Abortion: Defend those parental notification laws to me again?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

BIRMINGHAM, Alabama (AP) -- A woman angry with her 12-year-old daughter for having sex forced the girl to drink bleach and sat on her until the child died, a police detective said.

The girl's 9-year-old brother was forced to watch the attack, Detective Warren Cotton testified Thursday in a preliminary hearing for Tunisia Archie, 31.





http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/01/14/daughter.killed.ap/

[ContraBass Black]

1. I can't think of defending anything at the moment

Because of how sickening this is.

[politicat]

2. What is WRONG with some people?

How can anyone do that to someone they supposedly love?

The poor girl. The poor boy. Mom deserves no pity.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. Right..but this is my EXACT issue with states such as Florida where it

is now required that parents be notified...I have NO idea what the religious persuasion is of the mother in this case...but one need not even read the bible to have a "spare the rod, spoil the child" attitude. I believe laws such as this will lead to more babies left in trashcans and more teens being brutalized by their parents for making a mistake.

(btw...just responding to you since you were there to respond to..not lecturing you..I know you know :) )

[Solly Mack]

4. Even w/o reading that story I couldn't defend them

having read that story...


:mad:

[TwilightZone]

5. I'm not sure what the connection is to abortion.

She wasn't pregnant. She had sex.

By the way, I'm about as pro-choice and anti-notification law as it gets. I just don't see what this event has to do with abortion.

Edit: clarity

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

8. Real simple..kid tells mom she had sex..kid gets killed

One must have sex to get pregnant...this is EXACTLY why the privacy laws existed as they did...to PROTECT teens.

[TwilightZone]

9. Oh, come on.

That's quite the stretch. News flash - not everyone who has sex gets pregnant.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. No..it isn't s stretch at all..but to please you..I will repost when

a pregnant teen is killed by one of her parents for being pregnant since it WILL happen.

[TwilightZone]

12. I'm sorry, but your leap of logic is just that - a leap.

If you really believe that this story has ANYTHING to do with abortion, no one is going to change your mind.

Have a nice day.

[DrWeird]

23. Dodge, dodge, dodge.

The story doesn't have to do with notification laws, notification laws have to do with the story.

Or are you just clowning around?

[TwilightZone]

29. Wrong.

Where? There is absolutely NOTHING in that story that has anything to do with notification laws.

Notification laws are about the intent to have an abortion.

There CAN'T BE A NOTIFICATION if THERE ISN'T GOING TO BE AN ABORTION. THERE ISN'T EVEN A PREGNANCY.

[Caution]

13. umm newsflash #2 everyone who gets pregnant has sex

(for the purpose here test tube babies and immaculate conceptions are left out of this).

The point is that if a doctor must notify a parent that a child wants an abortion than the parent knows that child is sexually active and may get the treatment this "mother" gave to her child.

There are many other reasons to oppose notification laws as well but this is one of them

[TwilightZone]

20. Where does the article say anything about a doctor notifying anyone?

It doesn't. That's the point.

Notification laws have nothing to do with whether or not a 12-year-old kid tells her parents that she's sexually active.

There is no connection between notification laws and this event.

None.

[DrWeird]

22. What part aren't you understanding?

Notification laws require girls to tell parents that they're having sex.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

ok.....let...me...post...a...little....slower...for....you....

Notification is a manner of INFORMING.

That is exactly what this girl did. She informed her mother she had sex. One must have sex to get pregnant.

Do you believe the mother's rage would have been lessened were she informed the child were pregnant?

As I said. Since this story displeases you, I will wait until a PREGNANT teen is killed by her parent to repost, since it WILL happen.

[TwilightZone]

34. And Ray Charles is God.

n/t

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

35. Obtuse n/t

[TwilightZone]

36. It's an old joke. And very appropriate.

God is love.
Love is blind.
Ray Charles is (was) blind.

Therefore, Ray Charles is God.

That is exactly the type of connection you are making.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. Not at all...

AGAIN FOR THE LOGICALLY IMPAIRED...this girl had sex and told her mother and ended up dead. MANY teens will be forced to tell their parents or a doctor will as a result of abortion notification laws. The fact that you REFUSE to see the connection does not speak to the lack of connection or relationship. It speaks to your refusal to see.

[Yupster]

69. What if this crazy lady killed her daughter

because she drank a beer?

What would that prove?

I think this just proves there are some really sick people out there.

Who knows. Some day a mother may drown her kids in a lake, or kill them one by one.

Nah - no one could be that sick.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

71. Again, those arguing with me are forced to be far more speculative than I

There is a direct relationship between this girl telling her mother she had sex and her mother killing her..at least according to the story..obfuscate all you want.

[Yupster]

81. You don't make laws based on what

some wacko woman does.

Wackos do lots of wacho things. That shouldn't influence what the rest of us can and can't do. If it did there would be a law against everything.

Hell, the Son of Sam said he killed people because his dog told him to. Should that be used as a reason to pass laws?

And against what?

Against dogs? Against lovers lanes? against guns? against cars?

He was just a wacko and so was this lady in your story.

She should have no influence on what I can or can't do.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

83. Good policy should take into account the worst possible consequence

Are you telling me that parents who beat their kids are far and few between? I think FACTS would tend to get in the way of your opinion.

[Yupster]

86. I don't even think that makes sense

"Good policy should take into account the worst possible consequences."

Well the worst possible consequence of me driving my car to work is I run over 12 six year olds. That doesn't mean we should ban cars.

Yes there are parents who beat and even kill their kids. But that doesn't mean parents should have their belts taken from their pants or their knives taken from their kitchens.

You don't take away everybody's rights because of what some dipsh**s do.

My god. Some kid listens to a rap song and then rapes his girlfriend. You don't ban rap music do you?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

87. Good...notification laws take away the minor's rights

I am not banning anything.

[saltpoint]

59. In effect you are suggesting that if a local, --

-- county or federal agency cuts off funding for a given program, then the impact of the program is not related to money.

The original poster is exactly right about notification laws, which have at their root the putrid whiff of moralism, meaning that minors should not have abortions without telling their parents.

Coitus, pregnancy, and abortion are stations on the same cross. Notification laws extinguish privacy for children and put Old Testament smite powers into the hands of parents, including into this Alabama woman's hands, and she doubtless felt her anger represented the moral thing to do.

The connection is not theoretical but certain.

[alittlelark]

68. Do you really believe that is a logical comparison,

or are you just baiting or something?

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

64. And in your logic web sites, that is known as an ad hominem attack

Me thinks someone needs to google that one ;-)

[EC]

65. If the mother is this extreme at hearing

that her child had sex, just think about what this mother would have done if the child got pragnant and the courts required the doctor to get the parental consent before helping the child? That's not such a far fetched thought is it?

[Pithlet]

77. No one is saying it does.

This IS, however, a perfect exmample of WHY parental notification laws are a bad idea. It doesn't have to explicitly mention them, or abortion, for that to be so.

[DrWeird]

16. Yes, but everybody who is pregnant has had sex.

For the most part.

So that means there's thousands of teens out there who are risking a beating if they tell their parent that they're pregnant.

Which is why it's sick for people wanting to have a law enforcing girls to tell their parents.

Duh.

[TwilightZone]

25. And what does that have to do with anything?

The kid had sex. She told her mom. Her mom killed her.

What does that have to do with notification laws?

I'll answer for you - NOTHING. Notification laws don't require KIDS to tell their parents that they've had sex. Notification laws require that authorities and doctors notify parents if their kids are intending to have an abortion.

Abortion. Not sex. Abortion. Not pregnancy. Abortion.

Now, where again is the connection?

As I mentioned, I'm as pro-choice and anti-notification law as it gets. But, making a connection between this freak killing her kid and abortion notification laws - when there isn't even a pregnancy involved, for God's sake - is ludicrous.

[DrWeird]

28. How can you have an abortion without having sex?

?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

33. ROFLMAO...so if the kid gets pregnant without sex, then no problem

[saltpoint]

44. "Laws of morality" have at their root --

-- identifiable bigotries.

Notification laws ostensibly involve abortion but because pregnancy is a biological option result of coitus, the connection is not only biological but legal.

And thereby ethical as well.

Notification laws give Old Testmament powers to parents, including to parents like this one in Alabama. Evidently the daughter here didn't even NEED to be pregnant or NEED to have an abortion for her to be drowned in bleach and suffocated.

The connection is not theoretical, but real.

Way too real in this one Alabama household.

----
edit: 'Law' to 'Laws'

[HEyHEY]

60. Are you taking a piss?

"I'll answer for you - NOTHING. Notification laws don't require KIDS to tell their parents that they've had sex. Notification laws require that authorities and doctors notify parents if their kids are intending to have an abortion.

Abortion. Not sex. Abortion. Not pregnancy. Abortion.

Now, where again is the connection?"

You honestly can't see the connection.

Look, naturally our bodies can reproduce at a certain age. Therefore it's the BUSINESS of the owner of that body SOLEY what they do with it.

The only thing keeping all this shit so taboo is our society and it's view on what age sex is acceptable at.

No good comes from the whole family knowing that little Jenny is pregnant. It only means more fear and humilation for the girl. ANd MANY a young woman has killed herself because of such humiliation.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

80. The business of the owner

So my son can get cancer at age 9, does that make it HIS business? Nope fucking likely.

It's my business as his mother.

I decide treatment. I decide care.

Not you. Not the state.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

85. Can your son get pregnant? If not, you have no point.

[HEyHEY]

58. touche

[Zenlitened]

24. I don't think that's the point that was being made at all.

What's so hard to understand here?

A child tells her parent(s) she had sex, she may risk being brutalized.

A child tells her parent(s) she is pregnant, she may risk being brutalized.

Simple.

It illustrates the possibility that parental notification laws may put girls in danger if there is dysfunction in their home.

[Shakespeare]

27. Not a stretch at ALL.

Hell, I can't even imagine how the woman would've reacted if she'd learned the child had sex AND was pregnant. :-(

[Salviati]

32. Yers, but...

If you need to notify your parents that you need an abortion, then you are pregnant, and thus unless you've been speaking to the angel Gabrel lately, you've had sex...

[msmcghee]

41. Yes but . .

. . everyone who gets pregnant had sex.

[EC]

55. to go to planned parenthood or one's doctor

and request the pill...parental consent is needed

[MissB]

6. I detest abortion notification laws

And I can see the point you are trying to make, even if I think it is a bit of a stretch in this case.

The mom was a sick fuck. She killed her kid because the girl had sex, not because she was preggers.

[Yupster]

70. Agree MissB but

the mother was a sick f**k. She killed her daughter because she had sex, but she just as easily could have killed her because she talked to the wrong person or failed a math test or talked back to her.

Who knows what such a sick f**k mother would do.

This lady who just got her deal overturned who drowned her kids. I don't think any of them told her they were having sex but she killed them anyway? Why?

Maybe just because she was a sick f**k.

[SomeYoungGuy]

7. This sounds about right.

I remember reading a draft of the law that said if the parents were notified and didn't approve of the child having sex, they could make their child drink bleach & then sit on them until they died. </sarcasm>

Are you suggesting that dozens of parents are going to do evil things to their daughters until they're dead because of a parental notification law? Is this the best reason we can come up with for opposing parental notification?

Actually, I didn't know there were any proposals for parental notification laws in the case of minors having sex, I thought the notification laws were for minors having abortions.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

10. Wow..you obfuscate better than the other posters

THIS IS EXACTLY WHY THE MINOR'S PRIVACY WAS PROTECTED IN MATTERS INVOLVING ABORTION.

So what, the kid wasn't pregnant..this was the point!

[SomeYoungGuy]

15. The obfuscating was in the original post.

The original poster intentionally drew a non-existent connection between parental notification laws for abortion for minors and a specific news story which had nothing to do with abortion. My post was intended to point out the deception.

We'll continue to struggle to win support for our positions (or at least the important elections) as long as we use such deceptive tactics.

On edit: The abortion/parental notification angle is a straw man fallacy and including it in this specific story does nothing to defend a minor's right to abortion.

[TwilightZone]

17. This doesn't involve abortion.

And the reason that no one is getting your point is because this event has nothing to do with abortion notification laws.

Notification laws require authorities to notify parents of their kid's intent to have an abortion. They have nothing to do with whether or not a kid tells his or her parents that he or she is sexually active.

There is no connection.

[DrWeird]

26. It involves parental notification.

Some how that parent was notified her daughter was having sex.

That's why she killed her.

[noamnety]

30. Of course there's a connection

"Notification laws require authorities to notify parents of their kid's intent to have an abortion. They have nothing to do with whether or not a kid tells his or her parents that he or she is sexually active."

I don't understand why anyone has trouble seeing a connection between notifying a parent that their child wants an abortion, and notifying a parent that their is sexually active. When you notify them of the first part, you in effect are notifying them of the second part.

And when you tell a parent that their kid is sexually active, a certain percent of them WILL have a violent and abusive reaction, just as in this story.

[sonicx]

50. dude...if a parent is told their kids is having an abortion...

it means they HAD SEX!

[Pithlet]

78. Plenty of people are getting her point.

I had no problem with it at all, in fact.

[saltpoint]

21. We don't need "dozens" of cases.

One instance is too many.

This was an act of overt brutality. No parent -- whether one or "dozens" -- has the right to murder children.

Do you doubt that this killing occurred because that parent in Alabama wanted control of her child's private life? Or that her belief in a God of Punishment justified the violence she visited upon her daughter?

Notification laws have these two elements at their root.

[Solly Mack]

31. Exactly

It's so easy to understand.

[SomeYoungGuy]

38. I believe this was not because of notification

This woman killed her child because she is a brutal, despicable human being.

The child having sex was just an excuse for her to do something brutal. If she could do this to her child because the child was having sex, she's probably done similar things in the past, just not to the point of death.

The child having sex and the mom brutalizing her for it are 2 different choices; the child having sex didn't *cause* her own death at the hands of her mother. It was her mother's excuse for being brutal. It's probably just as likely she'd eventually kill the girl over something else (a wrecked car, drugs in the house, etc.)

On edit: formatting & spelling

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

45. OK now you are the one that is stretching since you are assuming facts

not in evidence but for the fact that the mother wasn't the greatest crisis manager.

My point is far more easy to correlate than yours...

[SomeYoungGuy]

51. That's exactly my point, but you understate it.

"the mother wasn't the greatest crisis manager"

The mother could have also walked away and said nothing. Instead, she made the conscious decision to brutalize her daughter. The daughter didn't kill herself by having sex. The mother chose to kill her daughter for what was a relatively lame reason.

The difference in our positions: I'm not inserting any into the story that wasn't already there, you're using the story to make a statement about a subject which isn't related. The abortion connection was intentionally deceptive. I'm not taking offense to minors having sex or abortions, I'm taking offense to your deception.

Think of it this way: would you have made the same connection if the girl had come home & notified her mom that she wrecked the car, and then the mom killed her?

On edit: More freakin' spelling & grammar errors.

[sonicx]

52. sex and abortion are related. car wrecks and sex aren't. nt

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

62. no. The law I referenced pertains to privacy laws not the vehicle code

There was nothing deceptive about my post but there are loads of assumptions in your post...especially the one about the mother making a conscious decision since you have absolutely no knowledge of her state of mind in the moment...and the "conscious" decision is a bit contradictory to the "rage" you describe elsewhere in your posts.

Perhaps you should focus on the internal inconsistencies of your own logic before taking me to task for what you allege are mine.

[Zenlitened]

48. Let the back-pedaling begin...

:eyesroll:

[saltpoint]

49. You rightly find fault in the parent's behavior but --

-- do not address the connection between parental notification laws and individual parents' parenting.

Notification laws put the power of an Angry God into the hands of parents who believe that their children "sin." Ostensibly they address parental notification of abortion, but abortion is not possible without pregnancy, which is (almost) impossible without coitus.

If these are stations on the same cross biologically then they are connected legally and ethically.

I'm absolutely convinced this Alabama woman felt she was morally justified in her rage.

[saltpoint]

14. What you are contributing to this news story --

-- is illumination and perspective, two traits in complete absence in that Alabama woman's household, from the sound of it.

(Said this to you in the prior post but wanted to say it again.)

I can't say I was much lifted by the news event itself -- it's impossible to be emotionally buoyed by an Old Testament murder in modern Alabama -- but I appreciate very much the agile thinking you brought to the scene.

Parental notification laws are police acts.

You nailed it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

18. Thanks..glad a couple other people get it

while the rest go..."wait..I didn't see anything about abortion in that story"

[Zenlitened]

39. Where do babies come from?

I thought it involved a stork, but the other kids at school say babies come from a cabbage patch.

:D

[kalibex]

40. It's called...

...'Deliberate Obtuseness'...

-B

[EVDebs]

19. Irrelevent if girls get "Morning After Pill" , aka Plan B, education

Is the 'rhythm method' the ONLY propylactic method of birth control the 'control' phreaks will allow ?

""The findings led the study authors to conclude that easy access to Plan B, also called the morning-after pill, could reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies while posing no apparent risk to women.""

from :

'Morning-After Pill Study Contradicts Claim by Foes
Easy Access Did Not Lead to Riskier Behavior'
by Marc Kaufman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, January 5, 2005; Page A09
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48377-2005Jan4.html

The whole issue of abortion becomes more and more IRRELEVENT as more and more girls/women become aware of this. Information is POWER and these control phreaks cannot handle that !

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

37. Good point..but try buying one of those over thecounter in Alabama

BTW..belated welcome to DU..have enjoyed several of your posts and LOVE your handle.

[EVDebs]

72. Thanks. I'm just getting warmed up. "All greased and ready to

Kick Ass" as Sha Na Na once said ! This post shocked the beejesus out of me. Some seriously screwed up woman pouring bleach down her kid...This wasn't no Wisteria Lane thing they can blame on Hollywood, no sireebob.

[David Zephyr]

43. A great case in point, NSMA.

:thumbsup:

[sonicx]

46. Good point, and anyone who says they don't get it is playing dumb...

[arcos]

47. A 12 year old was having sex? Where was that mother?

I guess whether it was really consensual or not would depend on the age of the man who had sex with her... if he is 12 years old or 20 years old.

But in any case... are most young people having sex at 12 nowadays? I'm only 24, but it didn't use to be this way...

[supernova]

54. More than you might assume

a lot of it has to do with early onset of puberty.

You are only 24? Where have you been? You went to school with some of these young'uns and didn't realize it. :-)

[arcos]

67. maybe...

But I imagine I would have heard about it...

[DrWeird]

57. Yes, it did.

There were twelve year olds having sex when I was a kid, there were twelve year olds having sex when your great grandmother was a kid.

What that has to do with anything, I haven't the foggiest.

[arcos]

66. well, I know but I think it would be better if it didn't happen...

And it does have a lot to do.

This mother who killed her daughter probably didn't teach her anything about sex... it was probably a sin to talk about it in that home.

[killbotfactory]

73. Probably getting drunk at the bar while her boyfriend molested her child

Or some fucked up situation like that.

Obviously she is not the most stable of people.

[supernova]

53. This is exactly WHY parental notification laws

don't work. Ugh. That poor kid. I don't think any of us can imagine her suffering.

The whole story makes my skin crawl. :scared:

And anybody who thinks this kid did the right thing by telling her mother can kiss my ass. :nuke:

[HEyHEY]

56. That's nuts

Was this anywhere else? I see these fucked up stories but they get NO coverage.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

63. Apparently it happened in November, but when I googled the mother's name

the only other story that was available referred only to her competency to stand trial.

[EVDebs]

74. NSMA, ... maybe if that mother, who obviously didn't know about

'morning after pill' Plan-B, had herself been better educated on the options she wouldn't have phreaked and overreacted (to say the least).

Ignorance is deadly. And maybe the mother was projecting fears of unwed motherhood on her child, now in the age of welfare cutbacks and she was looking at the train coming down the tunnel thinking there's now way out... and and...

She just didn't stop to think. What are the options ?

[bloom]

75. The only people that I have heard defend parental notification laws

recently were a couple of wackos with a show on a christian right-wing radio station (and the ditto-heads who called in).

I'm sure they thought were being very moral. I think not. I don't think they were thinking of the best interest of girls at all.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

79. Yep...no regard at all for the young woman

[youngred]

76. ugh

That is the reason I am so opposed to parental notification laws right there.

[jonnyblitz]

82. Let me guess without even reading through all the responses.

I bet the majority, if not all, of the people who took issue with your stance on this thread are men. :eyes:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

84. Good answer

all but one ....keep it up and I'm gonna start calling you Miss Cleo :evilgrin:

[ErinGoBraghLess]

88. parental notification

Hi DU! Brand spanking new DU member and this is my first message. Just so you all know, I am a 38 year old attorney named Erin, married with two little kids.

I can't say I'm against parental notification laws. I would want to know if my teenage daughter was having something done to her body of such magnitude.

[bloom]

89. My answer to that

is - people should stay on good terms with their daughters - so their daughters want to tell them.