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President Kerry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 02:45 PM
Original message
So I went to lurk on FR
and reading 90% of their posts makes me ill. A rare one that isn't outrageously racist, homophobic, or ethnocentric is like a breath of fresh air. I refuse to believe we've got millions of serious fuck-ups like that.

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Goldeneye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. I was just over there last night.
Edited on Sun Jan-16-05 02:58 PM by Goldeneye
Its hard not to just start ranting about some of the posts. The way they were going on about the celebrity fundraiser for tsunami victims, you would think helping others was a bad thing.


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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Many of them DO believe that helping foreigners or
those of a different religion is a bad thing. In fact, some of them believe that helping ANYONE who is poor is a bad thing. They believe in "survival of the fittest," when themselves being the fittest and everyone they don't like -- the vast majority of humanity --belonging to a lower rung on the evolutionary ladder and better left to die. After all, it saves the cost of killing them.
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dannynyc Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
30. One rare occasion when they fall and need help . . .
it is interested to watch how the rest of the "fittest" run the other way. I vaguely remember a case of a Wall Street stock broker who I thought fell into the "survival of the fittest" category - when he stumbled and got in some legal problems, all his "friends" ran the other way and let him sink.

In the same vein it was interesting to listen to Nancy Reagan support (presumably government financed) stem cell research, after Ronnie worked so hard to get rid of so many government programs.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Yeah, there's a catch in that freeper "survival of the fittest" paradise
If you're not showing signs of robust survival, you're obviously NOT the fittest and don't deserve any help. There is no such thing as friendship, let alone love. That's for weaklings! Everything is measured in power levels, and nothing else is valued. The amazing thing is that so many of them say that they are devoted followers of Jesus.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. They are obnoxious and probably sick, but a minority
They are concentrated on FR, and no doubt they egg each other on to be even more extreme than they would be in their "real" lives (for those that actually have them). It's a sick venting forum. It attracts people who like sick venting. They are very far from the majority, but they are going to be present in any society and more prominent in the sick, divisive, hateful atmosphere of the Bush admin. The important thing is to roll back the present influence of the sick, hateful mindset represented by the FR creatures -- a sort of infectious psychosis -- in our society. It's done far too much damage and will never stop on its own.

I found some better comprehension of this after reading Paul Levy's insightful psychological study, "ANALYSIS: The Madness of George W. Bush: A Reflection of Our Collective Psychosis --Bush’s sickness is our own." It is here:
http://baltimorechronicle.com/011305PaulLevy.html
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ChairOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. DUers say that over and over again......
... I suppose it functions as a narcotic, or religion: saying they're a minority makes it easier to get thru the day...

Meanwhile, back in reality-land, they're taking over more and more of our government (about 2/3 now, and counting). They've got the media. They're getting creationism taught in school. They're gonna shoot themselves in their own feet by getting rid of SS. Tort reform is about to happen. Abortion rights are set to all but disappear. They're looking for a repeal of the born-in-the-US-you're-a-citizen amendment.

And that's just the beginning.

But thank god THEY'RE ONLY A MINORITY.

Sheesh.

Where's Neville Chamberlain when you need him?
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. They ARE a minority, but they are EXTREMELY DANGEROUS
The Paul Levy article I linked to explains how this can work, it can be like the spreading of an infectious disease. It's spread from people like the sickos at FR and can become an epidemic.

The fact that "only" a minority of Americans are as hateful and sick as those FR posters doesn't matter if government policy decisions continue to be made along the same lines they favor. They may be over the top in what they say, but what's important is that they are only the most visible expression of the rotten disease that is destroying this country.

And now it looks like Bush plans to invade Iran...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2959361
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ChairOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Not to take away the narcotic or anything but......
... there's only two ways it can be:

(1) the infection *spreads*, in which case freepers *can* get power, ad they are also a majorty.

(2) the infection *doesn't* spread, in which case freepers are a minority, but neither can they get power.

In other words, "infectious", and "spread" don't jibe with "minority".

I agree with (1), btw. But whichever you prefer, "spread" and "minority", as you've been using them, don't go together.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. I'll go with #1
I do think the FR posters are even more sick than the ones in power (who will tend to have some vestige of practicality) for the most part, but the basics of what they want are quite similar to the goals of the B* admin. So as I see it, the freepers are a sign of the worst excesses of the infection, but they can assist in spreading it. I don't think the majority in this country are infected -- yet. But with all three branches of government in controlled by the cartel and Bush now apparently poised to invade Iran--not to mention the stolen elections -- the exact numbers are becoming moot.

The apartheid government of South Africa wasn't a majority either.
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ChairOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Ignoring the "either" part,, since that's what's under debate....
... Sure, the apartheid wasn't a majority. But of course the history of their taking and holding of power is massively different than the freepers'. So I don't see that there's much of an analogy between the two cases...

Again: more people voted for gdub than voted for Kerry. More people vote for republican Congressmen than Democratic. More people vote for republican governors than Democratic. One side has the majority, the other, the minority.

And it's getting worse. We need to fix the people - improvement in the politicians will naturally follow this. It's just the opposite of the repbublican tactic in fact. Since the 60s, they *worsened* the people, and the politicians got worse as a result. We need to get things swinging the other way. Fix the godawful majority.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. I don't think the majority of Repub voters are like the freepers
Most of them really don't realize what the hell is going on and are taken in by the GOP Kool Aid. They don't want to believe that the reality of things is so terrible and so are closing their eyes to stay in their preferred dream version of reality. The freepers are pure poison, and I do think they are currently a minority in the extremity of their sick hate. The rest of the Repubs have so far voted against their own interests again and again despite what would seem overwhelming evidence of the hugeness of this mistake. They are willfully blind, but for the most part, I believe, not full of hate like the freepers. But as fear and violence escalate, I fear that the freeper solution of universal hate will gain more prevalence.
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ChairOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Then that's where we differ....
And I think that as long as people - especially DUers - think along the lines of your last subject line, it's just gonna get worse and worse.

Moreover, which of us is right is to a certain degree irrelevant. In terms of the how-do-we-deal-with-the-problem, I think it's FAR better to overestimate the threat, than to underestimate it...
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. I agree that it's better to overestimate the threat.
I agree with you: Moreover, which of us is right is to a certain degree irrelevant. In terms of the how-do-we-deal-with-the-problem, I think it's FAR better to overestimate the threat, than to underestimate it...
Yeah, I'm with you on that. We are in an uphill fight and can't stop because the stakes are so high

I'm not basing my opinions on careful research of national attitudes among voters, so I can't claim any evidential basis other than personal experience with many Repub voters I know and know of. Most are basically decent people who simply refuse to face reality and persist in thinking B* is a nice guy and a great leader who will protect the country from the horrible terra-ists. They trust what they read in the papers and see on TV, can't believe they're being lied to, and are dead-set against the suggestion that the election might have been tainted. "After all, this is still America!" is commonly heard. None of them would dream of posting their political opinions on an internet board and, if anything, just wish politics and the necessity of making a scary choice would go away. That means that while they may not be as actively poisonous as the freepers, their willful blindness has made them just as disastrously supportive of the B* policies that are driving this country to ruin.

"Decent" or not, all these Repub voters I know about are in effect freeper ENABLERS. They might as well BE freepers unless they can somehow be forced to face reality. So far, nothing has accomplished that, so I have to conclude that they may be "decent" but they are not quite sane.
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President Kerry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. great analysis. Very true, IMHO
The question is how many virulent FR types there are in this country. I believe no more than 10% of * voters. That makes it about 6 million. Still a scary number.

What's scary is that conservatives don't stop to think what the effect of any change or progressive movement would be. They are interested in "conserving" culture (read, middle ages), valuing the dollar over all else (the environment, peace, etc), and utter ethnocentrism (the Americans know what's best for the whole world).

THAT smacks of fascism to me (that and the fact that we're on course to meet every on of the twelve signs of fascism:

12 Warning Signs of Fascism

1. Exuberant nationalism

Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic images, slogans and symbols - National flags are seen everywhere in public display. Territorial aggression is explained to be mere destiny -- an unbidden greatness thrust upon the nation by history.

It is this burden of unique responsibility that now raises the fascist state above all previous constraint, no longer bound by international obligations, treaties or law.


2. Enemies Identified

This national cause is identified as unity against enemies - The people are rallied around a unifying patriotism directed against some common threat: communists, liberals, a racial, ethnic or religious minority, intellectuals, homosexuals, terrorists, etc.

The state's message is sometimes couched in an easily recognized religious theme. Amazingly, this language is used even when the full context of the teaching shows the meaning to be diametrically opposed. Any dissent is "siding with the enemy", and therefore treasonous.


3. Rights Disappear

Disdain for human and political rights - Fascist regimes foster an artificial climate of fear by intentionally amplifying stress and anxiety. Citizens naturally feel a strong need for security and are easily persuaded to ignore abuses in the name of safety. The few still willing to question are met with bullying and smear campaigns of intimidation.

Legislative bodies, if still in existence at all, are cowed into rubber-stamp submission with occasional ceremonial opposition. The judiciary tends to become activist in support of state views. The public often looks away, or even enthusiastically approves as rights are stripped away.

The concept of the individual inevitably yields ground, exchanged for the promised safety of the all-powerful state.


4. Secrecy Demanded

Obsession with secrecy and national security - The workings of government become increasingly hidden. Questioning of authority is discouraged at all levels of society. From office talk at the water cooler up through the entire apparatus of rule, guarded speech and secrecy become ends in themselves.

Troubling questions are muted and entire areas of scrutiny are placed out of bounds by simply invoking "national security".


5. Military Glorified

Supremacy of the military - The military establishment receives a disproportionate share of government resources, even as pressing domestic needs are neglected. Individual soldiers and military culture are glamorized and made constantly visible.

This provides both an object for public glorification, as well as sharp warning to possibly restless citizens that the power of the state stands close at hand, ready to use its great potential for violence.


6. Corporations Shielded

Corporate power is protected - Typically, a segment of the business elite plays a major role in bringing fascists to national leadership, often from an unsavory obscurity. This marriage of big money and raw violence is often considered by historians to be the hallmark and backbone of fascism.

As these business-government-military interests meld, the significant threat of organized labor is clearly recognized. Labor unions and their support organizations are either co-opted successfully or ruthlessly suppressed and eliminated as soon as possible.


7. Corruption Unchecked

Rampant cronyism and corruption - Fascist states maintain power through this relatively small group of associates, mutually appointing each other to interlocking and rotating positions in government, business and the military.

With this degree of control, they make full use of both official secrecy and the ready threat of state violence to insulate themselves from any meaningful criticism. They are not accountable and are shielded from scrutiny in a way unthinkable in a democratic society.


8. Media Controlled

Controlled mass media - Sometimes the media are controlled directly by clumsy government functionaries. At other times, sympathetic corporate media insiders shape the themes indirectly, and therefor more skillfully. Image regularly trumps content as the "news" is presented breathlessly and with flashy stage effects.

A practiced formula of tenacious repetition brings even the most absurd lie into acceptance over time. By design, the very language itself and the coloration employed will push alternate views "out of the mainstream".

The terms of any remaining debate are narrowly defined to the state's advantage, making it easy to marginalize a truly differing perspective. Censorship and "self-censorship", especially in wartime, is common.


9. Rampant Sexism

Rampant sexism - Governments of fascist states tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Traditional gender roles are made even more rigid and exaggerated. Condemnation of abortion and a virulent homophobia are commonly built into broad policy.


10. Intellectual Bullying

Disdain for intellectuals - Fascist society tends to create an environment of extreme hostility to critical thought in general, and to academics in particular.

Ideologically driven "science" is elevated and lavishly funded, while any expression not in line with the state view is at first ignored, then challenged, then ridiculed and finally stamped out.

It is not uncommon for academics to be pressured to attack the work of their insufficiently patriotic peers. Writings are censored; teachers are fired and arrested. Free artistic expression in new works is openly attacked, and existing works deemed unpatriotic are often publicly destroyed.


11. Militarized Police

Obsession with crime and punishment - Fascist society is often willing to overlook police abuses and forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. Long jail sentences for clearly political offenses, torture and then assassination are at first uncomfortably tolerated, and then start to pile up to become the norm.

Often a national police force is given virtually unlimited power to snoop through the civilian population. Networks of surveillance and informers are employed, both for actual intelligence gathering and also as a means to keep neighbors and co-workers isolated and mistrustful of each other.


12. Elections Stolen

Fraudulent elections - In the disordered time as fascists are rising to power, the electoral arena becomes increasingly confusing, corrupted, and manipulated.

There is rising public cynicism and distrust over what are widely believed to be phony elections manipulated by moneyed influence, obvious media bias, smear campaigns, ballot tampering, judicial interference, intimidation, or outright assassination of potential opposition. Fascists in power have been known to use this disorder as the rationale to delay elections indefinitely.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-17-05 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Excellent analysis. Here's an article on American fascism
Has your analysis been posted anywhere else on the web where I can cite it in discussions? This is a subject that needs much more attention.

In case you missed it, here's an article on American fascism from last summer. I think I'll repost it shortly on the DU political disccusion forum -- you might consider posting your analysis there too, sort of a 1-2 punch!

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0719-15.htm

The Ghost of Vice President Wallace Warns: "It Can Happen Here"
by Thom Hartmann

(snip)

Although most Americans remember that Harry Truman was Franklin D. Roosevelt's Vice President when Roosevelt died in 1945 (making Truman President), Roosevelt had two previous Vice Presidents - John N. Garner (1933-1941) and Henry A. Wallace (1941-1945). In early 1944, the New York Times asked Vice President Henry Wallace to, as Wallace noted, "write a piece answering the following questions: What is a fascist? How many fascists have we? How dangerous are they?"

Vice President Wallace's answer to those questions was published in The New York Times on April 9, 1944, at the height of the war against the Axis powers of Germany and Japan.

"The really dangerous American fascists," Wallace wrote, "are not those who are hooked up directly or indirectly with the Axis. The FBI has its finger on those. The dangerous American fascist is the man who wants to do in the United States in an American way what Hitler did in Germany in a Prussian way. The American fascist would prefer not to use violence. His method is to poison the channels of public information. With a fascist the problem is never how best to present the truth to the public but how best to use the news to deceive the public into giving the fascist and his group more money or more power."

In this, Wallace was using the classic definition of the word "fascist" - the definition Mussolini had in mind when he claimed to have invented the word. (It was actually Italian philosopher Giovanni Gentile who wrote the entry in the Encyclopedia Italiana that said: "Fascism should more appropriately be called corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power." Mussolini, however, affixed his name to the entry, and claimed credit for it.)

(snip)

Vice President Wallace bluntly laid out in his 1944 Times article his concern about the same happening here in America: " If we define an American fascist as one who in case of conflict puts money and power ahead of human beings, then there are undoubtedly several million fascists in the United States. There are probably several hundred thousand if we narrow the definition to include only those who in their search for money and power are ruthless and deceitful. ... They are patriotic in time of war because it is to their interest to be so, but in time of peace they follow power and the dollar wherever they may lead."


(snip)
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Stop_the_War Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. I agree
The FR site is disgusting. So is the "LibertyForum" site. Ugh that site has a bunch of anti-semitic racist nutcases.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
6. Though unlike a few other conservative sites
there are still a few reasoned voices at FR. There are others out there without a single voice of reason and those are nastier than you can imagine.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. see
that's like saying my friend is intelligent but he voted for Bush. Something doesn't quite mesh. Why would a "reasoned voice" want to be in the company of such utter ignorance? Read a few threads and tell me it doesn't make you sick. Why would a reasonable person choose to be associated with crap?
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Oh it makes me sick alright
but there are other sites that make you even sicker.

Just like Bush. The minute you think, you've seen it all, they hit a new, unbelievable low.

Look at FR during the Tsunami, there were still some voices of compassion and empathy. There are others where even that SHRED was lacking!

I don't know the answer to your question but my guess would be that with passing time some posters there leave, as sickened as the Republicans who are leaving the party.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. agreed
I just don't think a decent human being could support this fascist bunch in power right now.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Agree but with one small caveat
Edited on Sun Jan-16-05 04:42 PM by Tinoire
(that I often forget)

the older people... the decent ones who spend more time gardening and cooking for their grand-kids, the decent ones who just don't know and have no way of knowing because this is no longer the country they knew and they have no idea how untrustworthy their media and politicians are.

I'd like to think that there are still a few decent ones left who just don't know.

Overall though, I agree with you.

Ah Skittles, can you believe how far we've come since the first time you and I met? Horrible.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. it has indeed been a wild ride
fixing to get wilder!
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Oh yeah!
Well Skittles dear :hug:

Hang on to your hat too! I'm braced. Not ready, but braced nonetheless! :hi:
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Khephra would never have given up
and neither will we; we are in it for the LONG HAUL! :hi:
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
27. Another sick one
is Matrixx Entertainment. They're convinced that there's a "Jewish Conspiracy" in Hollywood, and that's why their bad movies can't get made.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
7. Anyone know
how many members free republic has?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Old Mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
28. I am ashamed
that I laughed so much at this picture... ;)
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
9. believe it
most of the Bush voters aren't as outspoken but deep down they are paranoid, homophopic, a bit sick in their thinking. Believe it. The freaks at freak republic simply are not ashamed to be out of the closet.
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Rockerdem Donating Member (706 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
20. That website is anaerobic
Rotting garbage. Stay away.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
22. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Buh-bye!
Back to freeperland goes that FreepoFascist. :D

THANKS, MODS, GREAT JOB! :)
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Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. Hahaha
GONE ... that was fast, another one bites the dust! :D
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MellowOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
23. Would you post the link.
I want to take a peek.
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President Kerry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. ok... at your own risk. and keep a barfbag handy
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
34. "Fresno".... what do you expect
Anyone who knows fresno, knows not to expect much. Drive round the
place some time.... its a mediocre shithole... no suprise at all that
free republic is there.
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NationalEnquirer Donating Member (571 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
35. Wow, I just went there.
I heard they "broke" the memo thing, whatever, but I went because you people made me curious.
Now, I dont want to generalize, but SOME of those people are scary!
They are the EXACT kind of Repugs that turned me off to Republicanism.
At one point in my life, I was pretty much a moderate, and Republicans and Democrats were different sides to the same coin.
But people like THAT turned me away FOR GOOD.

The worst part is that some of those people apparently are pretty smart (their science threads are pretty good actually), so they are probably pretty capable of arguing their twisted cause and making it sound good.
How can otherwise smart people believe in such hateful things?
I just don't get it.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-16-05 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
36. Free Republic is *wonderful*
Edited on Sun Jan-16-05 08:37 PM by Donald Ian Rankin
I go there most nights. It's... incredibly invigorating. Like bathing in acid.

I disagree with an awful lot of what I read on DU, and whenever I find myself beginning to doubt that these people really can be right, I think of FR, and remind myself that no, for all their faults, DUers really are the good guys.

My favourite bit is the religion forum. The amount of heat that can be generated over issues like whether or not salvation is predestined is unbelievable. They bicker with vast energy and venom about minutiae of doctrine and theology, and no-one ever puts forward the position that doing good works is more important than using a latin mass as opposed to an english one.

"What is it all but a labour of ants in the glare of a million million of suns".

It's immensely relaxing, too. With most political commentary I have to keep asking myself "Is this writer wrong? If so, why? How can I rebut them?". On FR, I never have to worry about the writer being right and the mistakes are almost always easy to spot.

FR helps keep me sane, and it certainly keeps me a liberal.
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