I realize that religion brings hope to a lot of people....

[Guy Fawkes]

but sometimes I wonder if that can make up for the millions of people it has killed. How many countless millions have died because of a difference in religion? The Inquisition, the Crusades, World War II, the Israel/Palestine conflict, the Iraq War, the Afghanistan war... So many millions- perhaps billions- of people.

Just thinking out loud...

[The Straight Story]

1. Or in the difference of political systems

How can anyone of any solution to government as bringing hope, when all governments have done is to bring war?

Most religions have a peaceful message of caring for each other, love others as you do yourself, etc - religion is not the problem, the leaders of countries which weild power over the military is one of the biggest (though not the only one). Scientists invent new ways for us to kill each other, governments use those ways to attack others.

Without religion you would still have a mass of people who did not agree on things and who saw others as threats, they would just use different reasons.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

19. Or just because...

In Somalia, where everyone is Muslim, they fight over clan loyalties.

In India, Hindus fought one another over what the official language of India should be.

In Northern Ireland, "Catholics" and "Protestants" are not fighting about theology, but about economics and politics. The Protestants are the descendants of Scots who were brought over by the British and set up as kind of a ruling class.

In Rwanda, Hutus and Tutsis slaughtered one another over ethnic rivalries.

And that's just in my lifetime.

[Rabrrrrrr]

2. And how many have been saved by it?

Through countless acts of charity, hiding Jews in WWII, helping to end Apartheid, the Civil Rights Movement in the US, etc. etc. etc.

Not to say you aren't right - untold millions, perhaps billions, have been slaughtered in the name of every religion.

But you have to weigh both ends of the scale.

[Guy Fawkes]

4. You're right, but I wish

that people would do all of those things just because it is the right thing to do. When you stand up and say "I will do this because XXXXX wants me to," you put across a little bit of resentment for having to do it.

[CarpeVeritas]

6. not all charitable acts are done by religioids

atheists can have just as much concern, if not more, for their fellow man.

[Rabrrrrrr]

7. Did I say they didn't?

No, I didn't. The question was posed about religion, I answered in terms of the religious.

Don't dispute something I didn't say - it quite unfairly makes me look like I was wrong and stupid, and I was neither.

Of course Atheists show great charity. One of the most giving and welcoming people I've ever met was a frat brother who was an atheist. Put pretty much all of us "religious" types to shame.

And welcome to DU! :hi:

[SomeYoungGuy]

12. More people died in the 20th century than any other.

Think of the number of people who died because of differences of political philosophy rather than religious differences. Stalin, Hitler, & Pol Pot come to mind. (Hitler killed Jews because of their Jewish race, not their Jewish religion. There is a difference.) I haven't verified it, but think it's true that more people were murdered in the last century by brutal dictators (or killed in wars fighting against them) than in all of the wars in world history combined. Religion is responsible for ongoing strife between individuals and countries, but the number of deaths is relatively small compared to the number of political murders in the last century.

Killing in the name of religion or politics or anger or whatever is a symptom of the human condition. Religion, politics, etc. are just excuses used by brutal people to carry out their brutality.

[SmokingJacket]

16. Is that religion? Or just being moral? nt

[Rabrrrrrr]

17. There's only one way to answer that question - ask the people who did it

I was speaking only from the religious bent - there were definitely Christians helping Jews in WWII because of their Christian faith; Christians fighthing Apartheid because of their Christian faith; many people who marched in the civil rights movement in the US because they were Christian; and so on and so on and so on.

Likewise, there were those who were, I'm sure, fighting these causes for moral reasons not based in religious thinking, and those who were doing because of their calling by other faiths - Hindu, Buddhist, whatever.

The only way to know is to ask the people who did it, and why they did it. We certainly have it on record that a lot of people have done it for religious reasons. I'm sure we have plenty of evidence that many did it for moral, non-religious reasons. Some probably even did it out of pragmatism - "If I don't help these people, maybe someday someone will come for me."

Your strawman here does not hold up at all, in my opinion - assuming you were trying to offer a snide strawman argument. If you weren't, then apologies to you.

[SmokingJacket]

21. No, I wasn't being snide.

(If you meant to reply to me?)

As an extremely moral but nonreligious person, I take umbrage at the common assumption that morals can *only* be derived from a religious system. I didn't mean to say that you were saying this -- just that it is a point that needs to be made.

In my experience, whether a person is religious or not is no indication of how moral they are.

I'm actually not sure where I stand on this argument -- whether or not the sum total effect of religions on the world is positive or negative. I think it's probably too complex to establish with any certainty. Does the Inquisition cancel out Mother Teresa? Who can say?

[Rabrrrrrr]

27. Very good - it was hard to tell with your post

if it was a snide one, or a legitimate one.

I agree - one's profession of faith has no correlation to one's morality or ethics. Which is sad, since it shouldn't be that way. But lots of so-called Christians are Christian by profession only, certainly not by action.

[DireStrike]

3. Everyone has faith in something. Tolerance and Open Discussion are

the only way to reconcile our personal beliefs with each other.

People would still judge each other without religion, and the judgements would still be exactly as flawed and harmful.

I'm agnostic, if it matters to anyone.

[rwenos]

5. Always the Bloodiest

Religious wars are always the bloodiest.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

20. You mean like World War I or World War II?

Not religious wars, just wars. And quite bloody.

Or Korea, the Civil War or Vietnam or the Spanish American War or the War of 1812 or the Revolution.

Lots of war, no religious reasons.

[DrWeird]

8. Anytime somebody asks if other people's faiths are worse than theirs...

(or lack thereof)

...they're full of it.

[Az]

9. Dogmatic Authoratative systems

Need not be religion. But they do lead to impressive conflicts.

[stray cat]

10. Religion is often an excuse to kill rather than the real reason.

I suspect Hitler would have found a scapegoat regardless of religion and the same goes for many of the other conflicts. No excuse for when religion is the only reason for the conflict but I don't think it happens all that often. We (meaning people) seem to find reasons to dehumanize any group of people when we it benefits us.

[Rabrrrrrr]

18. You could be right - leveraging people's religious sensibilities is an

excellent way to get the ignorant masses to do what you want.

Not sure if they're gonna go along with a new idea? Put it in a religious context and whip 'em into a frenzy.

Look at how well the Republican party plays into and sponges off the religious sensibilities of what are, I should hope to think, good-natured people who wouldn't otherwise go for the bullshit.

And when you can tie patriotism into the religion, which the republican party and the rightwing Christians are EXCEEDINGLY good at, then you have a total winner. Then you can have all the voter fraud you want, because you're only frauding the vote of the godless democrats, so that's okay.

[bloom]

30. RE: "Religion is often an excuse to kill rather than the real reason."

I agree with this.

Of course when B**h starts talking Crusades, when people delude themselves with chants of "God Bless American" as if "God" would only bless them in their attempt to kill others... :crazy: it's enough to make people want to run away from religion.

[Kitka]

32. Ah, should have read your response first. I agree.

[Lizzie Borden]

11. I've wondered that myself.

Frequently it seems that religion has just been used to justify acts of aggression between two parties. 'My religion is better than yours.' Or, "my god is more right and powerful." I think it's perfectly ridiculous. I feel that if there is a god, s/he is probably offended by all the senseless killing being done in his/her name.

[TWiley]

13. Today, religion = political activism.

I really believe we should tax the bastards. They have become nothing more than a propaganda / campaign tool for the new reich.

The only religious group the I support is the "Interfaith Alliance"

[Acryliccalico]

14. Religion

is on the way out. IMHO if we are to move on to millions of new discoveries and millions of ways of helping humans and all other living things, then religion must be put into perspective. In doing that, it would be seen as it truly is. (Imaginary powers that helped mankind deal with the questions that he could not answer.) Rituals that made mankind feel that there was something out there, who could think, and had total control. It gave man the best excuses for his down falls and bad choices. It took the blame away and gave something else the power. It has always been easier to follow, or get others to follow if it could be said that it was a super power that was the guiding force.

Now I believe that we have come to a point where science is on the verge of developing things that would discount such religions. All of the religions are having a hard time giving up power and control. I don't think it is so much a matter of which religion is best and gets it right as much as it is a question of, is religion relevant. I think that belief systems are changing and fundamentalists are fighting for their lives. Science is proving that our primary belief systems have to change. Anyway that is my thought on it.

:shrug:

[Az]

15. Religion has a history of not giving in to progress if it can control it

Religion has a better hold on society and its course than science does. Of course science has a stronger impact to bring about change but it does not directly advocate any change. Its a battle to see which shall cause the other to blink first.

[DoYouEverWonder]

22. I think it would help

if we make a distinction between people who are truly 'religious' or follow a spiritual path, has opposed to people who are religiously insane and will justify all sorts of crimes against their fellow humans because they convince themselves that they are doing god's will.

[rasputin1952]

23. You make a good point...Zealots, regardless of their belief system,

are dangerous entities. When there is no room for thought, only the non-thinking control the situation.

Pick and Choose "theologians", are some of the most incompetent purveyors of religious messages one could ask for...regardless of religion, they are consistentlt taking things out of context, and missing the messages that are shown in the various religious texts.

[ArkDem]

24. Just the fact that religion caused World War II is enough for me

to stay away from it.

[Rabrrrrrr]

26. Say more about that.

About how religion caused WWII.

I'm curious as to your theory.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

28. Yeah, that's a new one

The Holocaust occurred on the scale that it did because it went along with Hitler's ambitions to conquer the world, and while the desire to exterminate Jews was one of his reasons, it was far from the only reason.

The Japanese government used an inauthentic, state-created form of Shinto to get people enthusiastic about its plans to conquer Asia, but in the end, the reasons were economic. Japan has almost no natural resources, and they had their eye on the minerals and oil of Southeast Asia.

[Rabrrrrrr]

29. I was certainly surprised to read that was the reason

I await with eager breath the reasoning behind this new theory.

[ArkDem]

35. Sarcasm. The original post list wwII as one of the religious

wars.

[Rabrrrrrr]

37. It was so subtle, and so excellent, I missed it!

I'd forgotten the original post mentioned WWII as a religious war.

Thanks for explaining!

In hindsight, your post is brilliant.

:hi:

[bloom]

33. I'm no history scholar

but Hitler seemed awfully interested in trying to purify Germany so that it fit his model idea of traditional (Protestant) Germanism that did not include Jews and a number of other groups.

He was certainly trying to rally others around that cause in Mein Kampf.




Just like with Iraq. We say it is about Oil and imperialism and such - but that isn't the message that FOX, CNN, B**h, etc. have conveyed. For B**h it's a CRUSADE - it's bringing them Freedom and Democracy. For many people it seems to be about believing we are better than they are.... not so unlike Hitler's message.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

38. Hitler was brought up Catholic, and in those days, there was still a

lot of bad blood between Catholics and Protestants, so I doubt that he was trying to create a "Protestant" Germany.

He may have paid lip service to Christianity, but really turned him on was Germanic mythology, especially as exemplified in the operas of Wagner. The association between Wagner and Hitler was so strong that for years, the music of Wagner was banned in Israel (it may still be),

[bloom]

39. Apparently-

Hitler aligned himself with the ‘Los von Rom’ movement and later the Germanenorden. For those interested in the details - see:

http://andromeda.webd.com.br/book/Invisible_Eagle.htm

"The association of Catholicism with Slavdom and
the Austrian state could further be emphasised, Schonerer believed, by a movement for Protestant conversion; this was the origin of the slogan ‘Los von Rom’ (‘Away from Rome’).

also:
"For a long time the Slav clergy has preached the doctrine that German is synonymous with Lutheran. 'Very well,' say now the Germans, 'we will become Lutheran to emphasize our nationality. Los von Rom!'

(from The Tageblatt of Vienna )

[Acryliccalico]

25. Kick n/t

:kick:

[Kitka]

31. Eliminating religion from the equation wouldn’t have prevented

too many of those millions deaths in its name. At least, that’s my opinion. When religion can bring one person complete peace and spur them to do good for others and themselves in this world, and bring another to kill others in its’ name, you can’t blame the religion for that. You blame the person who uses religion as an excuse. The person who would kill for religion would kill for another reason.

It’s not a matter of the good religion may play in some lives “making up” for the deaths incurred in the name of religion. Nothing can make up for that. But neither can billions of death attributed to religion be blamed 100% on doctrine.

[IrateCitizen]

34. Today of all days should answer that question for you...

After all, he was the REVEREND Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

[ThorsHammer]

36. I support religion, but not the violence done in "its name"