Why do so many so-called "Christians" believe in "The Rapture"?

[UdoKier]

From my understanding, "The rapture" was the invention of an American 19th century revival-tent huckster. There is not mention of it whatsoever in the Bible.

So why do so many "Christians" believe in it?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture



http://www.tftw.org/Tracts/Bible_rapture.html

[Anakin Skywalker]

1. Beats the Hell Out of Me!

I have been trying to figure this one myself.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

61. Here is the answer: read The Psychology of Christian Fundamentalism

http://www.counterpunch.org/davis01082005.html
Fabulous article detailing the 5 principle components of Christian Fundamentalism with the kicker being #4, belief in Armageddon.

Short answer:
Walter Davis goes into a detailed comparison of two ways of dealing with fear and uncertainty, either looking internally and doing psychoanalysis OR projecting your fears and hate onto the outside world and needing to imagine the whole corrupt world burned clean in a form of projected mass suicide.

Here's an excerpt after he's explained splitting one's personality with the 'born-again' thang, projecting onto the outside world, evangelizing to maintain the intensity, etc.

>snip<

IV. Apocalypticism-The Heart of the Ulcer

"Devout believers are safeguarded in a high degree against the risk of certain neurotic illnesses; their acceptance of the universal neurosis spares them the task of constructing the personal one."

Freud

"Apocalypticism is the capstone that completes the process of fundamentalist self-fashioning. Without it, as we'll see, the entire edifice would crumble. In the Apocalpytic moment the disorder at the core of the fundamentalist psyche achieves a final form, thereby passing over to the register of the sublime. The sublime is the register of the psyche that is reached when the informing desire is given an unbounded expression. All conflicts are then resolved in a release of tension that is total and constitutes what Lacan means by jouissance.

The psyche has found a way to fulfill and complete the desire that structures its inner constitution. As we'll see, each structure described in the previous sections requires Apocalypticism and achieves completion in it. In the Apocalyptic fantasm an ultimate expression is given to the conflicts that define the fundamentalist psyche through an action that brings an end to those conflicts.

The necessity of Apocalypticism is a direct outgrowth of the psychological mechanism on which fundamentalist relies to structure the world. The only way to prevent a return of the projections is through a final evacuation. This desire can only come to fruition with the picturing of a world beyond redemption held under the brand of an all-consuming wrath. That image finalizes the split that defines the psyche by giving sublime expression to the way one must view the world when seeing it from the standpoint of one's salvation.

Apocalypticism thus brings to completion the psychological operation that has been employed repeatedly from the beginning. First, one cleanses oneself by projecting one's disowned desires unto the world. The resulting split must then be maintained rigorously with nothing allowed to fall outside its scope. The psyche must be voided of everything save the serenities of the saved. For that to happen, however, the world must become the object of an unstinting attack on all that one has externalized there. This act must be endless lest the projections return. By its internal logic fundamentalism is thus driven ineluctably to a need for quantitative expansion through the discovery of greater, more insidious forms of evil.

The mathematical sublime beckons, the need to produce greater and greater magnitudes. The world becomes the polluted chamber of one's foulest imaginings with no way to check the demands of that vision. Within the psyche an even greater transformation occurs. One craves the constant exercise of an emotion that one must just as strenuously disclaim. Hatred. One needs fresh supplies of it as badly as the U.S. needs to ransack the globe for fresh supplies of oil. No matter how loudly one proclaims one's salvation, purified in the blood of the lamb, hatred has become the innermost necessity to which one is wedded. And that necessity has now broken lose of any containment. Hatred of one's former self is no longer sufficient. One now hates the world and is driven to seek out everything in it that one can claim caused or can cause an inner condition other than the purity of the saved. One hates, that is, everything that resists surrender and absolute obedience to the system of literalism and literal commands to which one has committed oneself.

As the scope of what one hates grows apace it finds fruition in the binary opposition that is essential to it. Good and Evil divide the world in two, giving ontological form to the rigidity of the split that defines the fundamentalist psyche. All differences, all particularities, all complexities must give way to the demands of a comprehensive abstraction. And the fury of that abstraction can and will brook no exceptions.

Everything thus resolves itself into the ultimate necessity required by the informing hatred. One longs for and demands an end to all the contingencies that have from the beginning been sources of fear and confusion. It is what one has always sought. To be done with all of it. With the contingency of the human. To be done with all ambiguity and complexity and confusion. Done with the feeling that history has no purpose other than chaos or meaningless repetition. Done with embodiment itself- and all the unwelcome desires it imposes on us. Done with the very sources of all that one hates and fears. To locate it all ontologically in a single principle-evil-and then be rid of it all once and for all through the triumph of that force that has the power to extinguish it all."

[LudwigVan]

2. Escapism.

The delusion that when the world goes to hell, they don't have to be around to care.

[susanna]

60. Which, at the root,

is selfish. Precisely what Christianity (in real practice) does not affirm.

[stray cat]

3. There are a couple of verses that could support a rapture.

It is never called the rapture in scripture but there are verses that could certainly be interpreted that way. However, it sure isn't a clear endorsement and is never mentioned as a key tenet or part of Jesus or the Bibles teaching.

I think it is a comforting thought to many that they might be protected from some of the worst things that could come.

[RobertSeattle]

4. Saw a great sigline recently

Something like "I can't wait for the Rapture so I can get all your stuff"

:evilgrin:


But far too many "Christians" put far too much into Revelations than Jesus's actual words in the Gospels. Many "Christians" are more "Paulians" (Followers of Paul) than Christians.

[Anakin Skywalker]

5. "Resurrection of the Dead"?

Be careful what you wish for. Ever seen the movies Pet Sematary I & II? :)

[Comicstripper]

6. People interpret the Book of Revelations

in strange ways.
I believe that this is where the idea comes from. If you ask me, the entire book was written during an acid trip. It's really the only thing that accounts for some of the imagery in there.
I suggest you take a look at it. It's almost incomprehensible.

[The Doctor.]

36. You are correct....

It is well known that John spent time in India before writing the Revelation.
(Notice all the Asian symbolism?)

I was 'Born-Again' for a while, but I outgrew it.

Check this if you have a few minutes;

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2974953#2975051

[K-W]

57. Seriously its just a grab bag, like a nostradamus prediction.

An imagination can take it lots of places.

[thinkingwoman]

7. because they don't read their bibles

and they can't think for themselves.

[Az]

8. Because it fits the expectations of the story

It provides a grand conclusion and justification to those that have held fast to the belief. It places those that doubted or rejected their beliefs in jeopardy but not without recourse. It is the ultimate in "Told ya so".

Jesus was to return soon. The NT introduced many positive ideas (ie treat others as you would have them treat you). But it also brought to the fore the notion that there would be a conclusion. And that all those who are faithful and deserving will be rewarded at this time.

We believe things because for the most part we believe they are true. This does not mean that we are not beseiged by doubts and concerns. Others decry belief and this causes us to doubt our beliefs all the more. For those that believe in the Rapture it is the final word on the matter. It is comfirmation that they have not been wrong. And holding onto that idea can often be a very important aspect of belief.

[PassingFair]

13. The NT did not "introduce" the golden rule...

Confucius uttered the "treat others as you would yourself" type sentiment 500 years before Jesus was supposedly even born. It probably goes back further than that, though.
I believe that the Jesus story brings us the "turn the other cheek" sentiment. No Jesus follower that I ever met suscribes to it.

[Az]

19. Agreed

Any succesful philosophy or religion adopts this notion in time. The notion that the Christians created it was not my intent. Socrates did a sterling defense of the notion long before Jesus was around.

[karlrschneider]

20. The "golden rule" is a concept understood by most all animals.

Anyone who is owned by a cat and owns a dog knows this. :D

[Az]

29. It is tied more to our higher reliance on learned behaviour

Our species shifted its reliance on instinct to a more adaptable learned methodology. Within this construct treating others how you expect to be treated is effectively teaching them how to behave. Thus it is an effective social building tool for our species where instinct would interfere with other species not so dependent of learning for their social structures.

[The Doctor.]

39. It is a self-defending meme.

You are absolutely correct.

The two keys to this belief are insecurity and arrogance.

Check this if you have 10 minutes;

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2974953#2975051

I'll bet you've thought of something like it before.

[superconnected]

9. yes, the rapture is more hollywood and fundy-lore than anything else

Revelations is Johns great I had a dream speech. There are many books in the apcrophya(sp.) that are "I had a dream", speeches.

I can't get anything out of revelations, that the fundies are saying. Revelations is thought by many bible scholars to be a dream about the fall of Rome, and of course metaphorical.

When you look at how the fundies' minds work, the only way they could interpret it is, as another way we all go to hell for not severe obedience to their strict god.

I often think their God doesn't like people because they don't like people. My God loves everyone and doesn't have requirements that you must be straight or Christian.

[louis-t]

11. "their God doesn't like people because they don't like people

Very profound. A great way to explain the 'syndrome'.

[The Doctor.]

41. "And we created God in our Image...."

There are not a few scholars who have interpreted the original texts this way... many of them were burned to death.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2974953#2975051

But perhaps we will create God in our image after all...

[PROGRESSIVE1]

10. ignorance

[rzemanfl]

12. It gives them a reason not to fix up the trailer.

[Kukesa]

67. Now, that's really funny. LOL. n/t

[MellowOne]

14. I attended a lecture on the subject

Christian's have somehow twisted Jesus proclaiming of his return after he arose, and his warning of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. as the rapture. He clearing states that many of those standing before me will see the Day of the Lord (the destruction of Jerusalem). The Day of the Lord has been turned into a rapture of the end-time Christians. If the signs were for people who would live two thousands years into the future, why would he warn the people of his day of the destruction?

[On the Road]

15. The Rapture is Not Made Up

In the sense that the Bible does talk about believers being taken up alive to meet Jesus in the air:

1 Thessalonians 4
¹⁶For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=104&topic_id=2987944&mesg_id=2987944

The scenario in which there is a seven-year period of tribulation following the rapture, during which the AntiChrist will reign, after which Jesus will come back a third time for good -- THAT scenario is what was created in the 18th century.

It was an attempt to fit together all the apocyptic verses in the Bible on the grounds that a simple second coming doesn't really match Daniel, Revelation, and the Gospels. A lot of the material on the antiChrist, the tribulation, etc, was always interpreted historically, to refer to things that happened in the 1st century. It shows how far wrong you can go if you start out with a false premise.

[midlandsdawg]

22. Actually

in the oldest texts, there is no 7 year tribulation, but a 3.5 year tribulation, that is also mentioned as 42 months and the exact number of days. Also the word anti-christ is only found one time in the singular version and that is by John.

[regnaD kciN]

62. That's right. The whole point of that scriptural passage...

...was that those believers who had died before Christ's return would not "miss out" on salvation. It isn't even part of any book or passage dealing with prophecy, apocalyptic messages, or anything to do with how the future was going to play out.

I've been a Christian all my life, went to a church-run secondary school, etc. But I never encountered a single word about any "rapture" until college, when my non-Christian girlfriend at the time was snickering about how her roommate and said roommate's fundie friends were talking about how they'd be "taken up in the air to meet Jesus" and thus miss "the tribulation." Needless to say, I thought it was the craziest thing I'd ever heard. From visiting her in her room, I got to know her roommate and the other fundies -- even though we were then in college, I've never met a group that so screamed out "high school!" like that crowd -- an obsessively self-centered clique that spent most of the time gossiping, talking about clothes and boyfriends and how they were going to get the cute guys to notice them and, by the way, isn't it great that they were all Saved, and going to be meeting Jesus in the clouds any day now? Praise the Lord!

:eyes:

Needless to say, they were also quite dismissive about any attempts to act in a Christian manner toward the poor, trying to build a more-just world, etc. Why, didn't you realize that we're already in the End Times, and the only Truly Christian thing to do is to forget about all this charity stuff and concentrate on the one really important matter -- converting as many people as quickly as you could, so that they wouldn't be cast into Hell when Jesus returned a few weeks from now?

(I'm not making the following up: Later on that year, I drew a very high number -- 6 -- in the draft lottery. While I was trying to figure out how to apply for CO status, one of said fundies tried telling me that I should be overjoyed at being so likely to be drafted. After all, they explained, that meant that I had an excellent chance of being one of the very few people throughout human history to be granted the honor and privilege to actually fight for God at Armageddon! :crazy: )

Had I only known, at the time, that I was witnessing the future of American "popular Christianity"... :puke:

[smurfygirl]

16. Okay I'm from a southern baptist family

except for my parents THANK GOD!

The way my mother says they teach it to the youngins is...

When you pass, you spirit leaves the body. When Jesus comes and the final judgements are set forth your spirit will go back to your body and you will be a part of the new earth. In a sense you inherit the earth. But, I'm pretty sure we already inherited it. Really I don't believe the earth belongs to us but we belong to the earth. So, regardless I don't care either way if the rapture comes or not. And I believe in reincarnation so rapture to me seems stupid.

[The Doctor.]

44. You're cool Smurfygirl... Imagine;

That you could reincarnate any way you chose, so long as no soul saw fit to have you experience the sum of your misdeeds.

If you have followed the true law, "An ye harm none, do as ye will.", then all of heaven may well be at your disposal.
But those that have caused me unjust harm...
They will know that harm.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2974953#2975051

[saltpoint]

17. I think they believe in the Rapture because it --

-- validates their conceit of moral superiority.

It's a peculiar and sometimes dangerous imbalance to be that thrilled with the next life and so threatened by this one.

[midlandsdawg]

23. it really

doesn't validate morality, nor have i seen them do this, but they do use it to justify faith.

[saltpoint]

27. Their "faith" and their "morality" are mighty, mighty close --

-- when these folks start their rapturin'.

[midlandsdawg]

28. maybe i don't see it

that way because I am very devout, what some may call, conservative christian, but I am a liberal too. I have many great debates, but then again, most of the quote "raputurin" talk folks I know aren't gonna condemn me to hell either. There is a great series of books, similar to left behind, that really gives the true story.

[oldtime dfl_er]

31. bingo! we have a winner!

Actually they're all good arguments but this is the one that fits most of the fundies I know. A false moral superiority, the arrogance of ignorance, that old exalted feeling that you are "a chosen one" and the hoi polloi you have to contend with here on earth will fall away.


www.cafepress.com/showtheworld

[saltpoint]

35. Hi, oldtime dfl_er. I was struck by your avatar. Is that one --

-- you designed? I like it a lot.

On the Rapture: a family down the street with a slew of kids is a member of a church that believes Jesus' return is imminent and the Rapture could occur at any moment.

The rational part of me rejects the notion of the Rapture. At the same time I'm in awe of the parents of this family -- their love for their children is very humbling, and their children are gentle-spirited and loving people. It's been an odd experience trying to ignore the Rapture talk and at the same time return the good energy these people generate.

But they're exceptions. The hellfire preachers on the radio are mostly howling like ferral dogs about the Rapture. According to them, it's due within the hour!

Thank you for your post.

[txaslftist]

18. My brother is one of these kooks. This might help.

My dad, too. Or at least he was when I was growing up. Imagine the Cold War, being told that men from the USSR wanted to create so many missiles that their first strike would be the last one ever struck. Imagine nuclear mushroom clouds blossoming like evil fruit over all of the major US cities. Imagine a show called "The Day After" where we all walked through radioactive dust and died slowly, bald, cold in a nuclear winter and alone.

That was REALITY then. Or at least we thought so. Hell, Armageddon was a HOPEFUL prophecy. At least it had some people getting saved.

Out comes Hal Lindsey's "Late Great Planet Earth"; then "The 1980s, Countdown to Armageddon".

Wickedly well written stuff about the end times being nigh, the rapture coming, the 'good' being 'saved' and the bad having to either die or go through the seven years of tribulation to cleanse themselves or perish forever... And it wasn't written as non-fiction.

My brother took to it like mother's milk and so did I for a while, but then you see the inconsistencies and have to say, wait a minute. This ain't mama's milk. This is horse piss.

Some people don't look for and don't want to see inconsistencies. They aren't willing to look beyond the simple solutions offered by snake oil salesmen like Lindsey and all that LEFT BEHIND crap. Their world remains simple, black and white, good and evil, them and us, God's Only Party and the poor, eternally damned Liberals.

[midlandsdawg]

21. Actually

It isn't a fundy tent revival invented thing. As a christian and a preterist I can maybe fill you in on any questions. The rapture is actually decently old, but not biblical. I forgot the exact year, but it was actually first taught by 2 catholic priests who said a woman had the vision in a dream. At the time, the church (at that point "the church" was catholic) was losing members and wanted something to draw people in. A nice worldly sign to look forward too is what they came up with. I kind of liken it to the old hebrew folks in the bible, jesus was a king, but not a worldly king, they wanted something worldly to prove their faith, that is what most christians have now in the rapture, false, but something to justify faith.

[htuttle]

52. Most credit the invention of the 'rapture' to John Nelson Darby

...a preacher with the Plymouth Brethern sometime around 1827.

Or so I've read.

:shrug:

[Tinoire]

71. Margaret MacDonald, 1830 + Irving & Darby & later Scoffield

Welcome to DU Midlandsdawg. I think you're thinking of Margaret MacDonald who was "amongst the demonised false prophets who were causing "disturbances" in Edward Irving's church at the time". The trouble is, there's nothing pre-tribulationary in Margaret's vision; her revelation seems to lean more towards post-trib. http://www.apostasynow.com/topics/trib/pretrib08.html

Gawd I hate this theory. You can't argue with the Rapturists- it's as if their minds/brains have already been raptured away! A total waste of time.
===

Two religious sects in Britain took up Margaret’s idea. One was the Catholic Apostolic Church headed by Edward Irving (1792-1834). This sect believed that because the Second Coming was imminent, they had the gifts of the spirit, such as prophecy and speaking in tongues, as the apostles did.

The other group that adopted Margaret Macdonald’s idea was the Brethren or Plymouth Brethren organized by John Nelson Darby (1800-1882). Darby was educated as a lawyer, became an Anglican priest in 1826, but went on to found the (Protestant) Plymouth Brethren in 1830. Darby visited the Macdonald home in 1830 and first presented the new pre-tribulation rapture doctrine soon thereafter. The new doctrine was not received unanimously.

(snip)

From 1862 to 1877, Darby lived in and traveled throughout the United States and Canada, spreading his message. He was a very appealing speaker and also intolerant to criticism. At first he tried to win members of existing Protestant congregations to his sect, but met with little success. He then spread his end-times message to influential clergymen and laymen in churches in major cities without insisting they leave their denominations.

Two of his converts were James Hall Brookes, pastor of the Walnut Street Presbyterian Church in St. Louis and Adoniram Judson Gordon, pastor of Clarendon St. Baptist Church in Boston. These two men became leaders of the movement which spread the doctrine throughout the northeast and Midwest during the last quarter of the 19th century. Dwight L. Moody also accepted the doctrine.

From 1883-1897, each summer at Niagara-on-the-Lake, Ontario, James H. Brookes led conferences which spread the doctrine very successfully to conservative church leaders of America who were concerned about the liberal influence of "higher criticism" that was making inroads into churches. The new message spread from the leaders down to the local congregations.

In 1897 there was a split of conference participants into two groups: a pro-Darby faction led by Arno C. Gaebelein and Cyrus I. Scofield, and an anti-Darby faction led by Robert Cameron. A five-year "paper war," in which each side wrote articles blasting the other side, ended in a win by the pro-Darby forces.

(snip)

http://reformed-theology.org/html/issue06/pre-trib.htm



Darby expressedly denied that Ms. MacDonald's vision had any authority, and in a letter written in 1845, he condemns "Irvingism" as a "fatal error". Neither have I discovered, after reading 1500 pages of Darby's personal correspondence, any reference to Lacunza or his book. It may well be that he heard of 'a Rapture' before he began to teach it, but I have not been able to find a formal treatise on The Rapture written by Darby: and "Rapture Doctrines" were NOT his main interest anyway! The earliest formal presentation of what may be called "the Scofield scenario" of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture I have found was written by a William Kelly, a friend and associate of Darby's. But Scofield got his Rapture Doctrine from Darby, as Scofield himself and others have testified. Darby, who eventually resigned from the Anglican Clergy; from then on refused to confirm any denominational creed or to apply for or accept any kind of preacher's "license". He also denounced all religious bureaucracies as contrary to the scripture and the rule of the Holy Spirit; sarcastically labeling them as "The Establishment". Thus, he was eventually branded as a proponent of ANARCHY. Even his enemies can find little to say against him, since his morals, his public conduct, his financial affairs, and his intellectual genius were above reproach. Some of Darby's contemporaries testified that he gave away 90% of his income, mostly to poor people. He translated the Bible into French, German, and English, and his French version is still the most respected translation in France to this day. His English version was so accurate, that the corrected renderings of the Revised Version of 1881 and the American Standard Version of 1901 are virtually reproductions of Darby's work. Darby is a paradoxical character like none other in the 19th century; for while he is arguably the most influential theologian since Martin Luther, almost no one even knows he ever existed, and almost no one knows that Scofield learned The Rapture Doctrine from John Nelson Darby.

(snip)
http://reformed-theology.org/html/issue06/pre-trib.htm
==

I can't read the thing but if you or anyone else wants to read her vision, it seems to be quoted here:

MARGARET'S REVELATION "It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon me. I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to drown them in perdition. It was just 'no God.' I repeated the words, Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men's hearts failing them for fear. Now look out for the sign of the Son of Man. Here I was made to stop and cry out, O it is not known what the sign of the Son of Man is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is. I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light. I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man, even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father's glory. I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but 'tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in his people. Many passages were revealed, in a light in which I had not before seen them. I repeated, 'Now is the kingdom of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the Bridegroom, five wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them; but they that were wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.' 'But be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.' This was the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels - this is the light to be kept burning - the light of God - that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye. Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance. No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. 'Tis Christ in us that will lift us up - he is the light - 'tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air. I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then shall we be caught up to meet him. Oh none will be counted worthy of this calling but his body, which is the church, and which must be a candlestick all of gold. I often said, Oh the glorious inbreaking of God which is now about to burst on this earth; Oh the glorious temple which is now about to be reared, the bride adorned for her husband; and Oh what a holy, holy bride she must he, to be prepared for such a glorious bridegroom. I said, Now shall the people of God have to do with realities - now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known - now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up - it is not knowledge about God that it contains, but it is an entering into God - I saw that there was a glorious breaking in of God to be. I felt as Elijah, surrounded with chariots of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled with the Spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see nothing - so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the other left, because the one has the light of God within while the other cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven. I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that it it were possible the very elect will be deceived - This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will he shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have believed - but the trial of real faith will be found to honour and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest - the love of many will wax cold.

I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive - for it is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work - he will have a counterpart for every part of God's truth, and an imitation for every work of the Spirit. The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God - and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he - when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which those are to pass who will be counted worthy to stand before the Son of man. There will he outward trial too, but 'tis principally temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will just increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out. The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept. I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit - have the light of God in you, that you may detect Satan - be full of eyes within -be clay in the hands of the potter -submit to be filled, filled with God. This will build the temple. It is not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord. This will fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the Lamb. I saw it to be the will of God that all should be filled. But what hindered the real life of God from being received by his people, was their turning from Jesus, who is the way to the Father. They were not entering in by the door. For he is faithful who hath said, by me if any man enters in he shall find pasture. They were bypassing the cross, through which every drop of the Spirit of God flows to us. All power that comes not through the blood of Christ is not of God.

When I say, they are looking from the cross, I feel that there is much in it - they turn from the blood of the Lamb, by which we overcome, and in which our robes are washed and made white. There are low views of God's holiness, and a ceasing to condemn sin in the flesh, and a looking from him who humbled himself, and made himself of no reputation. Oh! it is needed, much needed at present, a leading back to the cross. I saw that night, and often since, that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on the body, such as has not been, a baptism of fire, that all the dross may be put away. Oh there must and will be such an indwelling of the living God as has not been - the servants of God sealed in their foreheads - great conformity to Jesus - his holy holy image seen in his people - just the bride made comely by his comeliness put upon her. This is what we are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the air - and it will be. Jesus wants his bride. His desire is toward us. He that shall come, will come, and will not tarry. Amen and Amen Even so come Lord Jesus.''

END OF MARAGARET MCDONALD'S VISION. http://www.banner.org.uk/misc/rapture.html
===

[Warren DeMontague]

24. Because nothing would please them more than being teleported up

to a place with no nekkid women, no pre-(or post) marital sex, no liberals, no hairy hippies, no sinful rock and roll music, no science and most of all no free thought.

I say, don't let the door hit y'all on the ass, on the way out.

[tinonedown]

25. ROFLMAO! (eom)

[pinto]

26. I don't know...I take a live and let live on the rapture belief thing. n/t

[McKenzie]

30. literalism, futurism and preterism

Historicists (literalists) believe that the "Age of the Spirit" would begin in 1260AD; some interpret the book as 1260 days, others as 1260 years. Futurists regard the great tribulation, or the rise of the Antichrist, the return of Christ, and the millennial kingdom as happening in the future. Preterists, on the other hand, see the prophecies in Revelation as the conflict between the early church and the Roman Empire. So the latter view the prophecies as belonging to the past.

They can't even agree amongst themselves as to what Revelation actually prophesied. The Futurists are the most dangerous nutters because they believe the tribulation is yet to come and interpret world events against that backdrop.

[stray cat]

42. I know some great futurists and they definitely aren't all nuts.

The only danger is when people try to make things happen in terms of world events. I know alot of people with and without faith that I would trust in charge of world events.

[On the Road]

70. From My Point of View, Preterism

is the only sensible approach to the prophecies if you believe them to be true. That Jesus HAS come again, in judgement on Jerusalem, in 70AD.

Evangelicals refuse to consider that possibility because Jesus did not make a physical appearance and the moon didn't literally turn to blood, etc. This ignores the fact that Isaiah and other prophets, military events like the conquest of Jersalem are described in the most apolcalyptic terms.

[theboss]

32. The Rapture is a pretty controversial subject among Christians

I wish people who obviously don't respect us didn't make sweeping comments on Christians. We're not slack-jawed followers of hucksters. A lot of us are educated people who understand the politics behind the making of the Bible. We know that Revelation was a late addition to the Bible and still view it with a little skepticism.

The Rapture goes through periods of popularity, generally around the turn of a century. Fin di siecle and all that. (I may have misspelled that; I always try to turn French into Italian).

It's universally accepted that Christ is going to return. It's pretty difficult to be a Christian and not accept that. It's not really clear how he is going to return or what is going to happen when he does.

The Chuches of Christ I grew up in and the churches I've attended as an adult have always steered cleared of too much speculation and therefore we've never spent a lot of time on Revelation. When we studiy it, it's generally been treated much more scholarly than the rest of the New Testament. My understanding is that a lot of Christians - possibly a majority - treat the book this way. It's something that could happen, but it's not something you want to spend too much time speculating about.

I've found that the groups most into the Rapture are new Christians (people who came to the Church late in life) and those who have had pretty traumatic events in their lives.

Also, you can't talk about the current status of this without mentioning the Left Behind series which has gotten millions of people interested in Revelation, Christians and Non-Christian alike.

The real issue with these books is so many ministers are uncomfortable with the Rapture because Bible Colleges are uncomfortable with it. It's not something most ministers I know preach; it's not something a lot of Bible Studies focus on. So people are left out on their own.

Basically, it's the DaVinci Code of Theology.

Personally, I don't believe there is going to be a Rapture and even if there is one, I don't think I'm necessarily going to be alive for it. I think the Bible is pretty explicit that we should not focus on when the End Times will come, but live as if it could happen at any time.

"For you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night." 1 Thessalonians 5:2

[Az]

34. Unfortunately it also says he will come soon

Such a suggestion creates too great a temptation not to speculate.

[theboss]

38. Oh, it's definitely a great way to create drama

I mean, we've been waiting for "Christ: The Sequel" for 2000 years. George Lucas didn't make people wait this long.

But, like I said, the people most interested in speculating about the Second Coming seem to be those new to studying the Bible, because it can be "exciting" and those who are depressed and in an apocalyptic mood. Then there are the Joseph Farah types who are frankly a little frightening.

[Az]

43. I am curious as to your take

On Jesus commenting to his apostles that he would return within the lifetime of some of those standing there. This occurrs in two seperate gospels. I don't have the verses immediately at hand but can find them if you wish.

[theboss]

46. I would like to see the exact verse

Here is the Chapter of John:

22 Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?” John 21, v 22-23

This is once again a message of Jesus' power over death. It is also to me a message that Jesus did not plan on returning until all his Disciples had died.

I am curious to see the verses you are thinking of. They sound familiar but I can't recall them off the top of my head either. You might be thinking of Matthew 24, where it is pretty clear to me that when Jesus says "you" he is referring to Christians in general and not just those present.

[Az]

47. Here ya go

Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Can only find the one at this moment. But it would seem to suggest that something is amiss.

[MellowOne]

65. I pointed this out in my post above

Jesus was addressing the crowd standing before Him. It was meant for those people not future generations. In 70 A.D. Jerusalem was invaded and destroyed by the Romans. It was the end of the state of Israel. (Israel was re-established in 1948) Jesus was warning the people of the destruction as it was a terrible time. He told them of certain signs that would appear before the Romans came. He told them to flee to the mountains when they saw the signs because it would be the most terrible time as the world has ever known. It was so terrible that half the population was killed. The people were trapped within the walls of Jerusalem. They were starving, killed and ate their own children.

Paul also warned the people in his letter to the Thessalonians. It was addressed to the people of that time period, not us. He also gave signs of the destruction. And again Paul said it was "near" and "soon" and many would witness the "Day of Judgement" or "Day of the Lord".

The passage about being "caught up" in the air has an entirely different meaning than rapture. It is a very interesting study that I can't simply explain here.

The Book of Revelations (the title of the book is The Revelation of Jesus Christ) is a spiritual book given to John when he was in "the spirit". It was a comfort book for the first century Christians. They just lost their leader, Jesus. The first century Christians were under much persecution and torment from the Romans as well as Jews leaders. The book is about Jesus as our spiritual leader, spiritual warfare and judgement that God uses to change people's character. It's a very interesting study that would take days to explain. It's actually the most exciting book of the Bible once you understand it's meaning.

I don't mean to come across as a "know it all." I attended Bible College as well as research and much study of the scriptures.

[The Doctor.]

33. It's just another way to feel 'better' than everyone else...

I pissed off some Born-agains on another board when I called them on their arrogance.

You see, I was a Born-Again Christian once too...

And I know that these people WANT the Rapture AND the Great Tribulation to happen. That way they can have 'ultimate validation', 'ultimate rightness'.

And now we have these sick fuckers in policy making positions.
I heard a caller explain that to Ira Flato on NPR's Science Friday today. These people are making policies with NO concern for future generations BECAUSE THEY DON'T THINK THERE WILL BE ANY AFTER ARMAGEDDON.

And they're well on their way towards making that happen.

Check this if you have 15 minutes;

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2974953#2975051

[SmokingJacket]

51. I think you have it here...

Boy, would I **love** it if there were some external, ultimate, no-questions affirmation of my own liberal beliefs... maybe that someone would come down and PICK OUT all the good liberals and we could go live forever in liberalland... wouldn't that be nice?

Well -- actually --

But I do think this is what gives the idea such holding power in our culture: the ultimate test. Good or bad, absolutely. A Superbowl for the Soul.

[The Doctor.]

59. "Superbowl for the Soul"

That fits so perfectly and on so many levels.

Great quote.

[Malva Zebrina]

37. the word "rapture" does not exist in the bible

you are correct.

It is the overwhelming fear of death, the fear the ego has of an final end, the becoming of a "nothing" after death, that drives human beings to consider. by whatever belief they may choose to embrace, they will live on for eternity. What could be more soothing to the ego than to believe that you will have life eternal?

[Cleita]

40. Catholics believe, or so I was taught anyway,

that when the end of the world is near, first the anti-Christ will come on earth. The end of the world is the end of mankind, not necessarily the end of the planet. After the anti-Christ is revealed to be who he is, then Christ will descend from Heaven. Everyone will die and Christ will resurrect everyone from the beginning since the Garden of Eden. The resurrected will join their souls in heaven or hell. It's not exactly rapture like the fundies believe because no one is left behind.

[CatholicEdHead]

49. Not in any recent Catholic Dogma

that I have heard.

The time for the end of the world is unknowable. The "end of the world" is often referred to as our own personal "end of the world" (e.g. our death). So, in the meantime do your best to the least among you and do no talk about the rapture, anti-christ, etc...

This is in mainstream Catholic circles. Many of the far right Catholics are quasi-born again anyway.

[KG]

45. another fable as anology.- jebus returns as car-eating monster

Rapture

by Blondie

Toe to toe
Dancing very slow
Barely breathing
Almost comatose
Wall to wall
People hypnotised
And they're stepping lightly
Hang each night in Rapture

Back to back
Sacrailiac
Spineless movement
And a wild attack

Face to face
Sadly solitude
And it's finger popping
Twenty-four hour shopping in Rapture

Fab Five Freddie told me everybody's high
DJ's spinnin' are savin' my mind
Flash is fast, Flash is cool
Francois sez fas, Flashe' no do
And you don't stop, sure shot
Go out to the parking lot
And you get in your car and you drive real far
And you drive all night and then you see a light
And it comes right down and lands on the ground
And out comes a man from Mars
And you try to run but he's got a gun
And he shoots you dead and he eats your head
And then you're in the man from Mars
You go out at night, eatin' cars
You eat Cadillacs, Lincolns too
Mercurys and Subarus
And you don't stop, you keep on eatin' cars
Then, when there's no more cars
You go out at night and eat up bars where the people meet
Face to face, dance cheek to cheek
One to one, man to man
Dance toe to toe
Don't move to slow, 'cause the man from Mars
Is through with cars, he's eatin' bars
Yeah, wall to wall, door to door, hall to hall
He's gonna eat 'em all
Rapture, be pure
Take a tour, through the sewer
Don't strain your brain, paint a train
You'll be singin' in the rain
I said don't stop, do punk rock

Well now you see what you wanna be
Just have your party on TV
'Cause the man from Mars won't eat up bars when the TV's on
And now he's gone back up to space
Where he won't have a hassle with the human race
And you hip-hop, and you don't stop
Just blast off, sure shot
'Cause the man from Mars stopped eatin' cars and eatin' bars
And now he only eats guitars, get up!

[leesa]

48. Because they HATE being alive. My Fundie brothers and their wives

are so depressed and feeling so impotent, that they would rather be dead than alive...face it fundamentalist christianity is pretty depressing. They are prohibited from killing themselves so they wish for God to do it for them.

[smurfygirl]

54. I can see this.

My husband's family is just like this. Their very life seems unimportant to them. The consume everything and lay waste to all they have. They are obese and have health problems but are so self righteous they still suck the fat off of their steaks. They never enjoy the stars or the trees or nature. They go to church and judge all those that aren't there. They speak of others as if they are better than them. They spread rumors within their own family. I secretly can't stand them but I am nice and always helpful to them out of respect for my husband. I don't know how he deals with them. I am very close with my family and talk to them daily. The only time his parents call is if they need money or work done to their house. The same with his siblings. If I was their child I would have killed myself in high school or become a drug addict. That is no exaggeration.

[geniph]

50. Millennialist fervor and fear of change

In times of rapid societal change, it's not at all uncommon to have a "traditionalist" backlash, often accompanied by extreme religiosity, Armageddonist belief systems, and such. I believe the tag "millennialist" got added because Armageddonist cults sprang up like mushrooms around the end of the first millenium (Y1K fear!).

It's totally non-Biblical. What John predicts in the hallucinatory fever dream of Revelation has very little to do with the massive industry that's sprung up around this Rapture mythology.

[salin]

69. fear of change...

it seems to me that periods of "great revivals" in the recent history of the US (1700s on) tend to follow periods of great change, societal and technological. I have come to believe that in periods of great change there often exists great fear... how will I/my family survive these changes... will we be left behind in this society... etc. And in the face of this fear a tendency to try to hold onto something that is seen as certain... and in grabbing on to it - a fervor and literalist interpretation to somehow make it seem even more firm and unchanging.

This would also account for a rise in fundamentalism in other world religions in recent times (eg the Taliban and other more extremist growths among militant/fundamendalist Muslims).

It is human nature, imo, for some to opportunisitically use this movement to gain economic or political power (or both.)

[journalist3072]

53. The Rapture

As a Christian, I believe in the Rapture because the Bible tells me it is going to happen.

Now, the Bible does not use the word 'rapture' but it talks about us being "caught up."

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (King James Version)says:


"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

[tanyev]

58. Most traditional denominations do not

accept the Left-Behind version of the Rapture, they just don't make as much noise about it.


The Rapture Exposed:
The Message of Hope in the Book of Revelation

By Barbara R. Rossing
Westview Press, Boulder, Colorado, 2004, Hardback, 212pp., $24.00

Review by G. Richard Wheatcroft

During the 19 th century a new theology was conceived called “premillinarian dispensationalism.” John Nelson Darby, a British evangelical preacher, made a number of visits to the United States to promote what he called “dispensations,” that is, “intervals of time ordering God’s grand timetable for world events.”According to Darby, the Bible contains a schedule of events which will precede the end of history. The first event, coming before a millennium, will be the return of Jesus to ‘Rapture’ all true believers “out of the world into heaven.” Then, after seven years of global tribulation, Jesus will return a second time as a warrior to defeat the forces of evil at Armageddon and establish a reconstructed kingdom of Israel over which he will reign for a thousand years until the end of the world. Darby claimed that the foundation of the “dispensations” is Daniel 9:25-27, the Book of Revelation and other texts from the Hebrew and Christian Testaments.

Barbara Rossing, who teaches New Testament at the Lutheran School of Theology in Chicago, calls the ‘Rapture’ phenomenon a “destructive racket.” She writes that her book is for those who are concerned about the “simplistic” misinterpretation of the Biblical script by the “whole prophecy industry of Tim Le Haye, Hal Lindsey and others.” It is her conviction that dispensationalism must be challenged today “both because of its false theology and also because of its growing influence on public policy.” To counter this distortion and manipulation of Christian faith, she provides an interpretation of the Book of Revelation which provides “a vision of hope for God’s healing of the world.”
http://www.tcpc.org/resources/reviews/rapture_exposed.htm

[Piperay]

55. By believing in that kind of crap they don't have

to take responsibility for anything that goes on, it's an easy way to opt out of guilt and responsibilty.

[Warren DeMontague]

56. In case of Rapture Man From Mars Starts Eatin' Cars.

Fab Five Freddie told me everybody's high
DJ's spinnin' are savin' my mind
Flash is fast, Flash is cool
Francois sez fas, Flashe' no do
And you don't stop, sure shot
Go out to the parking lot
And you get in your car and you drive real far
And you drive all night and then you see a light
And it comes right down and lands on the ground
And out comes a man from Mars
And you try to run but he's got a gun
And he shoots you dead and he eats your head
And then you're in the man from Mars
You go out at night, eatin' cars
You eat Cadillacs, Lincolns too
Mercurys and Subarus
And you don't stop, you keep on eatin' cars
Then, when there's no more cars
You go out at night and eat up bars where the people meet
Face to face, dance cheek to cheek
One to one, man to man
Dance toe to toe
Don't move to slow, 'cause the man from Mars
Is through with cars, he's eatin' bars
Yeah, wall to wall, door to door, hall to hall
He's gonna eat 'em all
Rapture, be pure
Take a tour, through the sewer
Don't strain your brain, paint a train
You'll be singin' in the rain
I said don't stop, do punk rock

Well now you see what you wanna be
Just have your party on TV
'Cause the man from Mars won't eat up bars when the TV's on
And now he's gone back up to space
Where he won't have a hassle with the human race
And you hip-hop, and you don't stop
Just blast off, sure shot
'Cause the man from Mars stopped eatin' cars and eatin' bars
And now he only eats guitars, get up!


Deborah Harry invented the Rapture, you know.

(Actually, some of us contend it was really Mickey Hart.)

[DoNotRefill]

63. Hey, I'm looking FORWARD to the rapture!!!

My car sucks, so I am planning on getting a "new to me" car once the Rapture happens. Hey, it's not like they're going to file a police report from "heaven", is it???

:evilgrin:

[LostInAnomie]

64. Best thing that could ever happen to 144,000 virgin men.

Book of Revelations
14:3
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

14:4
These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb.


Darn, I knew I should have held out a little longer.

[hollowdweller]

66. It's all about how you interpret the scriptures.

Some Christians don't believe it.

Some believe Jesus will come back, but all the apocalypse type stuff isn't going to happen, that that stuff is more symbolic of the corruption of the church that the state of the world

Some Believe it literally.

In the New Testament Jesus said he would return, but he also said "the Kingom of God Is Within you" in another book so it's really open to interpretation.

[noel711]

68. Simply put, folks weren't taught....

the scripture in a wide-angle sense. People who really don't understand the point of holy scripture, and preachers too (!), use fear and judgment to hold folks in their hands.
People who have some sense understand that the Rapture (crap-ture)
is nonsense. Makes you wonder doesn't it?
Udo, you are correct in your statement that it came out of the 19th century "great awakening," a time of the exploration and development of the west, the growing awareness of the evils of slavery, and the early industrial revolution. It was a time of unsettleness and anxiety, of course which lead to the need for some security. This is a pattern in history where the "masses" find comfort in an "us vs. them" mentality. This leads to "I'm going to heaven and you're not."
Sound a lot like life in our time...