WTF? Protesters(behind 10 ft. fence) pepper sprayed

[kuozzman]

Police officers fire streams of pepper spray over a crowd of protesters after demonstrators threw objects over the fence at police as the Bush inaugural parade passed by on Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington, January 20, 2005. Anti-war chants competed with pomp and circumstance as the inauguration of President George W. Bush (news - web sites) for a second term took place amid the barricaded streets of central Washington. REUTERS/Jim Bourg


A demonstrator hit by streams of pepper spray fired by police has water poured into his eyes after protestors clashed with police on Pennsylvania Avenue several blocks from the White House in Washington, January 20, 2005. Anti-war chants competed with pomp and circumstance during the inauguration of President George W. Bush (news - web sites) for a second term as president took place amid the barricaded streets of central Washington. REUTERS/Jim Bourg

[goodhue]

1. geez

any links?

[kuozzman]

6. Yahoo Slideshow-63 Protest Pics (and counting)

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?g=events/ts/012005inaugprotests&a=&tmpl=sl&ns=&l=&e=1&t=&prev=14

[Solly Mack]

2. Land of the Free!

Home of the rounded up and pepper sprayed

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

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[AntiCoup2K4]

38. Yeah sure Bobby.....

Sorry, but I'm not in the mood to play along today. We both know what team you're rooting for.

[Just Me]

81. This "country" must be pretty "sick" to spend tens of millions to protect,

it's "elected" leader.

There is something VERY, VERY WRONG with this whole picture.

Doncha' think? :bounce:

[AliciaKeyedUp]

82. Why?

It only takes one or two crazies to attack a president and they have done that before. Look at the number of presidents who have been attacked. Even in recent years both Ford and Reagan were assaulted. And before that it was JFK.

[uhhuh]

89. I know!

And even after Ford, Reagan and JFK, Clinton could then and can still now, walk down a public street without 10 foot barricades. Jimmy Carter too. Strange, huh?

[AliciaKeyedUp]

90. Of course, that was before 9/11

And no, I don't believe the IHOP stuff. I think Bush is an idiot, just don't believe that.

[Just Me]

95. Sounds like familiar rhetoric.

Have you noticed the uptick on "terrorist" talk lately?

[Bluebear]

4. Judy Woodriff just said it all went off "WITHOUT A HITCH"

Gee, you didn't see this on TV.

[caligirl]

13. Actually I heard ABC's Peter Jennings say it as He listed some of the

incidents. Basically he said there were only a few incidents listing this as one of them.

[NYC]

71. I saw it on television.

It was such a wide spray, I thought it was a water hose. Ch. 7 ABC News had this on television.

They said the protestors were pepper sprayed, but I thought when I saw the wide stream of fluid, I was seeing a water hose.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

5. Bush....

you Hitler you!!!

:grr:

[Just Me]

62. The "crowd control" is as disturbing as the "media control".

Both concepts completely undermine "the people" which are SUPPOSED to be the base upon which this country is built.

BUT, with all these "CONTROL" mechanisms in place,..."the people" have NO power. "The people" are being disempowered and CONTROLLED and USED.

The world is disgusted at a country which proclaims to "spread democracy" when that country manipulates/controls/abuses it own people.

[Cuban_Liberal]

7. "...after demonstrators threw objects over the fence at police ...."

That's what happens when you do that. No sympathy from me-- at all.

[LizW]

9. What would happen if you ran out of the crowd

and came within two feet of Bush while he was out of the car walking?

Two people did this in the "special adoration area" and they weren't pepper sprayed. The SS just took them under the arms and moved them off the street.

[Cuban_Liberal]

12. Did they throw anything at the police? n/t

[moobu2]

19. All those protestors who were sprayed didn't throw something

[Cuban_Liberal]

20. They were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Sad, but a fact of life.

:shrug:

[AZCat]

29. We've had a problem with that here in Tucson

There were some riots (?) in the last couple of years here in Tucson over college basketball (of all things) and a couple of people not involved were hurt because of an allegedly disproportionate police response. One of the cases recently wrapped up (maybe two months ago) and the jury awarded the victim damages (I don't remember how much).

While I don't think pepper-sprayed protesters will prompt the kind of backlash that either the Guantanamo on the Hudson or the incidents here have, it is still an interesting discussion (absent the rhetoric). What is an appropriate response to certain kinds of activity? Is it to quickly suppress any action that could kindle a far larger disruption, or should the police be more flexible in their response, and ignore actions below a set threshold?

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but who actually gets to set the guidelines for a response? Here in Tucson it is the Chief of Police, and he is in a lot of hot water because of the fines from the cases I mentioned above (one of them was several million dollars). Is that common - I know D.C. is probably different because of the President.

[theboss]

32. The same thing happens in College Park, MD all the time

Everytime Maryland wins something big, half the town explodes.

I think the real danger with these types of incidents is that it gets the police over-excited for the next incident. There's been a few ugly incidents in DC and the surrounding area over the last few years so everytime there's a large gathering, the police are extra-jumpy.

I don't know what the solution is, but I think all sides need to take some responsibility.

[drdtroit]

49. Why not just grease them all?

They're already penned in, you don't even have to chase 'em.
That's compassionate conservatism, save them from themselves.

[tkmorris]

61. I've heard that said about certain people at weddings

You know, the kind of wedding that gets bombed to hell and gone?

And yes, I know you will call this too a straw man, but that "wrong place wrong time" argument is weak, really weak, and I have yet to see it used by anyone who wasn't trying to justify the unjustifiable. All too often police in these situations seem to feel some perverted desire to out muscle the crowds, to show them who's boss, instead of simply disengaging. Is it really necessary for them to meet force (if a snowball can be called that) with greater force? In especially force directed at such a large swath of people instead of more directed at individuals?

[ThirdWheelLegend]

10. after they had WMD and attacked us on 9/11

Iraqis get no sympathy from me-- at all.

[Cuban_Liberal]

11. Nice, non-parallel straw man. n/t

[ThirdWheelLegend]

16. i love straw!

was actually trying to make a point about how you are quoting a corporate media source as your justification for your disdain of people that don't accept an war criminal as pResident.

[Cuban_Liberal]

18. I don't disdain them.

I'm speaking as an ex-cop. I have no reason to believe the information is incorrect. Do you have a source of inforation to the contrary?

[Just Me]

55. As an ex-cop, I'm sure you are well-trained about "use of force".

I am sure you know the rules concerning appropriate use of force.

In my former life, I was an attorney who was confronted with what is called section 1983 actions.

Are you familiar with those?

Let's take a somewhat comparable situation,...the one that involved fans throwing drinks and chairs at basketball players.

Would it be appropriate to spray at, let's say, one hundred fans in order to maintain order over three abusive fans?

I'm just sayin',...evaluate the facts.

How many threw "WHAT" over that ten foot fence? Was the reaction appropriate?

Unfortunately, my guess is that the "REACTION" was inappropriate,...but that is merely a guess.

On edit: try to remove yourself from your subjective need to protect the integrity of all those who are like you,...please.

[Sparkle]

15. So if 1 or 2 protestors threw something over the fence,

all of them should be sprayed with pepper spray?

[Cuban_Liberal]

17. Yes, that's how it works. nt

[drdtroit]

50. Wow, such logic ...

well someone in your neighborhhod is a child molester so YOU should also go to prison.
That's how it works.

[Northern Experiment]

23. I know.....

I'm abosolutely positive that the whole crowd there didn't throw objects. Yet they just pulled out the big pepper spray cannon and let loose on that entire area. And with wind a huge band of people can be caught in that.

Its like they couldn't wait for someone to act up.

And like it was said earlier.....why not pepperspray that person in the "cult like friendly bush zone" who tried to RUN into the streets. Not behind a 10ft fence.
Sickening.

[Elidor]

27. It's called collective punishment

Pioneered by the ancient Romans. Perfected by the Nazis and the state of Israel.

[Just Me]

56. Aw. C'mon. "Collective punishment" is utilized by ALL authoritarians.

Geez. At least maintain some perspective. The list of tyrants who have utilized "collective punishment" is as long as is the history of humanity wide.

[Elidor]

64. I highlighted a few of the more creative punishers.

The list was not meant to be comprehensive.

[Just Me]

67. *smile* yup,...I noticed you didn't include the neoCONimperialists.

Just tryin' to chisel down to those "authoritarians" rather than generalizing like the "authoritarians".

After all, we must keep our target very clear if we are going to exact change and give power to "the people". Yes?

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

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[tuvor]

24. Where does it say that?

I don't see that quote anywhere.

[Cuban_Liberal]

53. Right in the caption under the first photo.

"Police officers fire streams of pepper spray over a crowd of protesters after demonstrators threw objects over the fence at police as the Bush inaugural parade passed by on Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington, January 20, 2005. Anti-war chants competed with pomp and circumstance as the inauguration of President George W. Bush (news - web sites) for a second term took place amid the barricaded streets of central Washington. REUTERS/Jim Bourg "

[loudestchick]

88. Isn't it possible that they were throwing things at the

"Bush inaugural parade passed by on Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington, January 20, 2005." That the intended targets of snowballs and eggs weren't the officers but the line of limos carrying the war criminal and his cohorts? The assumption that the police were the targets is similar to the assumption made by the right "that liberals hate the troops" when in fact what we hate is this pointless, destructive war.

Consider, please.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

91. What I saw on C-Span indicates some of it was thrown at cops

In any case, they were throwing things at other people and that merits police action.

The protests were going fine before that.

[RubyDuby in GA]

25. I'm willing to wager that it wasn't the ones right up front close to the

fence doing the throwing, yet they bore the brunt of the spray.

Not cool.

[YNGW]

26. I agree.

Throwing things at the presidential motorcade, and I don't care what it is, is inexcusable. No sympathy here either. People have a way of connecting acts like this to the whole Democratic party, and they don't need the media to do it for them, they do it on their own. Dumb move.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

31. OH BULLSHIT..it's looking like Sheriff Clarke in Alabama in the 60's

you don't indiscriminately harm an entire crowd for the actions of a few

[AliciaKeyedUp]

34. Sorry, but it was crowd control

And they were throwing things. I saw that much on C-Span. If you go to protest, you know this can happen so you should be prepared. The police were trying to keep this from getting out of control.

It appears they succeeded.

[NervousRex]

35. Crowd control?

They're in a f*ckin' cage!!!!! How much more control is required?

[AliciaKeyedUp]

39. Cage?

I saw that "cage" come down in places. And there were hundreds or more people over there, so if things got out of hand, it would be chaos.

Note to the protesters, if you don't want to be pepper sprayed, don't throw shit at cops.

[NervousRex]

44. I am sorry...

Did I say cage?...I meant "Freedom Fence" I forgot to use the proper term.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

75. I am sorry

It's a freaking fence and not even a very good one at that.

[Just Me]

79. It,...that "fence" IS a symbol of ANTI-FREEDOM, ANTI-DEMOCRACY.

Aren't you the least bit concerned that our country has spiralled DOWN to this point of "containment"?

Don't you question WHY this so-called "democracy" feels so INSECURE that its leaders must spend tens of millions to CONTAIN AND CONTROL "the people"?

This country must be VERY SICK!!!

Doncha' think?

[AliciaKeyedUp]

80. I live near Washington

I deal with security precautions on a regular basis. Maybe, as a result, I actually understand the need and don't see it from an academic perspective.

[Ms Chicklet]

84. Speaking in code?

"don't see it from an academic perspective"

Meaning "Nyah! Nyah! You're an elitist! Stop thinking! It works for me!"

[AliciaKeyedUp]

85. Not an elitist and not speaking in code

Anytime I go into D.C. or even anywhere around here in Northern VA, I encounter security. We live with it every day. We have government buildings and monuments just about everywhere. As a result, you get used to security and, in most cases (including my own), see the need for it.

Clinton had security, so did Carter. And we saw what happens when security isn't good enough with Reagan, Ford or JFK.

[Biased Liberal Media]

92. I completely agree here

Very disgusting, what our country has come to. It's Vietnam, all over again.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

36. Funny, they didn't use those tactics in FLa in 11/00

[egoprofit]

40. looks like a freakin' water hose!!

that can't possibly be a CAN of pepper spray, right?! that's crazy force!!

[AliciaKeyedUp]

42. If I read right

It's pepper in water. Remember, they were prepared for crowds not individuals.

[Just Me]

60. But,...I do have a problem with the assumption underlying that,...

,..."crowd control" premise,...and the "rights" (yes, CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS) which that assumption undermines.

I find it incredibly disconcerting that any of us can excuse excessive force against those who oppose this radical rule.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

76. It depends on what you consider excessive

No one was shot. Few were arrested. All that happened was discomfort. (No, I'm not downplaying pepper spray. I caught a whiff of it once and it was tough.) However, when you do your best to stir up a riot by throwing things at police and security people, then you shouldn't be upset at a proportionate response.

My position is that they should have NOT thrown things at police.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Just Me]

69. It's tough, but try not to get too personal as that's also a RW tactic,...

Yes?

We should examine the top five RW tactics. We should examine those tactics closely.

Doncha' think? :bounce:

[AliciaKeyedUp]

77. I have yet to see you make a post worthy of response

But I will do it anyway for the folks in the crowd.

Just because I oppose idiots attacking police and making us look bad, doesn't mean I don't support the protest fully. What I can't stand is those who expect everyone to think in lockstep with them.

[sierrajim]

45. It's a FUCKING BIG CAN

Something like this.http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/tank.htm

[DrWeird]

33. That's what Bush said when he invaded Iraq.

A few of them caused 9-11.

[jonnyblitz]

51. ummm...so you spray the whole crowd.?

many who got sprayed I am sure didnt throw things. when in doubt just get em all, I guess. :eyes:

[kslib]

87. A reply to all posts like this

and not a "singled out" response. Did you expect the police to politely ask "okay, I just got hit with something. Not really sure what it is, but I do have to assume the worst. Who threw it, so I can spray you? Just come forward, in front of the crowd please. That's right. Now, bow your head, so you don't get hurt, even though you didn't afford me the same opportunity. Okay, just a little spray now...."

Seriously. When you're a cop in a big city, constantly being shat upon by people who want to do you harm and don't like you ('cause your "the man"---at least until the person needs you, then you're just too slow) you have to assume the worst. In hindsight, if it was a snowball, then the reaction was too much, but perhaps he/she was just trying to prevent a riot, where many more innocent civilians would get hurt. The sad part is that the country is so divided that riots COULD happen at political events which mix the most passionate people of both sides. Yes, I support the protesters, especially their message, but why would you throw something at a law enforcement officer? Do you assume that he/she's right wing, just because they are doing their job protecting the parade watchers? How about a protest without throwing stuff or any other acts that are perceived as violence? It is more effective, because the protesters are seen as peaceful people, just demanding their right to protest, and fighting for a cause. Throwing stuff makes you look like a bad 3rd grader, IMHO. By the way, thanks to the ex-cop who posted here. It doesn't get said enough, you make us safer, and often get no recognition, or get hassled for it.

[Be Brave]

54. This is exactly what happens in a police state.

C'mon. What possible objects could those people have thrown to justify pepper spray?

[Cronus Protagonist]

68. I saw it - they threw snowballs

Hardly dangerous, and the protestors were fenced in too.




http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
Buttons for brainy people - educate your local freepers today!

[FreeStateDemocrat]

8. Only in America, land of free and home of the brave.

[Maine-i-acs]

14. Heroes, all of 'em.

Nominate this for Picture of the Year.
Give that boy a Medal of Freedom. Take one from General Franks if you have to.

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

21. MSNBC had on their website hundreds of protesters. I wasn't

there, but the pictures look more like thousands. As usual, undercounting. Jerks.

[uppityperson]

22. Bush parade didn't get within a block of here.

Big bleacher stand of people and a street was between these guys and *. They threw stuff at the police, no way anything was thrown 1 block to where the SS motorcade was. However, a bit of this fence was briefly broken open before secured again. All any protestor would have had to do is run past 3 lines of police, across a street, around a big bleacher full of * supporters, through another couple lines of police, and past the secret service people to get to Mr. Bush's enclosed, bulletproof limosine. So, what were the police to do? Beside that, they burned a flag.(sarcasm)

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

28. Burn in hell, *

[theboss]

30. Good rule of thumb: Don't throw things at the President.

Actually, don't throw things at anyone. But if you throw things at the President, you are probably going to get your ass beat by someone.

[Dangerman]

43. Not even eggs?

:grr:

[MisterP]

46. or protest at all

or disagree

[theboss]

48. Right. Because protesting and throwing shit is the same thing

I remember MLK constantly throwing eggs at Alabama state troopers.

[DrWeird]

52. Hey, police were just doing their job then too.

Crowd control:



:eyes:

[LoZoccolo]

63. Thank you for ignoring the point, thus conceding it.

Great job, specially since there is a legitimate question about excessive force.

:thumbsup:

[Just Me]

65. MLK mostly threw around his weight,...so did Gandhi.

:loveya:

Both were bruised and abused BUT they never, ever quit!!!

[MissBrooks]

86. MLK? Eggs?

I have no idea what you're talking about.
I don't think MLK ever threw eggs at State Troopers - or anyone, for that matter.

He fought with dignity, not eggs. He fought with words, not snow balls. He fought with deeds, not "anarchy".

How about Gandhi? Did he throw eggs?
He fought with Peace.

What are we doing? Throwing eggs at the President?

We should fight with dignity, words, deeds, and live through peace.

[tinonedown]

37. Sad

Truly sad.

[txaslftist]

41. Didn't they have any dogs or firehoses?

Cheap bastards. Pepperspray is like, two bucks a can.

[G_j]

47. another pic

from Reuters (sorry it's so small)

[Minstrel Boy]

57. "Enemy of the State"

:cry:

[deutsey]

58. Damn...a friend of mine and I just missed this

We were there deciding whether we wanted to stand in line to go through security. Everything was cool when we left...protesters were outnumbering Bush supporters, but there everyone was milling around peacefully.

[SmokingJacket]

59. Birmingham 1963

Look familiar?

[Biased Liberal Media]

93. You know, that's exactly what I thought of

when I saw them spraying the crowd with pepper spray!!!

Ironic, isn't it?

[tlcandie]

70. We really need to learn NOT to throw things at authority figures

or officials anymore less we become like the Palistineans who throck rocks and get mowed down randomly with bulldozers or bullets.

Those in authority always need a one-up on those they are trying to control/dominate....

If those in control would learn to allow free speech people wouldn't feel the need to VENT their upsetness/frustration that they have to keep bottled in because it isn't okay to speak about it/display signs/banners /stickers/t-shirts or whatever anymore to show they do not support nor stand behind the absurdity of this government and those who put them into office!

Keep the pressure valve closed long enough and it will explode in not so nice ways... how about that for a rule of law?!

[progressivebydesign]

72. WHY are Americans herded behind fences to begin with??

Bush blathers about LIBERTY for other countries. How about us?????????????????????????????

Pepper spray would kill me. I have a severe allergy to hot peppers.. I cannot even be in the room when someone is charring them for spicy dishes.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

78. You really can't be serious...

Security has been a reality for every president. As threats have become harder to track, security has gotten tighter.

FDR met with Winston Churchill in VA during WWII and had 3,000 soldiers guarding the meeting. So what?

[Just Me]

98. Of course, "fencing-in" Americans is a very serious sign of the times.

It's a sign that desperation in on the rise,...a desperation between "the people" who are supposed to be free and hopeful and are NEITHER and a government which is becoming increasing oppressive.

Of course,...Alicia,...that particular struggle simply does not register with you.

Instead of focusing upon "drugging" the symptoms of an insecure/desperate/angry country,...why aren't you addressing WHY WE HAVE BECOME such an insecure and desperate and angry country?

Have you even considered the possibility that the American people are HURTING,...they are struggling,...they are rendered "worthless" by a commercial corporate world,...they are in that state of "cognitive dissonance" which renders them vulnerable and gullible to manipulation,...and, frankly, you seem to be advocating for those who are taking advantage of or hell I don't know maybe you are simply a member of those who are rendered gullible by the intentional infliction of cognitive dissonance by their governance.

I might add,...I may be highly educated,...but I live in rural America. I am part of the community and am not "labelled" as an "elitist" or "intellectual" although I have been complimented as "smart" and "caring".

[AliciaKeyedUp]

103. Signs of the times change with the times

It's a sign of threat. That's not desperation necessarily. It's just a natural response to threat.

The people are free, but they are not hopeful.

I don't see an overwhelmingly oppressive government -- yet. But I'd be lying if I said I didn't worry about it.

Of course the American people are hurting. I think we are still in shock from 9-11 frankly. And we are overwhelmed by a rapidly changing world, just as we have at other times in the past.

I am not advocating for anyone on any side of any issue to take advantage of one another. I am bothered that you think so.

I have a college degree that I even use a couple days of the week, though much of what I do at work is mundane or boring. I also am caring, but know as all mothers know that I must first care for my own children.

[Just Me]

104. Alicia, living a life in fear is not a life.

Whether you acknowledge it or not,...your own fear influences your children,...our children.

Meanwhile, you seem to fully "buy" into this administration's "fear-mongering" when you and I and our children have a far greater risk of being killed by a car wreck, a bolt of lightening, a chance encounter with a deer than we do those "terrorists" which this neoCONimperialist regime has flooded our subconscious as the greatest danger.

Please, please,...take several steps back and look at the big picture.

You know that I don't seek to nominalize your feelings,...but, I must challenge your perception.

Okay?

[cureautismnow]

73. Gassing His Own People...

Will the U.N. impose sanctions on us to try to get us to overthrow this maniacal dictator? :shrug:

[baldguy]

74. Welcome to BUSHworld

Freedom of speech is a quaint, old-fashioned and outmoded idea.

[liveoaktx]

94. Watch Democracy Now TV Today if you want your eyes opened

There is some extremely graphic footage the DN folks took that included cops spraying protestors, beating people with sticks, and pretending to be protestors.

[Sgent]

96. We'll...

Pepper spray is an accepted form of police use of force. Therefore it gets used.

In NOLA during Mardi Gras, they don't use crowd type force -- they beat the living sh*t out of the offender, and arrest anyone who causes a disruption of any type, and hold them until after the event with no bail (usually).

I happen to like the second option, but their would be lawsuits if done in DC.

[Just Me]

97. I take it that you are NOT an advocate of non-violent alternatives.

A poster stated (I'm paraphrasing) that the forceful oppression of free speech simply is a pressure-cooker for the explosion of violence.

I believe any violence waged against fundamental civil and/or human rights is an invitation to and incitation of a cycle of violence.

Maybe you would feel perfectly great about being subjected to physical abuse for throwing a snowball at someone's car or for another's actions in throwing a can of pop.

:shrug:

[Palacsinta]

99. I was there.....

at 14th and Pennsylvania Ave. and we were angry. They had stopped admitting people through the security checkpoints. We were standing at the security fences asking why we couldn't come in. We would have gone through securtiy, I was fully prepared to.....but we weren't allowed in! ACCESS DENIED! We started chanting "This is NOT democracy!" and banging on the fence.........some guys opened one of the panels and started through............then we got sprayed. It hurt........burned and made you choke and cough. I was not one who was going to try to break through the fence or throw things, but I got sprayed anyway, a middle-aged American woman who wanted to participate in the protest.............and it was so MADDENING to be ignored! We never got an answer as to why we were not allowed in! Clearly, there was plenty of room! I did not expect to stand right on the parade route street edge, but like at any crowded parade area, I though at least I would have a place to stand, even if it was 'way back, NOT in a cage!!!

[tedzbear]

102. They wanted the protesters to look like a small group...

That's why they wouldn't let you in.

[parentalalienation]

100. WTF is Right

What happened to the first amendment? Didn't that president guy just promise to uphold our constitutional rights? Oh wait, he was talking about the GW Bush version of the Constitution.

[tedzbear]

101. Too bad someone didn't hit a bullseye on limo roof with an egg....

...that's the only complaint I have about these demonstrations. I guess it was too risky.