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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 11:51 AM
Original message
Snopes apologizes to Michael Moore
I
owe Michael Moore an apology. In a January 2002 interview with Al D'Amato and Alan Colmes of the FOX Network, Michael Moore said:
Why did this country allow the bin Laden family, two days after — two days after September 11 — to fly around America and pick up all the bin Laden relatives, about 24 of them, and take them to Europe? Not a single one of them was interrogated by the FBI.
That set me off on a tirade, and it shouldn't have. Part of Mr. Moore's statement has since been proved to be correct — during the ban on air travel, some Saudis (including members of the bin Laden family) were transported by air to assembly points in the U.S. in preparation for their leaving the country. In an earlier version of this article, I ranted and raved about his avowing bin Laden flights had taken place while no one was allowed to fly. Yet some did, at least within the U.S.

I shouldn't have yelled at him. He was right about that.


http://www.snopes.com/rumors/flight.htm
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ewagner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
1. Snopes credibility just returned n/t
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Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
2. Proof that 100,000 nasty emails
Edited on Mon Sep-08-03 11:52 AM by Argumentus
CAN have an effect. It also lowered his credibility (when he flamed Michael Moore).
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
3. On a Sunday talk show
Powell was asked this very question....He played dum....Saying something like he has not been given any information on that....

This is just from memory....


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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. not quite good enough, in my book
The way I saw it, the problem wasn't that Snopes got "vitriolic" it was that Snopes said Moore "invented" the Saudi plane story. It turned out to be a real story, and Snopes doesn't directly address its factual error.

The second problem is that Snopes scrubbed its original version. Tom Tomorrow got it from Google cache. Scrubbing is a no-no, imo, especially for a site like Snopes.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Do you have the link to the Tom Tomorrow page?
I saw it here last night, but forgot to bookmark.
Thanks.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. here
http://www.thismodernworld.com/weblog/mtarchives/week_2003_08_31.html#001039

I hope the link is right, that site is a little confusing...
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. who cares? Google cache is great!
I have been able to re-assemble some of my own posts from other websites who scrubbed their pages. You can do it with any text by simply making educated guesses as to the content of the text, and cobble together the final text using the search function on google.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Snopes apologized. IMHO, it's better to back off once someone apologizes
Edited on Mon Sep-08-03 12:23 PM by w4rma
*and* admits they are wrong. Snopes has done that.

I respect Snopes's work, alot.

Now, the question is: Could Snopes's current explanation be more accurate with the available public information?
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. I know what you're saying, but here's why I disagree
the idea that "Michael Moore gets his facts wrong" is widespread, and Snpoes contributed to it.

Snopes perpetuated a myth due to poor research, exactly the opposite of what it claims to do. If Michael Moore got that info right, why wasn't Snopes able to do it? It's still not clear.

In addition to being wrong about the story, and apparently without even researching it, it takes the extra step of saying that Moore, the person who actually got the story right, "invented" it.

My bottom line to them when I'm emailing them is that they should just steer totally clear of stories with consequence like this.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
8. See? Was that so hard?
I think the Snopes site tries very hard to get what it publishes right. And it's a measure of integrity to say when you're wrong and down a little humble pie. Unfortunately, with the MBA presidency, we see the worst impulses and lessons from biz school played out on the canvas of real persons and real lives. Never apologize, never explain. Just keep going ahead. Revisiting the mistakes of the past (though we admit no such thing ever happened) doesn't solve anything. And so on.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I agree. I have a lot of respect for this person
he/she did the right thing in admitting they were wrong and the credibility of the sight stays intact as a result..
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
11. Sounds like a lame apology, imo.
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Noordam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
12. I sent Snopes this article a long time ago
But now they reference it. I do not know what Snopes problem with this story is but they KNEW for a fact the Tampa Tribune was saying this and naming names of detectives that flew on ONE of the special planes.

I save the article on my machine but it pissed me off that Saudis were flying. If you want you can go to the Tampa Tribune site and pay for the article from their archives. www.tampatrib.com




"Phantom Flight From Florida
By KATHY STEELE ksteele@tampatrib.com
Published: Oct 5, 2001

TAMPA - The twin-engine Lear jet streaked into the afternoon sky, leaving Tampa behind but revealing a glimpse of international intrigue in the aftermath of terrorist attacks on America.
The federal government says the flight never took place.

But the two armed bodyguards hired to chaperon their clients out of the state recall the 100-minute trip Sept. 13 quite vividly.

In the end, the son of a Saudi Arabian prince who is the nation's defense minister and the son of a Saudi army commander made it to Kentucky for a waiting 747 and a trip to their homeland.

The hastily arranged flight out of Raytheon Airport Services, a private hangar on the outskirts of Tampa International Airport, was anything but ordinary. It lifted off the tarmac at a time when every private plane in the nation was grounded due to safety concerns after the Sept. 11 attacks.

Local and federal authorities will say little about the flight.

``It's not in our logs ... it didn't occur,'' said Chris White, spokesman for the Federal Aviation Administration's regional office in Atlanta.

For private investigators Dan Grossi and Manuel Perez, the bodyguards on the Lear, it was a trip they can't forget.


A Special Situation Grossi said Tampa police intelligence detectives called him about 11 a.m. Sept. 13, needing help with a special situation: They had been watching three young Saudi men - at least one a student at the University of Tampa - at their south Tampa apartment, and the trio was scared and wanted to go home.

Jim Harf, director of UT's international programs, confirmed one of them is the son of Prince Sultan, the defense minister.

University spokesman Grant Donaldson refused to provide details. Perez said he understood the men arrived in Tampa three weeks earlier to receive tutoring in English.

The Tampa detectives guarding the men were ordered to stay in Tampa by Police Chief Bennie Holder, so Grossi was offered the job of escorting the trio to Lexington, Ky., where the prince's relatives were buying race horses.

Lexington police Lt. Mark Barnard confirmed a Saudi relative had asked for help in getting protection for the men in Tampa. Two off-duty detectives were assigned. Tampa police records list Sultan bin Fahad as the one requesting the security detail.

But Tampa's official assistance ended at Raytheon's airport terminal.

``There was a perceived threat, and the family of the person wanted him home right away,'' said Tampa police Sgt. John Solomon. ``The job lasted about five hours. It was handled very quickly.''


`Out Of A Tom Clancy Movie' Meanwhile, Grossi had put Perez on alert and went home to wait. Both men provide security for the National Football League at Raymond James Stadium. Grossi, who retired from the Tampa Police Department in August, has worked in internal affairs and homicide. Perez, who has his own investigative company in St. Petersburg, worked for the FBI for more than 29 years and has experience in counterterrorism and as a bomb technician.

At 2:30 p.m., Grossi got the call from the police department.

``They said it was happening,'' Grossi said. ``This was out of a Tom Clancy movie.''

Grossi said he was told the clearance came from the White House after the prince's family pulled a favor from former President Bush. Prince Sultan, the Saudi defense minister, was part of the coalition that fought the Persian Gulf War in 1991.

To the United States, Saudi Arabia is a key component in the emerging coalition of nations in the war on terrorism.

The White House referred questions on the trip to the State Department, which denied involvement, and the National Security Council, which did not return messages.

At Raytheon airport, Grossi met with the Tampa detectives who had brought the young men. The Lear's pilot, who had flown in from Fort Lauderdale, introduced himself.

By 4:30 p.m., the twin-engine, eight-passenger jet lifted off.

``They looked like typical college students with knapsacks,'' Perez said. ``I didn't realize the prince's son was onboard until we landed.''

Grossi and Perez recalled the strange feeling of flying in the near-empty sky, knowing of the ban on private flights.

``My first reaction to the pilot was, `We're not going to get shot down are we?' '' Perez said.

Grossi said he spoke only briefly to the prince's son.

``He wanted to leave,'' Grossi said. But he also said he would like to return, Grossi said.

In less than two hours, the Lear landed at the Blue Grass airport, where the passengers were met by Saudi security officials, Grossi said. He and Perez saw several private 747s parked on the tarmac with foreign flags on the tails and Arabic lettering on the sides.

Within the hour, the Lear took off again for Tampa with Grossi and Perez. Neither would say how much they were paid.

But the Lear was not headed back to Fort Lauderdale, Grossi said the pilot told him. It was bound for New Orleans to pick up someone who needed a ride to New York.

Grossi said he doesn't recall the name of the aircraft company providing the jet.

``Who knows who they really were,'' Grossi said. ``It was certainly somebody important to obtain clearance to fly.''



Reporter Kathy Steele can be reached at (813) 885-5437. Reporters Brenna Kelly and Elizabeth Lee Brown contributed to this report. They can be reached at (813) 885-5437. "


IMHO, I think the Detective smelt CIA as owners of the plane.
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PROGRESSIVE1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
13. Mighty Moore was RIGHT and....
Shitty Snopes was WRONG!!!!!


You Go Get Em' Mike!!!!
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acropolis Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. 90% of the political urban legends out there are against liberals
and snopes knocks em down one by one. I've gotten so many emails from republicans I know with forwarded lies about the Clintons and so many others,

and snopes has always been there for me to send a well-researched reply (debunking) within two minutes.

they make mistakes too, but so does everyone.
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PROGRESSIVE1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-08-03 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Yes, but...
Snopes should be more judicious when critisizing liberals. Remember how can you be supporting Liberals when you knock them down. We CANNOT give the FReepers and more amunition than they already have!
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