"The Four Horsemen Of The Apocalypse" 1962

[pnutchuck]

I just saw this film here in Paris, and found it ironically parallel to the current "problems" the US faces with Iraqi "insurgents". The film is begins in Argentina and moves to Paris, France where an Argentine playboy falls in love with a married Parisian woman who is very politically minded and resistant to the Germans' war machine. Originally, the Playboy is "neutral", but as the Germans begin marching into Western Europe and eventually occupying France, he begins to take sides and eventually joins the French Resistance.

What is so ironic to me is that this film glorifies the French Resistance along with their terrorist tactics and occasional killing of "innocents" to protect their identities. However, today America calls "insurgents" terrorists. People who are, like the French, against an occupying force and foreign government controlling their lands. In the film, because the FR was working with the British to uncover German headquarters and high officials, they were deemed as allies and history remembers them as an integral part of staving off German forces until the Americans came in.

I've seen many old American films here in France that I've never seen or heard of (maybe because of my youth, or because their not widely shown or reviewed in the States)and they are all highly intelligent and very political.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0054890/

[Guns Aximbo]

1. It's called PROPAGANDA

Yes, the French Resistance would be considered Terrorists today. The Palestinians fighting for their freedom are called Terrorists. The invaders and occupiers are called freedom fighters.

Hitler's ideals are alive and well in an America led by George Bush, the Neocons and all of the Fascists in the Republican Party.

[bryant69]

2. Did the French resistance

Use car bombs t kill other French people?

Did they go after civilian targets?

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[pnutchuck]

3. They used car bombs against the German Army

and anyone, including French people, who were supporting them. They also mentioned in the movie, when Glen Ford is accepted among the FR, that should he tell anyone of his involvement, they would have to be killed. He said "We have been known to kill innocents to protect our identity."

[bryant69]

6. Oh it was in a movie

Well I guess that makes it right then.

[pnutchuck]

13. So, all movies based on historical facts are without merit?

Such as Schindler's list, Hamburger Hill, Apocalypse now, Saving Private Ryan, or other such films. The parallels that I as referring to were the glorification BY Hollywood and History itself of the French Resistance and their, what would be referred to in today's political climate, as terrorist tactics.

Not everything in a Hollywood film that is "based" in history should be taken literally. With that said, the movie is a dramatization of innocent and "neutral" people forced to take sides against a dominating regime attempting to control the world and mold it into their personal views.

[Guns Aximbo]

4. Yes. They did.

If they caught someone working with the fascisits - they killed him or her. Have you never read a history book?

[bryant69]

5. Yes I have

I have a masters degree in history actually. But I don't buy the parrellels between the Iraqi resistance and the French resistance.

But I do appreciate the condecension.

[Guns Aximbo]

8. Why don't you accept the parallels?

They are EXACTLY the same. Invader, occupier. Citizen, defender.

I guess you can't teach logic along with history.

[bryant69]

9. Oh you used all CAPS

I can't resist the force of an ARGUMENT that uses all CAPS to punctuate it's point. I GUESS you are right. THEY are EXACTLY the same.

[Guns Aximbo]

12. take your riddalin

you're getting off the debate.

[Stirk]

21. What makes the two incomparable to you?

I'm honestly curious. Apart from a few obvious cultural differences, the two groups seem practically identical to me.

[MarianJack]

7. I've Seen Photos...

...of French women who slept with nazis. Their heads were shaved and they were paraded half naked through the streets. At least the women in the pictures I saw were.

[Guns Aximbo]

10. those were the women they didn't shoot

believe me, they killed MANY citizens (their own) who collaborated with the Nazis. The same way the"terrorists" are killing their citizens who are working with the American occupiers.

IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME THING!

[Oggy]

11. Yes

Well not car bomb's, but bomb's yes. And yes they went after civillian targets too (against the Vichy Regime.) It wasn't on the same scale though.

[Guns Aximbo]

14. I'll give you that.

It's not on the same scale. But the circumstances are a little different.

[Jim__]

15. "Freedom Fighter" or "Terrorist" - whose ox is being gored

In just about any war, innocents are slaughtered. The way this killing is construed largely depends on which side you're on.

More recently, the US supported "Freedom Fighters" in Nicaragua. Reportedly, these "Freedom Fighters" fairly liberally spead terror throughout the Nicaraguan countryside. We armed and supported them. Of course, we also armed and supported both Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden, when it was convenient.

You either accept war as a legitimate way to achieve results, or you don't. The labels are pretty much interchangeable.

[Guns Aximbo]

16. It's terrorism when it's being used against you.

It fighting for freedom or resistance when you are using it against someone. It's semantics. But...

Germany invaded and occupied France. The French organized resistance (many, most of the resistance were mafia criminals).

The USA invaded and occupied Iraq. The Iraqis have organized resistance.

I fail to see where the real differences are.

[Jim__]

17. I absolutely agree.If the US were invaded, we'd call the

resistance heroic. Even if it was doing exactly the same things the Iraqi resistance is doing.

[noonwitch]

20. Ah, yes, the drug-dealing, nun-murdering contras/freedom fighters

Reagan loved those guys. He declares a "War on Drugs" that involves increasing police powers at home and increasing sentences for americans convicted of drug charges, then instructs the CIA to let the contras bring cocaine into this country to help finance the war. Not to mention selling weapons to Iran, a country that sponsored terrorism back then and held our diplomats hostage for over a year, and funnelling the profits back to the drug-dealing, nun murderers.

But, hey, they can't stop finding things to name after Ronnie. Iran/Contra makes Watergate and Monica combined look like high school pranks.

[Guns Aximbo]

23. Yeah...

I've been camping in this little spot for 35 years. I've been taking my kids there since they were in diapers - literally. I go there 2 or three times a year.

The Henepin Canal, used to be called the Illinois Mississippi Canal. The state took it over several years ago and made it a state park or something.

They changed the Name to the Ronald Reagan Memorial Bike path the day he croaked. I went there about 2 weeks later and guess what.

THEY PAVED THE F*&^ THING OVER. They PAVED OVER MY CAMPING SPOT WITH ASPHALT!

Camping isn't allowed, camp fires aren't allowed. It was the middle of nowhere and just then, when I was mother fucking Reagan, an old white haired lady - she must have been in her 70's came riding up on an old blue bike - she was actually carrying a purse and wearing a dress and espadrilles.

I went slack jawed... I was devastated and haven't been there since.

They paved paradise and put up a parking lot - literally.

[anaxarchos]

18. About the same time that this movie was made...

...(the early 1960s), the irony was that France was going through something quite similar in Algeria. Colonial wars (like Vietnam or Iraq for the U.S.) add an extra dimension of racism, etc. French society was shaken to the core by the revelation that cultured and civilized France was engaged in widespread torture and assassination in North Africa. The parallels are striking. It's worth seeing the French movies of the time as well (like "Battle of Algiers").

[Guns Aximbo]

19. and France was in Vietnam before us.

They told us THEN not to get involved with VietNam. We didn't listen to the "FROGS".

They fought their Colonial Wars and experienced a lot of terrorism in the 60's and through the 70's.

They told us not to invade Iraq. We didn't listen to the "Frogs".

It seems to me that the French have ALWAYS BEEN very good friends to the U.S., (throughout our history there are many examples). The only exception that I can think of is at the start of WWII. A minority of French running the country then, the Vichey, were anti American - they were fascists.

Anyway... I'm rambling.

[ooglymoogly]

22. i loved that film

one of glen fords best. i have been searching for the film here but so far have not found it. netflix never herd of it. am now trying to get blockbuster to look into it. any ideas????????anybody, anybody

[Cleita]

24. I remember seeing it when it first came out.

It was also about the division in that one Argentinian family between the pro-Nazis (very much in vogue in South America at that time) and those who opposed them. It was sort of like brothers fighting on opposite sides in the civil war here.

I wonder if some filmaker may want to remake it?