So science effort lands us on a rock in space...

[SHRED]

and we are killing our air under 100 year old technology called the internal combustion engine.
Soiling our bed while reaching for the stars.

Mankind is fucking nuts.

[annabanana]

1. If only it were powered by "faith-based" science..

We could be looking at the first pictures of the pearly gates.

[brainshrub]

2. We may be nuts, but I listened to sounds from Titan this morning.

It blew my mind.

We live in an age of miracles.

Here's the link to hear it yourself: http://planetary.org/sounds/huygens_sounds.html

[roguevalley]

3. the space thing is the only good thing we do. I love space

[oscar111]

4. space bottom priority

i love space too, but it comes last.

feeding humans comes tops.

Space is funded because its spending is guaranteed profit rake-off for the Great Weapons Firms.. who just happen to make the rockets. Possibly probes, i dont know about them.

Shaw's play major barbara, coined GWF's, IIRC.

GWF's began in rockets as war weapons. Now, just nice easy money from the tax pool. That's why we have a manned space station, when most scientists say its work could more cheaply be done by robotics.. and no lives lost.

Every Shuttle launch destroys half a billion tax dollars. Scrap the tragic shuttle. Spend on the homeless and the 12 million hungry americans. Bush just cut food stamps, so make that 13 million, friends. Bush is christian?

4 Billion would end all homlssness.

8 Shuttle launches scrapped would do that. One year of scrapping would end all homelessness, with 2 Billion left over for more cops, firefighters, whatever.

[SHRED]

6. Yeah the space program has helped...

line the pockets of corporate "defense" contractors.
Public funded technology for private company gain.
It's the American way.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

9. Space has opened the doors to many breakthroughs

We live in a great universe. We ignore the opportunities of space at our own peril.

[oscar111]

10. Spin-offs all cheaper if direct research, not space spinoffs

research on this topic found that a mountain of spending on rockets yielded a molehill of loudly trumpted spinoffs.

Much, much cheaper would have been direct groundbased lab research toward spinoffs.

Like teflon pans.

big deal.

Lets put the spinoffs myth to rest. R I P.

analogy: consider this: massive research {funded on the scale of the Moon effort} on better farming methods would also doubtless create unintended spinoff discoveries. Better to get spinoffs from HELPING-HUMAN type of research, than from USELESS space research.

[SHRED]

11. Oh yeah?

Name 5 technologies that ONLY a space program could have provided, and that benefit humanity as a whole.

[oscar111]

14. Right! direct path research, not hoping for spinoffs, is the way

spinoff myth is hype to get the public to support massive NASA waste as 100 000 die in the streets of our cities. In broad daylight... the homeless.

[ashmanonar]

16. i can name one off the top of my head

and that's weather satellites...how many lives have been saved by weather satellites that could see a hurricane forming and warn the people that live in that region?

hmm...can i name any others? :/

i believe some cancer research was conducted in space, taking advantage of the zero-g for something or other...

a lot of aerospace science was learned by going into space, learning how to build aircraft that can fly faster and higher...too bad they're military aircraft, and have no purpose but dropping bombs and firing missiles...:/

someone above named teflon, which along with a half-dozen other manufactured textiles ({nomex, polystyrene, etc}which were first created in space) has aided in fire and disaster assistance (fire-suits, ropes that can hold more weight with less material, etc)

ok, my brain has exhausted its knowledge of space trivia...

now, just bc i believe space-research has its benefits doesn't mean that i don't think using the money for other purposes would be beneficial...

but then, how much money has bush spent making bigger craters in afghanistan and iraq? how much could that money have done?

just a thought...

[oscar111]

20. Cancer work by robotics, cheaper:texitles could have been done on the grou

ground.

I am not against all space.. just the highly wasteful human trips and distant probes, and many rather useless satelittes.
Like Hubble.

weather sats are a point i give to you. They BTW are not unexpected spinoffs of launches with other goals, like some moon landing. They are direct space work.

I keep the win on the points of human trips and Hubble and planetary probes at this time.

As long as people are hungry and unhoused, and unmedicated, and jobless, we must be extremely selective on space spending.

Hoping for rare spinoffs does not convince me to spend on space.

[ashmanonar]

25. yea, i don't disagree with you

there's a lot that could be done with the money our government just throws away every day...i just think that there is something about space travel that if lost, will never be recaptured...it is our one last escape route, our elevator into the universe, so that we can find new earths to live on...

heh, sorry for the poetic crap. just my personal opinion.

[oscar111]

30. wont have to escape, if we clean up our act here on earth

escape, and then what? more ignore poverty on Mars? then escape needed again, and so on and so on.

Let ending poverty be the inspiration, not escape to do poverty on mars all over again.

Lost? lose inspiration to do what? explore space? that can be done later. If YOU were starving, what would you prioritize?

[ashmanonar]

33. true. n/t

[RC]

29. And you take on the war?

What is it? $187 billion, that we know about and growing.

[Cooper]

31. walking on the moon

was probably man's single greatest accomplishment thus far.

[soothsayer]

43. feh, nobody's giving the homeless money. even Jesus said

there's always going to be poor people. It's not science's fault.

[Nomad559]

5. The Best of Hubble

http://wires.news.com.au/special/mm/030811-hubble.htm

:)

[Mike Niendorff]

7. We are the keys to our own future.

Personally, events like this inspire me. Greatly.

This is what we can accomplish when we simply will set ourselves to the task. We have the skills, we have the knowledge, we have the technology, we have such a wealth of astonishing potential when we put aside our differences and work together. And yet here most of us sit: divided, conquered, being played against each other, searching for someone to blame rather than someone to stand together with. Meanwhile, our masters get fat, we struggle to stay afloat each day, and every minute the staggering potential of six billion minds drifts away into the ether, unnoticed.

Events like this remind me that it doesn't have to be this way. The road to a better future is right here in front of all of us. One foot in front of the other is all it takes.


MDN

[oscar111]

8. Ending suffering inspires me, NOT the 'best of Hubble"

Ending poverty, disease, costs money that the space program is throwing into empty space.. to "inspire" a handful to do... do what? More wastefull launches, i suppose.

Lunacy.

Search you conscience, space fans.

i used to be a space fan, then like Buddha, i saw suffering. I changed.

[wuushew]

15. How about gutting the military first?

Government sponsored programs are a good way of employing well trained white-collar engineers and in the process strengthening the middle class. I doubt that a society bereft of government spending would if relying solely on the market would produce as many artists, engineers or teachers. The United States has never been altruistic nor aims to be. Real dents in poverty and disease can only be had if massive doses of socialism are implemented which up to this point has not been politically possible.

That being said the shuttle, space station and Bush's version of Mars plan are all huge wastes of money and should be scrapped pronto.

[oscar111]

17. wuu, post is unclear-- edit?

pls re write

sounds good, but all save the last sentence, is unclear to me.

seems to go off in different directions and self-contradict.

Yet i sense a powerful intellect is behind it.

[wuushew]

32. I view some government expenditures as legitimate

Given that we are a money driven society I think certain eras of human endeavor should be promoted by the government. By employing people that may not otherwise be utilized we redistribute wealth and at the same time gain material or scientific knowledge. Government medical research which is an excellent use of money provides employment while simultaneously alleviating human suffering. How best to fund what programs is partly a problem of efficient resource allocation and political reality.

Since it is blatantly clear that from the obscene amount we spend on prisons and military purchases the outlook for truly just social spending may never me met. LBJ sought to spend on both guns and butter. Vietnam not only massively increased inflation and debt but killed the Apollo program. NASA had plans for manned Mars missions and space stations that would follow after the moon program.

Space programs by themselves are not that wasteful as the only material you cannot recover is the mass of the object launched into space and the energy used. The salary paid to employees and the profits earned by contractors eventually circulate to other areas of the economy. The current era of greed and corruption are symptoms of inadequate corporate and personal taxation which allows wasteful concentration of wealth that would have otherwise have been reinvested in R&D or other economic activity.

While this Titan probe does not provide us with any immediate benefit, it lays the procedural and technology challenges out for future exploration of the outer-solar system. Many useful and valuable resources await us in the asteroid belt and beyond. Even discounting practical aims, human outposts other than the Earth should be viewed as a hedge against extinction should a sufficiently large meteor impact the Earth. Space exploration is very expensive and very risky. Much like the colonization of North America and later industries like power generation and civil aviation government incentives may be required before viable and competitive private activity ensues. Better that a government with unlimited power to tax and print money engage in risky projects than a equivalent private venture that may risk bankruptcy should its investment fail. The unlimited planning horizon for government programs means that projects can be undertaken without the belligerent demands of stockholders to see results in the relatively short-term.

These are my general views on space. I do not trust Bush to implement them and I would be willing to fore-go many, many non-essential expenditures simply due to the fact that the government is bordering on irreversible economic collapse.

[NNadir]

18. You don't happen to be mother Theresa reincarnated do you?

Actually, a modicum of experience in issues of poverty, disease, blah, blah, blah, blah let's one quickly understand that throwing money at these problems is a particularly disastrously poor way to proceed. It's usually espoused by those who are the least effective against eliminating the cause of disease and poverty, and those who want to get the most mileage and self aggrandizement out of its perpetuation. (Mother Theresa indeed comes to mind here - imagine preaching against birth control among the "poorest of the poor!")

The way to proceed against these issues is to eliminate ignorance, not to object to every inspiring human activity that doesn't have a holy beady eyed focus on ersatz interest in problems.

Even with the pure aesthetic beauty of humanity extending its vision, and recognizing its origins and its rarity, there is no better way to eliminate ignorance than to demonstrate how far the human eye and the human imagination can go.

It happens that the space program - at least among the educated as opposed to the holy - has given a us very intimate scientific understanding of our own planet and a respect for its fragility. Without the Soviet Venera missions, for instance, we have had much more difficulty understanding the nature of the Greenhouse effect, for instance, and without the various Mars missions, we would not have understood that it is possible for a planet to boil off its water. Without these understandings, on a grossly over-populated planet inhabited by horribly educated persons who hold the environment in contempt, we are surely doomed.

But, if you so damned concerned about poverty, may I suggest you sell your computer, get off this website, and donate the money to some myopic self serving church?

[Mike Niendorff]

21. Great. Let's get on it.

These are not mutually exclusive goals.

We have the technology, resources and money to address poverty. It can be done. Now. And the space program is NOT why it isn't being done.

The fact is, mass poverty serves the interests of organized capital. Always has, always will. And as long as that is the case, it will be maintained. It has absolutely nothing to do with space budgets and exploration and whatever else. It has to do with who profits from creating dispossession and exploiting poverty. Until that fundamental reality is addressed, the suffering you see will go on.


MDN

[freeplessinseattle]

42. Exactly. It's silly to say how amazing it is what humans can do when

basic needs are not being met. If humans can't even make sure that everyone is fed and has health care, it's not very impressive to do something cool just to do it. "wow, we could feed the world if we really wanted to, that's nice to know, but since we care more about the coolness factor we'll channel that energy and resources into something totally different and let people starve. It doesn't matter if we actually help humanity or not, all that matters is testing our own potential and patting ourselves on the back."

[Az]

12. Its not mankind that is nuts, its capitalism that is blind

Capitalism may be wonderful for creating an economic system that allows the people to prosper and keep them driven to do so. But it is absolutely incapable of taking a long term approach to issues. Which is why we so desperately need to control it if we wish to continue to use it. But unfortunately deregulation and free trade are the buzz words of the day.

[SHRED]

13. True

The short term gain oriented "monopolists" are running wild.

[baldguy]

19. There will ALWAYS be poor people.

There will always be conflict. There will always be humans suffering. It's a sad fact of life - but its true.

Should we stop dreaming because of it? Should we stop trying to learn about the universe we live in?

There is an OCEAN on Titan! That fact alone was worth the trip.

[oscar111]

22. Dems do not concede "always poor folks",

more on that , but first, about dreaming about space as you said...

--dream all you wish, just dont spend food-money on space-waste.
=================
TO END POVERTY
300 billion would end all US poverty.

bush's taxcuts were 350 billion. We could have ended poverty right there. A rollback now WOULD end poverty.
============
1 end poverty by grants {just discussed}
2 end poverty by jobs for all.. below
==================
Poverty is artificial result of the 14 million Job Shortage.

http://www.bls.gov/jlt

page shows only three millon openings for 17 million jobless and discouraged.

Another way to end poverty is jobs for all... share the work, WPA, co ops.

Either grants or jobs,... take your pick.

and sheltered workshops for the crips. Grants, still, for the sick.

Jobs for all

http://www.njfac.org

Clintons SOL reich, advises the site.. along with 2 Nobelists and Galbraith.

[baldguy]

35. $350 billion? I think you've added a couple zeroes there.

Cassini cost $3.3 billion. America spends more on gourmet dog food. Should we get rid of our dogs too?

In 2000, the US spent $382 billion on K-12 education. In 2004, $900 million for adult education programs, $1.431 billion for dislocated worker programs...

We DO spent money on education, poverty, feeding the poor, etc etc etc. We don't spend enough.

But we've got a LOT of money to spend. The Fed budget runs about $600 TRILLION. The largest portion of that is for public assistance programs. Where can we find the money to increase them? Not at NASA. Their entire budget in 2004 was $7.6 billion. We spend a pittance on the exploration of space.

Military budget. Look at this:



We spend almost as much as the rest of the world COMBINED! If you've got an axe to grind, don't look toward eliminating the quest for knowledge. Try and eliminate the quest for death.

[Taxloss]

23. These debates are interesting, but I should say this is a EUROPEAN probe

So not one dime of your tax money has been spent on it.

But you're still alowed to be proud that mankind has landed a vehicle on a rock further from Earth than ever before, if you want, just as I feel proud as a human of NASA's achievements.

I wonder how we'll all feel in 30 years when the Chinese are the first to land on Mars and the Indians are building a moonbase with Brazilian help.

[oscar111]

24. EU has poverty too: let chinese waste money, helps us compete in economics

in trade here.

I would feel just fine watching them waste money. Meanwhile, we are using Shuttle savings to retool a Chicago factory with new generation computers that China cant afford, because they spent on two hundred moonshots for their base. {yes, it takes a lot of "lifting" to bring up structures and food and water and people}

We surge ahead economically. Chinese grow weary of the folly and poverty, toss their leaders.

BTW, EU should not be wasting their tax money either. EU still has poverty , tho far less than here i read.

[Taxloss]

27. Well, there are different ways of measuring poverty.

If you take the respective governments' measurements, the UK has more poverty than the US. The big difference is that our level is falling steadily while yours is rising strongly.

The ESA is less linked to the military industrial complex than NASA, so that's less of a worry, but it is still a bit of a corporate get-rich-quick scheme. But I fall firmly into the this-is-inspiring camp, and at least the EU consists of (mostly; Italy is a notable exception) socially aware governments that are doing their best to tackle poverty as well as conquering the moons of Saturn.

[WI Independent]

26. IMO, space exploration is...

the only way to save our environment, and possibly the human species, in the long run. There's a lot of evidence we get hit by a large asteroid every few million years. We have no clue when the next one will hit. Movie plots in the last few years to the contrary, we do not currently have the technology to stop an impact nor could it be developed in a matter of days or even months.

If we get hit by something the size of a small mountain, we won't have clean air for hundreds of years or more... not that any of us would be around to notice.

Should we spend every available dollar on it? Of course not, but we shouldn't ignore it either. We should have short term AND long term goals.

[Taxloss]

28. Hear, hear. n/t

[baldguy]

36. Humanity's destiny is in space. America could lead the way.

oscar111 would like America to be like Portugal; we did some nice things once but 1000 yrs from now we'll be a backwater.

[poe]

38. the grass isn't always greener

we are already in space on a beautiful,lush orb. appreciate the redwoods, the hawk, the big sky, the blowing snow. the land is the source of all our strength and wisdom. we've stopped listening, smelling, appreciating the gifts we are given each day. we are actively engaged in technocide. the space age may look glossy and give promises but beware of steel gods.

[baldguy]

40. Appreciate the ocean, too.

Look at that coast, isn't it beautiful?

[newyawker99]

44. Hi WI Independent!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[WI Independent]

45. Hello to you too newyawker99...

Thanks for the welcome!

[immoderate]

34. There was plenty of poverty before there was a space program.

So I don't see a direct connection. I would hate to not have the Hubble images, and the knowledge they've given us about the universe.

OTOH, I can wait to send guys to Mars. We should improve our technology before we makes those trips.

--IMM

[poe]

37. NASA's days are numbered-the wax is melting

the amount of energy that goes into one flight into space is mind boggling. the amount of pollution involved is equally enormous. as everyone is aware the oil and natural gas not to mention the necessary minerals for all high tech gadgetry are running out rapidly.
air travel is also at the end of it's line and all the investment analysts know this.
interesting tidbit- an f-16 fighter jet uses more fuel in two hours flight than the average american uses in two years of driving. the US navy uses 16% of the world's diesel fuel.
we are so removed from our sensibilities due to our evisceration with the natural world. homo sapiens could be changed to homo hubris. recall the tale of Icarus.

[wuushew]

39. Potential energy sources lie in space

Helium-3 which exists on the moon is supposedly useful if we ever get fusion working. Also Mars has a greater percentage of the heavy hydrogen isotope deuterium.

You need not use booster rockets to achieve orbit. Air breathing vehicles or space elevators might be possible in the future.

[Codeblue]

41. Alright

These space debates get on my nerves. I fail to see how some people just can not understand the importance of space exploration. However, I think I feel a little differently about this than most space supporters.

I don't feel inspired by the exploration we have achieved because of the cooperation between many countries that has taken place because of it. I feel inspired just by the (Corny alert) vastness of the universe and the amazing things hidden in the recesses of deep space. I would feel quite lonely and uninspired without my knowledge of the stars. Much of the inspiration for my writings (which I have yet to finish) comes from space. It fills me with a feeling that I can not even begin to describe in words, because I don't even know exactly what it is.

All I can say is, without space, I would be truly depressed. The flaws of our own planet can be forgotten by looking out into the vast expanse of space. Most of the time, I can not stand to live in this time period, and long to be able to travel into the past, to a more suitable time for myself. The rest of the time, I hate even living on Earth when I realize that it isn't just this time period, it is the entirety of human existence that...well sucks. Space provides me with relief from Earthly concerns. Some people relive themselves through spiritual belief...my relief comes through space.

I do agree that a mooonbase is completely preposterous and an enormous waste of money, and sending people to Mars can wait. Robotic rovers are doing a fine job up there. But leave the space program be. Replacement of the shuttles should be a high priority for NASA so that we may continue manned exploration.

Sorry for the long post. Had to get some stuff off my chest.

[ReverendDeuce]

46. Replies like these make me embarassed to be here, honestly...

Only some of the replies.

This is one issue where I'm just going to have to disagree with most DU'ers. I *want* more money invested in NASA. I would like nothing more than to see the DOD and NASA budgets reversed.

By reading these posts I'd think that some of you are just as luddite and regressive as the Freepers.

These attitudes like "science is superfluous until we can eliminate all human suffering" are perfect examples. I would like nothing more than to make sure every human being has shelter, food, water, and dignity but we can't be slaves to that ideal.

Now, I have no doubt that if our priorities were in order, we'd have enough funding to go around. Kucinich had some very compelling budget ideas when he was running in regards to college for everyone, providing clean water around the globe, et cetera. I'm all for it but not if progress is hindered.

Then I see posts bitching about how much fuel and energy is used for these missions. Again, they suffer from the same short-sightedness. If we can get automobiles and most commercial shipping off of fossil fuels and petrochemicals, the impact of rocket launches, fighter jets, etc. will be dramatically lowered to a point where the environmental effect is absorbed.

And do we really think it will end there? Rocket fuel is not going to get us out of the solar system let along the next star system. There's a next step and, let's be honest, fission is not it.

Anyway... I'd rant on and on, but really... if my attitude is not liberal enough, then I guess it's not. I really would never sacrifice research and development for the purpose of sheer science and exploration. Never. This would be my top priority.

[DukeBlue]

47. Jetta TDI

Runs on b20. Waiting for summer to whip up a batch of b60.

Smells like popcorn..

[Deja Q]

48. To get us onto that rock required a variant of the same technology...

This Mars business is an utter joke as well. * knows the resources will be so comparatively low in 10 years that they'll nix the trip; assuming * was ever serious about it in the first place.

[HeeBGBz]

49. Yippee! Wasn't that fun?

Have we sent a probe to Uranus, yet? Coming soon...

[SmokingJacket]

50. If our priorities were in better order, we could do both.

Expanding our knowledge of the universe is worth while -- it's the natural result of human curiosity.

But damn, it makes me sick to see space probes taking pictures of more rocks when we can't even manage to stop millions of babies from dying of diarrhea every year.

And you're right: we don't need the internal combustion engine. It's hanging around because too many people are dependent on it for their continued wealth.

I'd have no objection to a modest, state-sponsored space program if we focused more on cleaning up our act at home.