could be defined further), and focus on the argument/idea.

What say you?

:)

[Az]

70. Damn you and your wilely compassionate ways

I'll get you... and your little dog too.

Where there is a will to communicate there is always a way.

[VioletLake]

72. Why not use vetwife's thread to come to some agreement

that we can all stick to? I'm game as long as it's reasonable. It's late, but the will is there. Hopefully, it'll be there tomorrow... um later today. :P

[vetwife]

73. I say

Focus on the hypocrites and the People in power. I have always stood that ground. I don't think faith in general is fair game. I say Religion pharasees and wantabees are but the ones mixing politics and religion are the problem..the decision makers. I respect their right to believe and not force it but we shouldn't bash Faith in general. I do not believe in generalizations..Waaaaaaay too many exceptions to the rule.

The only way to win elections is to be tolerant of ALL PEOPLE and all Faiths. There are over 200 religions in this United States and
things are only going to get further shoved down people's throats if we appear intolerant. I remember vividly the God is Dead theme back in the 60's and Nixon went in. It just doesn't fly in elections
and it does cause people to be of one party and vote another way. This is not a small site.

Do you agree?

[VioletLake]

75. You're still tugging a little one way,

and I have the urge to tug back a little. But I won't because we're basically in agreement. Now I'm off to bed.

Nite :grouphug:

[vetwife]

76. I'm heading that way too .......It's Late or Early.......

Should not have taken that hour nap tonight.

[July]

106. What about the rest of us?

We're as American as the believers. How about being tolerant of all faiths and of those of no faith?

[ComerPerro]

74. I don't feel that I should be made to tolerate intolerance

[MrSlayer]

81. I don't have a problem with people of faith, I don't like fundamentalists.

And I'll go even further, I only have a problem with fundamentalists who throw it in your face or force it down your throat. Be whatever you want as long as you leave people alone. Whenever I mock religion or religious people it is 99% of the time the maniacal fundie zealots and their particular causes.

[Princess Turandot]

99. The only problem is that the people who read your posts,,

are not fundamentalists forcing religion down your throat. The people whom you mock therefore are fellow DU'ers, because those are the people who read your posts. If you want to stand outside of a fundamentalist church and hand out flyers presenting your views as they exit their services, more power to you. However, I have a very hard time personally believing that most of the the people who post on these boards mocking people who have religious faith are not addressing those comments at least in part to fellow DU'ers, because they are ticked off that we don't share your perspective on this issue and are a convenient target. We are the people who read your posts, not Pat Robertson. And I'd be shocked if you did not know that. Yet if you do not have religious beliefs, the posts here which will insult you for your perspective are few and far between. (I'm not sure whether I've ever even seen one.)

[Skittles]

82. I am sick of religion being thrown in my face

and believe me, it happens in some form every day. You may have to put up with a bit of bashing but you have no idea what I and many others have to put up with.

[Az]

85. So teach by example

There is an idea running around in the world. Treat others as you would have them treat you. It works because of the nature of our minds. We learn by example. How we act creates the world we live in.

Teach others by example. Show them how to be. If they do not pick it up do not stop showing the example. Others will pick up the lead and apply pressure to those that are not getting it. Eventually they will discover that their behaviour is not winning them any arguments or friends.

[Skittles]

88. I'd be happy if they'd just stop showing up at my door uninvited

nt

[vetwife]

91. I stopped that...I asked for a donation for the Vet site ..LOL

[Az]

93. All sorts of ways to stop that

Remember. They are initiating religious discussion. It opes a wide variety of responses. If you simply want them to turn tail quickly just unleash the Luke 6:30 bomb. Look it up. You'll know what to do with it.

[Skittles]

110. HELLO

you are f'ing talking to SKITTLES. I think they've tagged me as a "special case". :D

[Az]

127. Then you should be rich by now

Go read Luke 6:30. Really. It could be very profitable and fun to watch their faces.

[UdoKier]

94. I don't make it a habit of bashing religious folks...

...even though I have been attacked MANY times for being atheist, but anyway...

How stupid it is to have a house or home with over 400 sq. ft. and the type of cars we drive..and it always comes back to people of faith.

Since I was responsible for an SUV thread that spun into an anti-McMansion thread, I had to weigh in.

NOBODY ever said anyone was "stupid" for having a house "over 400 sq ft." Maybe you're trying to use hyperbole to be funny, but it's not, since those of us with environmental concerns take it seriously. Huge houses were attacked for wasting huge amounts of land and energy - period. I never saw anyone called "stupid". And My apartment is small at 900sq ft - and I would love to have 2000 sq ft, but the 4 and 5K sq ft McMansions are RIDICULOUS, if not obscene. Same thing with the cars. The SUVs are wasteful and dangerous - that's it. It has nothing to do with your religion! How the hell do you connect your love for wasteful cars and homes with religion? Did Jesus or Buddha or Mohammed advocate ostentatious homes or vehicles? I haven't heard about it.

Lastly, I have two wonderful kids, and I still care about the environment and would not want to raise them in a suburban wasteland. How does that translate to contempt for religious folks? Believe it are not, San Francisco is full of churches and religious people, too.

I wonder if you are trying to start a flamefest, since you are taking completely unrelated topics and trying to spin them into religious intolerance.

Anyway, when God gave us the Earth(if you believe such things), it was to cherish and be wise stewards, not to squander and plunder.

[bling bling]

96. I'm weary of "Christians" right now for good reason.

Christianity has been used as a weapon of oppression by leaders throughout it's history from the time of it's very inception. And that's a fact. (I highly recommend studying this religion from a historical perspective to anyone, but especially for women).

One particular time in history that stands out to me is pre-Nazi-era Germany. Anti-semitism was simmering, and people turned to the religious works of Christian scholars to feed their hatred. For example, Martin Luther (founder of the Lutheran religion) provided delicious passages to justify their anti-jewish sentiment.

For those of us who are familiar with how dangerous religion can be, we see subtle and not-so-subtle resemblances between the people running our country and dangerous religious leaders of the past and even between our country and the middle-east.

Many Muslim women insist that the "Islamic" laws that oppress them aren't Islamic laws at all. They are man made laws created by greedy corrupt men who merely imposed their oppressive laws on the people and labeled them "Islamic" to maintain control. In other words, the Islamic relgion was hijacked by control freaks who weren't truly following the Islamic religion at all but using it as a tool to manipulate and control people.

Now here, over the past four years, we have an administration that uses religion as a manipulative tool. Bush claims he was put in position as our leader by God and then starts wars and feeds the rich and ignores the poor. WTF?? For a man who wraps himself in the bible so much it is unbelievable to me how little he seems to understand of the religion. He certainly doesn't practice what Jesus taught. And many religious scholars have called him on it. I've been printing out articles by Christian preachers for some time now who all claim that Bush is more or less a fraud pretending to be a Christian.

What's scary is how easily this administration has managed to manipulate people who claim to be Christian. Don't people see the contradictions and THINK about the fact that Jesus taught us to do pretty much the OPPOSITE of everything that Bush has done so far in his presidency.

I don't get why Christians everywhere aren't demanding that Bush stop hijacking their peaceful and good religion and stop making it appear as though it is a religion of hate and intolerance.

But I certainly do get why people who aren't Christians might be a little scared right now. Some people are already feeling oppressed. It is natural to lash out against those who do the oppressing. It's not necessarily "right." I'm not claiming that bashing Christians is right, though. Just explaining a point of view.

My opinion is that in addition to trying to get the Christian-bashers to stop bashing, Christians should also be calling out the people who are hijacking the religion and demanding they start ACTING like Christians. This administration is anything but Christian and anyone who claims to support it for "Christian" reasons is worthy of my contempt because their either unforgivably out-of-touch with who Jesus was or they're just a bunch of frauds also.

[Lexingtonian]

98. Well, this thread has been pretty comprehensive

We do live in the Modern Age, where theism becomes very extreme before -necessarily- being abandoned and giving way to humanism. Humanism is very imperfectly lived in our time, and the debate whether its nature is 'secular' or 'religious' is undecideable.

We're living in the last big theist backlash phase, too, so the old colonial import, the oppressive, extreme, unrelenting and unmoderated northern European Nature Theism/paganism and Ancient World Biblical occultism, when mixed together pretended to be Christianity, is the ubiquitous reactionary propaganda. The True Believers only stick by it all by willpower and bad faith and delusions.

Reading this thread...well, vetwife, the story of this age is that all pieties and idols are attacked and broken. Many people, professed Believers, in fact do worship Jesus of Nazareth as an idol- as they do God, and so also the Holy Spirit. Uncritically, without enough inner effort, without insight, without understanding that it's not Jesus that Christianity seeks to uplift- it's their own lives and spiritual maturity that are the true objects. Critics of this variety of belief call it all 'Christolatry'. And a great deal of the offense taken at criticism of Christianity here is people feeling their Christolatry being attacked. Much that passes for Christianity is not defensible against rational argument and experience, as I see it, but at the same time the true message to Jesus of Nazareth's life is untouchable. What can be salvaged is small in quantity (compared to what people expect) but makes up for it in quality, to me.

There is a long argument of exactly the kind waged in this thread about Christianity within my denomination/group (I'm with the RSoF), with much the same assertions and objections as voiced in this thread. I call myself post-Christian and post-theist, I admit. My Meeting (congregation) has many refugees from conservative Christian groups and members from liberal Islamic and Jewish backgrounds, and many 'birthright' Quakers as well as many so by 'convincement'. In sum, it seems our true faith lies in what we really do: that we live and die for the certain people in whom we personally find the Spirit and the living that witnesses to it. We live and die for the unspoilt children, for friends and lovers, for teachers and comrades in the greater tests given us, for the quiet moment in the garden at sunset in which Everything Is Present. Some of us even live or die for seeming strangers, people of whom we know little else yet in whom we've for a moment caught a glimpse of That.
Gods have many names, demand strange things; at times we find it impossible to believe in mankind as the embodiment of the spiritual power that defines the world, and we abstractify the power into a God. But we can do nothing of good with a God who does not return to infuse people with that power again, doesn't inspire them/us to goodness and fullness of love and passion and selfforgetting humility, to actions and words and purification and prayer, to songs and joy and willing suffering, to integrity. The real test of a God is the theotropism He inspires, says Evelyn Underhill.

[seabeyond]

103. i always say jesus does not need to be defended.

once we step to defending jesus, we step away from to know, faith. we question jesus, christ conscious, divine plan. we no longer have fatih. and there is a result in that

jesus is not so sensitive, doesnt take it personally, that is the nifty in jesus, and he still can love

now the man jesus, ..............i can sit and hold hand
but really i feel it in spirit, i like to use the word christ conscious which takes away from man, and gives to energy. all powerful

going to passion and execution, where i think they missed the boat on the gift. in that all the hate, jesus loved. think about that. that person throwing rocks in such anger tear and fear, jesus, loved

so it is not hard for me to look at the fundamentalist and see the anger the fear and the pain, and seeing them throw the rock so hard, cause they simply dont get it. jesus loves that person

and the person that drugs their body, and beats a child, and he sees this person is equally beating themselves, he loves that person

the asshole arrogant bush that has allowed power to take him so far from spirit in hypocrisy, i see christ shaking head in smile and you asshole. in love

[neebob]

102. Why take it personally?

I don't spend a lot of time reading here, but the "faith-bashing" posts I see are usually directed at right-wing fundamentalists - i.e., not members of this community. The others are bashing or, more accurately, making fun of a belief rather than believers. They're basically expressing disagreement. Why is that so bothersome? People who are secure in their faith shouldn't be shaken by it, in my opinion, coming from people they don't know personally. Words on a screen. And people who don't believe in God ought to be able to say so without fear of being chastised by those who do believe.

Aren't there enough things to be upset about, without adding people who disagree with you on one point?

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

113. as i scrolled down to the point of this site seeing du reading

their thread. the posts talking to us, cussing, nasty. is this the example of christinaity that vet is defending. insisting we give it a thumbs up

i ask as a fellow christian. as a christian, it just doesnt sit well in our teaching.

[Shakespeare]

116. Well, that's damn fascinating.

Hypocrisy? Methinks she should turn the mirror on herself.

[Kitka]

117. Unfortunately, it’s obvious she’s already made her “choice”.

Unfortunate because many of us who do speak up against religion bashing will get painted with her broad brush.

[seabeyond]

118. i dont see it as battle and choice.

and certainly on every religious thread, we have those that are patient with christian bashing, those offended by the bashing, and most threads i have participated on, we pretty much come to acceptance.

there have been many many religious threads. threads where we actively put in the effort, time and research to better understand the fundamentalist. above and beyond expectation. one of the things i am proud of progressives. their ability to accept others



one can chose to hear the few unthinking mouths, or the few that are just angry,........or see all the people that are trying to understand and embrace. the opportunity is there. it is a choice each of us make.

[vetwife]

126. You have that right

I didn't say that. I said here and on other sites that there is a difference between religion and faith.
Have any of you ever ever heard me try to cram christianity down your throat? NO that is Falwell's and Robinson's job. If any of you heard my CD, Take it Back and even listened to Howard Dean talk about reaching out to the people with different opinions to show we are not all the same then you would understand where I am coming from.
Remember Edwards and Sharpton jumped all over Howard Dean for that remark. He said take your opinions to the people with the bigotry and talk. Well left and right has some bogotry and I say what I think. Everywhere I go. There should be a separation of church and state. I am willing to take the heat to people who don't share my viewpoint on either side but I won't cram it down people's throats.
Tolerance...understanding...this is where I am.

[Kitka]

130. What didn’t you say?

I never quoted you. Perhaps you’re posting to the wrong person.

Judging from your post on the conservative site linked, your highlighting of the word “STUPID” and your statements pre-judging the responses, I think it’s safe to say you’ve already judged those that post at DU. That is what I said.

I have never had religion crammed down my throat here at DU and have never said as much.

[vetwife]

121. Will

I went over there in a rage about the death of Cheri.
I am reaching out to people here and everywhere I can.
I am so tired of fighting and the insanity of intolerance.
certainly not a hippocrit. Do you think I would post under my real name? IT is getting old losing elections. When one tries to make sanity out of some posts and some posters BASH in general people of all faiths, no matter where you are, a Buddhists, a Jewish person or
Hindu or Christian, to me it is not hitting the moderates.

I am working on a new CD and it is about faith. I do post on Miltary.com and seek truth or lack of it whereever I can find it. I say what I think and you know that.

As far as Yates, well, what can I say the woman is nuts.
I am still tore up about a future daughter in law being shot to death.

[WilliamPitt]

124. Fair enough

I should caution you, however, that posting at a forum that is dedicated to mocking and undermining this forum isn't going to make it easier for you to get people to listen. Were I you, I'd post there under a different name.

[Kitka]

125. Threatening to leave a website because

of some posters who surely don’t represent the whole of the Democratic party won’t help win elections, either, will it?

[seabeyond]

133. i am tired too vetwife

i am tired that my two boys, who went to a christian school for 6 years, last spring started being judged as a non christian. because they didnt validate the attacking of kerry, and glorifying bush to god status. i was proud they stood up for what they saw as a justice, and right, adn they did it in love. yet thru spring and into this fall, i got tired of watching my boys take attack after attack by both the christian adults, but more the christian children, that had been taught because of what boys believe they are not christian. and because they are not christian, they are fair game to attack adn ridicule.

yet in leaving that school, we continued to do it in love. as the school profusely apologized for the aggressive nature of their children, and as they professed that my son, that stood up for what was right, was the couragous child they want. and that the adults should have been backing them. i told them, nothing to apologize, adn please dont. this was a wonderful lesson for us. i am proud of my boys. they continually stayed in love. nothing to apologize for

it is not the non christians that have work to do in christianity. it is the job of the christians to be better. walk in christ lite. remove the bushel of hate and anger and fear so lite is shone. regardless of attack, that is what my oldest did. he allowed lite to shine. adn the brighter he became, the more angry the children became.

christianity is in crisis,........the religion, not the faith itself

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stanwyck]

115. Remember the Andrea Yates

posts? Our "people of faith" calling for the death of this clearly insane woman? Jesus believed that which you do the least of these, you do unto me. Yet last week we read posts from "people of faith" advocating death for the clearly insane Andrea Yates. Remember?
If you proclaim yourself a "person of faith" then you should have actually read The Bible and believe what is says.
Otherwise, this is all meaningless. And saying you "have faith" without practicing that faith insults us all.

[Kitka]

119. I speak up when it’s worth it.

Most people don’t have the time or inclination to correct every generalization and ridicule of religion, myself included. When I feel it’s worth a debate, I’ll speak up. Also, I am religious but not Christian, and people have very valid points about the spread of Christian fundamentalism that is becoming prevalent in the US. Most Christians I know would agree with that observation, too.

Just because some who are anti-religion are very vocal does not give you the right to blame the whole of the site and stomp off. Well, stomp off if you like, I don’t really mind. But generalize and put down an entire, diverse group of people while doing so, and you’ve shown your true colors.

[Desertrose]

120. because our country is polarized in everything now

* and cronies have changed the meaning of words...

bad=good
wrong=right

"Christians" are now thougth of as right wing fanatical fundie nutcases instead of decent people of faith....science & technology have been elevated to almost godlike status in the US and those who have faith & belief are made to feel the fool.

There are many reasons we've reached this point, but it is going to take us one heart at a time to change it. We are driven by fear and fueled by hatred. I am so sad to see my country turn into what is has become.

If we remember that underneath ...we are all the same...we breathe, eat, love and cry over the same things. Our hearts all beat to the same rhythm. We have people we love and care about....we don't have to hate or be afraid of others when we realize they are simply our extended family and there is truly enough to go around on this planet if we let go of FEAR.

I don't understand the reason to bash either...perhaps to make oneself feel a little "better" or more "right" in the choices they have made.....however, it reflects more on the one who bashes than anyone else.....

[seabeyond]

123. god....... your good desert rose. amen. n/t

[vetwife]

132. Oh so true

No one in their right mind who is in a crisis situation is going to refuse help or ask before (example) a person has had an accident and had a car fall on them, ...before they are rescued , will they ask, Are you a republican or democrat? Are you a person of faith? Do you drive a SUV? NO. We are all just people and need to try and figure out where people are and stop the hatred and Desert Rose is right..One heart at a time. Would we say, Get away from me and don't ask if I am Ok under this car because I have cut off everyone who is a republican, who might be a stauch Bush supporter, who does not agree with my idealogy. I have no use for you. Don't reach out to me, you supported the war. Leave me alone. That is a gross exaggeration of where people with different viewpoints on the left and right are. Stuck under a car and won't reach out. We will never ever win elections with that kind of thinking.

I am not wishy washy. I don't agree with anyone 100 percent of the time. Some of my best friends are aethists. I respect their right to non belief. I don't like having religion crammed on me. Have you all forgotten how I stand up on such issues? But, in the same token, we need to be the ones who are tolerant IMO of other people's viewpoints and maybe they will quit painting us with a broadstroke of not being patriotic or lacking in family values and morals. That has nothing to do with Religion but it has everthing to do with educating people of some viewpoints on the moderate side of things.
I by the way was not the first to say this. Howard Dean was.

[seabeyond]

137. look at you thread on the other board

did they.....

"maybe they will quit painting us with a broadstroke of not being patriotic or lacking in family values and morals."

did they quit. not even. further your post just stirred the juices to attack and paint that brush even more broad.

i think you got the opposite reaction of your intent. or maybe your post, suggest your intent was not to bring that other board in acceptance of us. but you

cause it certainly didnt allow that other board of seeing us as caring loving individuals, christians

[bobbyboucher]

131. A little over-dramatic today? So sorry.

This whole faith thing is a red herring. The Democrats are the Big Tent, Christians, atheists, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. etc., etc., we will win when things get shitty enough for the morans to realize they have been had, and the apathetic to get off thier asses and vote for change. It is coming.

If someone is stupid enough to be bowled over by a Christian goading quote taken from a discussion board, then they weren't going to vote the progressive way anywho.

Is free speech OK with you or not?

[Shakespeare]

134. You're looking at the wrong battle, vetwife.

And you've fallen for the "us v. them" garbage, which is exactly what they want you to do.

The fight at hand is NOT between believers and non-believers--the fight is with those who are attempting to take over Christianity and use it for their own, un-Christ-like ends.

They claim to be victimized by our Constitution (!), and either willfully ignore or are simply ignorant of what the founding fathers actually had to say about issues of church and state. They claim that they can use the mantle of Christianity to launch an unprovoked war, to slaughter thousands, to marginalize those they fear (gays and women and anyone perceived as "different"). They feed on hatred and anger and intolerance and violence. What they practice is an abomination, it is not Christianity.

Do not defend that. And, more important, do not let yourself be fooled into thinking that the fight within the church is less important than their imagined, propagandized fight against non-believers. And understand--because I think it's obvious that you don't understand right now--that their tactic for keeping their bogus hold on Christianity is to distract and try to convince you that those nasty non-believers are your worst enemy. They aren't. The enemy is within.

The issue is not making the democratic party more tolerant--we ARE the tolerant party, for crying out loud--the issue is reclaiming Christianity from those who have twisted it into something truly vile.

[Q]

135. Politics and Religion...a blend destructive to democracy...

...Religion is being forced down America's throat through politics. Many don't seem to understand why Jefferson and others erected a 'wall of separation between church and state'. They didn't want another church state like that of England.

And now we see the next step to create a church state. Legislation is being proposed (and probably will pass) to allow churches to CAMPAIGN for certain candidates and still keep their tax exempt status.

Religion should have NOTHING to do with politics. History shows us why.

[ThorsHammer]

138. We need to seperate religious DUers from the theocons (?)

(Not sure if that's the right word, I'm referring to the Rapture, 'kill em all and let God sort em out' crowd)

Most religious DUers seem to be people who follow the positive aspects of their faith - charity, concern for others, peace, etc. Most of the religious DUers are also displeased with the way others use religion as a club. IMO, it doesn't serve any purpose to bash the religious DUers, as they aren't the ones giving religion a bad name.

[bloom]

139. First off - I don't believe ANY (presidential) politicians faith anymore.

Since it has become impossible to win office without - it has become something anyone would have to lie about. So I don't assume that any of them believe anything. That includes Kerry, Gore, Clinton, Bush, Reagan....


Second - whatever churches use their power and authority to influence the political process and the public at large - toward their conservative agenda - are fair game.


You may not realize it - but there is a war of sorts where some people are more influenced by liberal ideas - lowering the population - reducing adverse effects on the environment - supporting civil and equal rights for women which at least at least one Christian denomination actively works against. As much as the Republicans are aligned with that - I am working against all of them.


On edit: You obviously do realize there is a war of sorts. What side are you on?

[vetwife]

141. I am

on Truth's side. I am a moderate. I am outspoken. I believe probably more than anyone that faith has been hijacked. You don't have to be a right winger to have faith. You don't have to be a republican to be moderate. You don't have to be a democrat to have feelings. I am searching for truth and honesty and want people on both sides to respect one another. I say EXACTLY what I think. I have ticked off the right. I have ticked off the left. I have ticked off the middle but I know we are all Americans and tolerance for one another is very important.

I cannot stand Rush and as many talk shows as I have been on folks should know that. I cannot stand some on the left as they are just hate bashing as bad, in a different perspective. I think it is past time to try to come together and see if we can be tolerant of one another. That is the side I am on. Someone has to take the 1st step. Agree to disagree and debate and discuss.

[bloom]

143. Without you talking about specific examples

it sounds like you could be saying that if someone disagrees with you - it's "bashing".

I think people should discuss it in the threads they are talking about instead of going on other threads and complaining that people bash christians on threads when nobody even has on the thread that they are on.

I also agree with the people who say if they state their beliefs that it is not bashing - even though I've seen people be accused of such. It sounds like attempt to shut them up.

[vetwife]

145. Check this out and ask me why I am seeking truth?

You moptherfuckin cunt

keep yor fuckin mouth shut you goddamn traitor or I will kick yor faggot traitor cunt husbands worhtless ass.

You are a stain on this great nation, you support a traitor and liar and fraud

You need tobe arrested and imprisoned

FOR YOUR FAGGOT HUSBAND-FUCK YOU YOU YELLOW PIECE OF SHIT TRAITOR
...................................................................

I started posting on a lot of boards after I got this to find out why the hatred is so monstrous ! I don't know where it came from. I have always defended my moderate position. I am a veterans adovate. I am a person of faith and I get bashed from all sides.
This letter was one of many of the hate mail that I got from the right. I have been bashed for having an opinion on all sides. I am an individual and am trying to help stop the hate on both sides. If I can reach out with this kind of stuff coming at me and a murder in the family, then why question me and my motives. I speak up. I have friends on this board. I have friends in real life who are republicans, libertarians, no faith. I reach out and explain that I love my country and my faith and being in opposite views does not make me the enemy. I am trying to be tolerant and want this country to stop the hatred on all sides.

[Shakespeare]

147. Please see my post #134

The kind of vile, hateful garbage you posted above is exactly what I'm talking about. Remember, that came from the right, not the left.

You're overlooking where the real battle is. We have to take Christianity back from the right. Our party is tolerant of all religions--the right is NOT.

[Az]

149. To make a difference you have to take chances

But you must recognise that you are taking chances. When you seek to make a difference you are going to run into those that do not want change and those that want different change.

You are not going to be able to stop hatred. But what you can do is shine a light on it so that everyone can see it for the ugliness it represents. This usually sends it skuttling back under the rocks where it lives.


There is also the problem that some hatred comes from actually being mistreated by other's hatred. Its going to take more than soft words and promises to sooth their anger. And they are not likely to run from a bright light. They are responding to hypocracy and thus wish more light to be brought to bear on the subject to show the hypocracy.

There is no reconciliation for some. Fred Phelps and the homosexual community (or any reasonable community for that matter) will never be reconciled. Work on those that can be reconciled and bring them together as a force to send the malicious hater back to their holes. Have sympathy for those that have been abused by others and hate as a result. In this way you may be able to ease their feelings.

[Greylyn58]

148. I have always felt

that my belief in God was a personal matter. I was raised an Assoc. Reformed Presbyterian or ARP as I call it, but as I grew older I became disillusioned with what I felt was a creeping meanness in my church and in all organized religions. So I left.

Every religion claims to be the correct one and I won't say all, but the vast majority state if you don't practice and believe as this version dictates you are basically a heathen and have no hope. I've always found that aspect of organized religion to be repulsive. Especially when you consider that all organized religions are the invention of mankind.

I think our Founding Fathers were extremely wise when they said there should be a separation of church and state. At the time, this country was mostly a nation of Protestant religions of one form or another. I'm sure they never imagined how this little experiment in democracy would grow. Or how as the years passed, more and more people would come here...people from all different religious and ethnic backgrounds, wanting to practice their personal beliefs in a free setting. That's why I find what is happening now to be very disturbing. This wave of religious fervor sweeping over this country is frightening to me in its implications. All manner of evil is being perpetrated in the name of Jesus and it horrifies me.

My personal belief is that the people running around claiming to be so moral and upstanding and religious, whether they are in the White House, his staff or the fundie crowd simply aren't. Because they don't practice the most basic principles that Jesus gave us.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." My personal Golden Rule

"You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also"
Matthew 5.38

Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword."
Matthew 26, 52

I think Shrub and his crowd would do well to remember that last one.

Sorry if I went off on a tangent, but I started typing and couldn't seem to stop. I think that all the religious rancor that now is invading this board and around this country needs to stop or all we've done is fulfill OBL's ultimate purpose of tearing this country apart. Because we will have done it to ourselves.

Just my personal opinion and I hope I haven't upset anyone because it wasn't my intention to do so.

:)

[vetwife]

150. I so want a country that is not divided

I know push has come to shove. I remember when people just tried to overlook ignorance and not lash out. I remember when being a republican or a democrat did not make one an enemy. I remember when people thought that people were not loony toons for having an opinion.
I remember when pushing agendas was not the test of patriotism.
Is this dream just that? Is it a dream that people can find their way back to civility and stop the hate?

[Shakespeare]

151. Do you understand why that happened?

All of those things you list were pushed by the right. NOT the left. Not by non-Christians.

YOU ARE OVERLOOKING THE REAL PROBLEM. The real problem is not tolerance on the left--the left is the only place one can even find tolerance. The real problem is the hatred and ignorance cloaked in religion that the right is using to divide this country. Nixon even had a name for it--"the southern stragegy." That has morphed into the red state/blue state nonsense.

You are chastising exactly the wrong group of people.

[Selwynn]

153. I think everyone knows I speak up. However:

...I just haven't been around as much lately.

I think we have to blame the increasing hold of religious extremists over politics that causes everyone to be a little "on edge" about the subject of faith.

Let's face it - faith has been frequently abused. People have repeatedly used the excuse of faith to do the worst kinds of things. It's understandable that it may seem very dangerous, frightening, even unhealthy or wrong to people who do not hold spiritual beliefs.

But while I understand all of that - it is no excuse. It is no excuse for insulting, demeaning, disgusting rhetoric that treats someone you disagree with as an enemy. There's no excuse to act like an asshole.

Unfortunately, there are as many "fundamentalist" dogmatic atheists as there are fundamentalist Christians. They are totally convinced to extremely certainty that they are absolutely right on all of their views about the non-existence of God and harbor no seriously acknowledgment of the possibility that they might be wrong. They are right, everyone else is wrong. That's fundamentalist, dogmatic thinking.

It's unfortunate, because I certainly don't feel that way about my own beliefs, and I don't think anyone should feel that way about anything they think they "know" to be true. I do believe that I have appropriately understood some realities about the world and my experience of it - I do believe that I have found an appropriate language (I believe all religion is essentially language) by which to interpret the experiences of my life -- but I am not what I can call "certain." I believe that certainty is a myth.

I reserve a small place of myself that is willing to accept the possibility that I could be wrong and someone else, an atheist of example, could be right. Therefore I give atheists more tolerance, benefit of the doubt, room to have their own point of view, and freedom than many atheists give me here on these boards. I act less "fundamentalist" and less dogmatic as a religious person than many (thought not all) atheists I encounter on the forums. That seems sad to me.

[Skinner]

155. I'm locking this. (nt)