Where did cain and able's wives come from?

[Mizmoon]

I was wondering, does anyone know what these Creationist types say when asked where cain and able's wives came from? It's a pretty obvious plot flaw in Genesis.

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. I am guessing they were all relatives? But then, I don't

subscribe to a literal view of the scriptures in many cases.

------------------------------------
Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/

[ET Awful]

2. Not really, the commonly accepted belief is that their wives were

their sisters, and that such was acceptable in those times, being as there were no other human beings around and all :).

Of course, the leprechauns and the fairies were hiding in the trees, and the unicorns were shocked at such crass incestuous behavior :)

[okieinpain]

61. oh lordy, and what would god think of such behavior.

[Spider Jerusalem]

3. Abel didn't have a wife...

Cain offed him before he could get hitched...then Cain went off to the Land of Nod, where apparently there was another god in charge and a separate creation, or something...it's not too clear there, but it seems like ol' YHVH's domain didn't extend very far in those days.

[okieinpain]

62. damn you, I shit my pants.

[noonwitch]

4. Cain found his wife in the Land of Nod

East of Eden, after he was banished for killing his brother. Did Abel have a wife? I though Cain killed him before he did.

Obviously, the tale of creation and the tale of the fall of man in Genesis are allegories, not fundamental facts. There are a few other holes in the story, like two different tellings of the creation, one that has Eve being created from Adam's rib, and the other just stating that God created them all, male and female alike.

[phylny]

71. I believe that since Jesus spoke in parables,

that is, he told stories to illustrate his points, that God would as well.

So, I have no problem believing that God created everything, but did it in his own time. I'm not scholarly, but I believe Genesis is told much like a parable, a story to illustrate. It's much better storytelling to say that it happened in six days...millions (billions?) of years seems more like it, yes?

:)

[BurtWorm]

5. She had evolved from a monkey, I think.

:shrug:

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

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[UdoKier]

9. Wow, poor Eve.

"thirty-three sons and twenty-three daughters."

Talk about a baby machine...

[BiggJawn]

23. Year, but they were spread out over a few hundred years...

It's not like J. S. Bach birthing his first wife to death after a dozen kids, then having another dozen with his second wife in less than a century....

[UdoKier]

36. Not that I actually believe they really had that many kids.

or that they really lived that long.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

45. Not true about Bach

His first wife (Maria Barbara) had seven children, and she died not in childbirth, but of some severe illness.

His second wife (Anna Magdelena) had thirteen children and outlived him.

Only about half of the twenty children lived to adulthood.

[BiggJawn]

60. That's what I get for not refreshing my memory....

Thanks, Lydia...But you gotta agree, having that many kids in about 20 years or less would be worse than spreading 4X as many out over several HUNDRED years! :-)

[opihimoimoi]

42. NO TV in those days I guess.......

[Mizmoon]

12. Pretty disatisfying double-talk

but I guess there is no real answer since it's all a creation myth anyway

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

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[Mizmoon]

20. I don't believe the world is flat

or that it's the center of the universe either. Do you?

[WoodrowFan]

46. too late, he's gone

ok, who had 14 posts in the poll?? (I had 12, damn it).

[UdoKier]

24. God help you...

if you're incapable of imagining a universe touched by the hand of a higher power without the story going EXACTLY as described in genesis.

Even many of the Catholic high priesthood recognize that the creation story and other parables are just storied for teach ing a lesson, and not to be taken literally. That doesn't make them atheists.

How sad it must be to have such a narrow range of possibilities in your mind.



BTW, want some some pizza?

[Hoping4Change]

34. And where in the Creation story is there any indication of

Intelligent Design? What's intelligent about relatives screwing each other for 400 years?

[bryant69]

18. If it's just a myth

Why the strenuous efforts to prove it wrong?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Mizmoon]

22. Because of the strenuous efforts to impose it on me

if you people would keep it in your church I wouldn't care about it at all

[bryant69]

25. Hmmmmm

Atheists complaining about persecution and Christians complaining about persecution sound more or less the same to me.

[Mizmoon]

29. Persecution? Wha?

??

[bryant69]

30. So you don't think that Christians are imposing their religion on you?

I thought that is what you said.

[BurtWorm]

37. I think she's asking who's persecuting Christians?

I think it's a fair question.

[bryant69]

39. Well that's my point

Some Atheists feel that Christians are imposing their beliefs on them or persecuting them, and some Christians feel that Atheists are imposing their beliefs on them or persecuting them.

I don't really see either argument myself--I mean isolated cases I see, and more on the Atheist side, but in general I dont' see it.

[WoodrowFan]

43. I don't either

I can see both sides in isolated cases, but both sides sometimes seem to be determined to be offended. Some atheists seem to think that any mention of Christianity that's not in a church between 11 am and noon on Sunday is stuffing religion down their throat and some Christians seem to think if they can't teach the 1611 KJV in every class in the county that THEY'RE being oppressed.

[BurtWorm]

44. Christians are imposing their beliefs on them

in Dover, Pennsylvania, for instance. On our coins. In the pledge. Our fellow Americans have also made it plain that we can't run for most elected offices and be honest our beliefs. Is that persecution? I wouldn't call it that. But it is a double standard. We are second class citizens in our own country. We can't take our rights for granted the way most Christians can.

[Fifth of Five]

68. Bravo!

Second class citizens - that's it exactly. We seem to be automatically disqualified for public office. Why someone's religion (or lack thereof)is seen as more important than the person's position on issues is beyond me, but it absolutely is to a large portion of the population where I live.

Being "active in his/her church" is a required line item on any candidate's resume.

[phylny]

72. Not this Christian.

It wouldn't bother me one bit if every reference to God was removed from our money, pledges, you name it.

Just as you want to be free to believe as you do, I want you to have that freedom, free of harassment.

I want to be free to believe what I believe, and I don't need money, or other people, to state it or believe it with me.

[Mizmoon]

38. Impose is not the same as persecute

But you knew that.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

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[BurtWorm]

28. Who do you mean by "we?"

Out of curiosity.

[Spider Jerusalem]

32. And more than 85% of medieval Europeans believed the earth was flat.

Doesn't mean they were right. Belief and knowledge are quite different.

[Mizmoon]

33. Your church has rights coming out of its ass

It has the right to teach anything it wants.
It can have its own building and even a school. Hell, it can have dozens of schools.
You can send your kids there for a religious education.
You can teach them that the universe was created by magic ferrets if you'd like.

The one think you can't do is impose your ferret religion on me and my family. We're busy worshipping rabbits, thank you.

[Warpy]

21. Cain found his wife in the land of Nod, east of Eden

Adam and Eve were the ancestors of the Jews. The rest of us were already here, apparently. If Adam and Eve were anything, they were the Rousseauvian ideal of the noble savage, born into a protected environment, free from the possibilities of greed and want until Adam got jealous of Eve's ability to eat fruit of knowledge that was forbidden him and got them both kicked out into the cold, cruel world.

By the way, incestuous marriages were not forbidden by god in Mosaic law. That was something the priestly class came up with, along with all that other stuff in Leviticus, like killing children who sass you and not wearing mixed fibre clothing.

It's all there in the Bowdlerized history we call the Old Testament, but sometimes you need to read between the lines.

[UdoKier]

7. They were Cain and Abel's sisters.

You didn't know that we're all children of incest?

Silly You.

God was so all-powerful that he could make the whole world in 6 days, but he couldn't be bothered to make another couple to provide for a more diverse gene pool.

How appropriate that it's mostly folks in the rural south who insist on believing in a LITERAL interpretation of the creation FABLE.

(cue dueling banjos music)

[Inland]

10. Ewwww! I'll take being descended from monkeys over incest any day!

eom

[WoodrowFan]

8. from Answersingenesis

you owe me a beer for going to that site to find this...

Cain’s brothers and sisters
Cain was the first child of Adam and Eve recorded in Scripture (Genesis 4:1). His brothers, Abel (Genesis 4:2) and Seth (Genesis 4:25), were part of the first generation of children ever born on this Earth.

Even though only these three males are mentioned by name, Adam and Eve had other children. In Genesis 5:4 a statement sums up the life of Adam and Eve—‘And the days of Adam after he had fathered Seth were eight hundred years. And he fathered sons and daughters.’ This does not say when they were born. Many could have been born in the 130 years (Genesis 5:3) before Seth was born.

During their lives, Adam and Eve had a number of male and female children. The Jewish historian Josephus wrote that, ‘The number of Adam’s children, as says the old tradition, was thirty-three sons and twenty-three daughters.’11

The Bible does not tell us how many children were born to Adam and Eve. However, considering their long life spans (Adam lived for 930 years—Genesis 5:5), it would seem reasonable to suggest there were many! Remember, they were commanded to ‘Be fruitful, and multiply’ (Genesis 1:28).

The wife
If we now work totally from Scripture, without any personal prejudices or other extra-Biblical ideas, then back at the beginning, when there was only the first generation, brothers would have had to have married sisters or there would be no more generations!

We are not told when Cain married or any of the details of other marriages and children, but we can say for certain that some brothers had to marry their sisters at the beginning of human history.

[Mizmoon]

14. as I said to the above poster

pretty disatisfying drivel in place of a real explanation

[WoodrowFan]

16. no, it works

but damn, Cain had to wait awhile didn't he. Even if they did marry at 13. Of course you realize what this means, right? Eden was in West Virginia!

[Old and In the Way]

49. Seems Original Sin would be found in that 1st generation.

Maybe the scribes doing the news back then got it wrong. That would explain a lot. I wonder why God didn't think of that when he created Adam and Eve? He should have ordered up at least one other couple, maybe Bill and Jane, to address that flawed creation plan.

[Mabus]

11. apparently there's always been a split

between god's people and those of the common man (people like me, I guess).

However, I found a page for you that explains it in the "Fundie Way" at
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c004.html

Of course, this explanation completely ignores Lilith, Adam's first wife. So, it is in keeping with their usual philosophy, i.e. "if it doesn't fit, ignore it."

[WoodrowFan]

17. Lilith

Lilith isn't exactly Biblical so they can ignore her.

[Mabus]

26. But didn't they all start out as Jewish?

and the first five books of their religion = The Torah.

[WoodrowFan]

35. yeah but

It's not in Genesis, it's more of a Jewish myth, part of an amplification of Genesis. Modern Christains don't use those additions so it's not Biblical so fundys don't HAVE to explain her. In other words, she is referenced in the Talmud, not the Torah.

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/Lilith/

[Mabus]

50. I know

I was just highlighting how they pick and choose their information and disregard/dismiss anything that doesn't fit their fantasy-world.

[ArkDem]

13. The real question isn't where from but how often.

[MsTryska]

19. I just thought they got them from pagan goat worshiping

non-jewish tribes that hung out in the next oasis over.



remember genesis is after all only the Judeo-christian Origin myth.

[peekaloo]

31. they rode in on dinosaurs!

:silly:

[WoodrowFan]

56. Cain married Alley Oop??

Now I am confused..





BTW, this graphic comes from a site that WOULD argue exactly that! that they rode dinosaurs!! :eyes:

[jackster]

40. I've also heard fundies...

say that God created others after Adam and Eve and THAT's where the wives came from...

[Cleita]

41. Sisters?

Marrying your sister in ancient times was often an acceptable practice. The patriarch Abraham's wife Sara was his half-sister.

[opihimoimoi]

47. Pure undiluted poppycock.... Josphesus is reffered to but investigations

show he was a fraud figure.

Noah traveled all over the World capturing animals and birds from all the Continents and Islands and Oceans/Seas.

Then, after FLOOD and landing, all the animals and birds had to find their way to their present lands.

Marrying sisters/brothers is an explanation....of the story told. Was it true? Perhaps. we will never know. Hormones being Hormones, I guess it has some semblence of truth ....

How many stones was in Davids Pouch as he approached Goliath?

The answer in next weeks edition of Brother/Sister Love Tales.

Come, we go thimk

[Cleita]

48. LOL

Yeah, I was playing along for the sake of argument. Actually, this was an explanation a nun gave us in religion class. She also said that back then not only incestuous relations with sisters were permitted by God, but polygamous marriages as well because of the need to populate the earth. God did draw the line at father and daughter unions though as evidenced in the story of Lot and his daughters.

[opihimoimoi]

52. This is 2005, we are in the NUKE AGE, the TECH AGE.....

we have inquiring minds, systems allowing the AIRBUS to carry 800 passengers, flights to the moon, missions to Mars, Jupiter, Pluto, and beyond.

This is the AGE of REason, when Sanity/Reality meets Fantasy and DElusion.... The Real war is an ONGOING battle for the hearts and minds of the masses out there....

come, we go read a thread that includes this part.

[Az]

64. Genetic mytochondrial evidence suggests otherwise

The genetic bottleneck a single pair such as Adam and Eve would create would show up in the genetic records rather strongly. There is evidence of a bottleneck that decreased the human population to a very low number at some point. But it is no where near 1 breeding couple.

[DrWeird]

51. They married Cinderella's evil step sisters.

Little known fact.

[WoodrowFan]

53. ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

the ugly step sisters? Even the one that looked and sounded like Larry king??

[ElsewheresDaughter]

54. Nod

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

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[progressoid]

57. Everything You Know Is Wrong

Thank you,

Firesign Theatre

[RetroLounge]

58. Yeah, I asked the same question in Sunday School

when I was about 10. I was toldby the obviously upset pastor to shut up and quit being a smart-aleck. Plus they talked to my parents. I walked away from the Church immediately and have never regretted it.

I mean, if a question posed by a 10 yr old shakes your religious foundation, then maybe you need a more well-thought-out myth.

RL

[Melynn]

59. Easy Answer

They were made by the great big invisible man in the sky.

[Hobo]

63. You are not supposed

to ask that question.


Hobo

[killbotfactory]

65. The Moon!

There was a whole lotta inscest lovin' goin' on in the bible. At least early on.

[Buns_of_Fire]

66. Apparently, they were begatting their brains out

for those first few centuries! :wow:

[theboss]

67. Two theories

1). Cain's wife was his sister. (Able didn't have a wife as far as we know).

2). It's possible that there were people outside the Garden.

But the key to understanding the Genesis story is that once Man fell, all the rules for Man immediately changed. Man was apparently meant to life in a perfect, peaceful state for all eternity. After the Fall, all the rules immediately changed. So maybe God created more people.

[mcscajun]

69. Well...your post immediately suggested "Inherit the Wind"

and the following exchange between the fictional Henry Drummond and Matthew Brady (literary counterparts to the real-life lawyers in the Scopes Trial, Clarence Darrow and William Jennings Bryan):

Drummond: Now, now listen to this. This is Genesis 4 to 16: "And Cain went out from the presence of the Lord and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. And Cain knew his wife." Now where the hell did she come from?

Brady: Who?

Drummond: Mrs. Cain. Cain's wife. If, in the beginning, there were just Cain and Abel, and Adam and Even, where did this extra woman come from? Did you ever stop to think about that?

Brady: No, sir. I leave the agnostics to hunt for her.

[Nobody]

70. What I'd like to know is...

If we're all descended from two people, that makes us all family, right? Why the hell don't people get along better than we do? Even if you hate your brother or sister, most people would still stick up for them.

Somehow the creation myth doesn't do much more than blaming women for all that is wrong with the world. (to be fair, the ancient Greeks did it too. Their creation myth didn't even have female humans until Zeus created Pandora)

Back to my original point. If we're all supposed to be siblings, we certainly don't act like it.

[Fleshdancer]

73. Jersey???

:silly: