DU women - please explain to me what Paternalism feels like.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

Seriously.

[MsTryska]

1. may i ask you a question?

are you a minority?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

3. what does that have to do with it?

Women are a majority

[Cheswick2.0]

6. yes but they are treated like a minority by those in power

who are still overwhelmingly men and in particular white men.

Paternalism feels being treated like a children by a person or a group and having to go along to get along or fight it and struggle.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

13. Ok - now that makes sense

I'm feeling that

[leesa]

122. Exactly right. If you are a minority, you know exactly what it feels

like because you are also victims of paternalism. Of course women also get to deal with the double workload common with women...outside home work and massive at-home work that many men seem able to avoid.

[MsTryska]

12. What Cheswick said.....

i was thinking if you were a minority male, you would understand the feeling much better once i started explaining.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

14. I figured that that was what you meant

I was playing hard to get as it were :)

[MsTryska]

24. *lol* hard to get never works with me.

but yeah - it's like being treated like a child.

here's a perfect example....


i lift weights. heavy weights. but there is always soem guy ready to "help me" pull off those big heavy plates he just squatted with.


never mind that i was actually planning on throwing some more weight on the bar.


to warm up with.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

47. Ha!

I think its an inbred thing :)

[prodigal_green]

71. Yo iron sister!

what's your squat max? I just rock-bottomed 275. I've paralleled 355 before, but I hurt my back (cleaning my apartment believe it or not) so I've been working my way back up.

A former trainer never helped me increase strength, so I dumped him. The guy I have now is really knowledgeable and brags to his other clients how strong I am.

[MsTryska]

116. sup prodigal green?

you are a lot stronger than me. my all time ATF high is 225. I don't know what i could do parallel, but even 225 more than what most of the guys in my gym do in general. Usually they just have a plate on each side, and do a lot of goraning until they get parallel. and then act like they've done soemthing. i wish they'd just use the smith machine and leave the rack free.


i'm injured at the moment too - screwed up my back doing deadlifts - and oddly enough my dead is a lot lower than my squat. but i just started doing them before i got hurt.

[American Tragedy]

144. There is a difference between mathematical minority and sociological

minority.

Sociologists define a minority as a group of people that is subjected to differential treatment, particularly denial of privilege or power, regardless of how many of them there may be relative to the majority population. That is why the black population of South Africa was called a minority during apartheid, even though they outnumbered whites.

[Spazito]

2. Paternalism feels, to me, like being patted on the head, like a puppy,

for not peeing on the carpet.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

4. Like just "not causing trouble" is a good thing

how demeaning

[China_cat]

Do you remember when you were a child

and you wanted to do something that was normally reserved for adults but you were sure you could do?(Not talking about driving or anything like that...more like using power tools or being allowed to go off the high dive.) And your parents would pat you on the head and maybe smile at your request and tell you that you aren't ready for that? Or they'd just smile over your head at your request.

That's what it feels like. So many times we are either told outright that we're 'not ready for that yet' or it is strongly implied in an 'isn't that cute, she thinks she can ________'.

[On the Road]

5. There, There, Chavez,

don't worry your little head about it. You wouldn't understand anyway.

[Mandate My Ass]

10. Perfect

answer.

[Susang]

11. Exactly.

;-)

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

15. Ahh- now THAT I get. Is that what its really like?

Ugggh!

:puke:

[Susang]

21. That's exactly what it's like

I've had men take tools out of my hands and proceed to fix the thing I was fixing for me, without asking me, as if I was incapable of using a hammer or screwdriver because I have a vagina and breasts.

It is compounded by their attitude that because I'm female, I shouldn't want to do those things in the first place, so no insult has taken place.

[prodigal_green]

72. Hardware stores

I HATE going into hardware stores and asking for a part for something. Invariably, I'm asked "what do you need it for?" What the hell difference does it make? The fact that I knew enough to ask for a specific part, not "some doohicky twisty thing" should indicate that I probably know what I'm doing.

[Clark2008]

77. Or car lots

and the guy keeps looking for your father and/or husband/boyfriend.

I one guy who kept talking to my then boyfriend. I finally reached over the desk, turned his head to me and said, "It's my money. My car and I won't be buying it from you."

[knitter4democracy]

119. Good for you!

They only finally take me seriously when I explain that my dad's an engineer, my brother's an engineer who used to design for Ford (now building his own dirtbikes--the only dirtbikes made here in the States), and that I grew up having to help fix all kinds of stuff.

Odd, how I have to show them that men taught me to know engines and all before they treat me well. Grrr!

[Karenina]

128. Almost ALL the "girls" I know

who have been successful in the music biz have Alpha males (relatives or SO's) doing the +positive+ paternalism thing. Please read my post #126.

Ignore your Dad and do what YOU want. He's scared of your potential and needs an ass-kicking. Send him this message from me:

DIMWIT!!! :spank: Don't you DARE patronize your daughter! :spank:
YOU SUPPORT WHAT SHE WANTS FOR HERSELF OR I'LL KICK YOUR ASS FROM ACROSS THE BIG POND!!! :spank: :spank: :spank:

[knitter4democracy]

150. Thank you!

I already told him off (for that and many, many other things), and he had the gall to deny every saying it. Grr! Yeah, I'm the crazy one who just makes random shit up . . .

My husband was more angry than I was, actually, given that I must be more used to it. He turned beet red when I told him and took awhile to cool down. He doesn't like anyone telling me what to do, not even him. :)

[progmom]

170. Last car I bought...

The salesman asked, patronizingly, before he asked any other questions: "What color car do you think you want?"

I said: "Well, I honestly don't care a whit about the color. What's important is that I get the 3.8 liter, not the 3.3 liter. And the K package of options, please. And if you can do that for me for zero down and under $300 a month, then maybe, just maybe, you'll get me in a new car today."

[atommom]

176. I remember once, in college, dropping by a used-car lot with my mom.

The salesman was nice, but patronizing. I cut him off after he popped a car's hood and said, "Now of course you ladies don't care about this, but this engine is ..." :eyes: I think I embarrassed my mother, but c'est la vie. It was her fault, after all, for teaching me to have a mind of my own.

[hfojvt]

81. That's kinda ironic

Most of the women I have worked with have either insisted or taken it for granted that I would do the heavy lifting even though I am a "100 pound weakling".
I do not think what you are experiencing there is paternalism so much as it is a very basic male desire to be a "knight in shining armor" and thus winning the approval of the fair maiden.
I am not sure if I would find in limiting or insulting if other men were willing to do my work for me. My female friend was never insulted when I did the dishes.

[Spazito]

82. Wow, perfect example of paternalism!

You did mean it as an example, didn't you? Please say you did!

[Niccolo_Macchiavelli]

169. what's wrong with a trying to be knightly (NOT KKKnightly)

It's some minor sort of the art of minstrels, which is actually not (meant to) be degrading. It's actually reaching up not down.

a well give equal time and you are impolite (to some), try be polite and your a chauvi (to some). it'll be wrong anyway.

but other than that equal pay and fair promotion/employ on high levels are still a sore issue in Europe as well. Of course mandatory military/civil sec/social service for women is absent as well(usually thats where equal rights/duties halt with many feminists here).

still much work to do and it won't be right for everyone. never.

[Nobody]

88. When I weighed 100 pounds

I could carry 80 pounds across a room. I'm not in such good shape now, but I loved seeing the reactions I got from people when a woman with a body like a famine victim could carry that much weight.

None of the men dared patronize me. But I broke my arm and it wreaked havoc with my strength.

I can still lift 75 pounds and I've put on more weight, some of which I needed to.

I don't mind help, just ask first. And if I don't think I can do something by myself, I'll ask for help from whomever's nearby and not obviously busy.

[catzies]

79. Yeah, that's what it's like. Now go get me a beer, I'm watching the game

*pats Chavez's butt on his way to the kitchen to fetch me my beer*

:evilgrin:

[Cadence]

37. Hit it on the head. n/t

[redqueen]

133. Bravo!

:thumbsup:

[Me.]

7. Insufferable

& arrogant.

[Solly Mack]

8. Now why concern yourself with matters you aren't suited for?

Best you kept to the things you can do and leave the important stuff to us.

(that)

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

16. Oh good Lord!

:scared:

[Solly Mack]

18. and people wonder why we get so angry

:)

[MountainLaurel]

91. But we're not allowed to get angry

'Cause the first thing anyone says is:

"Bet she's on the rag today."

[Solly Mack]

96. ain't that the gospel

don't get "hysterical"

never mind it's appropriate anger for a legitimate reason...it's always "hysterical" or don't "overreact"

[Greylyn58]

100. That's another thing

that really makes me want to scream...

Why is it that when a man is demanding and driven he's considered "Strong", but when a woman displays this same attitude she's called a "Bitch"

I really despise that!

:grr:

[Solly Mack]

104. and then there's the stud/slut double standard

Men are studs...women are sluts

men's sexuality = good, "normal" and "to be expected"
women's sexuality = bad, abnormal and not what a "good" woman does

[redqueen]

135. Yes - studs = good, sluts = bad

Gee, anyone think all these things we're complaining about have anything to do with men CONTROLLING women? (or at least trying to maintain control... GRR)

[redqueen]

134. Yes, we must raise females to 'be nice'.

That's all that matters when hosting dinner parties and raising kids, you know.

[Solly Mack]

140. Otherwise it would muss up our hair, don't ya know

[rockymountaindem]

26. Is it really like that?

As a man I can't say for sure, but I've never been exposed to someone being treated like that reguardless of gender or race. I'm not doubting you, I'm just wondering how often that sort of thing happens?

[Solly Mack]

28. Yes, it's just like that . There are many examples in this thread

as well.

Happens more than you'd imagine. In small ways, in little ways.

Starts when we are young. We get it from adults, teachers, peers...

Some women even get it from their parents. I was fortunate. My mother was a feminist and I come from a long line of strong women.

subtle (and not so subtle) little attacks that somehow tell us "girls aren't good enough" for________ (fill in the blank)

catch-phrases meant to put us in our place and keep us there.

[rockymountaindem]

30. Does it occur primarily when you are young?

I guess I just have a hard time understanding it... I've never really seen it happening.

[Solly Mack]

34. No. Happens throughout our life

It's just when you're young you have fewer defenses for countering it.

Being more impressionable, it makes a bigger impact on your life.

[Orangepeel]

69. it can be easy to miss if it isn't happening to you

say you are a woman hired the same time as a male colleague. Your boss assigns him to deal with an important client and you to plan the holiday party.

Each little incident is not much by itself, but what if it happens all the time? It's a problem for the woman in question, but why would you even notice if you weren't her? The boss himself may not even notice that's he's always assigning the trivial, no reward, "girlie" tasks to female employees (and it may be "the boss herself", unfortunatey -- woman raised in a paternalistic society soak up the same attitudes as men).

It can be a real problem for a woman. She can (and should) volunteer to take on important assignments, but she's still probably going to be asked to plan the party. She can refuse, of course, on the basis that she is busy with important tasks. But turning down a request from your boss has its own risks, and refusing to do what seems like a minor task can seem petty and put your boss on the defensive for asking.

[MissB]

110. Goodness no.

For me, I certainly ran into it all through my schooling (well into college). I also managed to end up in a career that put me in the field with middle-aged good ole' white guys.

I have to say that things seemed to improve in college. I started my education in 1988. It was hell. I left a little more than a year later. When I returned in 1993, the whole climate had changed. I ended up being the first woman at my university to be the head of the student chapter of the engineering society. By the time I graduated in 1996, I felt empowered.

[Karenina]

125. Ah, those "windows of opportunity..."

Those who pass through one are indeed blessed. However, it annoys me that we have to fight the SAME BATTLES over and over and over and over....

[Randers]

148. I think I just figured something out

about my dad.

Growing up he never seemed to expect his daughters to support themselves. It was like if we did good in school that was nice - but it didn't matter - but it mattered if my brother messed up. He gave his son a lot of support - 3 cars (while he was in college) for instance - me none.

He would also help my unmarried sister (with kids) out - so she was a bit better off financially than another (married) sister- because my dad would never help out any of us who were married - because that would be stepping on the toes of our husbands (at least that is what I'm thinking).

[Midlodemocrat]

35. Well, for example

at my little girl's school, where I spend a lot of time and money for volunteering, the Principal made a comment that "Northern Men can't control their women". Now this is not a southern bashing statement, because frankly the statement is just as offensive the other way around.

Never mind that I have way more education that this jerk, or make twice what he does, he has no regard for me or my husband, because my husband doesn't, can't or won't control me.

[Solly Mack]

40. As if it were your husbands job to control you

That somehow you're even out of control because you don't fit that jerks idea of how women should "behave."

I've run into that thinking a lot.

[Midlodemocrat]

49. I know. It is so ridiculous.

That just because this guy and I don't see eye to eye, that I am out of control. I have a PhD for Christ's sakes, and I volunteer all the time. I am certainly not a threat to him or the school.

I was PTA president for a while, but couldn't take it anymore. The pressures they put on children, little children, just had me coming apart at the seams. His new assistant principal is an even bigger jerk, who gave me a hard time about not attending a program at the school. Never mind that I have been to the same program about a dozen times and that I was running late and that it is none of his business. I got an apology from the county because of his outrageous behavior and he got a warning to give me a wide berth.

It is so funny the pre-conceived notions that people have about people just because they are different. I dress very casually, I am very funny, have lots of friends and generally don't take too many things all that seriously, except when it comes to my children.

I gave this clown a copy of Hillary's book, It Takes a Village and all he got out of it was that the government was interfering too much in the way we were raising our kids. I had to explain the whole concept to him. and he is concerned about me. Sheeesh.

Thanks for the letting me rant. :hi:

[CAcyclist]

44. See my other post

I've also walked into an exam room and had people say to me in a disappointed or angry voice: "When I heard your name, I thought you were going to be a man."

Or they'll insist on calling me the nurse, even after they are corrected by the owner (a man) that I am the doctor.

Or they'll say, "I want the man doctor"

Or they'll say"Are you the doctor? Are you going to do surgery on my dog?"

Or they'll make comments on my attractiveness or youthfulness, which is inappropriate in a professional setting and I don't ever hear people commenting to the male vets how cute they are or how young they look. One of the reasons I deliberately let my hair go grey.

[knitter4democracy]

120. My dad told me I'd never be able to handle my own shop

Yeah, he went on and on how my brother can run his own multi-million dollar company but I should just stick to what I'm good at--being a stay-at-home mom.

And he wonders why I don't call very often . . .

[Karenina]

132. Don't let that shit in!

I KNOW it's hard. :hug: But it's nothing more than negative suggestion and attempt to "put you under the thumb" as we say here.

Another example of +positive+ paternalism (GO where the contact is GOOD, girlfriend, blow everyone else OFF):

Some years ago I was an obssessive compulsive ice skating diletante. As I was getting off the ice one day I ran into a friend (Olympic gold medalist) and was JUST SO EXCITED I'd gotten every one of my single jumps DOWN that day. I start babbling all enthusiastic and tell him my goal. Boyfriend knew my age (over a decade older than he) and says to me stroking my cheek just like he did his 8 yr old students, "Karenina, that's SO GREAT! Don't EVER let ANYONE tell you what you CAN'T do."

Didn't take long for me to scale down my expectations of my adult body. THEN I realized MY "goal" wasn't in HIS repertoire. What a PRINCE!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

9. but you are such a pretty girl, why do you care about enron?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

17. Man oh man

That sucks hard core.

So what's the answer? Fuck you?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

19. because while i am prettier than you I am also WAY more intelligent

and fairly well educated

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

41. I think that works

:thumbsup:

[FizzFuzz]

107. tee hee, that's a good one! I'll have to remember that!

Oh, yeah I forgot I'm past the age where I'd get that kind of comment--See, as a woman, you're cute but dismissable when you're young.

Then you're a mommy and have some very limited "power" or are attention-worthy or something in the eyes of society for a short time (I am guessing here, I can't stand kids always hated the stereotypes expecting me to live for the day I breed),

then, you are "old" --remember being judged "old" for a woman comes sooner than it does for a man---

and willfully ignored. It's weird to be consciously experiencing this. The change in how passers-by or clients relate to me over the years is noticeable.

[Just Me]

20. It feels degrading and insulting and punitive.

You're "good" if you know your place and you're "bad" if you assert yourself as an equal partner in this life.

[bleedingheart]

22. being treated like a pet....

I recall an uncle that told me..."men don't like smart girls"...in his opinion women are for sex, baby production, meal making and keeping the house clean.

Lucky for me my mother thought differently

[China_cat]

36. Quite a few men

view women as life support systems for tits and ass.

[redqueen]

136. "Men Just Want Mommy"

Anyone else read that editorial?

Made me rethink the 'men don't like smart girls' line...

http://www.insidebayarea.com/oaklandtribune/oped/ci_2524757

[Eloriel]

156. My dad told me that once upon a time

(1962 or 3, probably) and I thought to myself: Then I'll just have to find a better class of boyfriends.

Or do without.

[TalkingDog]

23. Oh Chavez, you're too pretty not to have a smile on your face.

Don't think too hard, you'll get wrinkles. Why are you worrying about all this hard stuff for, anyway?

About 10 years of this type of daily brainwashing and you will have long since developed a sense of learned helplessness. You obviously can't do anything or they would let you.

You stopped feeling angry and defensive about it years ago. Now to deal with the external messages and the internal contradiction you just develop food addictions, shopping addictions, body obsessions...anything that you, personally, have some control over.

Luckily I was "allowed" to be a tom-boy (the acceptable outlet for female apptitude) and didn't get quite so sucked in as other,less fortunate, women.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

43. Good God. Is it REALLY like this? Fucking A

You all grow up feeling this way?

[Solly Mack]

48. Women have even been told it's our fault men rape

See, if we didn't work and emasculate a man, he wouldn't rape women. The thinking being, we work and compete with men, so that emasculates them.

This has actually been said. A guy in my hometown usta write such letters to the editor monthly on why it's our fault for usurping a mans role.

If we would just keep to our place, nothing bad would ever happen to us.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

66. You're right

and it's unconscionable!

[jmm]

80. You should be flattered he likes you.

Of course he'd want to hit on you, you're so pretty

To make a long story short, a few months ago a male co-worker (who was a few levels up from me at the job) was paying a bit too much attention to me. I let him know a few times I don't mix business with pleasure and was not interested. When he offered to do favors for me such fixing it so I could have a better schedule and work with preferred staff I declined. When he stole my cell phone number and called me one Friday at midnight asking how is my girl doing I told him where to go and what he can do to himself when he gets there. I spoke to human resources that Monday morning. They handled it well but I got a lot of bad reactions from other staff member when they found out the extent of what had happened.

My job is difficult enough without having people tell me I should take constant unwanted advances and late night calls with a smile. No I am not flattered when someone refused to answer how he got my phone number but instead asks what I'm wearing. And I am not flattered when I'm told he just couldn't help himself and if I didn't look so cute or dress so pretty... I could wear a burka and I'm sure I'd come across some shameless man who blaims his lack of self control of my nice eyes.

[Solly Mack]

105. Yep..the old it's your fault because he can't help himself

also the it's up to women to help men behave

[TalkingDog]

56. Well, maybe not all of us. Ann Coulter doesn't seem to have a problem.

Nor does Phillis Schlafly who is quoted with such gems as:

"It's very healthy for a young girl to be deterred from promiscuity by fear of contracting a painful, incurable disease, or cervical cancer, or sterility, or the likelihood of giving birth to a dead, blind, or brain-damage baby even ten years later when she may be happily married."

and

"Sex education classes are like in-home sales parties for abortions."

Some women accept their lot because society tells them to. Or the Bible. Some women actually like not thinking for themselves. (that works for both genders, btw)

So no, we don't all grow up feeling this way. But many, many of us do.
And pharmaceutical companies, diet-book writers, make-up companies, plastic surgeons and psychotherapists are raking in the bucks... why, it's a cottage industry.

Edited to properly credit Ms. Schlafly.

[gollygee]

59. As long as women say what men want to hear

they're fine.

[prodigal_green]

73. Yeah, but even Ann Coulter

has to dress in her version of "sexy" to get any attention for her lunatic ideas.

[Me.]

70. Good Recent Public Example

"President of Harvard" shooting his big fat, dumb assed mouth off about women.

[Eloriel]

157. Chavez-- yes, it is that bad

And NO woman in this society escapes it ecause it's all-pervasive, tho everyone's personal experience of it is different and everyone handles it differently.

Here's an example from my own life. When I was a senior in h.s. (1965) I was offered a full music college scholarship and some other perks but I had to initially turn it down (and I NEEDED that financial help SO bad) because I couldn't major in music -- I couldn't major in music because women couldn't get hired in the better, bigger symphonies or admitted in the musician's unions, and teaching music was NOT an option for me (dishwashing was a more attractive carerr option).

Now, that's bad enough but here's the worst part: IT DIDN'T OCCUR TO ME OR OTHERS TO QUESTION OR FIGHT THAT!! (N.O.W. got started a few years later.) All of that was "just the way things were." There were things women could do, tho not all that many, and things they couldn't. :shrug: Just life.

Sometime later, in the late 1970s, I happened to see a feature segment on 60 Minutes or similar program showing how women and men were being auditioned at one of the West Coast symphonies, and they were auditioning behind screens so all those years of accumulated internal bias which insisted women weren't as good as men as musicions couldn't be held against them. It was quite a poignant experience for me. I had loved music, loved being a musician. Fortunately, I had other talents. But I often wonder how my life would have turned out had I not had to choose a different career -- I'd have known different people and probably had "artsier" friends, lived somewhere else, probably married someone else.

[ruthg]

85. There ya go.. That is just about it. NT

[Scout]

112. Tomboys make the best women!

IMHO anyway, girls who are tomboys (I hate that term) grow up to be more "normal" women than the girly-girls. The g-g's turn into those high maintenance women that all the men want (because they want to fuck them) but once the man actually HAS her for a while, he can't stand her except for the sex.

[Nobody]

115. And I'd like to add....

That even if you do limit yourself to what you've been told all your life is "feminine" you learn quickly that you're still of little value.

Ever see the studies done back in the 70s where people were asked what traits a healthy woman had, a healthy man had, and a healthy person (sex unspecified) had? The list of traits for men and people in general were nearly identical. Things that make you go Hmmmmmmmm.

[Maat]

25. "Honey, it's a man's world. Women can't be lawyers."

"You're made to be gentle and have babies. You're going to have trouble being logical."

"Don't try to resist. You'll learn. A man's not going to marry you if you talk that way."

"Men won't marry women who want a career. You'll never be able to have children."

"I'm sending you to fashion school. Quit trying to learn math and languages. It won't help you. You need to improve your posture."

"Don't you want to quit your job and just stay home!"

"Watch it. You're getting fat. Your body's more important than graduating from law school."

An African-American male friend told me, "You don't know what it is like to be oppressed." I responded, "I was only granted the right to make decisions regarding my property in 1975!" He said, "That's different."



I find it kind of ironic. It was my mother who told me that I would never find a man (mate) - because of my attitude, especially a spouse. She's never had a steady relationship, and I've been with the same guy for 28 years! Go figure (I guess he likes an uppity woman)!

[prairierose]

27. Don't forget sexual harrassment...

"honey, get me a cup of coffee" "my girl will call your girl" "Oh, honey, you don't want to be a Dr (Lawyer, Professor, whatever), men don't like smart girls.

I have had jobs where I was hired solely because I was a woman, to show how progressive that company was but treated as a stupid child. I have had male bosses who had no idea what went on in their dept because all the women who did the actual work were the only ones who cared enough to know what actually went on there. I have had male bosses who tried to explain something to me but were astonished that I knew more than they did (that job didn't last long).

I have been passed over for promotion because there was some man who "needed to support his family" forget that he was not as qualified or experienced as I was. I have had friends in the same position who had children to support by themselves but that had less importance. I can't tell you how many single mothers are passed over for promotion and given that reason. They are the sole support of those children but because they are single women, whether divorced or not does not matter. The "moral" judgment goes against them & is then used as a reason to keep them down.

And let us not forget women paid less than men doing the same job. I just love taking a new job & being told, "We don't talk among ourselves about salaries here." That immediately tells me that there is an illegal salary differential that they want no one to discover or discuss.

Growing up in a patriarchal society, we were told our role was to be wives & mothers. Now we can be the sole support of children or if we have a husband, work 2 full time jobs, the one outside the home & the one inside the home.

When I was young and foolish, I thought I would see the day when American women had equal rights. Now that I am so much older and with the changes in this society, for the worse, I do not believe that I will see it in my lifetime.

Here is what it makes me feel now :puke:

[GreenPartyVoter]

29. Chavez!!!!!!!!!! *hugs*

Glad you are back. :D

-----------------------------------------------------------
Save this nation one town, county, and state at a time!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm#why

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

65. Glad to be back!

Thanks

:hug:

[Solly Mack]

31. Hi, ChavezSpeakstheTruth. Thank you for asking this

I truly do appreciate it.

[Spazito]

38. I agree, it is an excellent question!

My thanks and appreciation are added to yours.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

45. I was just wondering. I've been reading about the race wars and the obviou

s question was sitting there in front of me - what about the women? In any race it seems that paternalism is rampant. I know this must seem like the most obvious thing in the world but what's scary is that it is not talked about by men- Ever, it seems.

[Spazito]

55. It is subtle and not so subtle discrimination for sure...

Try buying a car on your own if you are a woman and have to deal with a male salesman. Come to think of it, I have never seen a female car salesperson.

I have had the unpleasant experience twice. If a woman stipulates they aren't into the sales games, want to cut to the quick and get to the bottom line, male salesmen look at you with those 'rolling eyes' whereas when my husband did the same it was respected.

[TalkingDog]

60. Or worse...go into a computer store.

I'm the computer geek. Any upgrades in software or hardware are left to me as I'm the one who can actually get the #*$@ thing to work.

I have literally had sales people (guys usually) walk directly past me in the aisle after I've caught their eye and go to my husband a few feet away.

They get really flummoxed when he points at me. They get even more flummoxed when they see the look in my eye.

Okay...see...now I want to break something. Repressed rage is not a good thing.

[Spazito]

62. Exactly!

The question has brought up all my repressed anger at being treated as 'less than' simply because of my gender.

[Karenina]

124. Mine too.

:hug: Gender and race. I integrated the school system at 6 and was 16 before I encountered another black face in a classroom. Done a LOT of first and only procedures. I call it "the bleeding edge."

Was always told I was too ______ for my own good. :eyes:

Been traipsing around on this tiny, fragile blue marble for a bit over a half century now and please forgive me for saying so very directly,

:grr: MOTHER IS NOT FUCKING AMUSED. REALLY NOT. :grr:

[China_cat]

158. Try being the female computer geek

and in a wheelchair.

Talk about your invisibility potions.

[atommom]

175. Even the idiots at Radio Shack act this way! Last time I went there,

it took me a very long time to get an employee to help me, and then his opening line was, "So, do you know what you want?"

Like I said, it was my LAST visit there. :P

[Taxloss]

32. Some women seem complicit in it.

They do the whole "Oh, I don't know, you decide, men are much cleverer and my ovaries are distracting me" thing. I've never understood that.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

42. umm its easier to join with the powerful....to incur benefits from them

[Taxloss]

What benefits are there to mental slavery?

All this stuff like the "surrendered wife" notion ... it all seems to be based on an utterly flawed cost-benefit analysis. I've seen it in lots of women, and it's creepy and unattractive.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

52. have you seen the kind of criticism feminists endure? even on du?

on edit: not everyone is born to fight. some people want their lives to be pleasant. who can blame them really?

not everyone want to be a bitter jaded person

[Taxloss]

57. I don't think feminism makes you bitter and jaded.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

58. constantly fighting against teh establishment

and making your life harded and enduring criticism for it, does

[CBHagman]

109. That reminds me...

Eons ago, when I was living in South Carolina, one of my closest friends (a native South Carolinian, not a damn Yankee like me) introduced me to some male acquaintance of hers. The three of us got to talking about politics, and I remember the guy lambasting some feminists he knew because they were so angry (I think he used the term "most miserable women you ever met"). I wasn't much of a feminist then, but I remember feeling really angry that he would dismiss someone for BEING angry. I couldn't have put it into words back then, but injustice is not something that puts a silly grin on your face.

Unfortunately, he's a type who lurks throughout the United States, not just south of the Mason-Dixon Line.

[Scout]

114. they do that because they are pussies

they can't/won't even imagine living a life of their own, supporting themselves, making the decisions and living with the consequences.

Those are the kind of women that give the rest of us a bad name. I can't stand them.

[knitter4democracy]

121. Not everyone understands the need to fight if they're fed

If you're taken care of, what's there to get angry about? It's similar to Stockholm Syndrome--oh, he's working so hard to keep our home nice, and yeah, I work hard too, but he's so stressed out . . . I've known doctor's wives who let their husbands step all over them without a word because they like their lives and don't want to rock the boat. I always wonder what it's going to look like when they blow because no one can stay that way forever.

'Course, my hubby wouldn't try anything like that, having been raised by a strong woman and knowing what he was getting into when he married me--I was one of the only feminists at my college.

[Scout]

127. good point

never having been "taken care of" that way by a man (except for my dad when I was child, and we were not well off) I can't identify. My husband is a good man and works hard but like so many other people we can't live on one income.

[knitter4democracy]

153. I try to understand, but that attitude still ticks me off.

My husband supports us, but I supported him in med school, and a lot of the other wives did the same for their husbands. Why they then turn around and let their husbands walk all over them is something I try to understand but still ticks me off. One won't even let her husband do anything at home--not a freakin' thing! So he supposedly studies and researches stuff for his patients (although he admitted to my husband that he's often looking at porn) while she does all the cooking, cleaning, diaper changes, feeding and running after the kids, laundry, you name it. Grr! I have told her over and over again that it's not healthy or even good for him, but she feels he works too hard for him to work at home too. Did I mention that she also has a work-at-home job she does in the middle of the night because she doesn't have any other time to do it? And he wonders why their sex life is nonexistant. . . . The jerk!

[bettyellen]

163. i have a friend who does that-- she just doesn't/ won't make decisions....

plus everything is then his fault.
ick.

[CAcyclist]

33. How About Having A Man Pat You On The Head

When you are a grown woman with a post-grad doctorate degree . And having it happen at your place of business in from of your peers by someone who is present as an inspector.

How's that for paternalism?

[TalkingDog]

39. I would've put up my little begging paws...

and panted at him with my tongue hanging out.

Seriously.

As you can imagine, I'm unemployed....

[CAcyclist]

54. LOL

I wish I'd had the presence of mind to do that. But I was too shocked. And even my co-worker was shocked. I think his mouth was hanging open.

[Karenina]

131. I was a PA at a "jingle house"

did lots of research, client contact, contracting, Roz the bookie taught me everything she knew saying, "The MORE you know the better for ME, I can take a sick day once in awhile and ORDER will prevail."

One day BossMan brought a fluffy blondine client in, for whom I'd had to do a TON o' work as she CLEARLY had NO CLUE. His secretary was present, sitting at the end of the leather couch with her legs hanging out. I'm in a chair with all my documentation in my lap.

"Karenina, how about you getting us all some coffee?"

I stared at him for a moment, put the materials on the floor, stood up and shuffled out rubbing my head.
"Yowsa massa boss, I get it right quick fo y'all."

I returned in English Butler mode and ensured throughout my presentation that everyone's coffee needs were satisfied.

Boss had a red face and veins popping out of his enlarged neck the entire time and when the client left screamed "Don't you EVER do that to me again."

I looked him in the eye and said, "No. Don't YOU ever do that to ME again. Rita is your secretary. Serving refreshments is NOT in MY job description." Then I read him the Riot Act. Nahhh... he didn't fire me, I covered him MUCH too well and knew which side his bread was buttered on. He also never pulled that shit again.

[Spazito]

152. Well done!

It takes standing up to that kind of behavior to change it!

[purji]

123. when I was in labor with my first daughter

The doctor patted me on the head, on the way to wash his hands, and said Do you think you can push sweetheart.I was so pissed off It only took one push,Hubbie had to catch her.

[gollygee]

46. Telemarketer: "Can I speak to the man of the house?"

Because I certainly wouldn't be able to tell him that our house is only 5 years old and doesn't need new windows. No, to understand the complexities of windows requires a y chromosone.

"Yes, dear, of course."

I'm not your dear!!!!

[gollygee]

50. I hate, "Is this the lady of the house?" too

they already have figured out that I am the lady of hte house when they hear my voice. Why do they ask? Do they think that it's flirty or something? I don't get that.

[Solly Mack]

51. I once answered: "No, I'm just robbing the place"

True! :)

[ruthg]

86. Excellent!!! N/t

[NewJeffCT]

53. you mean you don't need a man to do that?

that's sarcasm...

I think my wife would kill me if I made any financial decisions more expensive than a cup of coffee without her.

[Karenina]

126. Sometimes you DO need a man to do that.

There IS a +positive+ side of paternalism which in my experience has been nurturing. Men, usually several generations older, well-known, respected and powerful, upon hearing something come out of my horn or mouth, have "taken me under their wing" and DARED ANYONE to fuck with me in their presence. Not a single one EVER made a sexual overture.
Not. A. One. I lost my daddy to suicide as a child. The men I speak of contributed greatly to what healing I have been able to achieve.

[Just Me]

159. Over the years, I've distinguished a "protector" from a "paternalist".

My experience has been that there are those who protect without being a paternalist.

Both men and women have been "protectors" thoughout my life. The protection they offered arose from a nurturance mode because they valued me. There is nothing "paternalistic" about that. "Paternalism" assumes a form of superiority rather than respect/value of anothers' life (and I might add that I've known both men and women who have been "paternalistic").

Does that make sense? :shrug:

[Karenina]

167. YUP! And I also agree with your

take that it can be projected by either gender.

The word has such a negative connotation in the vernacular, but if you'll be so kind to indulge my strict definition usage I WOULD describe the protection as paternalistic. It's one thing if you speak of a peer, another when referring to someone who is (particularly) much older and W-A-A-A-Y above you in the "hierarchy" (however THAT is defined ;-)).

[prodigal_green]

74. Somebody did that once

I put my dog on the phone (the only male creature that lives there).

[China_cat]

161. When I had my business open

I was looking for phone service. Had my husband call several different places to send me literature about their plans.

Sprint called me one day and wanted to know when I wanted to switch to them. I told them I had evaluated what they offered and decided that they didn't have what I needed. After trying to pressure me into it, the guy finally said "well, maybe you better let me talk to the MAN who owns the business, maybe he'll have a different idea."

I informed that I WAS the owner and the man who had originally called was my secretary.

[noamnety]

61. couple examples

The first from a boss. We were only a couple years apart in age, but when we had a disagreement on an ethics issue, he sat back and said "you remind me of my daughter" (who was in high school, btw). I don't know what he thought my reaction to that would be, I guess I was supposed to ask for a lollipop and the car keys.

I ended up quitting, but first I had a meeting with his supervisor to let her know why. He demanded to go to it. (Nice system there, you couldn't meet with the next up unless you got permission from your own supervisor.) So I told the next up I was quitting over ethics issues and demeaning behavior, and he interrupted to say my decision to quit was "just another example of me making a unilateral decision without consulting first."

I guess me being a woman and all, it really wasn't my place to walk out and make a big life decision like that all on my own without his help.

The other, having been a single homeowner for several years, I have a pretty good tool collection. I've fixed plumbing, I bought my own circular saw and power drill, I reroofed a section of my house. I've done some welding. The basics.

But here I am, married, and if I go into the basement - my husband follows me down there, wanting to know what am I doing, what do I need? It's like the cat hearing the can opener. I love the guy and I like that he fixes things, but jesus christ, I don't need a freaking chaperone to go within 20 feet of my own damn tools.

[TalkingDog]

63. Maybe hubby's got his pron stash down there. n/t

[Nadienne]

78. Hmmm...

Regarding your husband: Society seems to put a lot of pressure on men and their roles in a relationship. Maybe he feels obligated to help out. :shrug:

[noamnety]

98. yep, that's true and I try to remember that

and it's not a huge deal in my life, just a minor annoyance.

But if you want to know what paternalism feels like, that's part of it. If men feel obligated to help out, they should realize the other half of that equation is making women feel like they always need to be helped, like they can't do anything on their own. It's insulting, and it's more tiresome than you can imagine. Once or twice isn't tiresome, but day in, day out, at home and at work, for decades ... it gets old.

[msmcghee]

64. Having spent most of my life as a male . .

. . and the last few years otherwise, I saw a very stark difference once I transitioned that many born women might not notice - having had their "condition" from birth.

One thing that really jumped out at me was that in mixed conversations men often have a tendency to believe that any women present really aren't interested in the "important" things that are being discussed, and therefore, they ignore your presence.

So, you are put in the position of either pushing your way in to be heard, or staying ignored. Just being in that position is demeaning - and makes me irritated enough that I usually decide I don't want to talk to jerks like that anyway.

Much of male conversation consists of posturing. Even though it can be subtle it's usually right out there. Under the words there are dominance transactions taking place. Scores are being tallied like who is smarter?, who has had more experience?, whose opinion is more correct?, etc. It can all be very friendly, with jokes, good comebacks, etc. being the tools of choice.

Women don't use conversation the same way. Woman like the interaction and connecting with each other as much or more as discussing the topic. Women avoid posturing and even insert self-effacing statements occasionally so no-one will think they are. Women will go out of their way not to make someone, say a conservative leaning woman in a group of liberal women, uncomfortable. At least I know liberal women do that.

Men will also avoid a touchy subject at times - but for more practical reasons like avoiding a disagreement. Not because they treasure harmony, which is a different thing.

This is not to say that men never have conversations without challenging each others' status or that women can't be mean and catty - just that the modes of conversation are different.

IMO one reason DU is so valuable is that women (who haven't spent decades of their lives jostling for dominance with males like I have) can assert themselves here as much as they wish. The SUBMIT button is a wonderful advance in equality for all low-status social groups who want their opinions heard.

Step right up ladies, here's your microphone. :yourock:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

67. Fascinating perspective!

Back when I was a college professor, I used to hear some amazingly insulting things from my male colleagues.

Some of us were having lunch in the student center coffee shop, which was right across the hall from the mail room, when one of the young women students got some very good news in a letter--she had been admitted to medical school. She accosted passing friends and shared her good news, and the group of them began crying out with delight and jumping up and down hugging one another.

One of my male colleagues looked up from his sandwich and said, "Those high-pitched voices get on my nerves."

The other men at the table agreed.

Yeah, guys, people with high-pitched voices get into medical school. Welcome to (then) the 1990s.

I felt like saying something about how irritating it is when fraternity guys get drunk and start roaring at one another, in one case, even coming to my apartment complex, where they apparently thought a friend lived (he didn't), and roaring out in the parking lot at 3AM.

But I was not in the mood to be sarcastic that day.

[CAcyclist]

68. Good points. When I discovered the internet, I discovered

that people actually listened to what I had to say.

Part of it was because they didn't know whether I was a man or a woman. When I met many of these people for the first time, several people were surprised that I was a woman and I wasn't trying to hide my sex.

[ruthg]

87. well said...

and welcome to my gender. Glad to have you here!!! You rock!

[demily]

75. an example

Once I was in a technical writing class and we were working on a group project. I was correcting the grammar in our document, and this little piss ant in my group kept questioning my corrections. Even though he was a freshman and I was a junior, even though he was a computer science major and I was an english major, and even though I worked in a writing center which meant that I corrected people's grammar for a living. The only supposed advantage he had over me was that he was male and I was female, which apparently meant that I couldn't possibly know what I was talking about. Sickening. :puke:

[choicevoice]

76. May I refer you to the "Feminist Statement"

Because woman's work is never done and its underpaid or unpaid or boring or repetitious and we're the first to get fired and what we look like is more important than what we do and if we get raped it's out fault and if we get beaten we must have provoked it and if we raise our voices we're nagging bitches and if we enjoy sex we're nymphos and if we don't we're frigid and if we love women it's because we can't get a "real" man and if we ask our doctor too many questions we're neurotic and/or pushy and if we expect childcare we're selfish and if we stand up for our rights we're aggressive and unfeminine and if we don't we're typical weak females and if we want to get married we're out to trap a man and if we don't we're unnatural and because we still can't get an adequate safe contraceptive but men can walk on the moon and if we can't cope or don't want a pregnancy we're made to feel guilty about abortion and... for lots and lots of other reasons we are part of the women's liberation movement.

[Nobody]

83. My parents laughed when I told them I wanted to be Pres and other tales

In front of everyone at the dinner table. I was in second grade and I'd ruled out being an astronaut because Valentina Tereshkova beat me to the First Female to..... thing. I proudly responded that I'd be the first female president just like Valentina Tereshkova was the first woman in space.

Come to think of it, nowadays I'd rather be an astronaut.

Some other examples in my adult life.

Age 18: I used to work at a full service gas station and did ten point maintenence check and got paid for it. My first day on the job. Some guy walked in and did a double take. "I guess that girls can do the same jobs that people can do." The icy stare of disbelief got him backtracking in a hurry.

Age 19: I got my first car but I needed insurance. So dad and I went to the insurance guy and the insurance guy told me that because I didn't have a baby I couldn't have my own policy. Dad to his credit was up in arms and asked if I was 40 years old would I still not be able to have my own policy without having a kid.

Age 20: I worked at the city desk of an electronic parts warehouse to put myself through tech school. Guy asked to talk to one of the guys. They were all on the phone so I asked if I could help them. He looked over to the guys and saw that they were still on the phone. I told him he'd have to give me a shot at it because those guys were going to be on the phone a LOOOOOOOOOOONG TIME. He finally let me see the resistor in his hand and asked me what it was. I patronized him back, giving him the most excruciatingly detailed answer possible.

Age 22: The guy that saw me pulling two carts full of computers to shipping and asked if I needed help. Not a problem except he didn't accept my no. He grabbed the heaviest cart, which caused the contents of every box of manuals to fall and get jumbled together. I told him I hadn't needed help and he could pick up the stuff he spilled without my help. I then went to the women's bathroom and waited about 15 minutes before returning to the production floor.

Ongoing: I still hate it when I'm putting oil in my car anywhere other than in my driveway. Some guy always seems to think I need his expert help. Like I never worked at a gas station and got paid to do that before.

There are other tales but I think I've told enough for now.

[ruthg]

84. well, it is kind of like being treated.....

as if you are about 4 years old.

But heck, I am not gonna worry my pretty little head over it.

[rene moon]

89. I work at a high-profile job

and I have a high-profile position. Because I am young and attractive (so I have been told), men seem to think I am here just for entertainment. Never you mind that I have a degree and that I work really hard.

It is frustrating.

[Tsiyu]

90. Working ten times as hard

to have one tenth as much.

Giving up on yourself because society has.

Raising children, putting your own compelling career on hold only to find yourself single without marketable skills.

Oh, yes, Paternalism loves its mothers. It just doesn't care or worry about what happens to them later in life, the way it worries about the factory worker and the Senator and the cop.

[MountainLaurel]

92. Being told by an insurance agent

That they'd prefer to talk to your husband about the accident your college-age daughter was in, despite the fact that his name isn't on the policy or the car title. (Happened to my best friend's mother.)

A bank officer refusing to let you sign up for a car loan without your husband cosigning, even though your income is twice as much as his. (happened to my mom a few years ago)


A voter registration office refusing to let you register without your husband's signature. (Happened to a professor in the 1980s)

A doctor refusing to do a tubal unless he gets your husband's permission.

[Skittles]

93. that aggogance you feel from republicans?

we feel that constantly in a male-dominated world

[housewolf]

94. What it is...

is an insidious attitude that a female needs to be taken care of. That she is somehow "less ----- than" - less strong, less inteligent, less capable, less educated, less needed, less important, less reasonable, less wealthy, less deserving, less ambitious ... whatever words you want to put in there.

An attitude that females "have their place" and that there are repercussioins if a woman steps out of "her place."

The attitude that a woman is not a full partner but a trophy, a possession, like a pet.

The attitude that "no" is a game.

The attitude that "all women are asking for it."

The attitude that it is right and just that there is an unspoken and unwritten "rule" that women should always serve.

The way it feels is demeaning. It seriously damages many women.

[Karenina]

95. For me, it is quite similar

to racism. One confronts an "assumption of superiority" and is expected to defer to the unspoken hierarchy.

[FizzFuzz]

97. I just nominated this thread for homepage

This is what feminists are constantly trying to convey--the fact that sexism/paternalism is serious and damaging. It is rare in this increasingly macho country that women are asked how they are being mistreated. So I nominated it, for representing a sorely needed openness on the part of a man. Women spend alot of energy expressing compassion and concern for other groups; it's a breath of fresh air to have that concern aimed toward US!!

Thank you Chavez (and welcome back), for actually wanting to hear about women's experiences.


--------------
Some of my experience:

Often, our observations are trivialized. Even here, for example, catching someone in a sexist moment rarely gets an apology; it does get plenty of nasty, ugly, demeaning come-backs. If the incident has involved sexualizing women, then to speak up against it is to invite pile-ons of men laughing at you for being a prude. Or men jumping in with sexualized language meant to hurt and humiliate, while pretending to merely be giving out innocent information.

At my job, I was harrassed online by a male co-worker. I've been there 20 years. He has been there 6. My boss neglected to direct me to Human Resources, and kept it just between us. When it eventually started getting sent to me from his work computer, my boss still did nothing. I had to ask around and was directed by a friend to the computer help desk. They told me they couldn't check HIS computer, it would be invading HIS privacy. Nothing happened to him, although according to another manager, they KNOW he targets vulnerable women. (He had originally targetted me at a rough time in my life)

Well, anyway, the story is long, and it's just too nauseating to go any farther. But that's another example.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

99. Hey - I have been hearing the women I care about voicing this

I wanted to hear what the whole DU had to say

[FizzFuzz]

102. If there were a :slapyourback: smiley, I'd use it!

:D :hi:

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

103. Ha!

:)

[ahem]

151. I second that nomination! n/t

[Flaxbee]

101. As Harvard's president (a man) says "Women just don't have

the capacity to do certain things" (paraphrasing)

That's what it is, paternalism and sexism institutionalized at some of the supposedly greatest centers of learning and enlightenment in the country. It is when a man or men refuse to acknowledge your presence, or joke about your comment, stare at you as if amazed you opened that pretty little mouth you should instead be smearing lipstick on (not that I have anything against lipstick), deny any contribution you've made to the conversation/project/research/etc.

[Lizzie Borden]

106. It feels like being treated like a puppy. But

if you grow up and growl at the 'hand that feeds you' heaven help you. That is strictly forbidden.

[MissB]

108. It is infuriating

Mostly because you are left with a sense that no matter what you say, you will never change their point of view.

During my freshman year of college (engineering), one professor told myself and my fellow classmate that if we didn't make it, it was okay because we were women and we were suited for other things anyway.

[Caria]

111. Want some more examples?

This just happened:
My department was asked to do the impossible. I am the head of the department, so I met with the governing committee to explain why we could not do what they wanted. I was told that I was being stubborn and uncooperative. They subsequently met with one of the men in my department while I was out of town (this man was in charge while I was away). He said the same thing I did, and gave the same reasons (we knew this was coming and prepared together in advance, and then he debriefed me afterward). He was praised for being frank. They dropped the request.

This has happened many times:
A man says something derogatory about feminism. I mention that I am a feminist. The man makes one of the following replies:
"Hahahaha. Honey, you can't be a feminist. You're NICE."
"Hahahaha. You can't be a feminist. You're married!"
"Hahahaha. What would your husband do if I told him you said that?"

[NewJeffCT]

147. yeesh, and welcome to DU

sorry to hear about that.

Unfortunately, Rush & his ilk have successfully demonized feminists by calling them feminazis for years.

[SarahB]

113. Not being able to control your own life.

I was raised by a liberal parents and although my mom gave me an odd set of mixed messages and continual criticism, my dad was a self-identified feminist man who still gives me positive messages.

That being said, I still found myself in a position of having small children, a reduced earning capacity, and stuck in a lousy marriage for years because of that fact. It wasn't about lack of drive or confidence, but putting my trust into a man who seriously let me down when I was most vulnerable.

[purji]

117. A little off topic but,

My husband is still amazed at the things I do every day that he never thinks of.
I park under street lights in any parking lot if it will be dark when I am done with whatever I'm doing.
I am 10 times more aware than he is of the people around me,In any situation.
I never open the door with out seeing who is knocking.
If I am broke down on the road and someone stops to help ,I lock the doors.

We have been taught since childhood,that we should fear half the population.

[American Tragedy]

145. I do the same thing. Just curious, do you think we SHOULDN'T do that?

[MuseRider]

118. There are many perfect answers above

but here is my two cents from an experience. About 10 years ago my mother died leaving my brothers and I a little money, not a HUGE amount but enough that I could realize my dream. I searched and found 53 acres of pasture land and bought it "all by myself"(a term used by the local boys). I used a woman friend who was a Realtor and a woman lawyer to draw up the title etc. I paid cash. My problem came when dealing with the Rural Water District. I had some, but not a lot of trouble, getting many of the things I needed with the other utilities but these folks were not going to put water on my property unless my husband signed for it and met with them. It did not matter that his name was not on the papers, that he had no hold on this place. It did not matter that I was 40 years old and perfectly capable. It finally came down to this, after 2 weeks of trying I finally met with the men again. They were worried about who would be paying the bills, who would be signing the checks. I asked them if a penis was needed to do those things. They turned and walked away in embarrassment I suppose but my water line was put in the next day. An adult woman, holding a job, raising a family, money in hand and I had to resort to that to get it done. After that all the good old boys in the area started a pot to see who could guess when I would give it all up and sell. I am still there, I have their respect (I think) because every single thing that has been done out there has been done and planned by me. It takes that for a woman to get respect, I knew I had to do it all myself no matter how hard, heavy, sweaty and nasty it was. A man would never have to do that. He would be welcomed into the club from the get go. My husband, who has nothing to do with the place, gets all the community mail. I am included as Mrs. His Name. All that mail goes directly into the trash without being opened until they break down their quaint little convention of trying to make the women in their lives nameless shadows. Sorry so long but we as women have to deal with little things like this all the time. It is unnecessary and cumbersome and it makes me feel angry more often than I need to feel angry. I see the return of these conventions now and I am frightened by it but I suppose I shouldn't worry my pretty little head over it because the men will take care of us. LOL, as if.

[proudbluestater]

129. Great story, I'm glad you shared, but sorry you had to go through it

I'm amazed that this still happens anywhere in the US! I've been on my own with three kids for a few years now and nobody seems surprised that I do all the grown-up "men things" on my own. I never meet resistance, thank goodness.

Years ago, before I got married I belonged to AAA. When I got married my husband joined MY policy. But AAA couldn't understand that concept, so they named him the "master member" and addressed all their mail to HIM. Man, that pissed me off.

[MuseRider]

130. That is the way it is

all over here. Even my correspondence from my job comes to Mrs. His Name and it took me years to get that corrected. They finally changed that when I started taking their mail back to them in person and telling them that I would not open it and I guess I raised enough of a commotion that they finally gave in and changed it. I will always be Mrs. His Name around here and when he dies I will be the Widow His Name but if they really want me to know something they know they need to address it to Ms.My Name and the funny thing is they do if it is important. I guess that lets me know what they think of my little protest. It is a constant battle around here but partly it is because there are so many women, supposedly liberated women, who look at me like I am nuts when I explain this to them. Ah well, I guess there has to always be a few nutty people in every community and around here it is me. :hi: Not that that bothers me. :;-):

[knitter4democracy]

154. I can't get any start-up money for my shop without my husband

I tried, but no go. So, I've named him my vice-president, and that makes all the men feel better. We laugh about it, actually, because what does he know about yarn shops? He has the occasional good idea, but that's about it.

When is that going to change?!

[MuseRider]

165. That is just wrong

and as far as changing? I see it getting worse. I remember that my Grandmother came into quite a bit of money but when she was married her BROTHERS had her money transfered into her husbands name. I am worried. You should be able to start a business. What would they have done if you had been single? I am glad you can laugh about it, I don't think I would be able to.

[redqueen]

137. SO much good stuff on this thread.

God bless you CSTtT for asking, and caring.

:hug:

[Lorien]

138. I guess I don't really know

I was lucky; I was raised by a strong willed single mom (who would roll up her sleeves and slide under the car when it broke down). My dad was a feminist, I went to an extremely liberal private school where sexism and racism weren't tolerated, and I've spent most of my working life either being self employed or having women as bosses. The few years I was employed by a sexist corporation were intolerable, so I started my own company. If someone gives me any crap these days (I've got long blonde hair and lots of cleavage, so I do get crap from guys at times) I just tell them to get over themselves. I think if you never experienced it during childhood, you'll be less likely to let it have any effect on you as an adult.

[Avalux]

139. A personal take - from when I was 12

My Dad, who really is a great guy, decided to give my dog away because she was getting old. He made all the arrangements - she was to live out the rest of her life on a farm where she would be more comfortable; I would not have to suffer through watching her die one day.
So the day she left , I happened to glance out my bedroom window and wondered why Queenie was being walked through our yard by a stranger. Wasn't alarmed, then in a few minutes went downstairs to see what was going on. By the time I got there, Queenie was gone.
Although my Dad probably thought he was sparing me heartache, what he did was far worse. He made a decision for me he had no right to make, assuming I would not be able to handle the death of my pet; he didn't allow me to say goodbye. Words cannot describe the hurt I felt and still feel today over that incident. I had no choice.

[redqueen]

141. That's so sad...

I'm sorry. The pain you feel is evident in the way you write about this incident.

:hug:

[Avalux]

142. the pain is still there -

and I am still angry at my Dad for making the decision for me. Thanks for your kind words redqeen. :hug:

[Samurai_Writer]

143. There are so many examples in my life...

after 44 years of living I don't even know where to begin. Sexual harrassment in school and on the job, being passed over for promotions because I'm female, being paid less because I'm female (and a single mom), relegated to doing 'women's work' while the guys got to do important and fun projects, to the very innocuous and innocent-seeming comments you get in every day life. And for the most part, the people making those comments or acting paternalistic towards you don't even realize what they are doing! That's what really gets me! Supposed 'liberals' who act or say something that, if said to a MAN, would get them socked in the jaw.

Grrrr.... and to think after 44 years, I still have to put up with this type of discrimination.

[NewJeffCT]

146. I just experienced it on behalf of my wife...

How about this to me? I was interested in a job in Richmond, Virginia that seems like a very good fit for my experience. I researched the company & the area, got some additional info from some Richmond area DUers, etc (thanks esp to Midlodemocrat!). The phone interview with this company went well and they wanted me to fly down there for an in person interview. I got the impression that the interview was only a formality and that the job was mine to lose.

Well, a few hours before my flight, it was canceled due to snow here in Connecticut.

I was later speaking with the headhunter who put me in touch with the company and about relocating to the Richmond area and said that my biggest concern would be my wife finding a job down in Richmond as well, as we would like to use both incomes when qualifying for a mortgage on a new house. My wife¡¯s salary is very close to mine, and I strongly suspect that her annual income will surpass mine within a year or two at the most if we both stay in our current jobs. She is very career oriented and we have been lucky to have grandparents watch our daughter during the daytime for almost 2 years now.

The headhunter then asked me has my wife considered staying at home with the baby? Now, if it was my wife relocating for a job, would anybody have asked her if her husband would consider staying home with the baby?

[ahem]

149. It hurts. In so many ways. It's more than having to fight for gender ...

equality, it's having to fight for personhood.

In 2000, after the vote but before the Supremes picked a president, my place of work was full of right-wing men who were very vocal about the election. When I spoke up, in an appropriate way for a work environment, my boss called me a whore and said that I lacked intellectual integrity. If he wanted to debate my intellectual integrity that would have been fine, but he was so taken aback by my views that he had to attack me as a woman with the whore comment. I was in charge of most of the running of the business--even though I was the paid less then anyone else (one of my many jobs was payroll, so I knew it.) I left after that.

I have a degree in Computer Information System Analysis, worked as a web designer, and have fixed computers for years, whenever a family member calls for computer advice (even knowing all of this about me) they ask for my husband. He, of course, hands the phone back to me after reminding them for the umpteenth time that he doesn't know much about it.

Both sides of our family were shocked when I kept my last name after marriage. One woman even asked me "How do you go about doing that?" She honestly thought that your name changed by default and you had to do something special to retain it.

Speaking of marriage, my father said he wouldn't attend my wedding if I was going to have both him and my mother give me away, rather than just him. I wasn't big on the 'giving away' thing anyway, but I found it more suitable for both my parents to do it as an act of seeing me off rather than to follow the tradition of it being a property transfer from my father to my husband.

When I was 18 I was raped by someone I knew. Less than a month later, another person drugged a drink in an attempt to do the same. I got away that time, but later I dealt with playful ribbing from male friends who didn't understand why I was "paranoid" about taking pre-mixed drinks from them or going out late by myself. Many of them knew what had happened but didn't understand that what happened to me wasn't that rare.

General things that happen many times:

-warned not to appear so close to my female friends ("people will think you're a lesbian!")

-told that I'm cute when I'm angry, during heated debate

-having restaurant staff always address the male at the table, sometimes even after they've received payment from me--it's like I'm invisible

-when I'm hiring someone for repair work at home, if they don't like how the negotiation is going, they will ask to speak to my husband

I won't even get into the heat I've taken for choosing not to have children. It's like I'm less of a woman if I don't do that thing that we're "created to do!"

This is but a small sampling. Really small. Really.

[housewolf]

155. Chavez, Speak The Truth

What have you learned from this thread?

[theboss]

160. It feels like he should retire

I mean, he's been great for Penn State and will probably go down as the greatest football coach of all time, but his time has past and he can't recruit....

Oh...I'm sorry.

I thought you said Paternoism.

[China_cat]

162. Definition

...man is defined as a human being and woman is defined as a female. Whenever she tries to behave as a human being she is accused of trying to emulate the male...

Simone de Beauvoir

[Nikia]

164. This is a good discussion

I am glad these views are getting out.
I have had several experiences similiar to the women above. Here is another one: If we interview for a "man's job" we are judged as weak and not as capable of handling the job if we dress femininly (dress, pumps, and make up). If we don't dress like this though, we are judged as less friendly, personal, and sloppy. If we get the job, we are weak if we are not assertive enough. If we are assertive enough, we are labled as pushy or worse. If we are friendly with others, we are accused of gossipping, not taking our jobs seriously, or spending too much time socializing. It we don't do this, we are cold and inpersonable. WE are judged in the workplace both as a woman and an employee, whi8ch are often contradictory. We must therefore walk a much thinner line than men, who do not have contradictory expectations, do.

[Nobody]

166. The failing of one woman is failings of all of us

Or one woman is an adequate representative sample of three billion.

Has any woman on DU heard something like he following?

We tried a woman in that position and she didn't work out. That's why we're not promoting you.

I know a woman who can't balance her checkbook. So you shouldn't try to understand math, honey. It's too hard for girls. Maybe you should go to school to become a secretary instead of a physicist.

You want to become a mechanic? Hahahahahahaha! Did you know that my sister tried and wasn't much good at it?

I asked the woman clerk where the (item) was and she didn't know. I want to ask one of the guys where it is.

I'm sure most minorities have had the same kind of experiences where they were, like it or not, representing all of that minority. And the assumption being that the failing of one was the failings of all. It puts tremendous pressure on you to know that you CAN'T EVER FAIL or you ruin someone's else's chances of being allowed to try.

It's one of the most frustrating feelings I've ever experienced.

[Karenina]

172. BINGO!

"I'm sure most minorities have had the same kind of experiences where they were, like it or not, representing all of that minority. And the assumption being that the failing of one was the failings of all. It puts tremendous pressure on you to know that you CAN'T EVER FAIL or you ruin someone's else's chances of being allowed to try."

I always labor under the pressure of being PERFECT with the weight of gender and race on my back. Now HERE'S the real kicker, EVEN THAT DOESN'T COUNT. My skating coach once demanded a judge COME LOOK AT A CLEAN TRACING he claimed I fluffed. The evidence was etched in the ice. He refused, I failed the test. Skating was a HOBBY. I'll not bore you now with rants of the same shit in my VOCATION as I'm so ANGRY and RAW at the moment and would undoubtedly come across as "unladylike."

[Chovexani]

173. Oh god yes!

Further upthread, a couple of women mentioned being condescended to while shopping for computer equipment. Well let me tell you a similar story, only from the other side. I've spent most of my working life in various retail positions, and a big chunk of that has been in traditionally male-dominated outlets--computer/electronic stores and the like. I have a lot of experience in commission sales and I can't tell you how difficult it is for women to even be hired in those positions. I have applied for the exact same job as various male friends & acquaintances, when they were less knowledgable in the field, and they've been hired over me. Not only that, in every single interview it seems I am given the third degree on my computer knowledge, like the fact that I have ovaries makes me somehow too stupid to sell complicated electronics to people. They ask the most blatantly obvious questions too--what's RAM, what's USB, etc. Stuff anyone who's ever read a freaking "for Dummies" book would know. And they are always completely condescending about it, asking me like they're rhetorical questions because I couldn't possibly know that stuff. At one job I had, I knew they couldn't have put the men through the same grilling because half my male co-workers couldn't tell their ass from a hole in the ground let alone understand your average spec sheet.

In my last retail gig I worked at a major department store chain, in the home office/computer dept. We sold desktop PC bundles, laptops, fax machines and the like. Only one other woman was commission besides myself in that dept. Customers--male and female alike--acted like the two of us were invisible. If I saw a customer browsing the machines I would ask politely if they needed some help. They'd say no, they were just browsing. Not five minutes later, without fail, I would see them talking with one of my male co-workers, asking them about various features and bundles. Male co-worker would get the sale. This happened at least twice every single day.

During our weeklies when we each would sit down with the dept. manager to go over our sales numbers, my (male) boss was so fucking paternalistic it made me want to scream and tear my hair out. Now, when I am at work I pretty much stick with pantsuits--I don't have any work-appropriate skirts, and A/C in most workplaces chills me to the bone. I don't wear makeup either, mostly because I'm a goth and I don't know how to put on regular colors without looking like a French whore. My boss would always tell me my numbers would most likely improve if I "wore a little makeup", or "tried to look a little more feminine and less threatening". Whenever I would bring up our frequent stock problems, supervisors would do the proverbial head pat and ask me why I was worrying so much about it, everything was under control. Eventually I had enough and quit in frustration. This story is very, very common among other women I know who have also worked in commission electronics sales. At this same job, a female friend of mine in the audio department told me she used to be blatantly told by male customers shopping for car stereos that they wanted to talk to a male associate, because women don't know about car stereos. Between discrimination in hiring, and abuse/indifference from customers & staff alike, it's no wonder women don't work these jobs. I'm a tech geek and I enjoy sales but I just can't do it anymore.

Think about it: next time you go into a major chain electronic store, take a look at the gender makeup of the staff. I guarantee you that 99.9% of the floor staff--the associates selling big ticket items like TVs, home theaters and computers, which are high-paying commission sales--will be men. OTOH, nearly all the cashiers (a job that pays far, far less...typically $8/hr) will be women. Out of the big chains the only place I can say that this isn't true is Best Buy. At least in the ones in my area, there are plenty of female associates in the big ticket departments, which is one reason I make sure I shop there. And I make sure a woman gets the sale. Solidarity, and all that.

[Nobody]

174. I used to be in the IT industry

Until the jobs got exported and 500+ resumes per position was all there was.

I hate makeup unless I'm in a stage performance. I'd rather do almost anything else than waste 20+ minutes each morning when I could be sleeping or surfing the web, or doing anything else far more interesting.

I've never been told to wear makeup by any boss, but I have heard of other women being told that so I have a plan for when that happens to me.

Either ignore it or come in the next day with the most outrageous stage makeup imaginable. I was thinking maybe something like a middle ages leper, or a space alien, or a radiation victim.

Ignoring the "advice" is my number one serious plan, but the outrageous stage makeup idea is if they press the issue or I plan to quit anyway.

You're right. I very rarely see women in big ticket sales. Even in department sales when the big ticket items are things like sporting goods. The women are all in clothing sales and that pays squat.

In my days in IT, I knew a woman who was hired at the same time as and out of the same tech school as three men. The job was phone tech support. The men were each paid 4K a year more than she was. Same education, same experience, same job, same shift. And she was the only one who didn't hang up on customers in order to get a lunch in at the exact crack of noon.

By the way, next time I can afford to buy a big ticket item, I'll think of you and make sure the woman gets the sale.

If a man tries to patronize me when I'm a customer, I have a ready response: Does this computer have LBL technology? What about LRF support? Normally I'm an easy sale. I know what I want and don't need to be talked into it but I have low tolerance for assholes.

[redqueen]

168. Kick.

One of my favorite threads, ever.

[northamericancitizen]

171. What about you guys?

I really wish that this thread will go on so I can read more stories from sisters who where able to find a way of "being there" instead of surviving.

But shouldn't we start a thread about the difficulties inherent to the masculine condition?

In my book, we both, female and male, had been suffering for too long in our pre-defined role.

My bias, is that it was and still is more difficult for women.

This said, I want to hear about the difficulties of being a man.

If we, as human being, want to bring peace, harmony etc on this earth we have to deal with that silent and universal war: male vs female or vice-versa.

It is everywhere.

Peace process starts with a good and honest talk.

I am not superior cause I'm a female and I certainly don't give you that status.

Can we start talking?