As a Christian, I'm SICK of Christians WHINING about persecution!

[Bake]

I really am not trying to start a flame war here. Honestly.

But JESUS H. CHRIST!! I'm a Christian -- graduate of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, M.Div., 1979, ordained to the ministry in 1977 by a Southern Baptist church -- and I've just HAD IT with fundamentalists whining about how they're persecuted in the good ol' US of A these days! Scarborough reports that Rolling Stone turned down an ad for Bibles. So what? It's a private enterprise, it can advertise whatever it wants to!

Any fundies who think they are persecuted in America in the 21st Century need to look at HISTORY!! Christians were burned at the stake to provide light for Nero's gardens! They had to live in the catacombs under Rome! Professing their faith was LITERALLY a matter of life and death!!

And these people, for Christ's sake, think that because they can't dictate to everyone else, who think that THEY ARE BEING PERSECUTED?? Give me a freakin' break! To put it in terms they may (or may not!) understand, grace may be FREE but it AIN'T CHEAP!! They need to read Bonhoeffer's "Letters from Prison." They need to understand on a personal basis what it's like to risk their very lives for their faith!

The worst thing that could have happened for the Christian Church (in the "generic" sense) was the converstion of Constantine, the Roman Emperor. Christians ever since then forgot what it was like to "take up their cross and follow Jesus."

Bake

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. Where are all those lions when you really need them?

The fundies holler "Persecution!" whenever it is suggested that maybe we should also respect other people's religions. Feh.

[Az]

13. Ironically

The Romans tossed the Christians to the lions because they would not swear to their oathe. And the reason was because they were asking them to swear to their gods. Of course now it is atheists being made to swear to a god and most don't seem to get the connection.

[leesa]

2. No Shit! They control absolutely EVERYTHING in this country.

Greedy, greedy people.

[w4rma]

42. The ones in control are *not* Chrisitan. They only say they are.

“Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. So then, you will know them by their fruits.” Matthew 7:15-18, 20 (NASB)

[Liberal Veteran]

47. But isn't that ALWAYS the excuse?

I don't mean to impugn anyone's faith, but let's be honest here. everytime Christianity gets it's hands on political power they abuse it:

The Inquisition
The stamping out of paganism
The Crusades
The witch trials of the Americas

To some extent even the invasion of Iraq fits that bill as much of the mainstream protestant sects in America supported the war. One baptist church I drove past on the way to work had a printed sign telling us to "Take Saddam Out!".

That's the wisdom of COMPLETE separation of church and state. Because historically, the church has proven it will abuse any form of political power it gets.

And in hindsight the excuse is always: They were "real" Christians.

[Rowdyboy]

3. Well said!

You and I are usually defined by the very worst of those who claim to share our religious convictions. They embarrass me. Its a a very sad situation when people believe every Christian is a right-wing nutcase.

Just a question, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary isn't anywhere near Laurel is it?

[Bake]

10. SBTS, Louisville, Kentucky!

The oldest Southern Baptist seminary. Founded 1856. Historically, the "liberal" seminary! I used to hear it described as the "cemetary, where they bury the Bible!" HA! When I was there, Duke McCall (the bane of the fundies) was president, and he wrote a column for the Seminary's alum newsletter called "Thinking Aloud." We used to call it "Thinking Allowed." Note the difference! They not only ALLOWED us to think, they REQUIRED it back in those days!

Any Christians who think they are persecuted because retail clerks say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" need to pay a visit to Rome, ca. first century!! THEN, and ONLY THEN, can they talk to me about persecution!!

Bake

[Devlzown]

24. You're thinking about

Southeastern Baptist College which is in Laurel. That college is affiliated with a fundie Baptist denomination that has no connection to the Southern Baptist Convention. There is another Southern Baptist seminary in New Orleans, and it is thought to be much more conservative than the seminary in Louisville.

[Bake]

25. There are five Baptist seminaries in the USA

Southern, or as we call(ed) it, "Mother Seminary," the oldest one, in Louisville.

New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary (no city needed); Southeastern Bapt. (Wake Forest, N.C., usually thought of as the most liberal, after Southern); Midwestern (Kansas City, usually thought of as the most conservative); and Golden Gate (San Fran., usually thought of as "liberal").

Fact is, most Baptists wouldn't know a real theological "liberal" if it jumped up and slapped them in the face (or as we used to say at Southern, if it bit them in the ass!).

Bake
M.Div., SBTS (cum laude), 1979

(For the record, I also have an MBA and JD from Univ. of Louisville)

[atre]

27. Southeastern? Liberal?

That's odd. They certainly don't have that reputation among my friends in Campbell University's Divinity School.

On what basis do you think they're liberal? The only specific doctrine taught there of which I am aware - that women should be excluded from leadership positions in the church - could hardly be considered "liberal."

[bobbieinok]

29. what about Southwestern in Ft Worth?? is it no longer connected

to the Southern Baptist Convention??

[Bake]

35. Oops. How could I forget Southwestern?

Yes. Fort Worth. Still Sou. Baptist. Along with Midwestern, probably the most conservative (at least that used to be the case). Now they're all conservative, including Southeastern, most likely. It's been 20+ years since I was at Southern.

Bake

[Rowdyboy]

26. You're entirely correct! I'm from Laurel but haven't lived there since

1972 I used to pass that little bible college every day. Thanks for reminding me.

[SharonAnn]

4. That's why I love this bumper sticker.

I'm a New Testament Christian, you know, the Jesus stuff!

[DieboldMustDie]

18. Have you seen this one?

http://www.brethren.org/oepa/LoveYourEnemies.html

[More Than A Feeling]

5. Agreed!

I don't have your background with Christianity (ex-atheist, just baptized at the end of last year), but I thought that Republicans liked to sell themselves as the tough guy party. Its kind of hard to take that seriously when a large faction of them like to whine and scream about persecution when any little thing doesn't go their way, despite being the majority. They have the same problem with the so-called "liberal media". Being in the majority must make them very fragile.

[Bake]

17. And they have the nerve to talk about "suffering for Jesus"?????

No Christian is persecuted in the United States of America in the 20th/21st Century. Not one.

If anyone HAS, show me the "nail prints." Show me the scars from the scourging. Show me the tombstone. Show me the catacomb you've had to hide in. SHOW ME YOUR CROSS.

Don't whine to me about not being able to promote Christianity with taxpayer money. Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and unto God that which is God's. Show me some real SACRIFICE.

Christianity in America is far too easy. Jesus Himself would say (according to Revelation), "because you are neither hot nor cold I will spew you out of my mouth."

Look it up.

Bake

[acmavm]

6. Amen to that!

.

[alcuno]

7. "They're attacking us! They're attacking us!"

It's a typical right wing technique that they've been using for years and it has simply spilled over into fundie talking points.

[keopeli]

8. I concur. Actually, I think the next great Christian movement will be...

Martin Luther gave us the Reformation.
19th Century America (Victorian) gave us the Restoration.

Next, we will have the Revelation Movement - the true message of Christianity will finally move to the foreground, and many many many Christians (in America) will find themselves to have fallen.

I believe this will happen through the fall of a great Christian leader and subsequent awakening. The fall will probably be Stalin-esque, meaning post-mortem. Like Hitler (also a Christian), there will be an unravelling because of the massive scale of death and destruction that will lay at the hand of fundamentalism.

Of course, I have no idea if this will happen, but it seems like a real possibility. I just can not believe that Christianity will fall totally to corruption without redemption.

[Sporadicus]

9. I've Felt for a Long Time

that Christianity's message is subverted when it comes from a position of strength. It started on this path when the Roman Emperor Constantine claimed that God revealed a cross in the sky to him and said, in hoc signo vinces, 'in this sign, conquer.' After that, Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire, and it's been drifting farther from its spiritual roots ever since - giving us a series of disasters including the crusades, the inquisition, divine right of kings, justification for slavery, manifest destiny, etc.

Those 'Christians' in this country who claim persecution are just upset that they don't own EVERYthing. I would go so far as to to doubt their Christianity outright!

[DieboldMustDie]

15. Read what Cornel West has to say about Constantinian Christianity.

"...what we have today in the Christian right are Constantinian Christians. They are imperial Christians. They have lost the prophetic fervor of the very Jesus Christ that they proclaim as their savior. In fact, they're willing to sell their souls for a mess of imperial pottage in the name of the very Jesus who was put to death by the Roman Empire, the empire of its day."

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/09/07/140202

This is good too: http://www.alternet.org/story/20017/

[Sporadicus]

23. Bookmarked

Thanks! :hi:

[Warpy]

11. Somebody posted this site in an IRC chat

after hearing it trumpeted on Hannity & Colmes: http://www.repentamerica.com/

Now I may be missing something, but the only Christ I see here is the name. There's no Golden Rule, no Sermon on the Mount, no homilies, no punch lines from parables. However, there is a lot of notion of cultural persecution on the site.

Perhaps the problem comes because they know they're NOT Christians in a land where so many people like yourself have gotten the point.

Just a thought.

[Lexingtonian]

12. they're hardly Christians

Christolatry is what these people who give the tradition the bad name are about. And it's normal in idolatry that the major idol(s) must be given the most extreme efforts...just before they're abandoned for other ones.

[ilovenicepeople]

40. Shouldn't someone tell them that they are worshiping SATAN?

[Bake]

14. Here's some persecution for ya: Peter was crucified, upside down!

That, my friends, is what it means to be persecuted for one's faithQ The Apostle Peter, according to tradition, was crucified by the Romans UPSIDE DOWN. Head down. Imagine that.

But gee, we don't get to put up a manger scene at Christas with taxpayer funds. Wow. Some persecution.

Jesus Himself must be laughing. Or crying.

Bake

[Slyder]

16. Definition of persecution

Those who cry persecution say: "If YOU don't go to my church on Sunday, you are persecuting ME!". That's it in a nutshell. They are crying wolf. Should real persecution come, no one will listen. This is not new. Read up on the 1800 election and what the clergy said about Jefferson. He would set up Temples of Reason and turn their daughters into temple prostitutes on the model of ancient Babylon. It didn't happen.

[Bake]

20. If REAL persecution were to happen

these so-called Christians would be first in line to deny that they'd ever heard of "Christ" ("what? who? I don't know him!"). Quicker than Peter on Good Friday. Why? To protect their possessions.

The real New Testament Jesus said, "If you would follow me, go and sell all your possessions and give to the poor, take up your cross, and follow me."

And what happened? "They went away sorrowful, for they had great possessions."

Fundamentalist Christendom in America is all about CHEAP GRACE. If you want to know what that means, go read Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a Lutheran pastor in Hitler's Germany. He was imprisoned for opposing Der Fuhrer as a matter of FAITH.

Bake

[Az]

21. I suspect you may have hit the right button

In protests and marches I have been to where the religious right shows up to counter us (atheists and humanists) I often use what I call the Luke 6:30 bomb. In this verse Jesus tells his apostles how they are supposed to act towards those that are not with them or may oppose them. It specifically says that they should give to any that ask of them and any that take their posessions they should not ask for them back. Pretty much a message to not hang on to material posessions if I am any judge. But when confronted with this verse I have yet to meet a angry Christian that would actually follow the teaching of Jesus.

[Calvinist Basset]

19. I just received something today in an e-mail.

It was a bunch of "wah-wah-wah" crap about not being able to say "Merry Christmas" in schools, and the fear of losing "In God We Trust" on coins, etc.

I just wanted to toss my cookies.

If these people want to see persecution firsthand, there are places in the world I can take them. Frankly, I've been in numerous countries, and I can tell you that we Christians are not being persecuted in the U.S.

[Bake]

22. Amen, and amen!

It IS happening elsewhere in the world. But not here in the USA.

Pardon me while I go vomit.

Bake

[Ladyhawk]

28. Life in Our Anti-Christian America

http://www.infidels.org/misc/humor/lioaca.html

This puts it all in perspective.

[bobbieinok]

30. did you get caught in the RW take over of the SBC with required

adherence to statement of belief??? and in the split in the denomination where some left to start a less politically compromised denomination??

do you have any info on Pressler, one of the leaders of the take over??

[Bake]

36. The takeover was just starting in the 70s when I was there.

Duke McCall was forced to retire. A lot of the professors I had either retired or left. Those who stayed had to sign on to the official creed, the "Baptist Faith and Message," even though the Seminary's Abstract of Principles was one of the oldest statements of faith in the Convention.

I remember Pressler as one of the movers/shakers behind the takeover.

Bake

[kodi]

31. persecution? WWJD?

.

[PurityOfEssence]

32. There's "pro-religion", "religion neutral" and "anti-religion"

Evangelicals tend to believe that anything not the former is the latter. Taking Roy Moore's sculpture off the property isn't "anti-religion", it's "religion neutral"; putting up a crucifix surrounded by a red circle with a diagonal red slash through it is "anti-religion".

In reality, most of us who have problems with religion are perfectly happy to have it absent in government and leave it at that. Even just doing that, it inundates our society at every turn. I don't like Cartoon Network playing endless Christian music commercials in children's' hours, but they're free to do so. Fine.

Thanks for this thread, and thanks for your outlook, it's always nice to be reminded that sensible people exist.

There is a tiresome privilege inherent in true believers in most faiths, but especially in the ones that require their people to recruit heathens. Unfortunately, that means Christianity and Islam, which together comprise more than half of the damned species.

You touched upon it very well: it is their RIGHT to shove religion down everybody's throats, and their privilege that they're never to encounter any resistance to their theological aggression. It's an assault on a true Evangelical to resist his/her attempts. It's oppression to get in their exclusive way at any turn.

I'm sorry that these addle-headed fanatics spoil it for the rest of you folks, but as long as we keep it all in perspective, we'll be okay.

[The Magistrate]

33. Well Said, Mr. Baker!

You have put the essence of this spurious cry in a nut-shell: being deprived of the ability to pesecute others is the thing that gets these wretches howling they are persecuted.

"Where it is a duty to worship the sun, it is pretty sure to be a crime to examine the laws of heat."

[Debs]

34. There has never been

A more priveledged group of common people than white American Christians

[Bridget Burke]

37. "Christianity Under Attack"--Christian Reconstructionist talking point.

Here, the statement heads up a plea for money for the Chalcedon Foundation, founded by R J Rushdoony.

www.chalcedon.edu/underwriters.php

If you’re intellectually sensitive to the presuppositions underlying current events, you’ve already seen the explicit agenda of humanists to silence the Christian voice in America.

No doubt you are greatly disturbed by the efforts of secularists, pluralists, and false religious groups to remove the Judeo-Christian God “from every post and pillar.” The following is just a few of the wicked strategies imposed by such humanist organizations as the American Civil Liberties Union, Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, and other secular and false religious groups:

* The persecution of Chief Justice Roy Moore in Alabama

*The judicial attempts to remove Christian symbols, such as the nativity, from every public place

* The elimination of public prayer from every local and federal institution

* The promotion of gay marriage in Massachusetts and San Francisco

* The unhindered encroachment of Islam throughout Western nations

Many of the articles on this site show up as letters to the editor or special reports on Fox news. These Christian Reconstructionists, Dominionists or Theonomists have led the politicization of religion. Their goal is an ultra-Calvinist version of Old Testament society.

This movement goes beyond Fundamentalism, Evangelism or plain old conservativism.

[charlie]

38. GOOOO Bake!

Those are words to speak my feelings. But nobody listens to me, I'm one of those crazy atheists.

Thanks, bro :hi:

[Telly Savalas]

39. Americans love an underdog...

so middle aged, white, Christian males are going to identify themselves as such no matter how ridiculous it is. They'll find every tiny shred of evidence they can to support this claim, and the have the help of right-wing sociopaths like Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity to back them up.

This "downhome unpretentious conservative vs. elitist liberal" meme is probably hurting our cause more than any other idea out there. Personality will possibly play a bigger role than policy in the struggle to win our country back. The sooner we convince such people that the ones looking out for their interests aren't a bunch of dickweeds from the energy industry, but rather us, the sooner we'll be running all branches of government again. In the long run this can be acheived by encouraging a more enlightened electorate that carefully weighs the issues when voting, but in the short run we just need to redirect that white male rage at the GOP.

[Lerkfish]

41. I agree its like a 9.5 on the Parlock scale...

[Modem Butterfly]

43. I'm glad someone finally said it

I was beginning to think y'all had lost your minds.

Seriously, thanks. I needed to read that today.

[cally]

44. Do any of the fundies actually read the Bible?

How can any Christian think they are persecuted in this culture? Their concern is that they are thwarted from making Christianity the state religion. Show me where Jesus said he wanted a state religion. His teachings promoted the least powerful among us.

Great post, bake.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

45. Thanks, Bake

:thumbsup:

[Runcible Spoon]

46. well said!

from a nondenominational spiritualist

[Bake]

48. Thanks, all.

I thought I was the only one thinking this. Then I turned off the damn CABLE TV!!!

I'm just sick of this persecution complex they all seem to have. I'm a Christian, and HAPPY TO SAY, no one is persecuting me. Not even the atheists at DU! :-) (Don't flame me. It's a joke! Smile!)

Bake