At what point will I no longer be welcome on DU?

[Sterling]

Sorry guys this is getting a little tough to take. Hillary is for faith based initiatives, we can't discuss 9-11 in GD anymore in spite of the fact that a poll of the possibility of it being an inside job would show a majority of DUers think it is very possible.

I can't hold my tongue to some of what I see going on in the party and foresee that I will have to work against SOME democrats in the next four years as much as the NEO cons.

I ask because I spend a lot of time here and feel a connection to it. I have developed friends ships with long time members and feel I personally (like many many others) have helped promote DU and make it what it is with my money, input and word of mouth and written promotion.

I feel like that the community is owed the right to breath and grow according to the beliefs of the community's members. Should be able to honestly react to events without fearing banishment from our friends and community.

The next four years will involve a lot of soul searching for most DUers in terms of who they trust in out party and how to go about contributing in a way that will not undercut their beliefs without handing more power than we have to over to the neo cons.

OK this thread is dumb, maybe I just need to find a new board and get over it?

Sorry to waste your time. I just want to be able to be free to talk about what we all want to talk about, this is making me crazy.

[LoZoccolo]

1. They banned MIHOP discussions?

I did not know that. Not that I was ever a MIHOPer.

[Sterling]

5. They all go to the dungeon now.

It is really frustrating. I am not a fucking lunatic and I would appreciate not being treated like one here.

I think we can all handle discussing the very real cover up of 9-11. If we can't do that openly I don't see a point to even having a political party at all. It's bad enough we can't get many of our Dem's to even acknowledge the elephant in the room now if a rational thread on the subject is started it is thrown into something with a very condescending title "left over archives" or something like that.

I am wondering if DU is trying to tell me to fuck off?

If that is the case a simple PM or email will do. If DU thinks I am a nut and make them look bad I would like to know so I can find somewhere else to spend 15 hours a week.

[Just Me]

38. Maybe I missed investigations into 9/11 being shut down.

:shrug:

My greatest frustration has had more to do with "sinking threads" of pertinence being swallowed up by silly shit having to do with what people are wearing or "HATE" threads against everyone OTHER than the neoCONimperialists that are ruining our freakin' country.

Geez, please don't leave.

[Sterling]

59. It's really not about leaving.

I might still check news here even if i find a new place to post. I just feel like being a DUer (DUers understand what this means)is something that may not be able to be part of my identity anymore.

[ZombieNixon]

20. Err...what're MIHOP and LIHOP?

I f33l stoopid.

[alittlelark]

27. In reference to 9-11, the b*sh admin.

'Let It Happen On Purpose' or 'Made It Happen On Purpose'

[Stephanie]

28. Made It Happen On Purpose

Let It Happen On Purpose

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=125

BushCO, at the very least, looked the other way rather than acted to stop the terrorist attacks on 9/11, because the attacks served their strategic interests. That is LIHOP. Some think they took a more active role. That would be MIHOP.

[ZombieNixon]

30. Right. Thanks.

[Sanity Claws]

2. I hope you never become unwelcome

I was also disheartened to hear Hillary support faith based initiatives. Appalling.
In any event, I hope this site continues to welcome all democratic voices, not just that of a segment.

[papau]

3. do you want agreement or discussion? Is DU a Dem site or does it

have its own political platform?

Working against SOME democrats in the next four years is what the primary is all about.

Hillary is for faith based initiatives, as am I as long as the gov does not fund relig services or training.

Must one be against those of faith - or better said would be against faith orgs having a separate sponsored org that does good deeds and tries for the good deed grants from the government, the same good deed grants from the gov that non-faith sponsored orgs ask for?

[Sterling]

10. have its own political platform

I want to be able to say Hillary Clinton is a Carpet bagging Bitch and betrayed my vote and I will work against her at EVERY level of politics without getting banned.

I would also like to be able to read a thread on the 9-11 cover up without being made to feel I am embarrassing the site.

I can handle debate. In fact that is why I read DU. I like to see people openly discuss things in an intellectually honest way. I am feeling like that is being curtailed.

[noamnety]

47. there's a difference between debate

and calling someone a Carpet bagging Bitch.

Spewing random hatred and calling people bitches is not the same as expressing dismay at supporting faith based initiatives. From this post, I don't know which you were doing, but "carpet bagging bitch" doesn't scream "openly discussing things in an intellectually honest way" to me.

just saying.

[Just Me]

What's the real problem?

I take back my previous post.

What's happening with you?

If you are concerned about being a valued member,...your concerns are just plain wrong.

What's happening?

[Richard D]

4. IMHO

I think it's vital we entertain all the various ideas possible. Personally I want to know the truth, whether or not it fits into the way I wish to view the world. If I can't here all sides of an issue, then I've become rigid in my beliefs. Not a good thing at all.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

55. It's not "because she accepts faith" and you know that

It's because she gave the nod of approval to Bush's "charity" chicanery.

[NMDemDist2]

6. I doubt I'll get banned because mostly I am hanging out in the

cooking and gardening groups

I seem to have lost my fire. I am mildly pleased when Kerry sends me an email and I hope he "damn(s) the torpedoes, full speed ahead(s)" but I'm not holding my breath

I think the whole of DU is dealing with what is a major grief/trauma episode, each in our own ways. Losing Kephedra didn't help, just cast the pall darker

I hope by spring, we will all be able to regain our sense of balance and humor and take up the fight with love, compassion and plain common sense that is the deep root and mainstay of the Democratic Party

[Moloch]

7. You don't have to be a Democrat

to post here on DU, but you do have to be a progressive. We even welcome left-leaning Libertarians here.

PS: There is a forum you can discuss 9/11 in
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=125

[Bunny]

14. Yeah, there is a 9/11 forum.

I don't know why things relating to it shouldn't be discussed there.

[Sterling]

17. Is it possible to make that whole routine a little less marginalizing?

It happened after the tsunami hype and it seems like we have coward down to the RWers accusations that we are all crazy "Conspiracy Theorists".
If 9-11 is not general discussion in an age where it is used as the justification for just about anything?

Frankly the 9-11 forum seems to filter out all the normal people who want to talk about and leaves just the nuts that DU seems to be so frightened of. You know the trolls here that have an anti semite twist to their agenda.

Some of the best stuff to every come from these boards came from 9-11 cover up related threads.

PNAC for example?

Anyway I am offended by the idea that am lumped in with a bunch of lunatics just for sharing an opinion that is widely held on this board. We may all be nuts but we are Skinners nuts so I wish he was not so ashamed of us.

[Moloch]

26. You will have to ask Skinner about that in the

Ask The Administrators forum. I'm just a moderator and I can't change the rules here.

[Sterling]

44. I am not sure I have the energy left.

I figure he already knows and has made up his mind. It is his site, I just think it is a shame to do this to it.

[Minstrel Boy]

45. Yes. Behind the door, behind the door of the

"Archived & Leftover Forums."

Why, in this world, does "9/11, Military Affairs, and Terrorism" belong there?

[ConservativeDemocrat]

8. Honest question? Honest answer.

The majority of readers on the D.U. hear enough Democratic bashing to last a lifetime, they certainly don't need to hear it from disgruntled Greens. They hear enough right-wingers on the M.S.M. trying to tear down liberal credibility by associating it with unproven or completely disproven conspiracy theories.

So if the point of your question is really: "At what point will posts bashing Democrats who don't meet my idea of perfection, be met with support and silent acceptance", or "At what point will a conspiracy theory be met with universal acclaim", I'm afraid the answer is never.

On the other hand, I'm hardly "welcome" in the D.U. either. And I don't particularly care. I call things as I see them. And if people don't like it, they can go to hell.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Sterling]

13. Lets take a poll?

Lets see how many DUers think we should stop acknowledging who much trouble we are in when our politicians fail so miserable at making an effort to justify our support.

[GreenPartyVoter]

9. I dunno. They let me hang here, and with a Nader avatar to boot. I think

the censorship complaints (from some folks here in general) are overblown. :shrug:

------------------------------------
Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/

[dad]

34. I was almost banned for being a Nader supporter

Perhaps you weren't as vocal as I was. I'm certain to be banned sooner or later I suppose... I support Nader, Kucinich, Sharpton.
Green Voter, at least Greens can get on the ballot in your state. Imagine this - I have NEVER seen a Green on the ballot for any office in NC, truth! I am the voter without a candidate.

[GreenPartyVoter]

40. They tombstoned my Dad, another ardent Nader supporter, it's true

But for the most part I think they have been pretty fair.

I am sorry you can't vote your conscience in your state. Do you have Socialists, at least? I vote for them when Greens aren't available. Dems are my third choice, unless they are like Dennis, in which case they get bumped to the top of the list. :)

------------------------------------
Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/

[BlueJazz]

11. I've always enjoyed your posts and questions (and Answers).

You really shouldn't have to feel that you can't "speak your mind".
.... especially when you have so much to say.

[Lydia Guerra]

12. Sterling: your question deserves an honest reply

from the DU admins as well as other DU bloggers. I've wondered the same myself as many/most of the dems in office are members of a power elite that cares not much for civil rights. Where is the spine? Where the teeth, the heart, the guts? Do they walk the talk or just talk the talk in order to protect their own pork?

Never-the-less, I trust there is room for all who seek to speak truth to power, who seek justice and work toward democracy. As Rev. Jackson said at LaFayette Park on Jan 6 we must form a COALITION that includes folks from every party, group, etc (of course I'm paraphrasing).

[Octafish]

15. Has DU become like the "America..."

..."Love it or leave it" crowd? Are the more observant and vocal members being marginalized for stating what's what and what's wrong regarding the Bush Family Evil Empire and being called "Democracy Haters" for it? Or is DU being shaped to be a mainstream Democratic organ, say like Joe Lieberman?

And that's NOT what REAL Democrats are about - real Democrats like you, Sterling! You believe in free and open discussion. You KNOW knowledge is power. You KNOW that's the first step needed for progress. And you KNOW the Truth is what will change things for the better in America.

Please, stay and fight. For whatever reasons, there's been a lot of pressure not to talk about certain subjects ("Hey! Conspiracy nut! Shut up!"). It's no accident that silencing them benefits the Bushes and their toadies. That's where your voice and wisdom and brains and backbone come in, Sterling. DU needs you and all good DUers to work together to make the America we all love better.

[Sterling]

22. I feel like I am being "shaped"

That is the word I am looking for. If Hillary turns into a douche it's not my fault. If Bush is covering up 9-11 and most of us see it why is that my fault and why should we be made to feel like outcasts on our own site.

DU has meant a lot to me. The idea I could be banned for speaking my mind or that threads I enjoy are being filtered as part of an agenda to make DU look more "mainstream" is very stressful.

I need to figure out what these changes mean to me. They may make it impossible for me to continue being a "DUer". That will make me very sad.

[poe]

39. let me suggest as a relatively new DUer....

with absolutely zero allegiance to slavishly adhere to any party and zero confidence in the Dem party overall or even the notion of democracy (i know it makes everyone fuzzy to use such platitudes as 'take back our democracy') that indeed you are being shaped and/or censored. sadly this trend seems to occur in most organizations. also let me suggest your post is excellent and not a waste. can anyone give me one piece of evidence that suggests the democratic party is worth putting energy into. it is our entire form of governance that is the deeper problem and beyond that perhaps the entire white western habit of mind which if you'll examine any western society you will see stratification and destruction of the natural world. what we get with the best of the democrats is two minutes of dissent and a lifetime of capitulation. there are a few exceptions like wellstone, mckinney, hinchey waters, but note the term 'exceptions. i personally feel like this forum has tremendous possibilities and hope it doesn't become constrained. keep thinking for yourself. working within the parameters of a diseased system to get to health is a form of self delusion and will keep you sick. create entirely new arrangements.

[Sterling]

56. Thx great posts.

"can anyone give me one piece of evidence that suggests the democratic party is worth putting energy into."

Right now not much can be said for our party that does not rely on fear of the neo cons as persuasion.

I so desperately want to see that change. I can't accept things as they are though.

[WhoDoYouTrust]

23. Thank you , Oct!

You speak for many of us!

[leftchick]

32. very well said Octafish!

and please don't leave Sterling. I have noticed the absence of many older DUers from the very post Sept. 11 days. It sucks! The Democrats NEED that type of discussion. I need it!

[kohodog]

37. Agreed, please stay

DU seems to have lost too many good people in the last few months. The media has managed to give DU a tin foil label and many good discussions have been deep sixed.

It's a shame, but I don't think DU deserves or wants to become the anthisis of freeperville, so I sort of understand.

[Sterling]

48. Maybe Skinner can be swayed with a good argument.

I can't do it myself and I am not sure I have the energy left to fight with the admins on how to run their site. I just think it is a shame to suppress or filter discussion for this reason. The open dialog is what attracted me to DU after 9-11. It was here I read most of the news that made me think 9-11 was a cover up.



Now I have to go hang out in some obscure part of the site to discuss it because I am making the site look bad? That is some serious irony.

[The Doctor.]

18. Dude, if you ever feel you can't express an honest opinion...

then it's the fault of the community, not you.

If what you say is outrageous, you should be told it is and why.
If your argument holds merit, it should be duly considered.
If it does not, a reasonable person would make the effort to re-examine their position.

That's part of the whole point of free speech.

I have to get through some serious shitstorms on other boards sometimes, but my arguments are solid enough that the derision I deal with is meaningless to me.

It is sad that one cannot seriously discuss 9/11 nowadays. If it is true that there was government involvement, then silencing discussions will hinder the truth.

I believe that the mods are simply trying to avoid the 'conspiracy theorist' labelling of DU. I can understad that.

Thank you for venting - I've felt the same about other issues.

[Sterling]

41. avoid the 'conspiracy theorist' labeling of DU

I understand that but unfortunately Bush and friends are very conspiracy oriented. That is not my fault. Getting us into Iraq was a conspiracy of lies and deception. I can't help it and I won't ignore it because it looks bad.

I think it comes off as weak to suppress the discussion and I agree that the cream of the discussion rises to the top and that has a great value to people who are interested in learning and understanding.

That is the quality I feel has at times been lost here and I will not be able to deal with it in the next four years.

[Shanty Oilish]

19. Do what I did

"I spend a lot of time here and feel a connection to it."
Same here. Then I found out that not sharing in the general adoration of one primary candidate (not Kerry) could get me stung repeatedly and driven from the colony. I was never tombstoned, I just shut up, quit posting and found other places to spend a lot of time in, feeling connection with. Now I just lurk here. Nobody misses me, and I'm contented.

Find a new board, you say, and get over it? Good advice. And don't love anything that doesn't love you back. :)

[Sterling]

35. I feel like that is where I am headed, not because of people who disagree

I just want to be free to discuss what I want respectfully without worrying about expressing my true feelings.

It will be tough, Ihave made a lot of friends here and will miss it. I have nothing against Skinner, I am not sure he even understands why people would feel this way. I just know I can't go through the same thing I did during the last 4 years. I feel like I sacrificed my beliefs partly because I did not want to get banned from DU.

I know it's crazy but If it were not for DU I probably would have voted my conscience and not for Kerry. In retrospect I would have felt better about that. I don't want to be controlled by anyone and I don't want to be afraid of being cast out away from my friends because I can't support certain people.

The whole 9-11 thing is a little different. DU used to "neutral" on the subject. I thought that was a great credit to Skinner and the community in general. Now the site seems to support suppressing that discussion as official policy in spite of the fact that a huge percentage of DUers find it legit.

[Rowdyboy]

21. The rule of thumb I try to use is this...I'm a guest at a party here at DU

While I do contribute financially a little, its no more than bringing your own beer to a party. Skinner, Earlg and Elad are the hosts and I know what they expect. I have no particular "rights", but as long as I remember that I'm a guest here, and act accordingly, I'll be okay.

It's going to be tough for you here sometimes because there are many DUers who are (surprise!) Democrats. I like Hillary Clinton. I'm against faith based initiatives but that one issue certainly isn't enough to make me turn on her. It pisses many people off when they see people trashing Barack Obama, or Wes Clark, or John Kerry on a Democratic website. While some posters here are MIHOP or LIHOP, the VAST majority are not. I'm really glad to see some sanity offered by the administrators.

[Sterling]

24. the VAST majority are not

Take apoll. Last time we did LIHOP/MIHOP was the majority.

[Rowdyboy]

25. Edited........not worth bothering with

[Minstrel Boy]

33. You're wrong about this:

"While some posters here are MIHOP or LIHOP, the VAST majority are not."

Every poll I've seen here put LIHOP/MIHOP winning handily, with something like 75% - 80%.

I know responding to a poll is not necessarily a representative sample of the registered users, but how else can we gauge such a thing?

Are you saying you're part of the "silent majority"?

[Rowdyboy]

53. I honestly must have missed that poll....If that figure is correct, I'm

surprised and disappointed.

First, let me make sure we're on the same page. MIHOP translates to "George Bush deliberately planned and carried out the attack on 9/11 to insure he would be re-elected"; LIHOP means "George Bush knew of the attack in advance and allowed it to be carried out to insure he would be re-elected".

If those definitions are correct, and if 75-80% of DU agrees with that, then I am surprised. I hate the man passionately but its very hard to imagine allowing 3000 people to die deliberately when he could have been a hero by exposing and thereby thwarting the attack.

And no, I don't claim to speak for anyone but myself and I'm more centrist than the average DUer.

[Minstrel Boy]

60. No, they don't mean that.

The way I understand them, LIHOP and MIHOP have nothing at all to do with Bush personally or his re-election.

[NYC]

29. I hope you and your ideas will always be welcome here.

:hi:

[Skip Intro]

31. I agree with everything you said

I didn't know that MIHOP LIHOP stuff had been banned from GD (all forums?).


.

[Catherine Vincent]

36. I think there is a thread specifically for 9/11 discussions.

[Sterling]

43. Plz read the whole thread if you want to know why that is a problem.

nt

[seemslikeadream]

50. That's just the problem, isn't it?

There's a place around here somewhere to talk about it but where is it? It's hidden in the underground of the underground.

[seemslikeadream]

42. Please stay Sterling

I know how you feel. It's been difficult not to be able to talk about certain things in GD for me too.


in this proud land we grew up strong
we were wanted all along
I was taught to fight, taught to win
I never thought I could fail

no fight left or so it seems
I am a man whose dreams have all deserted
I've changed my face, I've changed my name
but no one wants you when you lose

don't give up
'cos you have friends
don't give up
you're not beaten yet
don't give up
I know you can make it good

though I saw it all around
never thought I could be affected
thought that we'd be the last to go
it is so strange the way things turn

drove the night toward my home
the place that I was born, on the lakeside
as daylight broke, I saw the earth
the trees had burned down to the ground

don't give up
you still have us
don't give up
we don't need much of anything
don't give up
'cause somewhere there's a place
where we belong

rest your head
you worry too much
it's going to be alright
when times get rough
you can fall back on us
don't give up
please don't give up

'got to walk out of here
I can't take anymore
going to stand on that bridge
keep my eyes down below
whatever may come
and whatever may go
that river's flowing
that river's flowing

moved on to another town
tried hard to settle down
for every job, so many men
so many men no-one needs

don't give up
'cause you have friends
don't give up
you're not the only one
don't give up
no reason to be ashamed
don't give up
you still have us
don't give up now
we're proud of who you are
don't give up
you know it's never been easy
don't give up
'cause I believe there's the a place
there's a place where we belong

-Gabriel


Like Octafish said we need you!

:grouphug:

[earth mom]

46. I'm fairly new and it bothers me to read this

Though I have noticed that certain things get shot down rather quickly. I've been progressively disappointed in Kerry since the election and apparently that's a no no around here. Even mild posts against Kerry are turned into "drama queen" threads or worse, people are accused of being rethuglican, which most likely isn't true. Frankly I found this to be rather mean spirited since most of the Kerry posts were by people like myself who just need to express heart felt feelings of disappointment that there's no other outlet for.

Isn't this a place that is supossed to celebrate democracy? Isn't democracy also diversity? If so, then we should be able to discuss 9/11 or Hillary and faith based initiatives pro or con. The only time posts should be shot down are when they are pro * or pro rethuglican. We should be able to discuss all topics important to democrats whether some agree with a viewpoint or not. Otherwise we are no better than the rethugs....and have been drinking way too much kool aid. Gawd forbid!!!

[Sterling]

54. What if we just can't do it anymore?

That is what I am saying. I have not changed. I still believe the same things I did that made me a democrat. However because I found DU and pay attention I have become aware that some of the people I used to believe in are sellouts and enablers of the worst kind.

I wish DU would be about fixing that stuff instead of making me accept it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

49. Sterling, I have a fucking BOATLOAD of sympathy for you..really

Mostly because I know of your other work, DUTV and the like. I think there's LOADS of room for disagreement with the direction of things in the party. I think there's LOADS of rational discussion available regarding LIHOP and MIHOP and lots of evidence pointing to the fact that it could be one or the other. I also think this board gets trolled BIGTIME by people posting the most insane shit and sending it to the media, thereby giving us a black eye.

If we were TRULY underground, where the discussion didn't occur in an aquarium it would probably be easier to discuss all of this...but I also know that the disagreements with the party and the MIHOP/LIHOP issues are exploited by people who register here simply to sew bullshit, derision and division.

For the record, I am not terribly impressed with Hillary and would be more than happy to never have another Clinton in the WH or in a position of power in the Dem party..just for what they cost us in support from organized labor alone.

Hang in there and I hope you're always welcome. We've had our vehement disagreements...but viva la vehement disagreements.

[Sterling]

51. "insane shit and sending it to the media"

Sure, and the tactic works best when we shut up as a result. I think the kooks have always been exposed as kooks. I don't want the MSM to control how our message boards works.

It's a sign of fear. It is kind of taking away the best feature of DU. Our ability to discuss anything rationally. I have learned so much from my fellow DUers. If it were not for DU I might not think 9-11 was a cover up. So now I am a liability? I just can't go along with that without losing respect for myself. Thx for the post though. I know you are being sincere.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

57. I honestly don't know the answer to your questions but I will say this

It's a dilemma for the following reasons:

The manner in which a movement picks up momentum is by gaining trust.
Trust is a function of credibility.

So on the one hand, we want to get people to wake up..but how do you get people to wake up if they don't trust or believe you.

How do you get people to unify if we're constantly knocking ourselves down.

You are right..I am sincere and I don't know the answers..I DO know it's easy as hell to come here and post KERRY IS A SKULL AND BONES FASCIST APPEASER BASTARD and pretend to be in partnership with us all the while snickering and simply causing shit.

I don't know how much any of that matters..but that's just what I see.

[greatauntoftriplets]

52. Speaking for myself...I always look forward to your posts.

I hope you stay, Sterling.

:hi:

[poe]

58. the entire range of debate in american politics....

has been castrated. keep in mind the rest of the world wouldn't think your hairbrained conspiracy theories are so kooky as they happen to be witnessing the end result firsthand. if you haven't already read my earlier response to your post please do. and thanks for bringing this up. i have no ideological ties to party politics, things will never change for the better in US until grass roots movements take hold and they will never take hold as long as energies are being sucked out by the single party system (dem-rep). the evidence is all around. create new institutions everybody.

[Moderator]

61. Locking......

If you have a question about
the way DU is run or how particular
topics are handled, please ask your
question or voice your concerns in
the Ask The Administrators forum.

Only an Administrator can answer
these questions.


Thank you.


DU Moderator