Someone Explain To Me... What Is WRONG With These Christians...

[arwalden]

... who obsess over homosexuality? I'm gay and I'll bet that I think less about homosex than these lunatic Christians do. Why are they so compulsively attracted to it? Why the preoccupation with it?

-- Allen


CNN Headline: "Christians issue gay warning on SpongeBob video"
http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/TV/01/20/sponge.bob.reut/index.html

LOS ANGELES, California (Reuters) -- Conservative Christian groups accuse the makers of a video starring SpongeBob SquarePants, Barney and a host of other cartoon characters of promoting homosexuality to children.

[Cuban_Liberal]

1. They're Christians in name only.

They're right-wing lunatics, in reality.

[curlyred]

3. we call them Chrinos

a la DINOS and RINOS....

[Cuban_Liberal]

4. Mind if I borrow the term?

:hi:

[Modem Butterfly]

28. NO!

Don't call them that! Why would you want to do something like that to a perfectly good style of pants?

:grr:

[Maat]

34. Do you mind if I use that?

I love Chrinos - 'cause that is what they are (think, certain relatives/friends of mine).

[geniph]

52. I've been using the term ConCINOs for years

Conservative-Christians-In-Name-Only. I keep hoping it'll catch on.

[Modem Butterfly]

6. I take issue with that

I'm not a Xian, but it seems to me that we can never really know what is in someone's heart. Thus, if someone claims to worship Christ (the definition of an Xian) then I, personally, don't feel comfortable saying that he or she doesn't.

Not trying to flame you, it's a trend I've noticed Repugs using for years ("Oh, Clintoon's not a REAL Xian").

[kweerwolf]

20. 'Worshiping Christ' is different than living by his teachings.

Seems to me the definition of a Christian is one who tries to live by Christ's teachings.

The fundamentalists/evangelicals that are the subject of this discussion could then be presumed to be "not Christians" since Jesus made no condemnation of homosexuality during his life as a teacher.

The fundies get their idea that it's OK to condemn gays and lesbians from misinterpretation of the Sodom and Gomorrah story, a few scattered verses in the Holiness Codes in Leviticus, and some of the writings of the Apostle Paul. While the Old Testament and the epistle portion of the New Testament are an important part of Christian history, they are not the words of Christ whom the fundies claim to follow.

[Modem Butterfly]

26. How can we judge?

It seems to me there's a great deal of room for interpretation in the teachings of Christ. People have been fighting and struggling and arguing over them for over two millenia now. And what's more, how can we speak with certainty about the lives of people whom we don't know?

I think it's comforting to be differentiate ourselves from someone who has something so basic as religion in common with us. I suppose that's why so many Xians claim Hitler was an atheist, a pagan, or a Satanist. But the fact remains that where there is no universal interpretation of Christ's teachings and where one is talking about a complete stranger, there can be no basis to judge.

If Fred Phelps calls himself a Xian, then I have no choice but to believe him. But that doesn't make him the sole arbiter of Xianity and it doesn't impugn other Xians.

[hfojvt]

32. In the Presbyterian church of my childhood

we used to sing "they will know we are Christians by our love". If I am reading someone's words, then they are no longer complete strangers, and I think it is fair to compare those words, of say, Fred Phelps, with the known teachings of Jesus. Doubtless, my interpretation of Jesus' teachings will not be definitive, but I think it would be quite a stretch to believe Hitler was a real Christian. No sane interpretation of Christianity is going to encompass genocide. It is unimportant to you to have an understanding of what it means, but it is not unimportant to a follower. Thus, even though I do not know JR Bush that well, and even though we are both members of the United Methodist Church, I feel that I know enough about him from his policies and speeches to be confident in saying that he is not a sincere or genuine Christian.

[Modem Butterfly]

43. "They'll know we're Xians by our Love"

I used to like to use that line when I was trolling right-wingers. It never failed to get a response. In the halcyon days of my youth, I was quite the troll monkey. Ah, a more innocent time. But I digress.

If I am reading someone's words, then they are no longer complete strangers

I couldn't disagree more. I certainly hope no one thinks they know my life from my DU posts!

:scared:

Doubtless, my interpretation of Jesus' teachings will not be definitive, but I think it would be quite a stretch to believe Hitler was a real Christian.

Hitler seemed to think he was. In fact, many of the Nazi's policies closely mirror the goals of the modern Xian conservative movement (school prayer, no abortion, no women working outside the home). But I do think it's fair to say that Hitler was an evil man with a radical interpretation of the Bible.

No sane interpretation of Christianity is going to encompass genocide.

To be fair, though, I don't believe Hitler used the Bible to justify "the final solution". In fact, he went to great lengths to hide it from the world. We equate the Nazis with the Holocaust and genocide, but at the time, they were but a means to an end, the end being the 1,000 year reign of the Third Reich. I'm not trying to minimize Holocaust, but I do think it's important to point out Hitler's context.

Thus, even though I do not know JR Bush that well, (snip) I feel that I know enough about him from his policies and speeches to be confident in saying that he is not a sincere or genuine Christian.

His speeches are written by someone else. His policies, too. The same holds true for every other politician as well. And the Bush family has spent an enormous amount of time, money, and effort on creating a false-front image for the media. You don't know him. I don't know him. After so many years, he may no longer even know himself.

[hfojvt]

65. I am parsed in the scales and found wanting

I did not say that I knew your life from your posts, but that you are not a "complete" stranger. How else do we get to know people? (Of course, that is taking words at face value, which may or may not be accurate)
You make a good point about the origins of his policies and speeches, but I do not buy it as an excuse. He cannot pass the buck that way. Even if he did not write the speech, by reading it, he is making it his, and thus he is responsible for the lies in the speech, even if he did not write the speech. Same with his policies. It is his name signed to the bills.
As for his false front, I thought that was the one I am seeing through. Obviously, I do not know him as well as his family or long time friends or associates do, but I know he exhibits a total disregard for the truth, and I think that is enough to make him a false Christian.

[Tafiti]

46. While I generally agree with what you are saying...

...I can't agree that "No sane interpretation of Christianity is going to encompass genocide." The concept of Manifest Destiny during the early years of America's founding was basically thought of as a biblical promise akin to the Promised Land for Moses and the Israelites ("...this land was MADE for you and me!"). This is something we as kids were all taught, if implicitly, like with the song lyrics. A religious motive is all it took for everyone to see the Native Americans as an impediment to realizing that "promise," and ridding ourselves of them (genocide) was a just and holy cause.

How many genuine Christians do you think fully endorsed or participated in our own period of genocide? Or was the ingenuity or insincerity of Christianity simply pandemic at that time? The same questions could be asked of the period of slavery, when Church support was widespread, not to mention the presence of the Christian community in the Ku Klux Klan.

It is easy to brush those incidents off as tragic mistakes, or faulty interpretations or practices of Christianity, but these "mistakes" are trending toward cyclical. Christians today, even some fundamentalists, think of themselves as more enlightened, and so do not desire to repeat the oversights of old. But here we are seeing a more subtle form of oppressive and hateful Christianity rearing its ugly head once again. If I were a Christian (as I once was, very much so), I would personally have a difficult time with this. In fact, I found it easier to wave it aside just as I described above. Maybe the old saying applies here, "The more things change, the more they stay the same."

[hfojvt]

63. very good points, but when was our own period of genocide?

I have read some numbers about the depopulation of Native Americans, but I would like to see that on a time-line. Did it happen in the 19th century or in the 17th? What actions on the part of the settlers were involved in various stages.
I know the Puritans fought the Pequot wars with ferocity, but I think that much was made of the atrocities, real or imagined, of the other side.
I refer in my mind to "Memoirs of a Sauk Swiss" and think of my ancestors and relatives settling in Wisconsin in the 1840s. They mention very little contact with Native Americans and also of being horrified by slavery. Doubtless it is different when you are raised as a Christian and a slave-owner, but I would call that a case of society co-opting Christianity rather than Christianity transforming society.

[Tafiti]

66. True. Perhaps "period" was a poor choice of words.

It was certainly a very gradual process, and took place on an ad hoc basis over a long period of time. We wanted their land, so we gave them an ultimatem - move elsewhere willingly, or we'll move you forcefully, killing you if we have to. This process was repeated when we eventually wanted the land they relocated to, etc. gradually moving westward.

I wasn't saying that everyone without exception embraced the idea, but it was widespread enough, and was official "policy", if you will, of the federal government. Andrew Jackson helped slaughter many, and he's an American hero, rewarded with his face on the 20.

By the way, that surprises me about Wisconsin. Native American populations were huge up there, as is evidenced by the plethora of Indian names of cities, rivers, etc. Perhaps they were largely gone by this point? I'm certainly no expert on this subject.

I think the important thing to consider is not what atrocities occurred on either side, but what caused them in the first place. It is well-documented that the Natives were very giving and peaceful people when the Europeans first arrived. In my view, they were certainly forced into a fighting stance, given what was happening to many of them. I would've fought to, and with a vengeance. They certainly can't be blamed for fighting back.

As to your last comment, I'm not so sure. The influence that Christianity has had on American political thought is much larger than you might think. I was surprised myself until I took a class on that very subject. Plus, the Bible has been used to justify just about every evil thing that's been done with the complicity of the Christian community - this was easy with slavery. Many of the "big names" had them, and Paul went out of his way to say that slaves should obey their masters and be good slaves, and if any escape, should be returned. Jesus, also, never had anything to say about it.

[hfojvt]

71. as far as the process goes

my reference was to a large part of the genocide being caused by Native American vulnerability to European diseases. Sometimes smallpox was used deliberately as a weapon and sometimes it was openly suggested. However, it is unclear to me if the decimation of the Native American was the result of total warfare or at least a large part of it was due to the unwitting transmission of viruses.
The part about the Bible being used to justify atrocities was sorta my point. At least a large part of the Bible is prophets exhorting people to behave better. However, their message can be co-opted for other reasons. Jesus was perhaps silent about slavery because it was not widely practiced by the Jews he was preaching to.

[Tafiti]

75. I suppose it could be argued either way...

...certainly it played a part in their decimation. I would think that, at first, they were unwittingly transmitting diseases. But I think they quickly realized it could be used as a weapon, and was, as you say, openly suggested. This would indicate to me that, yes, it was largely total warfare that caused their decimation, and biological warfare, as it were, was part of the European arsenal. I would assume this only because of the prevailing attitudes toward the Natives, which seemed to grow more hostile as time wore on (as more and more attempted to settle on their land).

I'm curious, though, as to the estimates experts give on how many in fact died from accidental disease transmission. Like I said, I'm no expert on this subject. Perhaps I tend to not give the Europeans the benefit of the doubt; given their history of conquest and their fervor in the "Christianizing" of native and tribal peoples, do they deserve it in the case of Native Americans?

[Maat]

35. Modem Butterfly, Kweerwolf ... somehow you're both right.

Maybe I will just stick with the 'Christian hard right' or 'the Religious Right Extremeists.'

[Taxloss]

22. I think it's acceptable.

More acceptable than tarring with a broad brush, which is what we might risk otherwise. The "Religious" "Right" badly needs a lesson in what Jesus said, and what he didn't say.

[htuttle]

2. You don't think about it as much as they do...

...because you aren't trying to repress those thoughts.

:shrug:

[Maat]

5. You must mean the Religious Right, or as you have up there,

hard-right Christians. And, I quite agree, they do seem to obsess about sexuality. Of course, if you grew up in the John Birch heartland, Orange County, Ca., like I did, you would realize that these guys are hell-bent (excuse the expression) on living TWO LIVES - while they obsess on sexuality-related matters. For example, my mother's boyfriend was loudly proclaiming conservative dogma as he was taking her to get an illegal abortion in San Francisco.

They just made me mad with their statements about the 'We Are Family' video referenced above. I'm going to buy two copies now - maybe ten. And I'll pass 'em out to my conservative hardright religious friends.

[wildwww2]

24. Orange County Ca. Where I saw more naked females at California Jam2

Than any where else at one time in my life. The John Bircher`s must of loved us liberals that day.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[Maat]

33. I see you know Orange County.

I think you kind of understand the dichotomy (polar-opposite kind of environment) I was raised in. Actually, it was fun. And the liberal, progressive laissez-faire part of me won out.

Peace and love, (Enjoy, Wildman!)

Ma'at
And Dean is my Chairman.

[JDPriestly]

7. They are bored.

Living the superficially moral life is boring -- the same woman or man, the same kids day in day out and they aren't even allowed to fantasize about anyone else or any different kind of life. Talking/hating/thinking about what they view as other people's immoral behavior gives fanatical rightwing Christians an excuse to almost fantasize. I suppose a sort of pleasure arises in them -- in a way, they fantasize by thinking about not having the fantasies they aren't supposed to allow themselves to have.

It's kind of "Don't Think of an Elephant" in the sexual area. Don't think about sex, so all they can think about is sex. Above all, don't think about homosexuality, so all they can think about is homosexuality.

[Maat]

37. This Master's in Psychology (and retired social worker) ..

believes that you have hit the nail on the head, JDPriestly. What you say is in keeping with my experiences.

[Karenina]

56. Naaaahhhh... Just 2 words:

CLOSET. CASES.

[soleft]

8. Straight sex is so repressed and terrifying to the fundamentalists

It's actually safer for them to talk, think about and attack homosexual sex because they can divorce themselves from it as if it's not something they do themselves.

[Ripley]

9. Why are they so vocal now?

I mean hell, Batman and Robin were highly suspect back in the 1960's, yet I don't recall any Wacky CC Group of closeted gays screaming about how the Dynamic Duo was spreading the homosexual agenda.

[BattyDem]

30. And let's not forget "Bert and Ernie" ...

Sesame Street's first gay couple. :eyes:

You know what I don't understand? Why do they always see a "homosexual agenda" (whatever the f*ck that means) in CHILDREN'S programming? "Tinky Winky is purple and has a triangle hat, so he MUST be gay!" WTF?!?!? What kind of sicko looks at a kid's show and sees sex in everything?! :shrug:

[KurtNYC]

60. They were busy opposing Civil Rights in the 1960s

They are more covert (only slightly) about their racism now but gays are the last openly hateable group in the country.

[jdj]

10. Ironically it's probably what attracted them to xtianity in the first

place. You know, Jesus in a huddle with 12 of his best friends...

That and the fact that they are blowhards and control freaks who need to run their mouths all the time.

Cause if it were just a gay thing, they'd probably just play contact sports and get off on that; it's the need to spew that puts them in christianity longing for a muscular, sweaty disciple to sponge off.

Hey, is this related to Bill O'Reilly and the loofah?

Sponges everywhere, look out...they are coming for you.

[keith the dem]

11. Money Money Money

These TV preachers prey on old homebound widows. Many who are truly religious. They scare them into sending in the retirement they worked for their whole life. It used to be communists, they're gone, so they need another victim. These bastards are truly thieves, just like the money changers Jesus threw out of the temple.

[Maat]

40. You know, that's the bottom line, Keith-the-Dem.

I don't for one minute believe that they really care one rat's behind about this piece of legislation or that amendment - only as it relates to the money flowing into their coffers.

I used to try to persuade clients to take care of their family first, and donate to causes such as buying toys for the social workers to distribute, if they felt they had to do something, because I knew every dime went to the kids that way.

I'd love to know how much salary Falwell, Robertson and Dobson collect from their 501-c-3 orgs (charitable orgs). And, if they don't collect much, then I'd love to take a look at the agreements they've signed ... somewhere along the lines of ... you promote my books for free and ...

It's all about power and money. The 'Jesus Christ' consciousness somehow gets lost there.

[Beetwasher]

12. They're All Gay And Hate Themselves Because Of It

So they repress it and take it out on people who are comfortable w/ their sexuality. They are mentally ill as a result.

[arwalden]

47. I'm Convinced That This Is The Case When It Comes To Phelps And

... folks like Ralph Reed. What better way to convince others that they are not gay than by attacking it. -- In fact I did the same thing when I was in junior high school and high school... I compensated for my own attraction to guys by ridiculing and tormenting classmates who we suspected of being gay.

[Avalux]

13. They are bitter, repressed, hollow people

who don't understand the teachings of Christ. They are not Christians, they are anti-Christians spreading intolerance and hatred.

[jonolover]

14. mmm....their religion?

Sorry to generalize, but that's the "problem" with proselytizing religions. You get people imposing their views on others with such authority and vengeance. I live by certain ideas of Hinduism and it is a non-proselytizing religion. If you're not born a Hindu, you can never become one. I know this mentality has its cons, but it is live-let-live kind of religion, which makes things easier.
Also, this is not to say that some "neo-Hindus" have pretty strong views about maintaing Hinduism as much as they can, but they still don't like to convert people to Hinduism.
Comments welcome. Thanks.

[Wisc Badger]

15. Phooey - I came out of that back ground and you know what?

I think you should be allowed to be able to love who you want, and that is between you and your GOd (whatever you percieve him/her to be).

I also have come to the notion that the state should but out of it.

I have this attitude now because, I have come to realize how much I love my wife and what a lucky man I am to be blessed with her company.

If I can love that deeply than it occurs to me that others can and do also. It than occured to me that gender may not be a barrier to loving a person on this level.

From there it was an easy step to believe that other should be allowed to love in peace (course multiple partners and underage might take some getting used to).

Any way my 2 cents.

Thank you.:pals: :headbang:

[wildwww2]

16. They have to have someone to demonize. Otherwise they might

stop and realize that they are twisting the living fuck out of a book called the bible. Jesus whose name they like to attach to their religion. Preached tolerance. And turn the other cheek. Not napalm the hell out of everyone you disagree with.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[CoffeeCat]

17. Fear...

Many of the RW Christians have been terrified into their views on homosexuality.

The leadership seems abnormally obsessed with being anti-homosexual and they feed the fear to the sheeple in the congregation.

After all, the line many conservatives give--is that if homosexuality is accepted--that marriage will be destroyed, the family will cease to exist and civilization will crumble.

Many are afraid.

I'd like to say that many of these RW Christans are horrible, ignorant people. Unforunately, that's untrue.

My daughter attends a Christan preschool and I have play dates with many parents like this. Many are truly kind, good-hearted people who just want the best for their kids and the country. Unfortunately, Bush has convinced them that he is a man of faith and morals. So, these people vote on those issues alone--because those issues are most important to them.

This is the true challenge to Dems--how can we convince these people of the truth--that the Dem party truly represents their values more than the lying, warmongering neocons who only use religion to snag votes from these unsuspecting people?

[Taxloss]

18. They're not Christians.

Jesus said nothing about homosexuality.

One wonders if it's insecurity.

[NAO]

19. They've lost their way...article: Bush/Repub/Christian Right not Biblical

The Blood Guilty Churches
Why Bush’s Agenda Is Immoral and an Abomination to God
By Katherine Yurica
http://yuricareport.com/Religion/TheBloodGuiltyChurches.html

This article touches on most every issue of significance in the Bush/Religious Right agenda, and provides a scathing critique of Bush and of the churches that support him.

excerpt:

"George W. Bush, his administration, the Republican controlled congress as well as the Republican Party itself, and most of the churches in America (including evangelical, Southern Baptist, Pentecostal and Roman Catholic), stand indicted—not by men—not by this writer—but by the very Holy Scriptures the religious-right and Mr. Bush profess to uphold."

"Weighed against the Bible, the Bush actions are not only morally corrupt—they are unchristian and unbiblical to the core. In this essay, the Bush agenda is weighed on the scale of God’s standards and it is found wanting."

Katherine Yurica, In her article "The Blood Guilty Churches" analyzes the policies of the Bush Administration, the Republican Party, and the Religious Right with the teachings of the Bible. She has documented hundreds of examples of Bush policies which are in clear violation of straightforward teachings in the Bible.

The Yurica Report
http://www.yuricareport.com /

The Blood Guilty Churches
Why Bush’s Agenda Is Immoral and an Abomination to God
http://yuricareport.com/Religion/TheBloodGuiltyChurches.html

[moggie]

21. You're having more fun than they are

Stop it at once!

[Taxloss]

23. Bingo.

[placton]

25. Logical answer, then real answer

These folks are driven by a few verses in the Old Testament (OT), and St. Paul, the man who founded the post-Christian religion.

The OT condemns just about everything, including guys who shave and get regular haircuts, eating pigs, not marrying your widowed sister-in-law, etc. Women's names are rarely even mentioned in the OT. Generations have cherry picked sayings to support evil (i.e. slavery is A-OK with God), just as Jesus said (the devil quoting scripture for his own ends).

Then comes Jesus, great guy, divine, here to change things. No more OT he says, live and let live, sell everything & give to the poor, blessed are the meek and peacemakers, etc.

THEN Paul. Strange guy. HATED sex - hetero, homo, you name it. Not real fond of women at all. Said things like "It's better to marry than to burn" - yeah, God gave us these evil sex organs, but we gotta fight 'em stuff. And homosexuality was about as accepted throughout the Greco-Roman world as the hetro kind. Except in certain enclaves like Palestine. Some Biblical scholars posit that Paul was gay OR had a venereal disease, but who knows?

So, that's the logical version.

The REAL answer is found in BLAZING SADDLES in Gene Wilder's description of the town folk of Rick Ridge, something like: "these are farmers, people of the soil, you know, MORONS"

[idiosyncratic]

27. They are NOT true Christians!

I am a Christian . . . but I walked out of a church service once when the pastor started preaching against homosexuality. I haven't been back.

I absolutely don't understand these people . . . and in a Bible Study one day, I got some strange looks when I stated that homosexuality was the last "allowable form of discrimination" and I thought it was wrong.

True Christianity is a long distance away from these Right Wing bigots.

[SnowGoose]

29. It's because you're so cute, they can't stop thinking about it.

Hey man, it's your life - see it the way you want!

[BattyDem]

31. The funny thing is ...

The video with SpongeBob (the one that they're all freaking out about) has absolutely nothing to do with sex ... and SpongeBob is barely in it! What is "gay" about a bunch of cartoon characters and puppets singing We Are Family? :shrug:

Keith Olbermann showed the whole thing last night ... and his reaction to the charge was pretty funny. He said something like, "I should warn you before we show this ... it may make you, your children and even your furniture gay!" :D

By the way, the head of the We Are Family foundation, is saying his organization has nothing to do with sex and is being targeted by mistake. It seems there's another organization with a similar name. So we all know what that means ... the RWers who are bitching about this video, NEVER even saw the damn thing! Typical. :eyes:

[Az_lefty]

36. Their not real Christians...

they are the "fallen away" led by false prophets.

[arwalden]

39. They're Saying The Same Thing About Liberal "Christians"...

... not being real Christians and being led astray by false prophets. Which false prophet were you thinking of?

Anyway... the semantical debate over who's a True Christian and who's not a True Christian is a bit of distraction from my original question wondering what is wrong with those Christians who compulsively fixate on homosex.

[mcar]

38. They are not Christians

They are religious fanatics who think *Bush is the second coming.

[hfojvt]

41. Those same people are obsessed about hetero sex as well

Some of it is a sexual thing, and some of it is a child raising thing. They are afraid of two things, that their daughters will grow up to be sluts, and that their children will end up gay. Okay, there are other fears, that they will turn into drug addicts and end up without jobs or in prison. Also, as fundies, there is the fear that their children will grow up to be atheists, or worse yet, mormons or muslims.
In James Dobson's world, it is all about addiction. If younge people are allowed to experience an orgasm, or if a young boy is allowed to see a naked woman, they will become addicted (or there is a strong probability of addiction) just as surely as if they are allowed to smoke a cigarette or a joint or try cocaine or heroin. Homosexuality is just another addiction to them and it requires the full force of parental and societal disapproval to keep it from spreading like a cancer and destroying America in a Caligula-like orgy of debauchery.

[txaslftist]

42. It is typical homophobia.

The ones who wail the most about it are the ones whose deepest appetites are drawn by it.

If you are secure in your sexuality, it's not even an issue, whether you are hetero or other.

[Lerkfish]

44. same problem with all homophobes....not just the christian ones.

homophobes are obsessed with homosexuality.
I think, for some, its a case of latent desire. They cannot deal with their own homosexual feelings, so they try to beat (literally and figuratively) it out others in effigy.

The only difference is the "christian" homophobes hide behind sketchy misinterpreted obscure scripture to justify their homophobia.

That answers your question.

[prodigal_green]

45. because it is a heck of a lot easier

to be self-ritous in your Christianity because you grab a line or two from the Old Testament about sexual ethics than it is to live a life serving the poor and oppressed and loving your enemy.

[Chovexani]

48. Visibility + Challenging of their beliefs + Envy

(NOTE: I am ONLY talking about the Religious Reich...Scary Falwell and his ilk. I'm not trying to tar all professing Christians with this brush.)

The LGBT community in many ways challenge their beliefs. RR fundies are so stuck in the 1950s model of the nuclear family, they believe it's what the Bible tells them is correct and is the lynchpin of their entire worldview. LGBT folks challenge that notion, by building lives and families according to their own wants and needs, running contrary to what the fundies feel the "Good Book" has to say on the subject. A lot of these fundies sincerely believe America will fall as a nation if people fall outside what they feel is the Biblical model of a family. Some of them (mostly their leaders) use this fear as a way to divide and conquer, not to mention line their pockets.

The LGBT community is more visible than it ever has been in this country. Despite their "ex-gay" nonsense, laws they pass, etc. they have not been able to shove us back in the closet, they have not been able to make homo/bisexuality/transgenderism go away. It pisses them off like you would not believe, it's almost a visceral thing with them. They feel as if they are failing in their mission to "save" America from itself.

Under the surface I also think there is an element of envy involved. Fundies are taught almost from the cradle that they must repress their urges, not give into the "sins of the flesh". If you notice, fundies will go on and on and on about BDSM & fetishes...when Pride events come around they are always screaming the loudest about how "wicked" everyone is, fixated on the drag queens, the leather daddies, the topless dykes...they put out bogus research on the "public health hazards" of queer sexuality and describe various sex acts in gory detail. Deep down, I think they envy it. They live lives of daily repression, and resent anyone who is liberated in their sexuality. I think some of them wish they could partake in it (though they would never admit it, of course).

[Lexingtonian]

49. there was a thread somewhere here yesterday

IIRC, the central claim involved a comprehensive look at the 'Christian' literature containing the detailed arguments they mount against gay marriage. Apparently it contains a very selective, pathology-centered view of gay life, for one thing. (No surprise.) Of interest was the impression, by the people reading this literature, that it contains essentially an extreme projection of the problems of contemporary Christian families onto gay couples/family units of the present.

In short, gay people are conceived to represent comprehensive versions of their own social pathology and family 'values' breakdowns, versions that Must Be Rejected.

It's projection of the worst parts of themselves onto Others.

And yes, an awful lot of the anti-gay extremist 'leaders' in time get busted trying to pick up trannie prostitutes, fondling adolescent boys, or are discovered to have loads of gay porn on their home office computers. All in the name of research, obviously.

[Batgirl]

50. Xtreme Christians

[stanwyck]

51. Fear makes me people dangerous

and these people are afraid of everything and everybody. Women. Minorities. Intellectuals. SpongeBob. Sex. Books. Hollywood.
Just life in general.

[seabeyond]

53. my homo phobe repug brother, bahhahahaha

his 12 year old daughter loves sponge bob. we dont do sponge bob in our house. cause of gay little creature, oh no..........we dont do sponge bob cause it is the embracing and conditioning of stupid we have on so many cartoons. promoting stupid and anger as a good thing are the two things forbidden in the cartoon world for my kids. there has always been this issue, her coming in and watching in our house. my children reinforce, this show isnt allowed, lol lol

i am having quite a joke here cause, my brother has said ya but jade like it. and christmas bought her sponge bob stuff. lol lol lol. this dude is gonna shit when he finds out spongie boy is gay. i think i might even be the one to tell him. i am just busting up

so..............the right brought me a little humor and joy this afternoon. that was fun

[MsTryska]

54. they're in the closet.

and i bet they pop boners when they think about all that hot filthy nasty man on man sex homos have.

it's an abomination!

[arwalden]

57. I'm Reminded Of The Scene In "To Wong Foo..." Where "Sheriff Dullard"...

... sits in a bar contemplating why it is that men do the disgusting things to each other. Then he starts musing out loud about big strong manly men... holding each other... running their fingers though tufts of chest hair... their deep voices... unshaven faces...

It was clear that Sheriff Dullard had personal issues that he needed to work through.

[MsTryska]

59. exactly.

one fixates on what one WANTS to fixate on, imho.

[geniph]

55. There's as many reasons as there are homophobes

For some, it's simply a cynical use of a handy tactic to polarize us.

For others, it's fear of the unknown - they don't realize they know any gayfolk, so they stigmatize and stereotype the idea of homosexuality.

For yet others, it's general repression and fear of sex in general and anything they perceive as "feminine" or "feminizing" - basically, it boils down to misogyny.

In some, it's the whole "green monkeys tear apart the blue monkey" thing - tribal instinct says they must fear and destroy the nonconforming individuals.

There's one whole hell of a lot of truth to what Quentin Crisp said about it. He said a lot of people, men in particular, tend to fixate on certain sex acts and cannot do so without imagining themselves performing them. As he put it, "they think, ooh, I wouldn't like to do that, and then decide, I don't like anyone who does do that, because they might do it to me."

So there's an element among the homophobes that fixate on the imagined sex acts of gay people. These are the ones who invariably call lesbians names like "carpet muncher" and gays things like "rump ranger." All their pejoratives revolve around imagined sex acts. These are the ones that I believe are repressing their own, very normal, attraction to their own sex by fixating on, and unnaturally fearing, certain sex acts. (These are also the same folks who'll go on at length about why they're afraid of going to prison - it's not losing their freedom, it's not losing their civil rights, it's not being beaten up, it's anal sex. That's all they fixate on.) The ones who fixate almost exclusively on anal sex are the most twisted and nasty of the bunch. Unfortunately, they also seem to be the loudest. (And I hate to break this to them, but a. anal sex is not the exclusive province of gay men, and b. many gay men don't engage in anal sex.) I see these folks as the ones still having issues with the whole toilet-training thing. Fixating on the anal is very infantile.

[KurtNYC]

58. #1 It's for fundraising #2 It is the only thing left that people can hate

openly. Racism is still a big one for them but they sort of closet that. They get to parade their hatred of gays and that really turns them on apparently.

Btw, I refer to "faith-based initiatives" as hate-based initiatives.

[oldcoot]

61. Their faith is weak

I once knew a very conservative and an allegedly very devote Christian who did not like to go into the Luxor Casino because the gift stores sold glass crystals and he believed that they were "New Age" symbols. He stated that if I could handle being in the presence of the crystals that my "faith must be strong." I thought that his faith must be pretty weak if it could not survive the mere presence of symbols from another religion or value system.


I feel the same way about these people who obsess over whether or not a cartoon character is gay. If they are raising their children with the "right" value system and if God is "looking out for them," then they have nothing to fear from a cartoon character.

[msgadget]

62. At first I thought,

maybe it's so attractive and tempting an alternative the flock should be forewarned. That could be it.

But, when have the right's manipulators ever been content NOT to have a minority to oppress and rail against? Now that brown people are sought out for membership, listened to, watched, read, appointed and elected, the gays have won the negative attention lottery by default. It's an ugly position, but some group has to assume it.

[donheld]

64. It's really quite true

they seem to make sexual beings out of cartoon characters who really have no, need no, sexual identity at all. Bugs Bunny did drag, but was never identified as gay, back then people didn't but sexual connotations with everything they see.

I think it's quite sad they rob kids of innocent characters like SpongeBob and Tinky Winky. It seems to me it's the fundies who are robbing kids of their innocents in cases like this.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

67. Well Sponge Bob and Barney are loving and sensitive..not hateful and

vindictive...therefore, they must have homosexual values rather than Christian values...thanks for the compliment, fundi christian nutcases.

[RevCheesehead]

68. I dunno - but I'm buying a Spongebob for my car window.

Last time around, I bought a Tinky-Winky and left it on my dashboard - in rural North Carolina!!

Ya know, maybe I should get those two together?

[arwalden]

74. Too Funny!! Ya Big Troublemaker!!

:hi:

[superconnected]

69. I've wondered this about them myself

They believe if Gays were completely accepted it would create more gays and we'd have an epidemic - of gays.

I think it's because if gay were compeletely accepted they are afraid, THEY would turn gay. The rest of us don't seem to have that fear.

[southpaw]

70. I am no longer shocked by ANYTHING a Christian believes...

I have spent my entire life surrounded by them...

Garden-variety Christians will swallow just about anything if you tell them it is a threat to their beilef system or an example of the 'persecution' they seem to see in just about everything.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

72. They know that sexual feelings can bypass the brain

and make otherwise sensible people do strange things (like abandon everything to run off with someone they're passionate about).

They make sex a source of anxiety for their people, especially since no one can live up to the standards that they have devised (no premarital sex, no masturbation, no same-sex sex, no extramarital sex, no thinking about sex with anyone but your legal spouse...)

Yes, they teach that sexual fantasies are equivalent to doing the deed. Fundie magazines for youth have articles on "cleaning up your thought life" and warning that it's best not to even kiss someone you're not married to, because it will "give you lustful thoughts."

(This is not what Jesus meant when he said that "anyone who looks upon a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart." That quote is in the context of people thinking that they're so special because they've never broken a major commandment, and Jesus is telling them that everyone has the potential to sin. In fact, the companion verse is, "Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer.")

Keep people in a state of anxiety about something, and then externalize the "threat." It's similar to the way that rapists blame their victims for "being provocative" or pedophiles blame children for "wanting affection."

If you have people who are that brainwashed into thinking that sex is evil and dangerous, then you have automatic hot button issues to control them with. You can rail against liberated women and women who have sex outside marriage and lesbians, and insecure men will say "Amen!" because in previous generations, even the least powerful man could count on "respect" from the women in his family.

You tell the men that gay men are trying to "recruit" them and will probably rape them if they get the chance, and this will be horribly threatening to men who are afraid of the feminine sides of their natures and their own homoerotic urges. You win the women over to homophobia by telling them that gays and lesbians try to "recruit" children and molest them.

The hysteria about Clinton's blow job was the natural result of this whole business of deliberately creating hang-ups about sex.

[Generic Other]

73. They want someone they can hate out loud

They are too embarassed to overtly hate blacks, Jews, etc. in public anymore for fear of being chastised, and they no longer have the godless Soviets to hate, so they had to transfer all those intense feelings into hating someone they think no one will defend.

I wish someone would expose Christ and his disciples as gay using the same criteria these nutcases have used to expose Spongebob and Barney.

Those bath house buddies/disciples were a little too cozy with Christ weren't they? Dressed in drag, in color-coordinated pastel mantles. And didn't Peter deny being his gay lover three times? And as Mel Gibson has shown in his sadomasochistic flick, they were obviously proto-leathermen. In fact, I believe when Christ was on the cross, someone shoved a sponge in his mouth. Hmmmm...