A fundies home schooled children cannot Read or Write.

[TWiley]

He has 5 from age 6 to 15, and none can read, write, or do much with arithmetic. I cringe at the thought of their "science" and "social studies" programs.

His family is part of a group of home schoolers that have started their own school. He proudly told me that "Adam cannot read or write, but he has the deepest understanding of scripture in his class." "That" he concluded, "Is the work of the Holy Spirit"

Does the "No Child Left Behind Mandate" affect religious home-schoolers, or just the public system?

It seems to me that these crazies should be guilty of child abuse.

[Liberal Veteran]

1. I'd report them....

If they can't read or write, they aren't doing their job.

[TWiley]

8. Are they subjected to the same rules as the

public school system?

[Liberal Veteran]

17. Yes. They are.

And if they aren't doing their job then something can be done.

[Maddy McCall]

27. Depends on your state's laws. But I would say, generally, NO.

You'd have to check with your state's laws to know whether or not there are any educational requirements.

In many states, there aren't.

[w4rma]

177. So you are saying that this abuse can go without any possibility for

rectification? Do you support this abuse?

[proud2BlibKansan]

69. Not in my state they aren't.

They can pretty much do whatever they want. And of course they don't have to test their kids like every public school in the state does.

I actually know a kid who is being homeschooled while his parents work full time.

[TWiley]

102. How does that work?

Is he home alone teaching himself?

[kath]

118. Many ways it could work. Perhaps the parents work staggered shifts.

Perhaps a relative helps out. Depending on the age of the child, s/he could do quite a bit of his/her learning fairly independently, and the parents could go over it when they're around. Remember some of the "self-paced learning" or "programmed instruction" courses that were around twenty or so years ago? - they take the material little steps at a time and not much teacher input is necessary.
Some of the world's very influential people were auto-didacts. Lincoln, for instance.

There are also correspondence courses, some of which are available over the internet. Older kids can take courses at a community college.

Learning doesn't have to be "just like school", don'cha know, and it doesn't have to occur just between the hours of 8:30 - 3:00 Mon-Fri. Learning also doesn't need to involve a teacher spoon-feeding material into a kid. Lots of learning can occur without textbooks.

[sandnsea]

151. Not exactly

I think every state has laws about attendance and other teaching requirements. The problem is getting somebody to enforce the regulations on the books, which as you say, the system doesn't do. Maybe we should start a movement on that. Even though I think only 3% of kids nationwide are homeschooled. It's not alot, although the resulting ignorance of some of these kids does seem to be contagious.

http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/laws/blKS.htm

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

132. Not sure, but

I talked to someone who home schools in FL. They are required to have the kid evaluated from time to time (not sure how frequently, probably yearly) to make sure that they are meeting state standards for their age group. If the child is not performing, then the state will no longer allow the kid to be home schooled. The kid must then attend a public school.

[tsuki]

144. Yearly and yes they must pass. In Florida, if you are home schooling

and your child is in the 11th grade, passes the tests, he can be "dual enrolled" at a junior college at the county's expense just like the public school children. Many home schooled children graduate high school with an AA.

[goddess40]

170. In WI they just sign a waiver and the state doesn't bother them

I would LOVE to see some young adult sue their parents for not educating them. But then a kid that can't read or write probably wouldn't know about such things.

I know that plenty of home schoolers do a great job but they resists any kind of state intervention to make sure the kids are making progress or are safe. That opens the door to abusers and lazy parents to abuse and neglect their children. They sign a sheet of paper saying they will be responsible to educate their children and no one checks on the progress or safety of the kids. It happens and I don't think it is so wrong to subject home schooled kids to an occasional test to make sure all the kids are progressing and safe.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cags]

3. That is just wrong, but most homeschooled children are more advanced

than public schooled kids.

[Maddy McCall]

6. Yep. I homeschool my son. Thanks for pointing out that fact.

:toast:

[TWiley]

10. I have heard that before.

I would tend to believe that it would have to do with the wealth of the family. I do not believe that is the case with the poorer familes.

Do you know where there is any statistical proof of this?

[Liberal Veteran]

14. It stands to reason that with essentially a private tutor, you'd do better

I don't think home schooling is for all people. Some just aren't cut out for it and others have to work, but if you can and you are willing to do a good job, then more power to you.

[Maddy McCall]

21. That's the purpose of homeschool associations...

But please remember that any student can attend his or her local public school for any subject. If I want my son to take algebra at his public school, he can go for that one hour each day.

[kath]

28. This is NOT true in most states, Maddy (being able to go to PS for just 1

or 2 subjects, or even for hs'ers to be able to participate in extracurriculars such as sports)

[Maddy McCall]

34. As I was saying, you have options...

If you join a good homeschool association, then many times parents will pool their finances and HIRE a teacher to teach the tough subject to the kids.

[TWiley]

36. Is this a legal requirement, or is it strictly up to the financial

abilities of the association? Please note that you are inferring that there are educational advantages associated with education.

[elehhhhna]

74. What's not a "tough subject'?

And I'm not attacking you. Questions are buying signs.

[I_equals_PRT]

124. anything that is not hard science is not a tough subject, you just have to

be able to read to learn history, philosophy, languages, psychology. The only subjects you may have a problem with are the hard sciences, and in my state, yes, kids can just go to PS for one class if they want.

[ebayfool]

142. Maddy - do you know if that is true in Calif? That would solve my ...

main conflict w/home study & my grandson. If he could attend a couple of classes a day, it would take some of the hard load (i.e. algebra) off me & give him the social contact he needs. I will check into this tomorrow, just wondered if you knew if this applied in Calif.

[Liberty Belle]

145. Yes, it does.

You can home school for 4 or more subjects, so 1 or 2 can be taken at school.

The 4-subject minimum is so that the homeschool office at the school district gets the ADA money. I had to get lots of different people to give permission before they'd let me homeschool my daughter for just 1 subject (because she was a competitive skater and needed to arrive at school late). I thought it was stupid that the district was pushing us into homeschooling when we really wanted to have her at school as much as possible.

For any classes that are homeschooled, you have to meet with a teacher at the homeschool office periodically (typically every week or two, depending on the teacher) plus your child has to pass periodic tests, turn in homework and do special projects.

[ebayfool]

155. Thank you for the info! I may just try it w/something basic & let him ...

see how he likes it. There is a lengthy waiting list for our schooling program, I don't want to take him out. He just needs a little contact w/other kids his age, this way we can have the best of both worlds. I know it sounds selfish to some people, but I intend to give him the best I can - he needs a good education so he doesn't have to use his back to make a living when he's grown. Algebra probably needs to taken care of some other way (I'm looking for a tutor that needs housecleaning - the boy is getting way over my head!), but it would serve well for subjects that they couldn't slow him down in.

[Toots]

216. That is not correct

I home schooled my children because I lived in a community where no school was available. There were times I came to the "big city" for supplies and what not and while there wanted my children enrolled for the few days we were in town. They refused and said there were insurance concerns among others. It just was not allowed. :shrug: I would not reccommend home schooling unless you wish to spend all your time as a teacher and none as yourself.

[NYC]

58. Depends on the quality of the tutor.

[TWiley]

103. Granted, but you could buy a good one

with plenty of cabbage. In fact, Royals, and prominent families have long done this.

[Maddy McCall]

From where did you get that correlation?

Definitely NOT what I have seen and experienced, but I would never make such a grand pronouncement from anecdotal evidence.

[TWiley]

33. I was asking for statistical evidence of any kind.

I would assume that wealthier families could provide more rescourses than the poorer ones. This is simply an economic truth. I did not state it as a fact, or attempt to draw a correlation though.

I was asking if anyone had statistical evidence of any kind to bring to the discussion.

[cags]

37. In California many of the public school districts have charter school

programs, which are basically homeschool programs, and the government gave me $1000 a year to choose my daughters school books, supplies etc. So money was not even an issue. A parent can homeschool thier children with better materials for less than the public schools do with sub standard materials.

[kath]

48. These programs are not the same as homeschooling, & by taking their $$

your are subject to their "standards".

[cags]

92. Right, but nothing stops me from exceeding the standards,

Don't you think at least meeting the standards is a good thing?

[TWiley]

104. I would think so.

After all, the republicans are using this idea to pilliage the public school system

[elehhhhna]

77. yeah Santorum 'home schools" his kids on the internets, at the cost of

taxpayers in a state he doesn't even LIVE in!

[ultraist]

127. Poverty is the biggest factor for poor academic achievement

For students in public schools, poverty is the biggest factor for poor academic achievement. I'm not sure if this could be generalized to homeschool students or not, but those who can afford tutors, online professors, music lessons, educational fieldtrips, materials, etc. likely are able to provide better educations. Many children of movie stars are homeschooled by tutors and end up in Ivey league Universities.

Education and income are also postively correlated, so it's reasonable to assume that more educated/higher income parents make for better homeschool teachers.

I think this fundie family could be charged with child neglect. There was a case in our area where homeschooled young teens were found to be illiterate and the parents were charged with neglect.

[tsuki]

147. This...

By the numbers
When it comes to the standard measures of school achievement, some studies show that home-schooled students outdo their counterparts in traditional schools. In 2000, the average SAT score for a home-schooler was 1100, compared with 1019 for the traditional student.

And 35 of the 265 finalists in the 2004 Scripps National Spelling Bee were home-schoolers. That translates to about 13 percent of finalists, though even the most generous estimates put those taught at home at 4 percent of the school-age population.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/08/13/b2s.homeschool/

Homeschoolers Excel In ACT College Entrance Exam


ACT Inc., producer of the ACT college entrance exam, reports that homeschool students scored an average of 22.6 for 2003. This compares with 20.9 for public school students for the same period.


Over the years there has been concern that homeschool students would not be able to compete effectively for places in colleges. It was said that homeschool parents simply couldn't educate their children to the college level. This is false.

http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/rudner1999/default.asp

There is a dark side. Most homeschooling associations are on the look out for abusive parents who homeschool and enroll in the association.

[tx_dem41]

148. Sorry to step in, but I believe the correlation the poster was...

looking for evidence on had to do with this statement:

"I would tend to believe that it would have to do with the wealth of the family. I do not believe that is the case with the poorer familes."

[elehhhhna]

176. I suspect it's the mental health of the family-- more than the wealth.

[elehhhhna]

175. How many HS kids TAKE the SAT? Without that info the stat's meaningless.

[cags]

20. I was homeschooled and we were dirt poor, and I was 3 grades ahead

of public schooled children. There are statistics, but you'll have to go look for them, I don't have time right now, I'm sure some of the other homeschoolers on this board could point you in the right direction.

I homeschooled my daughter for a year, because the public schools weren't cutting it. Wealth has nothing to do with it. I have problems with homeschooling but the academic side of it isn't one of them.

[Maddy McCall]

22. The best college students I teach are homeschooled.

Sorry, it's just the truth.

[cags]

30. When I was going through college, my major competition was also

the homeschooled kids (I'm very competitive)had to always have the best grades. LOL

[TWiley]

35. Then you are a College level educator then.

Where exactly is the correlation between yourself and someone who did not finish high school. Can you both teach as effectively?

[cags]

38. My mother did not finish high school, and I scored better on the tests

than 96% of all graduating high school students.

There is tons of resources out there for homeschooling parents.

[TWiley]

47. What is the correlation between poor families

who home school their children and those students you teach in college? Is it possible that they came from more affluent families?

I guarentee that the home schooled childred that I know would not be your best students.

[Orangepeel]

76. I bet the distribution would be bimodal

the ability of students who attend public school probably follow a normal distribution, just because there are so many of them.

It makes sense to me that lots of home schooled students would be at either end of that distribution. Because they are being home schooled, they either have highly involved parents who give them lots of personalized instruction, or they have parents who want to keep them ignorant of the outside world, like the example cited in the original post.

If you are teaching the home schooled children who have gone on to college, it is likely that they are on the high end of the distribution. Naturally, you don't see the home schooled children who received poor educations because they wouldn't be in college.

I have no idea how many home schooled children fall in either category, but I'm sure there are plenty of examples of each. Most people aren't crazy fundies who value ignorance, so I expect (and certainly hope) that there will be more in the "good" category than the "bad."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

110. I know a fundamentalist couple who homeschools their children

The last time I saw them (they are relatives of my stepfather) the ten-year-old was studying out of second grade materials from a fundamentalist home schooling association. The children all seemed to be intelligent enough to be working at the normal grade level for their ages, but their parents were such flakes that I wouldn't be surprised if the "schooling" was hit-and-miss.

[phylny]

113. One of my cousins (religious, evangelical Christian)

homeschooled all four of her kids. She was as disciplined as any teacher I've ever seen, down to lesson plans, tests, etc. When they got to more technical subjects (Chemistry, Calculus) either her husband took over, or the kids went to community college.

All four kids did wonderfully, and are delightful, if not insulated, kids. It's the "hit or miss" homeschool parents I'd worry about.

[TWiley]

178. Their parents were obviously well educated then.

Many parents have a difficult time helping children with Science and Mathmatics. College level English, Science, and Math classes are very demanding. They must be gifted to jump right in and do well like that.

[phylny]

183. Father was well-educated, and mother was a good student

in high school, but did not have any college. However, she did a wonderful job.

I've seen homeschooling done well, and not so well. They did a great job.

[kath]

184. Like public school - sometimes done well, sometimes not so well -

especially for poor kids, black kids, etc. Many come out of 13 (or now 14) years of public school and are quite ignorant, illiterate, innumerate, etc.

[TWiley]

186. What about parents who did not finish high school?

and have only studied fundamentalist religious viewpoints. Is it possible that their children may be disadvantaged?

[phylny]

194. Sure it is!

I'm not a really huge homeschooling supporter - I'm very supportive of public education.

Just pointing out, and trying to be fair, that I know of success stories as well :)

[phylny]

106. Do you ask your students where they've been schooled? n/t

[cornermouse]

53. I'm sorry.

More a comment on education provided by public schools rather than blowing my own horn.

Some uncounted years ago...ahem...I went to public school and according to tests, I was reading and comprehending senior year material in the 6th grade. Remember those end of the year tests? I regularly scored in the mid to high 90s. I took another one about a year ago in company with much, much younger students and still scored in the mid to high 90s. My public school educated kids have had similar results.

My point? Public schools can and do succeed. All you need is a parent who is interested, encouraging and involved. Basically the same ingredient that you have with homeschooling.

I would also point out that the only homeschooled student that I know flunked his GED.

[strategery blunder]

63. Is it that or low standards?

I also received similar scores in the 6th grade (I lived in AZ at the time). While I was no doubt above grade level, I remember thinking to myself, "Damn, am I really that smart or or high school seniors just that dumb?" Probably a combination of both, if you know what I mean...:(

[cornermouse]

71. Well, you know, when the tests are conducted nationally. ..

But if it makes you feel better, I've also received a respectable score on an IQ test given to me in the somewhat distant past.

I don't usually make a practice of bragging about myself, my kids yes, myself no. I am, however, really tired of seeing people turning teachers into their favorite whipping post when they deserve very real credit. There's also the fact that beating up on teachers is a preferred pasttime of republicans. I prefer not to do something that gives the republicans so much joy.

[elehhhhna]

81. You're honor-roll here n TX if you can spell your own name.

sarc/off

[MattBaggins]

68. I wonder if this is a regional thing as well

I was the top of class captain of the brain game when I was only in 9th grade. This seemed the norm for New York, where the home schoolers in college were anything but stellar students. In high school, home schoolers were all the thugs that had been kicked out every school in the county to the point that even BOCES would not take them. It must be that in really rural states, schools are so bad that home schooling seems like a blessing.

[phylny]

97. Yup (see my post below),

I attended school in New York.

[tsuki]

149. Edison was kicked out of public school and had to be home schooled.

[phylny]

95. In MY public school, when I was in sixth grade,

our English class was reading and studying 12th grade material. And this was WAY WAY back - 1970 :)

And, we weren't rich either, but my parents both knew the value of education and ingrained it in their children.

[tsuki]

150. The way that was explained to me is that you were not doing 12th grade

material, but it is the score a 12th grader would score if he were testing using that material.

[phylny]

160. No, the books we were reading were on a

12th grade reading level, books that were typically targeted for 12th grade students.

[elehhhhna]

78. Please tell the downside. Social?

[cags]

129. Ok I'm back, Yes I think there is a social disadvantage

My feelings come from my own personal experience. Of course homeschooling parents socialize there children, but its a different kind of social experience in a public school. Homeschooled children tend to be sheltered, thier socialization is controlled by the parent, so I don't think they get real world socialization. When they do go out into the real world it can be quite a culture shock. In public school you have to deal with mean people, you learn who you can trust and who you can't, when your socialization is controlled you don't get these kinds of experiences and you end up having to learn these lessons as an adult, which can be more harmful than learning them as a child.

Just my own experience

[elehhhhna]

162. Thanks. I figure that unless Ma & Pa anre going to also employ

the homeschooled children, they'll\ be in for a big adjustment in early-adulthood.

[youthere]

197. Sorry cags...I have to disagree..

with the socialization argument. My 3 children are homeschooled, and we participate in a homeschool assistance program. My kids attend fieldtrips and enrichment classes with other homeschooled kids (and their parents) of all different ages. My children have no difficulty socializing with anyone (and they are not naturally extroverted either). They are with people from different age groups and backgrounds all the time. Public school does not teach children social skills. It teaches them how to "get along" with children their own age. No other time in their life will they be in a situation only with people their own age. When they attend college there will be non-traditional students. At work, in public, clubs, churches, interest groups they belong to all will have people of different ages and backgrounds. When they were in public school they dealt with a very noticeable "grade bias" (ie: 3rd graders don't play with second graders, 1st graders pick on kindergardeners, etc. The social habits they picked up from public school were not healthy ones. When my son started spitting on girls and pushing and shoving others kids and fighting (just like the other kids) I was told "Boys will be boys" when I went to the school to see what I could do about it. When my daughters were cursing and picking on others kids to fit in with the "popular girls" I was told "girls can just be so mean, can't they?" The social "abilities" they pick up in public school are not ones I want my children to adopt. After all, I'm not raising little republicans. I want my kids to grow up and be decent human beings.

[cags]

208. You will have to wait and see when your kids are grown

Of course you won't see social problems now if the people they are around are handpicked. You are sheltering your children from having to deal with those social problems in public school which still exist into adult years. What I am saying is they will eventually have to deal with them when they are grown and go out into the real world. I feel it is less harmful to deal with them as a child than to go through it as an adult when it can do permanent damage. Being homeschooled and knowing many homeschooled adults, there is a culture shock that happens.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not knocking homeschool, I think there are pro's and con's to each. I pulled my own daughter one year from public school because academically they were not cutting it. But for my family I wouldn't do it throughout thier entire school years. I want my children to be able to handle the not so nice people, when they are grown, because as adults they will have to deal with them and I want them to have the skills to do that.

Hindsight is always 20/20. As parents we do our best and make choices that we think are best for our children. All kids are different and there are no right and wrong answers, just different ways of raising kids.

[sierrajim]

85. I have family in the Sonora area

and a local homeless (He and his mother were living in their car) and home schooled kid scored a 1600 on the S.A.T. this was a couple of years ago.

[phylny]

94. I know of home schooled kids who cannot hold a candle to my

children when it comes to what they know, how they can apply it, and other "school-related" things.

Such a blanket statement such as "home-schooled kids do better" is simply that - a blanket statement.

[youthere]

198. absolutely right.

BOTH depend on parental involvement and the values placed on education. The smartest child in the world can fail in the public school or the homeschool situation. I am a proponent of homeschooling because of reasons described above. I resent the increasingly fundamental bias I see infilltrating the public school system and the warped morality that results from it.Just my humble opinion.

[ebayfool]

133. It has a lot more to do with how dedicated the teaching adult & the ...

child are, rather than their income levels. It takes a great deal more effort if you have to work & teach your child. I have home schooled my grandson for the last 3 years as well as being the sole provider. It's hard, but worth getting him away from the small PUBLIC school that he was attending. Student population of @ 60 (grades K - 8), totally being absorbed by the church next door to it. Legal or not, they are doing their best to take over the school. For us, there was no other option until we moved to a bigger town. BTW, he would be in 8th grade in public school, but the state tests place his level at being over 12th grade level. He is taking the accelerated courses, & will be able to take college classes next year while finishing his high school courses (if he wishes, I'm leaving that door open for him to decide - I don't approve pushing a kid to overachieve unless he really wants it). They do have state regs in Calif & the students that home school are required to take the exact same formal state testing (CAT, constitution, etc) that public school kids take.

[kath]

137. Actually, in California independent homeschoolers, i.e. NOT those who are

receiving state money and learning at home under the supervision of the state, can file a form that essentially declares them a private school. These independent homeschoolers are not subjected to standardized testing.
See: http://www.nhen.org/leginfo/detail.asp?StateCode=California

and:
http://www.nhen.org/leginfo/detail_code.asp?StateCode=California

[ebayfool]

139. TY for the link, I hadn't realized how wide open the laws were @ this.

We fall under the 'enrollment in a charter school independent study program operated by the school district' - I think. I submit the courses of study (lesson plans) we want to do to the charter school, as well as documentation of what he has studied. They log it & submit to the state as well as arrange for him to take the state tests (they also periodically test on their own). They also keep a library & stock materials for the families to use in their lessons. The level of involvement by the staff is pretty much up to the parents, if you don't feel sure of yourself, they will completely set your lesson plans for you (like public school, you just do all the work at home) or you can accelerate the pace & let your child go wherever your teaching wants to take you. The main criteria is that they show proficiency on the state requirements, which does mean including the use of their textbooks on the basics. There is a small staff of credentialed teachers on site if parents need help. Unfortunately, the only time I REALLY needed help was when we had an algebra question - they had no clue what the answer was, except what was in the answer book. Ended up going to the local college to talk to an educator there - LOL, he said we (Gabe) were right, the textbook was wrong! 11 years old, challenging the algebra1 text & answer book - thatsa my boy!

[kath]

140. Good for him, challenging the text! Sadly, if he were in school and

challenged the teacher on such a thing, there's a pretty good chance that the teacher would be quite pissed off at him for challenging his/her authority, and pointing out that the teacher was wrong.

Are you saying that the "credentialed teachers" on site had no clue?? hmmmmm.

Once you gain some confidence in your (and your spouse's) ability to guide your son's education, you may decide to go it alone, free of all the state's testing requirements and the limitations of their structured curriculum, textbooks, etc. There's a vast treasure trove of homeschooling resources out there. There are also lots of liberal homeschoolers in CA (unfortunately I'm in OK, where the majority of homeschoolers are fundie whackjob Bushbots. :-( ) Try Home Education Magazine and their wonderful website: http://www.homeedmag.com/ Also see NHEN's website (where I found the CA laws I posted above) http://www.nhen.org/
NHEN was founded in large part to serve as a counter to H$LDA (actually, their real name has an "s" instead of the "$" :-)), the right-wing Christian homeschooling organization.

[ebayfool]

146. No spouse, just me & my grandson. I would go off the umbilical cord & ...

do it w/out the state charter, but since I work (I'm a housekeeper) it's tough to break completely free. I'm beat up when I get home, & finances aren't that healthy. It works pretty well using their basic textbooks, though. The college library & the internet are great sources for the rest. We keep them happy. He can blow through that work in a hurry, it's not that demanding - same as when he was in school. The beautiful part is when we embark on our own path. You never can be sure where it will take you, he may start out working on a study of a local bug & end up doing a project on deforestation & it's effects on flora & fauna in S. America (he really did this). It is essentially an education without limits, you just can't get that in most public schools.
BTW - The algebra challenge ... first I had gone in because I didn't understand the question, how to do it. They didn't know, either. They told me just mark it wrong, go on to the next thing. Naturally, that bugged - it's all empirical, you can't skip. The 2 of us figured it out by looking at the answer & backtracking to figure out the process. Still, not the same result as the book. That's when we went to the local college & found out the answer Gabe got was the correct one. This has happened twice in 3 years, but it did give him a lesson in accepting the stock answer & defending a hypothesis. His charter school does love him though, his teacher said he is the easiest student to counsel because he is so bright & eager to learn. He had lost that eagerness in public school, he was bored & unstimulated, now he glories in new discovery! She used to teach at the public school he would be going to in our area. She refuses to send her own kids there, they go to a private school in the district where they are building a new house.

[roguevalley]

45. what an absurd statement. They are as 'advanced' as their

teachers and many are woefully under educated. I have done both and taught for 27 years in public schools. The home schooled kids I got
and they were legion because about fourth grade the parents enthusiasm
begins to wane as the skills required to teach go up.

Its the deep teaching, the explanations that teachers are trained to give that seemed to be lacking. Sure, a lot of them got a lot of stuff
but there is something missing from direct instruction from someone trained to see and tell and correct things that parents often miss because they aren't trained to do that.

Charter schools also have been tested and they aren't doing better than public schools. I get weary of the assumption that teaching is this easy thing that anyone can do. After getting kids in sixth grade from home school that too often test from two to five years behind the curve, I can tell you a good kid from a home school program is rarer than you think. Would that it were different.

[kath]

50. "deep teaching" in the current climate of standardized-testing mania

and the mile-wide-and-half-an-inch-deep "Bunch o'Facts" curriculum that results? Many good teachers are leaving the field because of this.

[roguevalley]

131. one of the many reasons I left. Everyone is leaving.

[elehhhhna]

72. i ain't arguing but can we see some stats from an unbiased source? Pls.

[Djinn]

98. academically perhaps

many however are behind socially - not all, obviously there's a big range between the parents who despair at the shite education provided by underresourced schools and ones who want to teach their kids "nuttin but god's word" but on the whole children who spend their days with up to a thousand other people learn social skills more quickly than someone who spends the vast majority of his/her time in erlatively small groups.

That said I'm amazed that in some states there is apparently no guidelines/testing etc - what are these kids going to do for income

[phylny]

107. Not only that, but unless they're doing group projects in their homeschool

associations or groups, they're missing out on a necessary evil of school - doing a project with people who aren't as motivated/intelligent/honest as you are.

It teaches loads of skills, not all of them strictly "educational."

:)

[Djinn]

108. exactly

school teaches WAY moer than the three R's - it teaches you that a large segment of the population will give you the total and utter shits and you need to learn how to deal with that!

[phylny]

111. A little anecdote (and it may bore the pants off of you, sorry)

but when I was doing my speech-languge pathology public school graduate practicum in a high school, I worked with a kid who was brilliant (!) but cluttered his speech - lots of interjected words that weren't part of a clear message - and my supervisor was a real PITA.

Anyway, we were trying to help this kid with his speech, and he talked about having to do a group project and he wasn't too happy about it. My supervisor agreed with him saying, "My father always told me that it was better to do things by yourself! Then you'd know it would come out just the way you wanted to, and you'd do quality work."

Sigh.

I replied, "Group projects are important because they teach you how to work together with others in a group - and how to help the group reach YOUR standards, and do it in a polite, yet effective way. I can't think of anything better to help prepare you for adulthood."

Needless to say, the kid ended up in the group project and found out that the educational peons weren't all that bad :)

[ebayfool]

135. Right on the button @ social skills. That is the only drawback that ...

has made me even consider putting my boy in public school. At 13 he is feeling more of a need to be around groups of kids, & the only options other than public school involve an outlay of cash that we just don't have. I know he needs this contact in order to be a functional adult, but I am frankly terrified to put in in the school in our area. I have personally had to pull a kid off the street into my car when they (2 different boys, at different times) & take them home, they were getting the crap beat out of them by a group of thugs right after school ... right across the street from the school. I would try for an out of district transfer, but they are woefully hard to get - and I'm not certain the other schools would be any better?! My grandson has to learn to live in the real world, I know - but he can't take any kind of physical pummeling & come out of it intact. I really wish this were simple as it was when my daughters were in school, but they have degenerated, in many areas, to the point where the kids aren't getting a real education (other than the kind that convicts learn in prison - survival of the fittest, & the rest how to roll up & cover your vitals).

[cags]

167. I totally understand that, I moved to another state to get away from

schools like that. In your case I would have no problem homeschooling until I could get into a better school district

[AngryAmish]

173. Why don'y you just teach your granson how to fight?

Fighting is a useful skill for a young man.

[ebayfool]

179. He has had multiple surgeries - no colon or lrg intestine, missing ...

part of sml intestine, 1st surgery & ostomy at 4 days old - ileostomy at 3. Fighting (blows to abdomen) is not a good idea. He would stand a fair chance of ending up w/another ileostomy bag for the rest of his life. He's had enough operations to last anyone a lifetime, & I'm not willing to take the chance some little punk wants to prove himself taking on the new kid w/bathroom issues. I do see your point, though. My daughters learned to defend themselves early on. Gabe will have to learn to avoid those situations or learn to deflect w/his intelligence. A better choice of schools would be nice, ours is hoodlum haven!

[AngryAmish]

180. I'm sorry to hear that

I am not even sure that a "good" school would help. Kids are monsters. I went to a Catholic grade and high school in a nice suburb. We were awful to each other. Plenty of bullying, lots of fighting. Boys of a certain age are horrible to each other. It is their nature.

[kath]

185. oh, puh-leeze!

[MHalblaub]

100. Who well homeschooled are at faking statistics? -NT-

[Vincardog]

4. No Child Left Behind covers Home Schools too

It does not pay for them either.

[Maddy McCall]

No it doesn't.

[proud2BlibKansan]

75. You are right Maddy

NCLB applies only to traditional public schools, not charters, not private schools and not homeschools.

[salin]

215. It also doesn't cover wealthy public schools

because the trigger for the negative consequences is federal dollars; and those are primarily for special education and title one (money based on having a high proportion of students on free and reduced lunch) and a few other federal categorical programs... any public school that serves few students in these categories and thus doesnt receive a great deal of money (or is wealthy enough not to miss the funds) can opt out of the program. And many wealthier districts have opted out of NCLB.

[TWiley]

13. Vouchers may pay for them

another Bushtapo mandate.

[bluestateguy]

5. If we ever have vouchers, I hope these people can't get money

Home schoolers are always eager to bring up the cases of the home-schooled child who wins the national spelling bee, or scores a 1600 on the SAT, or gets into Harvard. Usually these kids are not from religious fundamentalist homes.

We never seem to hear much about the above cases.

[TWiley]

43. Unfortunately, the trend will probably be that they "double dip"

First, they will get cash from the "Faith based iniatives" program, next they will start a school and get voucher money.

Watch what happens to this country when bush outsources all social welfare programs to the fundamentalist religious community

[elehhhhna]

83. Here in TX you deduct your church (private) school tuition as a tithe .

The Churches are, of course, in cahoots on this fraudulent and illegal scam...

[TWiley]

101. I did not know that, but I am not suprised

Maybe we should try to broaden the defination of tithe to include the DNC, and any organization opposed to the Right Wing.

And why not? Most religious outfits are supporters of the RNC and are opposed to Democrats.

[Bridget Burke]

169. Deduct it from what?

There's no income tax in Texas.

[elehhhhna]

174. Federal tax returns, Bridget! Can you believe the nerve?

It's a charity deduction, complete with falsified (by the Church!!!) documentation for the IRS!

[Big_Mike]

61. I didn't like the way the kids acted in the Middle School

So I placed my daughter on Home School. I supervised and checked her home work every night. She scored very well on the State mandated testing every year (between 92 and 98 in all her subjects).

Mainly, IMHO, it takes a parent who cares and will enforce the rules and have the child do the work. I looked up the requirements for what the child must know for each grade, and geared her studies for those years (Grade 6-8).

[tsuki]

152. We have "zero tolerance" schools here, and some of the parents are

scared to death of them. Too many stories of children being threatened with the police or lead off in handcuffs, sent to alternate schools or having their permanent files loaded.

They home school starting 7th grade, and in the 11th ship them off to the community colleges.

I might add, this is a very fundamentalist, conservative area. "Zero tolerance" does not only apply to drugs, it applies to everything, any dissent or "bad" behavior. And a loaded permanent file can finish a college career before it begins.

With the rules in the schools here, I would have never finished. Fortunately, Son was schooled at a parochial school for the first eight, and I clandestinely sent him into the neighboring county for high school.

[elehhhhna]

82. I'm guessing those kids' parents chose H'schooling becasue of lack of...

challenges in the Public shl. curriculum. Super advanced children do not have a huge arsenal of resources at hand in pub. schools... yes?

[phylny]

99. I guess it depends upon where you live.

I have three children who went/still go to public school (oldest is in college).

One of the three of them was never in a "gifted" class, but she's the definition of gifted. She did well throughout school, took lots of AP classes and honors classes in high school, and felt challenged and happy. She's at a prestigious university now.

Another one has been in gifted programs (and she's less "gifted" than the one I talked about above) and has done well. The other child is a wonderful student, not "gifted," but in all honors classes and doing well.

In four states, we've had no problem finding a school system that works well for them. They've been challenged plenty.

I'm sure it depends upon where you live - as we've moved, we've shopped school systems, and can afford to live in good ones (please understand there are plenty of families in these school districts who do not have much money, but their kids are getting the same education).

In all honesty, in four school systems, my children have been blessed with phenomenal teachers. So, to all teachers, I say THANK YOU FOR WHAT YOU'VE DONE FOR MY KIDS!

[carpetbagger]

207. In San Antonio, each child gets a wonderful remedial education.

Unfortunately, the only thing my daughter had yet to learn in Kindergarten from the day we enrolled her on was to answer "I don't know" to questions she knew the answer to. When she learned that, we yanked her.

[youthere]

199. I have a friend ...

major fundy. Homeschools her children and uses extreme Christian curriculum. It amazes me the misinformation and distortions found in the materials. I mean we're talking Dark Ages. Her kids learn Jesus math, Jesus history, Jesus science, Jesus reading, Jesus writing. No surprise that they are all consistantly 3 years behind their age level but damn! they sure know their bible!

[AwakeAtLast]

7. NCLB =

No (public school) child left behind. Any private or home school can do whatever the hell they want, and there is *no* system of accreditation whatsoever. And this is where students will go when all of the public schools *fail* (vouchers). What a great system!

:grr:

[Maddy McCall]

12. I homeschool my son...

I'd put him up beside any local public school student on ANY subject ANY day. He'd cream his competition.

[AwakeAtLast]

24. I am happy for you and your son

but I believe that any educator should be held to the same standards, which clearly is not happening in this family's case. You obviously do have them, or your son would not be able to stand up to the competition.

edit for 2-year-old smacking at the keyboard while trying to type!

[Maddy McCall]

31. Think about what you are saying...

Many of the homeschooling parents I know pulled their children out of public school because public education failed their children.

Why force NCLB BACK into their children's education?

[AwakeAtLast]

42. I'm not saying that is what I would want

I am saying that is where education under this administration is headed. I guess what gets me is that NCLB is crammed down my throat every day, and then I read this. Ugh!

I truly am happy that home schooling was best for your family, but I am also happy that your son had parents who could handle the challenge with integrity. It is obvious that not every parent can do that!

:)

[youthere]

200. Every state has different regulations on homeschooling

and obviously some are more lax than others. Our state requires students to be evaluated in one of three manners:

1.State testing
2. Portfolio (you keep a "diary" of assigments and completed work and pay a certified teacher to evaluate it)
3.Home School Assistance Program. (Only certain school districts have these and you have to open enroll your kids.)

We use the assistance program and work with a teacher provided through the assistance program 10 times a year. Home schooled kids only have to be schooled here for 140 days, so you are meeting with your teacher about every 2 1/2 weeks. You have constant feedback and guidance. It's been wonderful for us but not everyone is so lucky. Even with our requirements it is entirely too easy for kids to slip through the cracks and fall behind. I think a lot depends on whether or not the parents want and work for the best for their kids or they want to promote their own agenda (ie Fundies). We have a church here that has a certified teacher to evaluate portfolios of homeschooled students and basically "rubber stamps" them..as long as the parents are focusing on Jaysus.

[antigone382]

16. Well, as I posted below, I had to take tests when I was homeschooled.

The state of Georgia required that my brothers and I take standardized tests to show that our education wasn't being neglected. I don't know if tests like that are required in other states, but they certainly should be.

[AwakeAtLast]

29. I agree with you

I live in Indiana, and there are no such tests. Home-schooled students actually call local high schools asking when their diplomas will be ready! Some parents here don't even realize that if you home school, there is no diploma for their children - only a GED.

[elehhhhna]

86. Sure it's a GED but they're still the Valedictorian of the Class...

[proud2BlibKansan]

79. No tests required in MO

The homeschool lobby fights it every time it is brought up in the state legislature.

[purji]

9. But but but

How are they going to read their bibles.

[TWiley]

15. They don't

They merely recite the verses retained in memory.

[MountainLaurel]

115. Just like the madrassahs n/t

[SharonAnn]

19. Their religious leader will tell them what they need to know.

No need for them to get all kinds of confusing ideas from reading the bible themselves, especially the New Testament.

[antigone382]

11. What state is this in?

I was homeschooled in Georgia from 1st grade through 7th, and I had to take tests every few years to make sure I was progressing comparably to public school students (and since I had to substitute National Geographic, my mom's books, and nature for the cable TV that we didn't have, I generally surpassed public school kids of my age and grade).

What that guy is doing is indeed a crime to his kids and to society. I'm amazed that that kind of disregard for his children's education is legally allowed.

[TWiley]

23. Michigan.

I know another guy named Roy who home schooled his son. Little Roy cannot read or write either. I gave him a little money some years ago, and took him to the store shopping. He was uncertain of the change he recieved, or if he had enough money to buy the shoes in the first place. I was almost moved to tears.

[knitter4democracy]

67. Michigan has some strict regulations, if I remember right.

This needs to be reported. As you well know, our state's funding crisis makes it so that homeschoolers often don't get checked up on enough. I would first start by talking to someone in your school district's administration offices. They would at least know whom to forward the situation to.

I hope someone helps those kids.

[Carni]

80. I have neighbors that homeschool their daughter

Supposedly...

The kid is ten and she acts like she's about six.

I have no idea what the child's intellectual level is or how she would test...but as far as social skills go she is grossly underdeveloped.

The people are rip roaring born again Christians and I have a feeling that there isn't a lot of material (outside of their particular brand of weirdo religious dogma) being presented to the child.

The mother is an out and out nutcase as far as I am concerned and they are not poor (They are sucking up some type of church related $$$'s currently probably from bush's "compassionate capitol" program)

I mention this because I am in MI and I am indeed wondering IF there ARE any tests, or requirements--if my neighbor is any indication I don't think so. I can't ask because I don't speak to them AT ALL.

On edit: Good God I meant to type "homeschool" not "homeschools their daughter" (No, I am am not the product of a REALLY bad public school lol my typing just leaves a lot to be desired!)

[TWiley]

112. That is my experience also.

The home schooled children that I know seem grossly underdeveloped in social areas as well.

I am sure there are some genuine home school success cases out there, some have even posted their experiences in this thread.

Myself, I have not met one in person yet. Not one that I know of anyway.

[Carni]

117. I think homeschooling can be a positive approach

And I actually know people that have very bright responsible children that have been homeschooled...but the success stories usually seems to take place in progressive areas and there isn't any fundie mumbo jumbo involved.

[Cuban_Liberal]

18. They must not live in Illinois.

Illinois' law requires home-schooled children to take standardized achievement tests every two years, and pass them.

[kath]

39. Actually, Illinois does NOT require standardized testing.

In Illinois, a home school is considered in the same way as any other private school, and private schools are not subjected to many restrictions in the state.

[Modem Butterfly]

25. I've known a few homeschoolers in this category

I think that there are probably a substantial number of children who are being mis-educated, or not educated at all, or whose family keeps them "homeschooled" in order to abuse them without interferance. I don't think these are the majority of cases, but I also don't believe the rosy picture painted by homeschool advocates themselves.

[Jazzgirl]

26. Interesting...My niece is in a fundmental religious school.

She is almost fourteen and they don't use books. She has been taught to be an under-achiever. She has never had to complete anything. She starts a project (music, sports, anything) and when it begins to get more difficult she quits. No encouragement to complete anything she starts. My brother and her Mom are divorced. I so wish he had custody but unfortunately he is in Afghanistan now.... I fully expect that if something doesn't happen soon (its just about too late) she has a full life of low standards ahead of her. If she could be home schooled by someone knowledgeable, maybe she would survive...

JG

[TWiley]

40. Maybe it would be better to whisk her off to a public school.

She might receive the help she needs there.

At her age though, she might not have the social skills necessary to cope in high school.

[BigEdMustapha]

32. answering a few home school questions

1. It depends on what state you are in as to weather or not the kids are monitored or tested by the local school district. I live in Texas (where my wife and I home school our two boys) and there are no requirements for us to even inform the school district that we are homeschooling.

2. The only statistics published recently regarding homeschooling performance versus public school kids were conducted and released by the Home School Legal Defense Foundation (HSLDA) which is a very right-wing group. I don't trust the statistics for one main reason - most of the home school parents have to volunteer to have their kids tested to be compared against public school kids - so of course parents like you mention are not going to have their kids tested. So the numbers are suspect at best.

3. I would certainly refuse any voucher or government money when it comes to homeschooling my kids - the moment you start taking money from them, you simply become part of the system. The whole reason we home school is to get away from the ridiculous testing the conduct nonstop. So I'll pass on vouchers or govt funds because it will likely come with the requirements of testing and oversight.

[Taxloss]

41. Great post, BigEdMustapha. Welcome to DU.

eom

[kath]

46. thanks for your great post, BEM. Especially #3.

We are also very glad to be free of the stupid standardized-testing-mania. And for that reason we don't want govt $$, because they come with strings attached.


Since the public schools are funded with taxpayer$$, it is reasonable for them to have some standards/accountability to the taxpayer. But how I raise and educate my kids is MY business, not the government's. (and since schools are teaching large groups of kids at one time, some sort of "grade-level" standards are necessary. But these are not magical, mandatory standards. Some homeschooled kids (or kids in "free school" type settings such as the Sudbury Valley School) do not learn to read at the "grade level" standard of first grade, and they do just fine. Why should it be carved in stone that Egypt is covered in X grade, Amer. History in Y grade, this type of science in Z grade, that type of science in Q, etc.? In homeschooling when things are "covered" is flexible. We take a "big picture" view of our kids' education in our house, and are confident that by age 18 they will be more than ready for college. Yeah, they haven't memorized the same little facts that the neighborhood schooled kids have, but they know a *whole* lot more than them in many areas (and with a deeper understanding than the "bunch o'facts" approach to education gives p.s. kids). They love to read and they remain curious about the world around them. Most kids have the love of learning totally squashed out of them by 2nd or 3rd grade due to the drudgery and repetition of school I certainly don't freak out (or much care) that their handwriting or spelling might be below some arbitrary "grade level" standard at this point in time. By 18-19, all will be in place for college success.)

And don't even get me started about how most high schools these days treat teenagers as if they have no civil rights at all...

[I_equals_PRT]

73. you are right, Mommy, if your kids love to read, the rest will follow

and they are much better off learning at home than in schools. I did it and my kids have college degrees. Your kids will too. Best wishes for every success! PS on edit, turn off the TV. We had our kids convinced the TV was in the closet because it was broken for 3 years. They were really pissed when they discovered the truth, but they were also pissed when they discovered there is no Santa.

[elehhhhna]

87. Excellent point!

[TWiley]

49. Welcome to DU Big Ed

And, thank you for point 2.

Your post demonstrates open-mindedness, and a refreshing breath of honesty.

[I_equals_PRT]

70. Good plan, Poppy! I like it! n/t

[givemebackmycountry]

44. This makes me sick, just sick enough to vomit....

Here is my favorite part of this sad story:

He proudly told me that "Adam cannot read or write, but he has the deepest understanding of scripture in his class."
"That" he concluded, "Is the work of the Holy Spirit"

It's the work of the Holy Spirit.

Because as we all know, the HOLY SPIRIT wants poor Adam to grow up to be functionally illiterate, and be unable to hold his own in todays competitive work environment.

Adam will be able to quote scripture chapter and verse, but he won't be able to make more than minimum wage because he can't read or write or preform basic mathematical skills.

I'm telling you, every time I read a story like this my hatred for these so called "Christians" grows by leaps and bounds.

This is what they want. For all of us.

We have to rise up and stop them... stop them before their narrow view of the world and blinding allegiance and belief in their bible slowly become our laws.

They are as bad as the Taliban and remarkably similar to radical Muslims.

I can't wait for the next one to get in my face with their "have you been saved yet" bullshit.

Watch out America, they think it's their country, and they are going to fight us tooth and nail.

[elehhhhna]

89. 10 bucks says they're just waiting for the Apocolypse, anyway.-

Why bother with fancy ( and pesky) book-learnin?

[TWiley]

114. Yer not that far off

He does believe the end of the world is coming. He (the father) was all wrapped up in the Y2K crap.

[elehhhhna]

163. makes sense. (!?!)

[richmwill]

51. Unbelievable

The kids can't read or write, but they sure know how to praise Jesus! (Or do they call him Gezus?)

What a future these kids have- the parents deserve good, hard slaps.

[queeg]

52. We should encourage this.

I believe that as good Democrats we should encourage this. I have no problem with teeming masses of functionally illiterate republicans. (not much different from today)

They will be easier to herd at that point.

There will come a point where there is no position requiring intelligence of any sort that will be held by a repug, and they will slowly inbreed and die off. (not much different from today)

[annabanana]

60. Darwin Rules!

"Who?"

[elehhhhna]

91. Good news: they'll enlist in the mil (preventing a general draft I hope)-

Bad news: They'll vote as a block.

[RPM]

105. Bzzzzzt

I think the military only wants literates....

[elehhhhna]

164. that was back in the day when the Mil could be picky...

[TWiley]

158. Actually, you make a good point.

I mean what the hell, why not go with it.

As it is, the average "patriotic" republican does not think, he merely regurgatates the daily talking point he heard on the Rush Limbaugh fantasy hour.

I have often wondered how they delt with so much evidence contrary to their position, and Voloia' you gave me the answer.

THEY CANNOT READ !

[ChairOne]

54. Then they're just as good as public school kids! /eom

[Baconfoot]

55. I haven't found any decent statistics on homeschooling.

Comparing average ACT and SAT scores doesn't tell you anything unless you also know: 1)The percentage of homeschoolers who take these exams (Anecdotal evidence suggests this percentage to be much smaller than the percentage of public school children taking these exams but that's not hard evidence.) 2)The percentage of homeschoolers who "drop out" and enter the public school system after experiencing lack of success with homeschooling (anectdotal evidence from teacher friends would suggest that in the standard case of a homeschooler reentering the public education system they are far behind the other students, but this is not hard evidence.) 3)The percentage of homeschoolers taking these tests who would be classified in the public shool system. 4)The number and variety of topics typically covered in the years prior to test taking. (Does Science, History, Advanced Mathematics etc. go by the wayside in preparation for the tests?)

I really can't find any decent statistics on these matters though you'd think it shouldn't be that difficult to find 1) and 2) at least. It would be interesting to find them.

Very frustrating.

[EC]

56. How can they have an understanding of the scriptures if they can't

read them? Rather this guy means they understand what is TOLD to them...?

[elehhhhna]

90. Look, his kid is poorly educated an the scripure thing is all he's got

to brag about. I feel sorry for these goobers.

[youthere]

201. they don't need to understand..

they only have to be able to regugitate it.

[thinkingwoman]

57. there are plenty of children these ages

in public schools that are in the same boat.

seriously.

[elehhhhna]

93. It's all about the parents/\.

[thinkingwoman]

96. yes! Homeschooling

vs. public schooling is a stupid argument in this case. Those kids are not ignorant because they are homeschooled. They are ignorant because their parents have brainwashed them into believing that education is undesirable.

They could graduate from public school still not knowing how to read. Happens around here all the time.

[kath]

120. Abso-tutely, thinkingwoman! Here in OK, despite >100 years of compulsory

government schooling, around 20% of adults are functionally illiterate. So it's not as if public schooling has a shining record of universal success.

[tsuki]

153. An interesting sidebar, we were the most literate nation on earth during

the civil war era. The reason that so much material is available from that period is that the letters and journals of the young soldiers during that time were kept. Most of these young men were homeschooled.

The question in my mind, was it because of homeschooling or because we were not an anti-intellectual society as we are now? Smart=Nerd.

[kath]

157. Re: higher literacy rates in the past: John Taylor Gatto,

in "The Seven-Lesson Schoolteacher" says that
"there are some studies that suggest literacy at the time of the American Revolution, at least for non-slaves on the Eastern seaboard, was close to total. Thomas Paine's Common Sense sold 600,000 copies to a population of 3,000,000, twenty percent of whom were slaves, and fifty percent indentured servants.
Were the colonists geniuses? No, the truth is that reading, writing, and arithmetic only take about one hundred hours to transmit as long as the audience is eager and willing to learn. The trick is to wait until someone asks and then move fast while the mood is on. Millions of people teach themselves these things, it really isn't very hard."

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/tma68/7lesson.htm

[elehhhhna]

165. Only id f you count white men. The women and the slaves were not highly

literate. Now we count the whole population.

[Cleita]

59. How awful.

Denying any child the education they need to get ahead in the world as adults should be a punishable crime.

[Clyde Bruckman]

62. A fundiies...

doesn't tell me anything. You don't describe who this family is or give any descriptive information other than they are fundies. Who are they? How do you know them? How do you know none of the children can read, write, or do arithmetic?

[TWiley]

109. Fundie is short for Fundamentalists

Christian Evangelical Fundamentalists. They talk in tongues, cast out demons, prophesy, heal with faith. They believe in a literal interpretation of the bible, and their faith is all important to them.

Their father recently got a temporary job where I work. He spends most of his time on the phone dealing with personal issues concerning the members of his church which includes his home schooling association.

He quit his job because of the Y2K hysteria, and began selling generators, case lots of canned goods, and sacks of wheat or rice. He still believes that the world is coming to an end soon.

I know that his children cannot read, write or do arithmetic because he tells me so. I have known him for about 10 years.

[Solly Mack]

64. How do they get away with that?

All the home schooled children I know have to take those mandated tests along with the other kids in their same grade level.

[I_equals_PRT]

65. Liberals should home school so that they can actually teach science

language, tolerance, logic, philosophy, ethics, mathematics and literacy. Liberals must start educating their children at home so that they can teach them the Pledge of Alligience the way it was written. So that they can teach big bang theory, string theory, and Darwin's theory. The public schools are a travesty and a complete waste of tax money; they seek to socialize and force conformity of thought rather than educate. Our children are abused in schools. Police raid schools with guns and drug dogs, ignoring the civil rights of the students, and military recuiters stalk our children there. For this we pay taxes! Schools are not what they were when we attended, they are becoming more and more propaganda tools of the fascist tyranny. There are some very serious home school programs, like "Calvert" out of Canada, do a search, Calvert prepares kids to pass SAT's with about as much success as the prep schools do, and they enter college and they have a good track record, with many kids growing up to receive advanced degrees. Sometimes you might have to go out of your way and learn something yourself before you can teach it to the kids, or learn it with them. Some families live by travelling, and they frequently use Calvert. I know because I raised my kids on a private sailboat in the Caribbean. My husband has a masters in chemistry, so he took care of teaching science. I wanted to teach my kids spanish, but I couldn't speak spanish myself, so, I took them to live for 3 months in the Dominican Republic, then 2 months in Puerto Rico, then 3 weeks in Madrid, with a couple of annual followups in Mexico. We all learned spanish. When my kids took their first formal schooling in the spanish language, they were in college, and of course, they aced it. Let the repugs educate their kids in the bible, if they want to. If they can't read perhaps they will be unable to vote when they grow up. We should also abandon the public schools and educate our children ourselves as well. After a while of everybody home schooling, who will end up being the masters? Those superstitious illiterate clans or those who were enamoured of humanities and sciences? I would guess we will come out far ahead on this one, in a single generation.

[Bridget Burke]

171. We still need public schools.

I don't have children but am glad that some of my taxes go to educate the next generation. Public schools have some problems--but they were never perfect.

Not all liberal parents are able to stay home (or on the sailboat) full time & teach the children. And most are aware that they may not know everything. So they continue to fight for good public schools, & teach the kids a bit on the side.

Why are you telling people to "abandon" the public schools?

(P.S.: Guess English was not your strong point. Ever hear about Paragraphs?)

[I_equals_PRT]

189. yes, actually, english was my strong point, ever hear of informal writing?

there is no reason for you to make a personal attack. I will not go to the trouble of indenting to please you, as this is casual writing, this is not for publication nor for your editing nor is it in any way formal... this is a blog, remember? These are not essays but merely conversational answers. So, is this rudeness how the public schools taught you to communicate? If you have no substance for your argument, just throw in some personal insults to change the direction of the conversaion? Wow, no wonder I educated my kids at home. You have proved my point. And your point, exactly was what? That all liberal parents can't stay at home with the kids? Yes, I agree, they can't all. But I advise them to do so if they can find a way. Yes, it's true, parents "don't know everything". And in the public schools? You have teachers who "know everything"? Or are they like you, and they know nothing, and just think they know everything? (PS Guess manners were not your strong point. Ever hear about polite discussion?) (Another PS I forbid you to ever read anything written by e.e. cummings, as you are obviously not sophisticated enough to appreciate his style.)

[youthere]

202. I offer you a standing ovation!!!!!!

:toast: :yourock:

We are liberal (obviously)and we still educate our kids on the Bible, as well as the other gnostic and agnostic writings. We educate our kids on the religion of the ancient greeks and romans. We had our kids study the epic of gilgamesh as well as pieces of the Koran and elements of Kabbalah. Comparitive religion is one of my kids favorite topics.

[sakabatou]

66. What the...?

Aren't schools supposed to help us become independent and become good citizens?

What I don't understand are the parents. They don't care if he can't read or write just as long as he knows the scriptures and becomes a fundie like then... wait, I just answered my own question.

[kath]

84. " Aren't schools supposed to help us become independent and become good

citizens?"

Actually, they often have a tendency to turn us into mindless drones.

School + massive TV watching ------>>> mindless consumerist sheeple

Add in religion (especially of the fundie variety) and you've really hit the trifecta!

Do you think the power elite actually wants significant #s of Americans who are capable of critical thought and rational analysis?? Or do they like vast masses of mindless consumerist sheeple?

Read some of John Taylor Gatto's writings. Good stuff. Start with "The Seven-Lesson Schoolteacher": http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/tma68/7lesson.htm

[sakabatou]

88. Not in my History Class

gotta love my teacher. He is a socialist from Michigan and everyday he teaches us the dissent can start up anything, and his one of the most valued lessons in history.

[tsuki]

154. You don't know how lucky you are. Son's American Democracy teacher

taught him...and this is straight..."We are not a democracy; we are a representative democracy. Officials are not elected to "do the will of the people," they are elected to "do what is best for the people." I have been fighting that one with Son and his peers for more than five years. Finally got three of them registered to vote.

[TWiley]

116. One would hope so, but that is not the case in some groups.

Many fundamentalists bristle at the notion of "teaching children how to think" They claim that "children need to be taught what to think" and nothing more. I feel that a good citizen in this world needs to have good critical thinking skills to seperate the truth from all that propaganda.

Check out this link, you will need a high speed modem to download and watch it. It is worth the effort if you are intrested in this topic.

http://www.theocracywatch.org/av/liberty.wmv

[ebayfool]

138. "teaching children how to think" - That's the BIG plus of home schooling.

This was one of the best things that I was taught as a child in public school, critical thinking (Thanks Mrs. Clow & Mrs. Wilson!). Unfortunately, that is not the way that the public schools in my area teach anymore. A child that has learned to think & question isn't a malleable, obedient, quiet student. They are troublesome because they challenge & want to ask questions, they want to know WHY @ everything! The socialization aspect is (IMHO & experience) the main drawback, but the opportunity to watch this boy's brain expand, question & leap far beyond my teaching w/the sheer joy of knowing & questioning is breathtaking, sometimes. Critical thinking is by far the best resource that I am able to give him. Sadly, I don't think he will get that from public school.
(but he can meet girls, his biggest concern at this time - puberty rears it's head, yet again!)

[ultraist]

125. Public schools are stuck in the industrial age

They are geared to produce patriotic worker drones and fail to teach critical thinking skills. It's no coincidence that 60% of our top researchers are foreign and less than 25% of our students go on to earn Bachelor's degrees.

[phylny]

126. Man, I must be the ONLY person here who have kids in public

schools who are doing wonderfully.

In FOUR states, we've had phenomenal schools and teachers. Go figure!

[murielm99]

134. You are not the only one.

nt

[leesa]

119. My homeschooled nephew and nieces are being schooled by my

sister-in-law who never finished high school, never worked a day outside of her home (too terrified), and frankly, though sweet, is not too bright. At least one of her kids was probably bright enough for some serious science at one point. They have zero social skills and are completely dependent on her . To me it is a tragedy.

[flpeach]

121. Leesa,

That is so sad. The children will turn out like her, not able to function outside the family circle.

My daughter is home-schooled, but only after she had gone through 8th grade of public school. She is doing very well and is happier than I've ever seen her. She should graduate next year.

I do not stay at home with her as she is able to complete her studies on her own, take her tests, etc. I use "American School" who give her the books, assignments, tests. They grade her and write to me on how she is doing. She is maintaining a B average.

She is a social introvert, but has always been, has a few friends she hangs out with. She is excellent at English, Science and language but is crappy at math, which is what we work with her on the most, of course.

It has worked for us, but not sure how it would work for others. Every family has to make that decision taking into consideration their child and his/her needs.

[I_equals_PRT]

123. Hm! Maybe you'd better help them expand thier horizons a bit, Auntie

Mom is prolly doing the best she can with what she's got, but, there is no reason why you can't read the classics with them, take them to fine art and natural history museums, teach them some math.

[progressivebydesign]

128. My apologies to homeschoolers here.. but..

EVERY child I have met, that is home schooled, had terrible social skills and were basically afraid of the world, and the people in it. There are people who are trained in education, and do a great job homeschooling academically. The kids kick butt academically on public school kids. BUT! There are too too many others who are doing it because of FEAR. Fear of non-religious education, fear of imaginary crimes, fear of everything. I applaud home schooling parents who try to assimilate their kids into society thru Girl Scouts, etc., but usually you can pick them out in a crowd. Zero social skills. I think it should be much, much harder to be able to homeschool your kids... a fear of public school is not an educational foundation I'd endorse.

[ultraist]

130. What do you base that oppinion on?

I've read research that shows homeschool children have excellent social skills whereas public school children tend to be aggressive, selfish, and maladapted. I'll see if I can find this research and link it.

Institutionalizing children is not necessarily healthy.

One perspective on socializing and homeschooling:
http://www.familyeducation.com/article/0%2C1120%2C58-17910%2C00.html
Dr. Raymond Moore, author of over 60 books and articles on human development, has done extensive research on homeschooling and socialization. His book, The Hurried Child, should be in every homeschooler's library. "The idea that children need to be around many other youngsters in order to be 'socialized,'" Dr. Moore writes, is perhaps the most dangerous and extravagant myth in education and child rearing today."

Children often do not respond well to large groups. They become nervous and over excited by noise and too many people. Learning becomes difficult. Behavioral problems develop. After analyzing over 8,000 early childhood studies, Dr. Moore concluded that, contrary to popular belief, children are best socialized by parents -- not other children.

What kind of socialization occurs when 20 or 30 kids of the same age are placed in a classroom together day after day? Peer pressure is enormous. Kids feel like they need to look and sound and be like everyone else, at the risk of forgetting or never discovering who they really are. This results in rivalry, ridicule and competition - hardly the environment for healthy socialization.

A homeschooler who interacts with parents and siblings more than with peers displays self-confidence, self-respect, and self-worth. She knows she's a part of a family unit that needs, wants, and depends on her. The result is an independent thinker who isn't influenced by peers and is self-directed in her actions and thoughts

[cags]

182. But eventually that homeschooled child has to grow up and live and work

with all those public schooled kids, who already know how to deal with each other. Coming from experience and being one of those homeschooled kids, it is much easier to learn those hard lessons when you are young than when you are an adult and they can do permanent damage. Only being around people that love and support everything you do does not prepare a child for the real world. The world is full of mean, manipulative, and backstabbing people, and if your child is not able to distingish the difference between people they can trust and people that are out to do them harm, they are much more likely to be the victims of these people than to be the one who overcomes them.

[ultraist]

187. Homeschooled children do have friends

Homeschooled children do not usually live in total isolation. They have friends and family members that they socially interact with which prepares them for the real world.

In the real world, most adults do not work with a large group of people just their same age, but work with various ages. In a community or work setting, it is unnatural to find only one age group as you find in a classroom setting (unless it's a Montessori school).

Homeschooled children often interact with more adults and from what I have seen, tend to be more mature, more articulate, and less self centered.

Some of the worst behaved children I have known, were public school children.

This case of the fundies is more about ignorance and religious fantacism than homeschooling, IMO. Secular homeschools should not be lumped into this same category.

[cags]

188. That was my point

"They have friends and family members that they socially interact with which prepares them for the real world."

Of course they have friends and family members to interact with, but thats not the real world. Not everyone is your friend, not everyone is looking out for you the way friends and family are. In the real world you have to deal with these kind of people, and if you've never had to experience them, its very easy to be harmed by them. I think it is more harmful to have to learn how to deal with these kind of people as an adult than it is as a child.

[ultraist]

190. I see

Not all homeschooled children are insulated with just friends, I should have pointed this out. Many go to church, play in the neighborhood with kids (whom are not all friends) and learn to deal with all kinds, friends and foe.

What they don't usually learn is to conform to authority in an institutionalized system, as the public school is. Many public school children develop dysfunctional coping skills such as compliance or passive agressiveness.

My point is, that unnatural settings that demand compliance, such as the public school system, do not necessarily teach a child to be well equipped.

[cags]

193. You can say the same for public schooled children as well

They go to church and have neighborhood friends as well, so they are not only surrounded by kids thier own age either. I don't why kids would play with others who are not friends though.

I don't agree with your assessment of homeschooled vs public schooled social skills. I think what you have described are more personality traits than learned social skills. I have experience with homeschooling as well as public schooling and there is no way that homeschooled children are not more protected from the ills of society than public schooled kids. No homeschooling parent would purposely put thier child in those types of situations.

Most people in this country grew up in the public school system and have had to deal with all kinds of social situations that homeschooled kids are just not exposed to. So they are better able to deal with each other and work with each other without getting stepped on.

[ultraist]

195. Social skills are learned and not the same as personality traits

Social skills are learned but innate personality traits do come into play. But I see your point that homeschooled children may not be exposed to as many different social situations as public school children.

IF it comes down to more of learned social skills and personality traits, than the experiences that public schools offer, may not make one more equipped. Children do acquire dysfunctional coping skills in that environment. That is why we see so much aggression and violence in the public schools (ie gangs).

It depends a lot on what the children learn from their families. Children who are spoiled and allowed to be aggressive, will act out at school or in the home.

[cags]

196. Families are most important

but I'll agree to disagree,

Gangs are regional, they are not in the majority of public schools. I used to live in a gang ridden area and deliberately moved to an area where they are not present.

Having experience with both public and homeschooling I believe there are pro's and con's to each. There is no perfect solution.

The majority of Americans grew up in public schools, and the majority of Americans do not have dysfunctional coping skills. I just can't buy that one.

But thanks for the discussion

[ultraist]

209. I agree, both pose pros and cons

BUT, I think most Americans do have dysfunctional coping skills! LOL! From agressive personalities, hyper competitiveness to the far end of the spectrum of dysfunction (criminal behavior, domestic violence and child abuse).

We'll have to agree that we disagree, that's cool. :)

[cags]

210. Hey, I'm hyper competitive, and I was home schooled, Are you trying to say

that I'm dysfunctional. LOL People are different and they should be, or else this world would be pretty boring. LOL

[murielm99]

136. I am gonna support you on this, even though I might get flamed.

I know that some people here home school their kids for good reasons. I am sure there are many successful home schoolers and home schooled students. I applaud them. If any of my children had had serious problems in school that could not be dealt with any other way, I might have done the same.

Let me stress that my experiences have been with only home schooled students from fundie homes.

I became involved in our area's community college GED testing program. Many home schooled people come there to take the test. Many of them fail miserably. They need extensive tutoring, in basics, like addition and subtraction. Fortunately, our community college has a learning center that offers a great deal of free, one-on-one tutoring.

Many of these students take the GED courses the college offers. Some of them take the lower division classes the college offers as well. I can pick them out every time. They are always socially backward and unsure of themselves. They have no study skills.

When I have tutored these student, I always find that they are from fundie homes.

I have no experience with the types of students who are home schooled for other reasons.

I believe in public education. My three children did very well in public school. And while my experiences are strictly anecdotal, and I have no numbers, I know what I have seen. I wish that home school parents would stop being so defensive. Those of us who work in public education know that you are not all educating your children at home because you fear the Godless outside world.

[BigEdMustapha]

181. Re: I am gonna support you on this, even though I might get flamed

Quote - "I wish that home school parents would stop being so defensive"

I think the biggest reason for being defensive is fear - that they may have to submit to state-mandated tests, that they may have to send their kids back to public schools, but most of all that they may be failing in their mission to educate their kids. It's easy for public school parents to blame the teacher, or the administration, or the textbooks, etc. But when it comes to homeschooling, there is absolutely nobody to blame but yourself. So homeschool parents become defensive to any questions or attacks because they are fearful of that failure.

As a homeschooling parent myself, I understand this fear. But I feel that I would be doing my kids and myself a disservice if I did not at least engage in discussion with professional educators. I am not so fearful to think I have nothing to learn from them - and I wish more homeschool parents would feel the same way. As a matter of fact, I think both sides could learn much from conversation and maybe lead to a less antagonistic relationship between the two sides...

[youthere]

204. There's no doubt about it...

Homeschooling tends to (not always) appeal to "the fringe". I am a homeschooler (more appropriately...an "unschooler) and my experience with homeschooled children from fundamental families tends to be in the same vein as what you describe. They (fundies) also tend to be the most defensive about the choice they've made. Folks that homeschool for other reasons (namely those who are progressives or homeschool special needs kids) rarely are defensive. They simply feel this serves their child's needs better. I'm sorry that your experience with homeschoolers has been a negative one. I've met some of them too.

[carpetbagger]

206. And then there's a place called Texas...

If my homeschooled son grows up to be something other than a cocky, violent ignoramus, and my homeschooled daughter grows up not to be a Stepfordish mouse unable to answer a question intelligently, they will stick out like sore thumbs. But they will be much better people for it, even if they need to relocate somewhere cold.

Sometimes it's not a bad thing to try to protect children from a decadent culture.

[LeftyMom]

122. NCLB does not apply to homeschoolers

States regulate homeschoolers.

I'd comment further, but I don't know the family involved and there isn't much information in the original post.

[jokerman93]

141. Honestly! I have a question.

Is America becoming dirt dumb these days or have these throwbacks always been lurking among us till now just getting their fifteen minutes of fame in Bush's Amerika???

Someone please clear this up for me.

Stories like this are very creepy.

[TWiley]

159. Try this answer on

Many fundamentalists bristle at the notion of "teaching children how to think" They claim that "children need to be taught what to think" and nothing more.

I feel that a good citizen in this world needs to have good critical thinking skills to seperate the truth from all that propaganda.

Check out this link, you will need a high speed modem to download and watch it. It is worth the effort if you are intrested in this topic.

http://www.theocracywatch.org/av/liberty.wmv

[tsuki]

143. Children in Florida that are home schooled must take the same tests

that public school children must take, yearly, no excuses...unless they are "enrolled" in a private (usually a fundie school) school which means that they do not have to take the tests.

Registered home schoolers must take the FCAT.

[depakid]

156. I'm sorry, but this is child abuse

plain and simple.

These children all need to be removed from the household and the parents charged with a crime and tried.

[vetwife]

161. Homeschooling helps if you have a special needs one as well

Our daughter who has Juvenile diabetes and cheats on her B/S, has had problems within the last two years at school. She is being homeschooled and advancing. I homeschooled her last year in the last half of the school year and she did very well re integetrating back into school until we started having problems with her Blood Sugar again.

There are tons or resources via internet. In fact, one can download material that is being taught in the public school sector and test accordingly. I am not sure all parents actually TEACH but one size does not fit all in schooling, especially if you have a special needs child. We just had another diagnosis with her with ADHD as well, so it is taking time and attention to teach. I also have found out besides the required subject, I am trying to let her find something to do after her 4 hours that really interests her. She is studying some chemistry for cosemetology and also she is studying Diabetes and its effects on the body. Its hard work if parents are really teaching.

The other two are in public school and achieving. I cannot afford a tutor for her and her social skills if anything are too high ..LOL
She gets more calls than customer service with a defective computer.
She is very social.

[eauclaireliberal]

166. RE: "A fundies home schooled children cannot Read or Write."

Does the "No Child Left Behind Mandate" affect religious home-schoolers, or just the public system?

Public schools are a bane to the conservative agenda. Public schooling has been the target for the evil bastards, especially because it helps those who are at the bottom rung of the socioeconomic ladder. Repub polis have been slashing funding for inner-city schools since Nixon: which is why the system has been failing.

I really felt sorry for a guy who was being assessed at Chippewa Valley Technical College: I was in the Study Skills center taking a practice NLN, next to him and one of the center's workers. She asked him "...and you were home schooled, right?" He replied yes. This guy was about 45 years old, unshaven and uncleaned and probably has been down and out for years. He obviously was a victim of the system because the lack of a high school diploma. The work world has no use for someone like this-hell, they don't take anyone without some years of college. He was there to take the GED/HSED exams. Now he knows how the bottom rung feels. Maybe he doesn't.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

168. NY is regulated..i home-schooled for 7 years. now both have been in

public school for over 2 years and they have both been on the superintendents honor role for 10 semesters running and are in the top 1 percentile nationwide and are both John Hopkins Talented Youth Scholars.....must be the milkman's genes :7

in NY my children had to take the same annual state tests that public school children did.


the state and these parents should be brought up on child neglect/endangerment charges IMHO

[ComerPerro]

172. That's odd. You think they would at least learn how to read

So they can read the Bible.

[SiouxJ]

191. Well, neither can the president

and people think that's just fine too. Stupidity is to be admired in the Shrub-era.

[Stephanie]

192. A co-worker of mine homeschooled her kids, and she herself did not know

the structure of our Federal Government. Before the 2000 election I had to explain to her that the Supreme Court is appointed, that it's for life, etc. Parents should have to pass a basic test before they are allowed to homeschool.

[superconnected]

203. I had to explain to a mother who was homeschooling her children

what a cell and a nucleus was. She didn't get it.

[kath]

211. Well, Chimpyshit himself didn't know the functions of the 3 branches of

our govt. Can't find the quote right now, but was totally frickin' clueless.

[fortyfeetunder]

205. How about standardizing homeschooling?

If HS parents are certain their kids are going to excel at home school, having a standard should be a piece of cake. And the parent is automatically accountable for the home education for their children.

The HS teacher can teach in whatever style they can but there should be at least two standards:

The HS teacher should have an annual plan submitted to the school district what courses they plan to teach. For those courses they aren't qualified to teach, have a plan for having those courses taught.

I think the HS student should take the same state exams as the public school student. That way there's a tangible measure of whether the HS student did as well as the public school student.

Flame away, I am wearing Nomex....

[eauclaireliberal]

212. hey, kreampuff librul!

...more regulashun! Whatis thE mater with u? stoopid democrap. kepp your sewshalizm to yourslelf! Boosh rules hahahaget over it. i am so smart.

(/end sarcasm)

[superconnected]

213. yes

"I think the HS student should take the same state exams as the public school student. That way there's a tangible measure of whether the HS student did as well as the public school student."

agreed.

[TWiley]

214. It would make sense to do that.

Children do need to be protected from abuse by wacko parents.