the "moral values" crew is at it again: gang rapes continue

[stellanoir]

I had not heard of any of this before. Have I been living under a rock or has this information not been exposed at all ? More gang rapes of prisoners and an attack that killed 68 GI's in one day?
Has anyone else heard of this?

We're winning the hearts and minds again.

This apparently transpired late last month. . .

"At approximately 12:25pm on Saturday, resistance fighters waged an unprecedented assault on the Abu Ghraib prison camp south of Baghdad. The assault was sparked by a letter from a female prisoner named Fatima that fueled some Muslim fighters into action."

Excerpts from Fatima's letter. . .

"By God, we have not passed one night since we have been in prison without one of the apes and pigs jumping down upon us to rip our bodies apart with his overweening lust. And we are the ones who had guarded our virginity out of fear of God. Fear God! Kill us along with them! Destroy us along with them! Don’t leave us here to let them get pleasure from raping us! It will be an act to ennoble the Throne of Almighty God. Fear God regarding us! Leave their tanks and aircraft outside. Come at us here in the prison of Abu Ghurayb.I am your sister in God (Fatimah). They raped me on one day more than nine times. Can you comprehend? Imagine one of your sisters being raped. Why can’t you all imagine it, as I am your sister. With me are 13 girls, all unmarried. All have been raped before the eyes and ears of everyone. They won’t let us pray. They took our clothes and won’t let us get dressed. As I write this letter one of the girls has committed suicide. She was savagely raped. A soldier hit her on her chest and thigh after raping her. He subjected her to unbelievable torture. She beat her head against the wall of the cell until she died, for she couldn’t take any more, even though suicide is forbidden in Islam. But I excuse that girl. I have hope that God will forgive her, because He is the Most Merciful of all."

http://www.jihadunspun.com/index-side_internal.php?article=101233&list=/home.php&

"December 22, 2004

Fatima is dead.

"Fatima was killed in a rocket barrage at the US Abu Ghraib prison ... The barrage left four Iraqis dead, as well as the Iraqi woman prisoner known as Fatimah whose letter, smuggled out of the prison two weeks ago, sent shock waves around the Muslim world as it disclosed many horrid details of US forces gang raping female prisoners and regularly perpetrating other abuses against the prisoners in the ill-reputed facility. Friday’s barrage also severely wounded another 22-year old Iraqi woman. An Iraqi who works at the Abu Ghraib prison camp told Mafkarat al-Islam that more than 68 US troops were killed in the bombardment as that the rockets specifically struck their barracks. But just one night before the attack, the Americans had moved more than 500 Iraqi prisoners to the east side of the prison, resulting in the death of many of them."

More at

http://abutamam.blogspot.com/

Scroll down to a post from Monday,,January 10 and December 22nd for more details.

[qazplm]

1. dont you think

that thats a little bit too incredible to be believed?

68 troops at once? I really dont think so. I doubt that "gang raping" is going on either.

I understand that many of us doubt whether our media tells the whole truth, but seems to me our media isnt the only media that is prone or susceptible to propoganda.

[burythehatchet]

3. yes, tis far more appropriate to doubt that American troops

would commit atrocities like gang rape. Yes, we should be cautious about what we should believe from those spinmeisters at Al Jazeera.

sorry, that called for a serious dose of sarcasm.

[qazplm]

4. no how about

instead of simply believing anything bad and rejecting anything good you simply require that ALL sources verify what they are reporting and treating ALL sources as potentially biased.

Seems to me that you only think spinmeisters reside in the US.

So let's see who is being more reasonable, me who says trust neither side and force all to verify, or you who seems ready to take whatever is said thats negative as gospel and dont even question that maybe the over the top characterizations just might be propoganda?

68 dead in one day? do you SERIOUSLY think that information wouldnt get out? Give me a break. That's 68 families, and if they are all in one unit that is damn near an entire company of soldiers, definitely at least two platoons.

That would be the top story on every media outlet from here to the moon.

[qazplm]

5. by the way

where did it say Al Jazeera reported this as fact?

I saw that it was "smuggled out letter" from "Fatima".

Yeah, that's an unimpeachable source. No need to check those facts.

[AP]

7. Sy Hersh says that he has seen photos from that prison that are far

worse than anything that has been published yet.

What do yo think those pictures are of?

[qazplm]

8. well

I dont know, and neither do you.

So how about we, oh i dunno, wait until we see the pictures instead of speculating?

I mean seriously, how is that an unreasonable position to take?

I mean it's as if things only need to be sourced and checked and verified if they are positive or American media.

If they are negative or foreign media well then no need to have any skepticism, I mean after all, its only Americans who are dishonest, right?

The fact of the matter is you have two sides engaged in not just a firing battle but a propoganda battle. TWO sides, not just one.

[AP]

10. Your argument was that the statements were "incredible."

There are many good reasons to be skeptical of any bit of information that you receieve through hearsay. However, I'm not sure that this information might be "incredible" is a good reason.

Allegations of rape in this circumstance are not incredible.

[qazplm]

14. yes

but this is not merely allegations of rape.

For example, if the allegations were simply of sodomy with a broom handle I wouldnt call that "incredible" in the sense that I dont think thats something that couldnt very easily happen (unfortunately).

I DO think gang rapes are "incredible". and 68 soldiers dying in one attack?

I dont think incredible is the word I would use for that, shocking, heart stopping, news of the year? Those are all terms I might use. The loss of a third of that number dominated headlines for a week and the army couldnt keep it quiet for seconds, but yet somehow, the loss of 68 soldiers at once is being kept under wraps? Come on!

And so when something as clearly sensationalists and likely not true gets passed along in a story, then yes I find that viewing the rest of that same "story" with strong skepticism is a wise course of action.

[stellanoir]

17. I originally posted this because I wanted to know

if anyone else had heard of this. I've been reading riverbend

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com

for as long as she's been blogging (since 8/03). She is very credible. In her most recent post she linked to the blog (link at bottom of original post) that led me to Fatima's story. River was really thrilled to have learned that this guy was now blogging. She respects his writing a lot.

The "more than 68 dead Americans" quotation from the Iraqi guard did strike me as a bit odd. Just because it's not only a huge number from one attack but the "more than 68" just is both specific and vague.

If you're so doubtful then consider going to the links and seeing what else is there.

[qazplm]

18. it strikes me as more than

a bit odd...it strikes me as WAYYYYYYY odd.

It just didnt happen. I havent heard of anything like that. I havent even heard of ANYONE dying at Abu Gharib recently although certainly onsies and twosies sadly no longer get any attention, and yes I am currently serving in Iraq so I would have heard something of that size of that i have no doubt.

I am doubtful because I simply find the quotation unbelievable, much like if someone said that they were abducted by aliens.

Possible? sure, likely? very much no.

As far as the blogger being credible, that may well be true but that doesnt make the report credible. what you have is a story, on a blog, linked to by another blog that you find credible.

I mean in the legal world that would be hearsay within hearsay within hearsay.

[AP]

23. How would a prisoner or anyone know how many soldiers died?

I'm not ready to discredit the allegation of rape just because the victims or the insurgents weren't able to count body bags.

If you think gang rape is incredible (but you don't have a problem with believing that soldiers raped boys with broom handles in front of their parents) then I just think you need to so some research on the history of imperial agression. These are the common tools of imperial agression, and Sy Hersh has said that what people have seen only scratches the surface.

As an aside, I think you're rhetorical style is really interesting in this post. You want to discount the possiblity of women getting raped, but then you frame your argument for not believing it around the idea that if another part of the story were true, then we'd know about it because it would be such devestating news for the American family to hear that so many Americans have died.

It's interesting that you have this infinite compassion for the soldiers that is so important to you that you base your sense of what is true and what isn't true in terms of whether that sense of compassion was triggered. (Ie, since there was not outpouring over the grief of 68 soldiers dying, it didn't happen, and that means this woman is lying about rape.)

That's quite a selective instrument for perceiving "shock" and the "stopping of one's heart." By your logic, one could say that the rape of prisoners is so awful and the outpouring of emotion that is triggering attacks on Abu Graib is therefore proof that it happened. See, that logic can cut both ways, and it's illogical both ways.

And your argument is interesting because your other qualm with the story is that the reporting of it is surely propaganda. Yet you don't seem to use that same skepticism to bring you to the conclusion that perhaps the US media NOT reporting on an attack where Americans died at Abu Graib is also selectively reporting for the purpose of propaganda. Again the logic cuts both ways, and your own logic defeats your argument.

Like I said, there are good reasons to be skeptical about any piece of news coming out of Iraq. But your logic for explaining what you believe and dont' believe is very inconsistent. And I repeat, it is NOT incredible that women prisoners are being gang raped at Abu Graib.

Although it may be likely that the insurgents forge letters to raise passions against Americans -- I'm totally open to that possiblity, and given the claim of 68 deaths, I consider it a distinct possibility -- I think everything we do know as facts about Abu Graib, including Hersh's reporting, and the photos we've seen, and (most significantly, perhaps) the trial which concluded this past week, suggests that it's very likely (and not at all incredible) that women have been raped in that prison.

[qazplm]

28. what?

Try reading my "rhetorical style" without an agenda for a moment.

First of all, I didnt say I had "infinite compassion" for the soldiers, although BEING a soldier, and a human, ANY death is certainly worthy of compassion. What I did say is that it is almost impossible to hide something of such magnitude. It has nothing to do with my "compassion", it has to do with plain common sense.

One need only see how quickly the media reported on the Mosul attacks to see that an attack that kills over FIVE TIMES as many Americans in a single attack JUST might make the news.

Second of all, I find a single act of rape more likely than a group act of rape yes. As an attorney i find that often acts of misconduct of that nature are more likely single acts not groups. I also find that if such acts were happening in groups almost always those acts come to light, it's more likely the acts by a single criminal that dont come to light.

You make the stunningly poor argument that somehow the American media not reporting it is somehow propoganda and yet they didnt seem to have a problem reporting the Mosul deaths. Now why is that? And you do know that there are French, English, and other media here in Iraq as well, but I guess somehow THEY are all in on the propoganda as well?

Riiiight. EVERYONE save one website and two intrepid Iraqis, of which we only know the name of one, and their first name at that, is in on the propoganda but they have brought out the truth.

I have some swamp land, interested?

I "frame" my argument under the BASIC logical argument that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, but heck at this point I wouldnt mind just plain old proof, not a "letter fom Fatima" and an unnamed Iraqi guard reporting events that if true would be IMPOSSIBLE to hide from not only the American media but the international media as well. You dont think an attack that kills over FIVE dozen soldiers at once is going to send dozens more to the hospitals? You dont think media imbeds of ALL nationalities arent sitting at those hospitals just waiting for stuff like this to break?

I mean seriously, you dont even begin to be skeptical because if you were you would be questioning the logic of this as much as I am. It has nothing to do with "rhetorical style", "infinite compassion", or believing the media incapable of propoganda.

It has to do with common sense and logic...and believing in this story on the "evidence" provided wouldnt satisfy an editor at the National Enquirer.

[AP]

31. You seem to be using this story to say that it's impossible that

gang rape is happening at Abu Graib.

I'm saying that this letter may or may not be entirely or partly a fabrication or a mistake of fact, but I don't find it incredible that women prisoners would be gang raped at Abu Graib.

Of course, you may only be narrowly interested in the truth of this letter, but I do think the way you framed your argument (which I'm not going to repeat) is interesting.

Here's what you wrote:

1. dont you think that thats a little bit too incredible to be believed?
68 troops at once? I really dont think so. I doubt that "gang raping" is going on either. I understand that many of us doubt whether our media tells the whole truth, but seems to me our media isnt the only media that is prone or susceptible to propoganda.


For emphasis, I'll repeat: this letter does raise questions about propaganda and validity. But I still think you're making a huge leap -- the part that have bolded -- which is neither supported or verified by the letter.

You're not just saying that you don't believe THESE particular allegations of rape. You're saying that you don't believe ANY allegations of gang rape at Abu Graib.

Using your same argument about needing facts to prove your arguments, what facts are you basing that belief upon?

Using your own logic, you'd think that you'd at least have to say it's an open question, not yet proven true or false.

And here's my position: I think any honest commentator, judging from what we know, would definitley say that they're not comfortable that people aren't being raped.

[qazplm]

34. well the fact that you dont find it incredible

goes to your bias, not mine.

I find rape certainly plausible. I find gang rape less plausible because from experience misconduct occurs more in ones and twos than in groups, and that when misconduct occurs in groups it almost ALWAYS comes out because SOMEONE talks. They always do.

Not even always because they are somehow "good" or "just". Often it is simply because they dont like one of the other guys, or they brag, or they are stupid, or yes sometimes, like the kid who exposed abu gharib, because they are in fact good.

See I think the difference between you and me is I still allow for BOTH good and bad to be possibilities with roughly equal likelihoods while you seem to think that the bad is the default position.

again, that's your bias and thus I have no doubt you believe that I "framed" my argument.

[AP]

37. Sy Hersh says that boys were anally raped with broomsticks in

front of their parents -- that it's been documented.

Before I read that today, I didn't know that it happened. But based on what I'd read, I believed that it was possible.

That was almost definitely done by more than one person, but we didn't hear about it according to the mechanism you describe.

I'm at the same exact stage of belief when it comes to gang rape. I don't think it's incredible or impossible, and I wouldn't be surprised if it were true.

That doesn't have to do with believing that people are only capable of bad. It has to do with me taking in all the shards of evidence and history and logic and putting them altogether. To do otherwise -- to argue impossiblity, or that other people who are skeptical have base interepretations of human character -- that just seems so odd. What a strange argument!

[qazplm]

40. forgive me

but sy hersh is now the official litmus test of proof?

sy says it therefore it is true?

documented how? who is telling sy this? did he witness this? is he getting it from the parents? an iraqi? someone he knows? did that person witness it?

I mean come on, this is basic journalism/logic 101.

And remind where i used the word "impossible" to say that rapes DID not or COULD not have occurred?

good grief the amount of reworking you people are doing is utterly amazing.

Being anally raped with broomsticks could be done by one person, no? Maybe two.

Certainly has a different flavor to it than gang raping which has a much more brutal and envisions a larger group of people being involved.

I dont know that the broomsticks happened either, dont know that it didnt, I have REPEATEDLY said though that I find that less "incredible" or "unlikely" than gang raping. But the bottom line is, just because sy hersh says so dont make it so.

no one is infallible, no one is perfect, and i am going to need a little more than one guy said so to say ok it happened.

But even if THAT happened, to then make the jump and say, because a happened one time, from now on i will believe that b, c, and d happen whenever I hear about it, no matter what the source, no matter how different b or c are from a...

well, to use a word thats been over used here...that's incredible.

[AP]

55. Sy Hersh did "journalism 101" to tell us just about everything we

already know (none of which has been disputed), so I'm going to extend him the courtesy of deeming him reliable.

Who are "you people" by the way?

[seabeyond]

67. they have videos. congress watched them, they confirmed

and then they said they were too inflamatory they are not going to let the rest of us see. so they are holding on to video that gives you the factual proof you need only they deny us the ability to see them. would you suggest then to congress that they allow those tapes, in a whole to be aired for all of us to see, so we can be sure to own what we have done. proof positive seeing with our own eyes.

or are you one to suggest that we shouldnt see them because they will do more harm to our troops and their safety

and then use that denying us the evidence to say you have no evidence. it cant be proven

this makes no sense

[LibertyorDeath]

63. Get a grip

That's some scary shit.

You're dissing Sy Hersh...Please.... get a grip man...

THE GRAY ZONE
by SEYMOUR M. HERSH
How a secret Pentagon program came to Abu Ghraib.

http://newyorker.com/fact/content/?040524fa_fact

Torture and Rumors of Torture
http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/movable_type/2004_archives/000987.html

Norway reacts to torture of children

http://pub.tv2.no/nettavisen/english/article249696.ece

Systematic Pattern of Rape by US Forces

http://www.ccmep.org/2004_articles/iraq/060604_rape.htm

Testimony from Abu Ghraib prisoner who witnessed boy being raped (WaPo)
http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/iraq/abughraib/151108.pdf

http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444

http://www.ccmep.org/2004_articles/iraq/051204_focus_shifts_to_jail_abuse_of_wo.htm




Your not going to get incontrovertible proof so believe what you want to believe.

In the mean time the USA has killed 100,000 Iraqi civilians since this illegal invasion & occupation began.

[stellanoir]

9. "What do yo think those pictures are of?"

He has made reference to sodomy of young boys with broomsticks in front of one or both parents. He said he was haunted by the screams on the audiotape. He said it in a speech he gave last July. n/l

[AP]

11. Perhaps this is why Kerick was Bush's first man for Homeland Security

Kerick made his name partly by protecting the NYC police's right to use similar tactics.

And what the hell is it with the broomstick up the ass? Is there a manual of torture out there that these guys all use?

[qazplm]

12. and did he say

that the pics were that? is that "gang rape"?

Sounds to me like sodomy with a broomstick which aint no small thing but it its different from gang rape. also sounds to me like the words of one guy and quite frankly i dont believe ANYONE without proof.

I dont believe those saying everything is hunky dory, I dont believe those saying everything is going to hell.

The truth from my experience is almost always somewhere in the middle but regardless of that I expect ANYONE putting forth a position to prove it with competent evidence.

I mean I dont see how you could operate any other way.

Maybe it is the trial defense lawyer in me, but I am skeptical until I see proof, and I dont believe in speculating or just "going off someone's word". I am not allowed to talk about cases I am involved in but I know for a fact that one case in particular from Iraq has been spun completely differently than what occurred (which was still improper but not nearly to the level that is made out by some with their own agendas).

We weaken our credibiliy and our message when we sign on to ANY negative portrayals without demanding the same exacting standards we take the American media to task for NOT using in regards to this administration.

[Clark2008]

16. The rumors in the Middle East are this, as well

I have family over there (well, family by a former marriage who still stay in touch because I am the mother of their nephew/cousin) and they have been telling me long before Sy Hersch's statements that young boys were being repeatedly raped in American-run Iraqi prisons.

One never knows how much of this is truth or urban legend, but, given what we DO know about the torture at Abu Grhaib, it certainly seems plausible.

[qazplm]

20. again

rape certainly does sound plausible, although I still demand proof of ANY position, pro or con, for america or against america, I am just funny that way.

Gang rape however sounds less plausible.

Death of 68 "or more" Americans sounds not plausible and a whole lot more like propoganda to me.

Since the two are put together, seems to me the most likeliest answer is both are propoganda.

IF gang rapes are occurring, whomever this is is doing a disservice by mixing it in with claims that are clearly false as I can almost guarantee you that 68 "or more" soldiers have not died in a single attack at abu.

[Geek_Girl]

60. I know he said in the New Yorker that a Child was

raped. So I know rape has happened there and I don't know if this story is true or not but it is probable considering what has happened there in the past.

[Blind Tiresias]

62. I think its reasonable to believe

that male and female prisoners have been raped by US troops, especially in a prison as bad as Abu Gharib. Sy Hersch is probably right about that. I also think its reasonable to doubt a report in which 68 soldiers were killed in 1 attack, because such an attack could not be hidden from the western press.

[UL_Approved]

2. Ultimately, this prison time is useless

The situation should be focused on simple detainment and careful questioning.

Torture is useless. People who are dedicated enough to the insurgency will not give up information under duress. Innocents cannot give up any information, since they have no information. This exercise of sexual abuse must be caught somewhere on tape or in photos. This stuff should be documented somewhere, just like the photos that made it to 60 Minutes II.

Most of the combat troops would not see this stuff anyway. They are out in the field getting shot by the insurgents created by scandals like Abu Ghraib. The situation is poorly managed from our end, and it is amazing that ANYTHING is being done over there.

This is the full horror and fear of the doomsayers before the war. This is where the world ends. I just hope we can pick up the pieces...

[stellanoir]

6. "I just hope we can pick up the pieces..."

me too.

[seabeyond]

13. doubt our american men will rape? for real

obviously we have been shown our military get to see these people as animals. we have heard how our soldier talks of these people. i dont doubt it. i also havent thought about until reading this. but i dont doubt it. ia m pissed. we need to go after our congressman, our military.

we women. those are our sisters. and these are our sons raping. what is our part in htis

and all you men that want to deny a male soldier would do this,........whatevah

[qazplm]

15. denying that a male soldier would do this?

Uh no. ANY male in the world could be a potential rapist, so that would be a pretty crazy thing to assert, which is why i didnt.

What I DID say is that:

a: 68 soldiers do not die in one attack and not get reported to someone other than "Fatima".

b: Gang Rape implies several men raping one or more victims at once, quite a different and more incredulous scenario than a single rape by an American servicemember.

c: When b is combing with the hugely unlikely a, it makes b all the more unlikely

I mean seriously, you see someone named "Fatima" write something and you just go, ok must be true? You dont question it even a little bit? I mean seriously, I dont get it. Explain to me why someone Arab media and Arabs are somehow immune to putting out propoganda or lies.

Explain to me how losing a dozen soldiers in a bombing in Tikrit is reported nearly instantaneously in Mosul but losing over 5 dozen only somehow leaks out thanks to the intrepid reporting of "Fatima".

[stellanoir]

19. Fatima didn't report it.

The story is that Fatima wrote a letter that was smuggled out of Abu Ghraib which spoke of the young females being sexually abused repeatedly in front of others. She allegedly inspired an attack on the prison where some Iraqi guard said "more than 68" Americans died. Fatima supposedly died in the attack. So she probably won't be reporting anything soon.

One method of verification is to inquire as to whether information has been documented in more than one place. That's why I intially said, has anyone else heard about this?

[qazplm]

22. so then Fatima DID report it

SHE was the one, assuming she ever existed, who wrote the letter and "witnesses" the alleged gang rapes.

But you are partially right in that the guard is the second "reporter" in that, whomever he is, if he exists, reports the alleged attack that apparently no one else got wind of even considering how large of an explosion that must of been, the hubbub that would have been caused by transporting 68 dead American soldiers (or more) back home, and the possibly hundreds more soldiers who must have injured in such an attack.

Come on guys...it's Prop-o-gan-da.

Very clearly.

We do ourselves a disservice to grant credibility to these kind of stories so quickly. There is plenty of easily verifiable horror and wrongs going on that we are not required to jump so easily onto these obvious (and IMO poor) attempts at propoganda.

[seabeyond]

24. now that i am past the emotional of it

this feels like a repeat. if memory serves there was a similar about the time the torture reports came out. this story sounds famaliar

[AP]

35. Propaganda or not, upon what are you basing the conclusion

that there are NO gang rapes at Abu Graib.

I'm not asking you to prove a negative. But you do say that you don't beleive that any are happening at all, and I'm just wondering what you're basing that upon?

[qazplm]

38. really, y ou have to learn to read

Please point out where i said none are happening at all.

I will wait, go ahead.


What, couldnt find it? Maybe that is because what I have said, repeatedly is that:

a. gang rape is something that occurs less than singular rape from my experience
b. I think it much less likely that gang rape would go uncovered given the myriad of reasons that one member of the conspiracy either talks or gives up information.
c. I do not believe THAT particular story or ANY story until SOME credible evidence is presented, and when you add into a story an argument that CLEARLY is on the level of aliens landing on the white house (68+ dead at once) then I dont find that credible at all.

i dont know WHAT is going on every second at abu gharib. Neither do you. could be gang rape, could be a few single rapes, could be sodomy, could be no rape. But on a continuum I put gang rape as the LEAST likely of the four.

Now please, discontinue saying I said things I never said.

[AP]

45. Quoting you:

- I doubt that "gang raping" is going on either.

- I DO think gang rapes are "incredible".


That's the only thing I'm addressing here. I'll even concede the letter is just propaganda.

[qazplm]

50. huh?

Please take a moment to look up the definition of the word "doubt" in the dictionary.

I'll summarize, it basically means I find it unlikely NOT impossible.

I have explained my use of the word incredible in a similiar context as well.

Again, I have no clue what you are addressing. You apparently seem to think that unless i concede that gang rapes are likely or are probably happening that I am saying that they are impossible.

Well sorry, I concede no such thing. I concede that they could be happening, its possible, but I find it to be something that is likely a relatively rare event, and an even more unlikely event to keep hidden simply because I am a defense attorney and I KNOW:

a. how not smart most criminals of this type are
b. how often group misconduct gets reported by someone sooner or later
c. that believe it or not, military prosecutors actually do go after these kind of cases

So, for my last post, let's sum up.

a. the letter is propoganda
b. i do not believe THAT alleged incident of gang rape occurred
c. it is POSSIBLE that other gang rapes have occurred, but from my experience it is a rare occurrence, and unlikely something that goes hidden for very long. I find that singular incidents of brutality like sodomizing with a pole tend to have a better chance of being hidden, fewer witnesses. Put another way, abu gharib wasnt found out by intrepid reporting or women named Fatima...it was found out by one Specialist who saw what happened and reported it.

[AP]

56. "often group misconduct gets reported by someone sooner or later"

I agree with that. And I'm keeping the door open to the possiblity that we haven't arrived at "later" yet.

[seabeyond]

58. how many gang rapes happening regularly

how many do you hear reported. i dont think we can conclude gang rape gets out to the media, either in this country or in those prisons

so i think i will disagree with this assumption

[seabeyond]

21. silly and literally stupid me

i mean stupid me. and i am a bright person. but man,..........this is hard for me. last night laying in bed talking to husband i told him, i wish i could be proud of our military again. i look at our soldiers in tears and have such empathy. i listen to the hardships they are in and am in rage with bushco. but for whatever reason even after the torture pictures, i just see america as a better person. i allowed my mind, (without knowing), to say, we resolved, i guess? i didnt get all the way to the 68 soldiers. i became angry in the reading of our males raping women, i became angry and in my gut, of course they are doing that. why wouldnt i think that, know that. of course they are. and i became outraged.

story true or not, i dont know. who is to know. the flash i received in thought, which is no proof at all, the feel i got out of this message though, makes me sick, and disgusted once again and all over

as i say, willingly and admittedly, stupid me. to think we are better than this

[qazplm]

25. I dont know if

"we are better than this"

Heck for all I know there is some mass successful conspiracy that has covered things up and everthing in that posting is true.

But:

a: I require proof to believe it
b: I especially require proof when the claims made are so incredible

It has nothing to do with whether we are capable or not. Every culture, every nation, every group of people, ours included is capable of unspeakable horrors.

We are humans after all, we have great capacity for good, and equally great capacity for evil. Either capacity doesnt really care about nationality.

[seabeyond]

26. you are right of course

and i am merely disgusted, that is all

[AP]

27. Would that the media were run like a trial. But it isn't.

So we have to pull together a lot of disparate evidence that sometimes wouldn't be admissable in a court of law and we have to form our opinions around what we can discovere from looking at all those shards.

And as far as the bullshit detector goes, I think it's fine to wonder whether the letter is propaganda. But I just don't know why it's time to shift to total denial stage when it comes to wondering whether women are being gang raped in those prisons.

[qazplm]

29. when you have a story

and the one half of the story says, aliens land on white house lawn...explain to me why you should give any credence to the second half of the story?

[AP]

30. When you have a story about rape...

...why do you say given all we know it would be incredible if gang rape were happening at Abu Graib because the media hasn't reported that 68 soldiers were killed by a mortar attack?

[qazplm]

32. you've read this entire thread

and you STILL havent figured out why I am saying that?

I mean seriously, how much clearer can I make my point?

It is damn near impossible that NO media has reported the 68+ soldiers were killed in a single attack.

It is damn near impossible that NO media has reported the even more soldiers who would have had to have been injured in such an attack.

Given the way housing is set up, it damn near impossible for 68 soldiers to even BE killed in a single attack. ESPECIALLY by a mortar attack. They would have had to be all standing conveniently huddled into one spot, and the mortar would have STILL had to have been bigger than any mortar ever shot. Mortars are not powerful enough to take out two platoons of soldiers in one shot.

Last time I check "the media" isnt one entity, fine the American media is totally in the pocket of Bush, let's accept your obvious premise there for the sake of this argument, then why wouldnt ANY of the foreign media report it? Do you realize how many foreign reporters are over here??? Are they ALL in on it?? Do you realize what a media coup it would be to report on such an event?

Therefore, since that was one of the two main parts of the story reported above, and since it is roughly equivalent for the reasons I stated, for about the fifth time now, above, to aliens landing on the white house, then yes ANY other part of that story is very likely equally unbelievable.

If they said "aliens kills 68 americans in shocking attack oh and also there was gang rapes going at abu" you are telling me you would believe the latter?

[AP]

33. I don't think you get my point. So we're even.

[qazplm]

36. i dont think you have a point

other than being biased to the point of not even questioning something since it is negative.

I highly doubt you would be this believing if this were a story that was positive, you would think it propoganda (and hey guess what, sometimes, it IS and I would agree with you).

I'm over here, and I tell you that MY experience is such that gang rape IS a more unlikely occurrence than singular rape, ESPECIALLY to not eventually be uncovered, but you apparently would rather worry about my "rhetorical framework" than my experience or the logical arguments that I am making.


But I agree, I think further discussion is a waste of time.

[AP]

39. I can tell you don't think I have a point.

That's perfectly clear.

Now you're labelling me as "biased."

Whatever.

From the beginning I've said that I question this letter. That's not the issue. The issue is that I question your conclusion that gang rape at Abu Graib is practically an impossibility.

[qazplm]

43. reading is fundamental

somehow the words "unlikely" and "incredible" have turned into "impossibility".

Nice trick, can you change a wand into a dove?

I specifically used the practical impossibility argument in reference to the 68 soldiers dying, NOT the gang rape, and you know it.

You are either at this point purposefully not reading what I am writing or English is not your first language.

And there is nothing "biased" about not thinking you have a point.

[AP]

46. I think I was influenced by your frequent use of the word in post 30

[qazplm]

48. it was post 32 actually

and I used it three times.

EACH time in reference to 68 troops dying at once.

If that was enough to influence you...well, I will be generous and state that you arent trying very hard to read my posts.

[AP]

57. Incidentally, notice that the the allegations are different in the

two statements. The alleged victim merely claims knowledge of a person being raped nine times in one day. That could be nine separate rates occurring one on one.

The guard laters referst to a gang rape.

Whether the guard is trying to define nine one on one's as a gang rape or he is referring to a separet incident, we don't know.

In any event, it's your incredulity over the allegations to which I'm referring. Later you seem to say that you wouldn't have a problem (I'm inferring) with the allegation that she was raped nine separate times in one day, so long as they were one-on-one rapes.

Well, if you don't have a sense of incredulity over that allegation, then I don't have a problem with your post.

[Ignis]

66. Just to be a Nosey Parker...

I have to butt in here for a moment and question your heavily sarcastic and accusatory tone, qazplm.

What do you hope to gain by broadsiding AP with such rhetoric as "reading is fundamental," "English is not your first language," "you people," "really, you have to learn to read," etc.

I don't see anything in AP's posts in this thread that warrants such an acerbic reply. Have I missed something?

Thanks in advance for the info.

[seabeyond]

41. you know what, f* the 68 soldier part

we know our military doesnt give a shit about these human beings. our military may not be better than that, obviously they arent. bet i am. and i do have a voice. and there are millions of women in this country with a voice. and i betcha, having a husband being one, millions of males in this country with a voice

our administration encouraged, allowed torture and rape. and now these white males are standing up out loud saying to me, we can do what we f* want, and raping of woman is just part of the play. leave me alone and let me do

well, i dont want to let our chickenshit white male use the wolrd as a perverted playground

so i chose to stand.

boxer, when you talk to condi,..........wy are women still being raped. all over the f*in place, including our daughters our u.s. american daughters serving this country.

enough. structure the place and elinimate now,.........get the women in congress to organize and demand

and we back em. that at least is a start to humanity. this is a valid friggin bitch. us women have fights and battles we have to get on. hey, lol lol and at least we have leaders that have actually shed a tear in public. lets get on it

and the blacks, yawl.......yawl have a crowd speaking to/for you. you all have some stand up courageous people.

not all is loss. lets take down this arrogant, digusting, stupid man

[seabeyond]

42. i have a dream........

This will be the day when all of God's children will be able to sing with a new meaning, "My country, 'tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing. Land where my fathers died, land of the pilgrim's pride, from every mountainside, let freedom ring." And if America is to be a great nation, this must become true. So let freedom ring from the prodigious hilltops of New Hampshire. Let freedom ring from the mighty mountains of New York. Let freedom ring from the heightening Alleghenies of Pennsylvania! Let freedom ring from the snowcapped Rockies of Colorado! Let freedom ring from the curvaceous peaks of California! But not only that; let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia! Let freedom ring from Lookout Mountain of Tennessee! Let freedom ring from every hill and every molehill of Mississippi. From every mountainside, let freedom ring.

When we let freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual, "Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty, we are free at last!"

[seabeyond]

44. so you all go on about this, i see email campaign

to all my women across the country,........florida, my gay guy in sandiego, thru out texas, midwest and cape cod. it is time women step up. surely my conservative friends that did the really stupid and voted bush cause of religion..........surely they can get behind me in the simple rape of woman. and those intellectual lawyer dems that dismiss me. surely you can take the time, from your country club lunches and trips around the world.

thank you for this revelation

[qazplm]

47. yes i give up you are right

i am part of the military but I "dont give a shit about these human beings".

You got me. Kudos.

Do you wanna generalize and stereotype anymore or are you done for the day? Something i find awful ironic since you posted Dr. King's speech immediately following this post.

[seabeyond]

51. you dont know me, dont make assumptions

you dont know how i love, how capable i am. you dont know i can love the stupidest of us, and that includes myself. you dont know how i can love all of who you are, even the ugliest

i have had it with people telling me, how incapable i am.

you think you have me all wrapped up and tied with a little bow. i guarentee, as you make assumptions, you will be wrong each and everytime

why i never even bother telling others who they are. all i can talk about is myself,

what a fool i would be, lol lol lol

anyway. i see a direction to go, in honesty, and the many in the military that will be able to embrace this. there will be those soldiers that are disgusted by what is going on in military, dont you think. after all these are boys, that were raised in families. with moms and dad and love ect. i am a mom. i do this. i believe the majority did vote for kerry. that is the feel i have in being around those that supposedly supports bush. i think many quietly really wanted kerry to win. they mouth the right words, but after bush won, all the many around me. texans. in the panhandle, honest conservatives were a bit disguested we didnt win. the first couple days/weeks they too were num at realization 4 more years. that was my men, my people around me.

dont assume. this is never for me about making anyone less, .....especially our soldiers. i can not blame them more than anyone, and see exactly what they are doing. bush created this for them. and many others. and we allowed. i see and know

i am for the troops and taking care of them. and that means knowing the ugliest of what is going on. not denying hiding from it

really dont assume here.

[seabeyond]

52. so do tell

are you in the military now
did you go to iraq
how old are you, how long have you been gone, what is your experience
i am capable of listening. i do it a lot. i would appreciate your perspective. your insight. your experience.

[seabeyond]

53. i have people in my life with family military, that are being hurt

and are afraid. i love these people. and i sit with them in their pain and fear

[seabeyond]

54. here is something fun: the four agreements, by ruiz

an easy read, an afternoon

The Toltec Nagual (Shaman) don Miguel Ruiz offers his apprentices these four simple yet profound agreements as important tools on the path to personal freedom. Anyone can use these wonderful tools to break their self-limiting beliefs and agreements from the past and transform their lives into a new experience of freedom, true happiness, and love. These new agreements have the potential to help you move your attention from wha8t the world thinks you "should" do or be to what you know is right for you, reclaim scattered personal energy and power, and open up to a deeper intimacy in personal relationships.

Be Impeccable with your word. Our words, our thoughts, and our feelings all contribute to the creation of our reality. Our word is a two-edged sword, it can create or it can destroy. To be impeccable is to create with conscious awareness and love. The human mind is fertile ground for the seeds that are our word. Plant the seeds of love, not fear. Judging, blaming, shaming, and especially gossiping create poison in ourselves and others. This agreement alone is enough to break all of our old agreements and change the dream of our life.

Don't Take Anything Personally. Other people's reactions and opinions are simply other people's reactions and opinions. They are having their own experience and none of it has anything to do with you—it does not make you wrong, guilty, bad, unworthy, famous, loveable, or important. You only take them personally when you agree with their poison. If you are "triggered" by someone or they "push your buttons," they have touched a wounded place in you. Become aware of the emotional wound they have exposed for you, be grateful for their help, and take responsibility for your healing of your wound.

Don't Make Assumptions. Our minds have the need to "know." When we don't know, we make assumptions--they make us feel safer than not knowing. To imagine that you know what someone else is thinking is an assumption. To imagine that you can know or control the future or another person's actions is an assumption. Expectations are assumptions. In making assumptions, we create our reality without respect for another's truth or experience. To avoid assumptions, ask questions. It takes courage to trust the present moment, to allow other people to be exactly who they are, and to let life unfold according to its own plan . . . and it avoids a great deal of suffering

Always Do Your Best. Your best changes from moment to moment, sick or well, tired or rested. Remember that you are an imperfect human being. We can extend to ourselves and to others compassion for our human-ness and reverence for our divinity. There is no value to judging yourself for "failing"--and no truth to it either. When you are not impeccable, when you take something personally, or make an assumption, you are still doing your best, and you are still a beloved child of Spirit. Agree to always do your best, with love and acceptance for the imperfect divine human that you are.

[poe]

49. abu ghraib is a cakewalk compared to....

what the carnage the US techno-warriors have created in fallujah. compared to the deeds of battalion 316 in honduras which were overseen by negroponte who will be overseeing the US embassy in iraq. compared to the deprivations suffered by the iraqi children for 13 years and counting overseen by dem. and rep. administrations. the bloodletting will only be stopped by sustained civil disobedience in the streets of the plastic racist nation- McAmeriWalMartika.

[raysr]

59. And the American people

put their seal of approval on all of it by re-electing the BUSH-BASTARD!

[LibertyorDeath]

61. Thank you for your post.

[dollydew]

64. moral values

For those who don't believe "our military would do this" let me clue you. AMERICAN ACTIVE DUTY WOMEN HAVE BEEN GANG RAPED BY THEIR FELLOW MALE GIs. Rape, whether gang rape or otherwise, is not as uncommon in the US military as most Americans would like to believe. I'm not saying it happened in this case. I don't know. But to say it's "unbelievable" is to be extremely naive. Speaking from personal experience.

[seabeyond]

65. lets see what boxer does tues? i believe

i guess condi is going to have to sit in front of senate. boxer has a petition she is sending around

i support your position