Can we talk about censorship?

[LWolf]

I am a former library professional turned elementary school teacher; "raised" by the ALA, I'm a staunch opponent of censorship who has learned to compromise in an elementary school setting, where you leave many issues undiscussed in order to respect parents' rights to teach their own pov to the very young.

I'm not one of those literalists who can find no gray area, or never see the other side; and I have my hot buttons when it comes to freedom of expression. There are things out there that I would censor in a moment, because I believe they are harmful. Usually, though, I can separate emotion from the issue and remember that just because I don't like it, doesn't mean that the rest of the world has to agree.

My biggest hot-button has always been music. Music with what I consider to be hate lyrics. I also have an adult musician son who keeps me on the straight and narrow if I step over the line; regularly debating freedom of expression vs harmful effect with him has helped to keep me more moderate on this issue.

Until this morning, when I read the following article, and checked out the website involved. This one crosses the point of no return for me.

We have all recognized the blatant and subliminal power of the media to influence the attention and direction of the public. We've seen the political effects. Is the following campaign really ok? Am I wrong to be outraged? When does freedom of expression reach its limit? For me, the limit has been reached when hate enters the conversation.

Here's the article; WARNING--GRAPHICALLY HATEFUL LYRICS:

PROJECT SCHOOLYARD USA: CD Offers Hate Music to Youth

http://www.tolerance.org/news/article_tol.jsp?id=1075

<snip>

PANZERFAUST: WE DON'T JUST ENTERTAIN RACIST KIDS... WE CREATE THEM.

Using that slogan — and its most effective recruiting tool — Panzerfaust Records, a Minnesota-based white-power music company, says it plans to ship 100,000 hate-music CD samplers across the country, targeting white youth ages 13 to 19.

The campaign, dubbed "Project Schoolyard USA," is nothing more than racist and anti-Semitic hate masquerading as alternative music. One endorsement for the project, for example, says "white children need a beacon of hope so they know they can rise instead of letting themselves slip into the Jew-sponsored cesspool of nigger anti-culture."

According to its website, Panzerfaust designed the CD with "the most mainstream appeal," targeting "white kids who are sick of the failed social experiment of multiculturalism" or of living in "dirty, dangerous and foreign" neighborhoods.

What does Panzerfaust consider "mainstream?" Consider lyrics from some of the songs on the CD, which features more than a dozen white-power bands:

See our Fuhrer's dream
To break the back of the eternal Jew
Rid the world of the evil we've seen
Make it safe for me and you.
— "Under the Hammer" by Brutal Attack

Whiskey bottles
Baseball bats
Pickup trucks
And rebel flags
We're going on the town tonight
Hit and run
Let's have some fun
We've got jigaboos on the run
And they fear the setting sun.
— "Jigrun" by The Bully Boys

Damn the other races
Want to keep my country White.
— "Parasite" by Fortress

more: http://www.tolerance.org/news/article_tol.jsp?id=1075

And the offending website:

Edited to remove the link; you can google the name of the company and find it easily.

[MercutioATC]

1. No, that's not an appropriate topic. Stop now.

:P

[LWolf]

6. lol

We can talk about whatever I want to talk about.

We just can't talk about your pet topics. ;-)

[Ian David]

2. Freedom of speech stops at incitement to violence

Lwolf,

Would you want music distributed that says:

See our Fuhrer's dream
To break the back of the eternal Lwolf

We've got Lwolf on the run
And Lwolf fears the setting sun.

Damn Lwolf
Want to keep my country White.

Of course, substitute your real name in place of your screen name.

I think you would be right in condemning it.

[MadHound]

10. Then you would have put a clamp on the following people.

Malcolm X, Bobby Seale, The Weathermen, Huey Newton, Eldrige Cleaver, Tom Paine, Sam Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Eugene Debbs, Mother Jones, Woody Guthrie, Jack London, Upton Sinclair, Sinclair Lewis, and many many others too numerous to mention.

I agree, these lyrics are very hateful, I am not condoning them. But these types of lyrics from white power bands have been around for the past twenty years, and I don't think we have suffered as a society. Freedom of speech means freedom for everybody, not just those we agree with. If we limit the speech of those on the radical right, we will be cutting off our own freedom of speech, and Lord knows, we need that freedom now more than ever.

Freedom of speech is a risk. It requires that our society puts trust in individuals that they will listen to this speech and decide for themselves whether or not this idea being spoken is valid. For the vast majority of our history, that trust has been well placed, and we should continue to put our faith in the people of this country. Yes, it is hateful and hurtful, but it is the mouthings of a relatively few nut jobs, and it can be easily be combatted with education, and speech of our own.

Limiting freedom of speech, any sort of speech, is a bad idea. If you afraid that your children will follow these Pied Pipers, talk with them, tell them what these people really stand for, and trust that they will do the right thing. After all, they are your children, who do you think they will listen more closely to, you, their parents, or some little known white power punks who play bad music?

[LWolf]

12. This is a great argument against censorship;

I agree with it.

Beyond the hate lyrics themselves, what about the stated "campaign" to turn other people's kids into racists?

That goes beyond entertainment of choice to overt recruiting. Should that sort of recruiting be limited?

[MadHound]

14. No, for once again you would have to restrict those on the left also

I can't see a white power coming onto a school playground and passing out copies of these CDs, for the school authorities don't allow any outsiders to come onto school property. So that limits matters to direct mail and by word of mouth/passing hand to hand. If a parent is in any way tuned into what their kids are doing, they will quickly realize what is going on, and can take action to prevent further damage.

When I was nine, I became politized by the Vietnam war. My partents realized what was going on, and had a long talk with me. They weren't against what I was protesting so much, but were more concerned with the other tangental forces swirling around the anti-war movement, drugs, sex, strangers in general, and expressed their concerns. I wound up being very political throughout my teens, didn't get involved in drugs, and was a good student. If a parent finds out about these CDs being distributed, they can talk with their child and tell them exactly what these hatemongers are peddling. The same with gangsta-rap and other offensive, hateful music.

I just shudder at the thought of people who, for the best of intentions, think that censorship is the best way to control what their children hear. Yes, you can ban what a kid hears inside your own house, that is your right. But to ban such things from the public in general is wrong. It treats us all like helpless infants, and has the unintended consequence of banning good ideas from the left as well.

[AG78]

3. No, we can't

Wait, that's censor...

Humanity is a freak show. That's my only answer.

"a Minnesota-based white-power music company"
"the Jew-sponsored cesspool of nigger anti-culture"
"See our Fuhrer's dream"
"Want to keep my country White"

You can't make things like that up. Only a sick ass species would imagine those words put together in a sentence. Humans are odd. Total freak show.

I'm still holding out for that asteroid. Why did the dinosaurs get so damn lucky? Who did they sleep with?

[madrchsod]

4. you can`t link to hate websites

i found that out...yes this site and the music is really sick but i used to work with a kid who believed this stuff. a couple of guys and i always wondered why he was like that then we found out his dad was just as bad. oh yes he went to a christian high school. he is a very nice guy but his views of the world is like a child that is afraid of the dark.

[LWolf]

5. Good point.

I've edited the link; it can be found easily enough for those with a strong stomach.

[TalkingDog]

7. Only one question.

If they were lyrics by African Americans or any other race (besides Caucasian) with EXACTLY the same lyrics...obviously substituting culturally appropriate information, would you suggest censoring it?

If you say no, you are not only censoring prejudicially, you are showing signs of having problems with people based on their racial background.

Liberal White Guilt is a hard thing to put aside. But if you suggest any difference in the way people are treated based on race (or any other factor) then you are unintentionally harming all other groups.

For instance: Handicapped stalls in bathrooms. My logic is if a stall is open, even a handicapped accessible one, I'm going to use it. A friend disagrees, suggesting that a handicapped person might come in while I'm in there.

My question is then: Do handicapped people want to be treated differently than everyone else? Any rational person, even a handicapped one, will tell you that they want to be treated exactly the same as everyone else. Well, I'm treated them the same way I would treat anyone. If a person came in that was in dire need of a stall, I would make allowances for them, handicapped or not.

Do you want to treat African American musical artists differently than everyone else? If you treat them differently, either in a negative or positive fashion, you are "othering" them, by setting them apart. Othering by positive preference is patronizing to the preferred group and prejudicial to the non-preferred group.

But of course that's just my worldview.

[Bridget Burke]

8. You're right about the handicapped stalls....

Gosh, you've picked up on the "other."

This thread is about a very specific CD that the OP found offensive. So do I. He didn't say EXACTLY what he meant by censoring. "Not in my school library" or "not in my house" is probably what he meant. And he wanted people to know about a movement to preach this crap to young people.

Where did he mention African-Americans?

[TalkingDog]

15. Clarification.

"Where did he mention African-Americans?"

He didn't. But I often hear the same arguments used to talk about censoring African-American rap, hip-hop, gangsta rap and so on. Quite a lot of that music is filled with hate speech. Sometimes against other races, but against women in particular. (Interestingly there doesn't seem to be the same reactions to Caucasian rap/hip-hop/gangsta rap artists even though their lyrics are practically identical.)

I find those lyrics offensive, just as I do with the ones presented here. So I wouldn't listen to any of it, nor would I allow it in my house as I believe in the computer-geek adage: GIGO or Garbage in, Garbage out.

My understanding of the question was: Within my household, if I don't censor other hate-full music by or against other cultural/ethnic groups, should I censor this one?

My answer is NO. Not if you want to be a consistant, critical thinker without overt favoritism slanted toward thematically similar groups to the exclusion of this one. (which by definition is biased behaviour)

"Gosh, you've picked up on the "other"."

I don't understand your point here. Unless you are being condescending or sarcastic. Even if that is not the case, your intention is vague and unclear. Perhaps you need to flesh out your ideas with emoticons.

[LWolf]

11. I'll clarify:

My issue is hate. It has nothing to do with the race of the hater, but with the hate itself.

This particular hate takes the form of racism. This is not just about music glorifying something hateful; it's about a campaign to spread hate to people's kids.

I don't think this campaign is ok.

Music lyrics that glorify hateful things are an on-going issue.
This is exactly the ongoing debate over music I've had with my son; over music my students listen to, and talk about, that, imo, glorify hate. Lyrics that demean women and glorify violence. Music that is written and performed by non-whites. When I hear my kids singing or chanting these lyrics at recess, I'm concerned.

My family debate always centers on "censorship by choice," and "censorship with the dollar." Which works for adults, if enough choose to do so. It doesn't necessarily work for kids at school. You can censor hate music from your kids' choices at home, but if that's what everybody at school is listening to and singing, they're going to get it anyway. While some kids are self-confident enough not to need to "join in" because "that's what everybody likes," many are not.

[TalkingDog]

16. I missed a point or two in your first post

But I was actually headed out the door and should have read more carefully.

So essentially we are on the same page.

We have become a Nanny State. Many people want the government to set limits on what can be produced, so the won't have to have the difficult discussions that you and your son obviously engage in.

"Think for me so I won't have to." "Tell me what my kids can listen to." and so on.

Before I went to graduate school I worked in the local library. I had an irate mother come in and tell me we should not allow young people to check out certain books. Her 12 year old had just read "Go Ask Alice" and she had not had a chance to "preview" it.

Needless to say, she was not happy. She argued that her child was a voracious reader and she, as a mother, could not keep up with previewing everything her daughter read. I argued that nobody wanted the government dictating what they or their children should read. The discussion became rather heated when I finally said: "It comes down to this: You raised your child with certain morals and ethics. Either you taught her well and they took, or they didn't. You just have to trust her and trust what you've taught her."

Putting the responsibility back on her seemed to set her gears to churning and she left.

I think what you are expressing concern about is the parents who don't give their children a strong ethical or moral foundation. But as Frank Zappa said in his discussions with the "Tipper Gore Committee" (I'm paraphrasing here): How will your child know to avoid the perverts, if she doesn't who the perverts are and what they do?"

[SmokingJacket]

9. Fact is, kids aren't fully autonomous people.

If you don't let your kid listen to this stuff, that's not censorship: it's parenting. If you don't let *other* people's kids listen to it... well, that might be censorship, but I'd interpret it as community parenting. If someone's else's kid is about to dart into the street, I have an obligation to stop him, even if the parents don't give a shit.

I am a hearty supporter of the First Amendment. This stuff makes me vomit, but if an adult wants to listen to it, I support their right to (though if they drove through a black or Jewish neighborhood blasting it from their speakers, they should be arrested for threatening and inciting violence). But I don't have to support the right of children to listen to it. I think it's FAR worse for children than pornography.

[K-W]

13. I fear censorship far more than I fear these words.

These attitudes and beliefs are part of the world we live in and you dont do children any favors by pretending they aren't.

[Thurgood Marshall]

17. Don't censor the response

You can't censor it because it sets a precedent. This is the slippery slope that started the whole PC, "I'm offended" nonsense and the backlash caused by it.


What troubles me is it is difficult to openly comment accurately on this trash without being sued by some idiot lawyer for telling the truth.

If I want to publicly announce that the people who made these are racist, ignorant, pre-evolutionary primates only slightly more intelligent than a lampshade who need to single out others to convince themselves their pathetic, wife-beating, meth-using, criminal lives aren't a complete embarassment to any real American...then I should have the freedom to do so without some lawyer chasing after me.

Let 'em hate. Let me (and everyone else) call 'em what they are.