Why didn't Jesus talk about "democracy?"

[hector459]

I don't see democracy mentioned as the sanctioned way of life for even Christians. I would say he was more left leaning and Paul actually suggested a form of communism..."all things held in common" by the church (not the government). So it's not communism if the church holds all the power and resources and doles it out?

Help me someone.

[chicagojoe]

1. It didn't exist yet.

[BeatleBoot]

6. Yes it did. In Greece (B.C.)

http://ablemedia.com/ctcweb/showcase/greenwaldgreece10.html

<snip>

Democracy in Greece was first introduced in Athens in the 505 BCE by Cleisthenes. Previous to democracy Greek city-states were ruled by a an elite few, rich, powerful men, known as tyrants. This Oligarchy limited the power to very few people. Democracy was a government structured to serve the people. All white, male citizens had the right to vote under a democratic democracy. Unlike present democracy, citizens would convine and openly discuss and vote for elections. This type of democracy is called direct democracy. As a society it benefited the majority, which were the middle and lower classes. The middle and lower classes received a voice , giving them power. The upper class, aristrocrats, lost power through a democratic government. They no longer received more power because of thier social standing.

[chicagojoe]

10. My bad.

[BeatleBoot]

14. Not at all...

Not your bad at all.

There is a critical difference between a "democracy" and a "constitutional republic"

[hector459]

74. He used the word for "church" and it didn't exist then.

"Upon this rock i shall build my church"

And why shouldn't God of the Son of God be able to know the future?

[Taxloss]

2. It wasn't an issue in the Levant.

It was a choice between church rule, imperial rule, or monarchial rule. Rome wasn't a democracy.

Democracy was in its infancy, and going through a 1500-year bad patch.

[Warpy]

3. he was under Rome's boot and he wasn't stupid

Speaking out against Rome's rule would have gotten him killed a lot quicker than speaking out against the Pharisees did.

What Paul suggested was more feudalism than communism, the system they ended up with in the Soviet Union and what exists today in North Korea, a small group of incredibly powerful men controlling everything and the great mass of humanity being allowed to live and to prosper at their whim. Paul was a very unimaginative man, and there is a reason why emperors, kings, and rich men have always followed him and not Christ.

[bryant69]

4. This point is made over in the politics forum

I'm at a loss to see the point to it. Do you really think that Democratic Underground should start considering other forms of government (perhaps those that were popular in the time of Christ, Monarchy, Theocracy and so on (Theocratic Underground? Doesn't have the same ring))? Or is the point that Pro-Democracy Christians are hypocrites? Or is it simply to take a piss at President Bush (always a good idea) for claiming the Democracy has God's approval? But if that is your point, why not just make it, instead of this rhetorical question.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[hector459]

15. Just wondering if the RW Christian fundamentalist think we are so much

doing the work of Christ by forcing democracy around the world, why didn't Jesus sanction "democracy?" It's recorded that he said "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's" And I believe he was talking about paying taxes then.

I think the "great commission" to the believers was to "go and preach the gospel to all men." Nothing was ever mentioned about go and "convert" all men. I think you might say that Christ was a supporter of "choice." If you accepted him ok. If you didn't you missed out on the blessings but the message was and still is to be received by the "whosoever will."

[SmokingJacket]

30. And as a side point....

When RWers say "democracy" they don't mean democracy at all. Haiti was a democracy; Venezuela is a democracy. That the people choose their leaders is not what they value.

What they really mean is capitalism, particularly capitalism totally unfettered by regulation. But somehow "spreading capitalism around the world" doesn't have the same ring.

But again, just a side point.

[hector459]

54. By Jove, you've got it!!

That's what I'm talkin about!

[henrik larssonisking]

68. bingo

Jesus taught that he had come to save our souls, our bodies were of secondary importance. The render unto caesar was that we were to follow the laws of the land but that our souls were his.

[GeorgeBushytail]

19. Because American democracy is threatened by Christism

And it is worthwhile discussing the fact that Christianity has been a handmaiden of dictators (kings and popes and such) since its inception.

If Christianity had supported a democratic form of government there would be no Christiantity because the powers that be would have snuffed it. That's why "Thou shalt not kill" is ignored or labelled "not quite translated correctly" - it would make war a trifle difficult.

For a good reason to talk about Christism and Democracy read "Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust" by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen. Most churches found the suspension of democracy just peachy. Christians always point to the 2% of German clergy who actually stood up to the Nazis as if that excused the other 98%.

Religion teaches subservience and unquestioning belief, negatice traits in a democratic nation as demonstrate by the Red State -> Highly Religious correlation.

[bryant69]

25. Thou Shalt not Kill

Was not translated correctly (it should be read "Thou Shalt Not Murder." You really need to do some reading on that subject before you talk about it.

But you are coming pretty close to convincing me that trying to be a Democrat and a Christian is a pretty futile effort--is that your goal?

[GeorgeBushytail]

26. So you can't be a Christian without being a linguist, huh?

In my post I said: That's why "Thou shalt not kill" is ignored or labelled "not quite translated correctly" - it would make war a trifle difficult.

My point is that Christianity flourished and evolved under dictatorship.

[bryant69]

27. Ah

that's your point. Christianity flourished and evolved under dictatorship. So you would agree that being a Christian Democrat one must naturally be either disloyal to his faith or to his Party? Yes or no (but go ahead and explain if you like).

I read your post. Your post implies that saying "Thou Shalt Not Kill" should be translated "Thou Shalt Not Murder" is hypocricy. However, it is actually accurate.

[GeorgeBushytail]

33. I am hard on Christianity

Christianity is a huge force in American politics and culture. I have a deep personal animus toward Christianity because my nose was rubbed in it for years at taxpayer's expense in the elementary schools of Florida. The Lord's Prayer, bible verses, asides from the teacher, all forced down my throat. As a young southern atheist in the 50's and 60's Christianity made my life a lot unhappier. So I get to be harder on Christianity than most folk because it was harder on me.

About "Thou Shalt Not Kill" meaning "Thou Shalt Not Murder" - that was a cheap shot by me. I have a number of theologian friends (St Olaf College grad) and I joke with them about needing to be a linguist to be a real Christian. If the first commandment was really "Thou Shalt Not Kill" and it that rule upheld by the powers of the church then Christianity would not have survived because its expansion as a major religion was due to military conquest (hello again St. Olaf).

I know that some democratic Christian traditions have evolved over the years - my brother-in-law is a Presbyterian minister.

Of course people can be Democrats and Christians. But during this time of assault on civil liberties by the effective (not the well-intentioned) political forces of Christianity it is important to examine the reasons that it flourished under brutally totalitarian regimes. One of those reasons is that Jesus never talked about democracy.

[DARE to HOPE]

28. Well, I know the grandson of one of those 2%...

Can we say we will do better, when the knock comes on the door? I DO know of courageous German and Dutch Christians who DID stand up to the Nazis, and I know the price.

Western culture evolved as a marriage between the Christian faith and Constantine's new Roman Empire. So many of our practices were tinged by that military and empire context: praying on our knees with our hands folded in front of us, hiearchical structures of bishops which evolved from the NT bishops in the cities, to Rome's bishop being the central one.

The struggle between church and state over 2000 years of Western history brought about not only the monarchical church, but also radical movements for freedom and human rights, including those in our own country.

America inherited not only Britain's Puritans, but all the Baptists, due to history and their anabaptist theology, creating new churches on every corner, attached or not to the great sweep of Christian history. Unfortunately, due to money, television and temporal power, they are sweeping around the world now (along with Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses) not only with guns for Muslims but with abstinence advice for Africa.

BTW--my "subservience" is to God alone, which the Illuminati know is quite subversive and contrary to their agenda, in the manner of recent saints like Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Archbishop Romero.

[GeorgeBushytail]

38. I probably wouldn't be in those 2% of heroes

I wish I could say I would be, but wouldn't we all?

[tigereye]

22. I myself love rhetorical questions

I see them as more philosophical and open-ended.

[Harry S Truman]

5. Religion...

is a totalitarian structure. Nobody voted for god, jesus, mohammed, buddha or any of the bearded men in the sky. Nobody voted for any of the religious hoo-haa that's shoved in people's faces all over the world. Thereby, religion itself belongs in the past with kings and pharoahs and viceroys and potentates and other smashers of the democratic ideal.

since the jesus fairy tale was written by folks who had no clue about democracy or DNA or plate tectonics or any advanced thought beyond whipping nate the galley slave, how can they know of anything barely Philadelphian?

IMHO, that is.

[Poppyseedman]

12. Isn't wicca

a religion? Your avatar is a wicca symbol

Not that I care what you believe. It just seems pretty strange based on your post that you have a religious symbol as your avatar.

Just wondering!

[Harry S Truman]

31. no...

that's a dallas cowboys logo, silly.

[Poppyseedman]

43. O.K. I'll take your word on it, but

right click on the avatar and check out the properties.

/images/avatars/wicca.gif

[Harry S Truman]

59. your avatar...

...looks like a gun. Is that Italy?

[Poppyseedman]

64. No. It's the state of Florida in despair need of

Viagra

[deutsey]

7. Jesus helped to democratize Judaism, perhaps?

It had become under the tight control of the Pharisees and the Saducees. God was also seen as distant, wrathful, and could only be approached through ritual and strict adherence to the Law.

Jesus proclaimed that a more direct, intimate, and personal relationship with God (whom he called "Abba" or "daddy") is possible and available to everyone, especially those normally shut out of religious/political power structure.

[jdonaldball]

11. Ah, no. Judaism in his time was very pluralistic

There was no tight control, except perhaps the control by Priests over the Temple sacrifices - but even those procedures were argued about.
The Pharisees and Saducees were rival factions, neither of whom were really dominant. The Pharisees in particular were the more left wing faction, who were smeared in the Gospels.

[deutsey]

17. I said he helped to democratize it

not that he was the only one who opened it up.

To clarify, maybe I should have said that he was one among many Rabbis at the time advocating broader interpretations of the Law and rethinking one's relationship to the Divine.

The Gospels themselves were all written decades after Jesus was crucified and were all influenced to some extent by the tensions between Jesus' followers (who still remained in Judaism after his death) and those who felt they were going too far afield in their views and focus on Jesus.

[hector459]

16. More like, say uhmm.....free choice?

That's my take.

[deutsey]

18. As a Unitarian Universalist, that's my take as well.

www.uua.org

[Guns Aximbo]

8. keep religion out of our politics

thats all.

[Enraged_Ape]

9. "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar...to God what is God's"

I've always interpreted this to mean that Jesus wanted to keep politics and religious matters separate.

Good advice then, now, and always.

[RUDUing2]

49. exactly...someone correct me but I don't think there is a single

instance in the Bible where Jesus told his followers that they should work to change a law, to institute a law, or refuse to obey a law.

You can even hypothethise that he accepted the right of the state to execute criminals, since he did not condemn the crucifixion of the thief next to Him, but only gave him comfort in his dying.

or you can hypothethise that he did not accept the right of the state to execute people since he stopped the stoning of the adulterer..but wait...that wasn't state sponsored..that was religious persecution..so all you can hypothethise from that story is that he was against religious beliefs being imposed on others....

[Zeke]

13. Not His Bag...

He kept His church separate from state.

"My kingdon is not fo this world..."

Give to Caesar what belong to him, give to God what belongs to God..."

"I came so mankind may live more abundantly (post death in the presence of God)..."

He preached a way out, and off, this earth He knew was falling apart.

That's what He was all about, not democracy.

[hector459]

20. I kind of agree. If we are going to bomb our way around the world in the

name of "democracy" which the RW Christain fundamentalists have allowed to be equated with "Christianity" (which the powers behind it all really equate to "capitalism.") we better damn straight know what the hell we are talking about when it's our childrens' lives at stake and maybe the future of our nation. People had better wake up an know what they are talking about and what they are NOT talking about. This WMD bullshit is not good enough for me or for my insane cousing who just returned from Iraq and is unknown even to his mother.

[DARE to HOPE]

23. Also, "love (even) your enemies..."

The great statement from both OT and Christ:

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul, and your neighbor as yourself."

Pretty radical stuff from the get go, giving rise to English common law and all that followed.

BTW--the "abundant life" starts here, not just "pie in the sky." And NOT material, necessarily, no matter what the Dominionists (heretics) say.

[GeorgeBushytail]

24. Too bad Jesus is an embarrassment to most Right-wing Christists

The much prefer the Old Testament to Mr. Christ's "socialist" ravings.

[Cleita]

21. Democracy was a Greek concept. In New Testament times,

Greco-Roman beliefs and customs were considered corrupt and immoral by the Jews.

[Cuban_Liberal]

29. Because his kingdom was not of this earth, that's why. n/t

[DistressedAmerican]

32. Here's a little something for your thread...

We clearly DO think alike!

Mine is here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1526677
DA

[K-W]

34. He didnt talk about alot of things. Perhaps you should explain your point

Why should he have talked about democracy? I dont see what in his life or times would make you think he would have any interest in philsophizing on forms of government.

[DistressedAmerican]

35. The point is that Bush constantly talks of God's plan

and how it includes spreading democracy around to "the darkest corners of the world". He hijacks religion to justify violence exactly the same way that Bin Laden does.

The administration pays lip service to the notion that this is not a "crusade" or a "war on Islam". Then they turn right around and use Christian theology to justify occupation of a Muslim country in the heart of the middle east.

On top of that, Where is the separation of church and state standing these days? God has given Bush a "mandate" you know?

[K-W]

39. Yah Bush's people invented that.

Jesus is good.
Democracy is good.

Jesus wants democracy.

I think thats basically thier argument.

Jesus focused on individual change, you might infer that he thought that if everyone was living non-materialistic lives to serve god and each other it wouldnt much matter what the political system was.

[geniph]

36. Christianity was extremely apolitical

It didn't actually become politicized until the Nicene Conference.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/ROME/LATE.HTM

"foundational Christianity was manifestly anti-political. Its founder, Jesus of Nazareth, consistently condemned worldly authority and insisted that the Christian life is a non-worldly, individualistic, non-political life. As a result, the foundational Christian texts are not only anti-Roman (for Judaea was part of the Roman Empire during the life of Jesus of Nazareth), but consistently dismissive of human, worldly authority. If Christianity were going to work as a religion in a state ruled by a monarch that demanded worship and absolute authority, it would have to be changed. To this end, Constantine convened a group of Christian bishops at Nicea in 325; there, the basic orthodoxy of Christianity was instantiated in what came to be called the Nicene creed, the basic statement of belief for orthodox Christianity."

[bobthedrummer]

37. The early churches were communal, ergo-communist.

It worked. Christ didn't preach Calvinism, that's a fact.

[JVS]

40. Because he didn't care

[noonwitch]

41. Because his message was not political, but spiritual

Jesus' message was a spiritual one, about how to live a moral life.

It's mankind's responsibility to come up with the way in which we live as a society. Our individual spirituality comes into it, because it reflects how we view our fellow human beings.

[enki23]

42. because his writers were more interested in starting a doomsday cult

than they were in changing society. they made that explicit in the character's own words.

[ArkDem]

44. He spoke in Matthew and Luke of the wonders of

anarco-syndicalism.

[orpupilofnature57]

45. DO ON TO OTHERS?Shrub could never accept the world he or his ilk

create here on earth.

[Disturbed]

47. Democracy and God

Democracy and God

GW Bush keeps saying the Freedom and Democracy is a gift from the Almighty. It is America's duty to spread Democracy.

"Freedom is not this country's gift to the world. Freedom is the Almighty's gift to every man and woman in this world. And, as the greatest power on the face of the earth, we have an obligation" to carry out the Lord's mission." GW Bush


'I feel like God wants me to run for President. I can't explain it, but I sense my country is going to need me. Something is going to happen... I know it won't be easy on me or my family, but God wants me to do it.' GW Bush

*GW Bush made this god up because there is no such god in the bible. The one in the bible is a jealous, vengeful god that demands complete obedience and loyalty. This god does not grant freedom to human beings but demands servatude.The god in the bible is a war god and that part of god seems to suit GW Bush just fine.

" God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam < Hussein>, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."

Empires Prefer a Baby and the Cross to the Adult Jesus
By Giles Fraser

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/122604I.shtml

[DistressedAmerican]

50. Good quotes!

I added them to a similar thread I have on GD Politics:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1526677

Thanks for the fodder!
DA

[Bush on crack]

60. I know what he is saying

Bush is making an appeal to Thomas Aquinas and Natural Rights or more in depth Natural Law. I guess the Founding Fathers thought at one time that rights came from the creator not the crown. I don't know something alien like that. I know it's stupid!

[leftofthedial]

46. gawd hates our freedoms

he WAS a middle eastern non-christian

[American Tragedy]

48. Here's the way I see it.

Many people in Palestine misconstrued his role as a teacher, and wanted him to become a political agitator, a king who would supplant the Roman leadership. That was not the purpose as Christ saw it. His message was universal; it was to outlive humanity and their social constructs.

Governments and empires are transient, there will be wars and rumors of wars for centuries to come, and we only have money and property for the short time that we are on this Earth. We only truly have our soul, and that is eternal. That was his concern. I don't believe that he was prescribing any system to be enforced by law, but a way of life to be followed of one's free will out of faith.

[shrike]

51. if he said the word 'democracy' no one would have known

what he was talking about.

[hector459]

52. Ok, how about "election?" He did mention "king" though.

Never mentioned overthrowing the "king"
Never mentioned voting, elections, etc.
Did mention "usary" robbing widows and orphans, .
I'm just trying to see how the right wing fundmentalists are snookering their base.

[ngant17]

53. liberation theology

I think you might be referring to the modern concept of "liberation theology" as developed in the early 1970's by various North American and Latin Americans: Frei Betto, Catalina Romero, Phillip Berryman, Daniel Levine, Gustavo Gutierrez, Segundo Galilea, Juan Luis Segundo, Lucio Gera, and Leonardo and Clodovis Boff, Jose Miguez-Bonino, Rubem Alves, et. al. I'm sure I missed some, not intentionally of course.

Jean-Bertrand Aristide (president of Haiti before being deposed in a US-supported coup) was influenced by liberation theology, that is to say, Christians must work for social and economic justice for all people. For Aristide, liberation theology meant criticizing the repressive dictatorship of Jean Claude Duvalier and protecting the rights of the poor in Haiti.

In the gospel according to Luke, we see the very first homily attributed to Christ:

"He came to Nazareth, where he had grown up, and went according to his custom into the synagogue on the sabbath day. He stood up to read and was handed a scroll of the prophet Isaiah. He unrolled the scroll and found the passage where it was written: "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring glad tidings to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, and to proclaim a year acceptable to the Lord." Rolling up the scroll, he handed it back to the attendant and sat down, and the eyes of all in the synagogue looked intently at him. He said to them, "Today this scripture passage is fulfilled in your hearing."

Especially see also Luke 1:51-53

Note the idea of a powerful, revolutionary Christ was painted by Warner Sallman in 1941. His famous painting of the head of Christ is found almost everywhere, it was a contemporary version of Christ, one who would hereafter be known as a powerful, strong and mighty man, not the frail, teary-eyed and wimpy version of Christ which the Catholic Church had for centuries demanded of its artists.

It's all about interpretation!

[Redleg]

55. Because God left it to Prophet Bush to bring Democracy to the chosen

people.

[Bush on crack]

58. you say that

You say that sarcastically but I know this guy on the radio down here that said that just about word for word, maybe one different preposition. Also I know a kid at the school I volunteer at who said his step-dad told him Bush was the most moral man since Jesus.

[Redleg]

72. That's some scary shit.

EOM

[Freddie Stubbs]

56. How do you know that He didn't talk about democracy?

:shrug:

[DistressedAmerican]

62. Do you know differently?

If you do let's hear about it. If not, what's your beef? Want a citation? How about the bible.

There are several online. Feel free to find one and do a search for it. If it yields something, let me know.

Challenges of this nature offer very little.

[Freddie Stubbs]

65. It is doubtful that every word that he uttered was written down,

considering that he ministered for three years.

[DistressedAmerican]

69. So, I guess Bush got a copy of one of his

unpublished sermons. Is that where he gets his religious justificatioon for killing tens of thousands in the name of doing His work? Because despite claims to the contrary it sure as hell isn't in the Bible.

[Freddie Stubbs]

70. When did he say that Jesus supported democracy?

:shrug:

[Sterling]

57. The closest thing to it was Rome and they were not a good example

at least I bet Jesus did not think so anyway. Kinda like how W's democracy must look to Iraqi's. The Jews were not fans of Rome's democracy.

[bklyncowgirl]

61. Democracy was a foreign concept. to first century Jews

First century Jews were not overly fond of the Greeks and needless to say they hated the Romans who, despite the fact that they were ruled by an emperor at the time, had retained some forms of their Republican past. Some of their election campeigns were pretty lively. Apparently there was a local election coming right before Vesuvius blew its top and there were lots of advertising posters up in Pompeii. My favorite was one put up by some first century Karl Rove saying "The thieves and prostitues of Pompeii urge you to vote for (candidates name which I have unfortunately forgotten)" Negative campeigning has a long history.

I personally don't remember reading anything in the bible about people voting on much of anything. Democracy was pretty much a foreign concept and Jesus was not a political guy--he even cured the servant of a Roman Centurion much to the horror of local patriots.

[DistressedAmerican]

63. That being said,

How do they still use it to justify their war crimes? Who is not getting the picture?

[sweetheart]

66. Because all people are NOT equal in the pathway of learning

What if a school were a democracy, then the largest population, the
ignorant, would celibrate ignorance, and eschew education. Similarly
with enlightenment, those enlightened are more than aware that those
who are not, are not... and teach that they might end their suffering.

If people are not wanting their suffering ended, then they are free to
leave. In this regard, Jesus did not proclaim to be the teacher of
all humankind, just those to whom he spoke... and the rhetoric of
making all people his devotees, was added by the church in a book
written without his permission centuries after he died.

With the realization of enlightenment, it is blindingly obvious that
the material world will not last beyond death, and that any effort
put in to it, is essentially squandered (spiritually speaking). Given
that jesus was not a secular teacher, of course he did not bother
explaining how to achieve secular government, but surely the endemic
message was to elevate and celibrate enlightenment... something that
democracy has a difficult time with.

When you sincerely ask for guidance from your jesus, sincerely, deeply,
and most intimately, it is WAY more personal and inner than the outer
revelation of "democracy" and a constitutional republic. To take
ones inner inspiration in to politics is admirable. To expect it to
be a factor in outer politics is misunderstanding its place. If
anything, it guides your heart, and your vote. In that sense, jesus
does indeed "talk" about democracy.

Enlightenment is elitist. Rather, ego is elitist and enlightenment
is the death of ego. Yet in a constitutoinal republic designed to
support the human worldly ego, the death of the ego is calling for
the death of the known world, and is seen as elitist.. as many of
the secular democratic atheists on this board will inform you.
Why would an enlightened person do anything but give caesar his ground
and stick to his own kingdom of the sacred totality?

[H2O Man]

67. democracy vs communism

Democracy is a political system; communism is an economic theory that has the potential to occure in industrial society. Jesus was a member of a tribal group, that practiced communalism. It was under the heel of an empire, that exploited all tribal peoples in a significant section of the world at that time. Jesus didn't speak of democracy because it was not an issue; he didn't address communism for exactly the same reason he did not wear Grateful Dead t-shirts.

[One_Life_To_Give]

71. Wouldn't it have been a crime against Rome?

Somehow I can't picture being allowed to do this in Roman occupied areas. Maybe a Roman citized could of said this back in Rome. But for a non-Roman to say this would be like preaching for open revolt against the Roman empire.

[DistressedAmerican]

73. Was Jesus Afraid to Piss Off Rome?

I think not!

[One_Life_To_Give]

75. Render unto Ceasar

I think his position on paying Roman taxes belies that.

[DistressedAmerican]

76. Good point!

Although, that King of the Jews thing really pissed them off. Direct challenge to their authority that it was.

[johnaries]

77. Because Jesus believed in Separation of Church/State....

"Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's, and unto God that which is God's"

How much plainer could he make it? :shrug:

[RUDUing2]

78. also in action as well as in words...

he stopped the execution of a woman by religious authorities (let he who is without sin cast the first stone)...but did not say a word against the right of the state to execute the thieves or himself.

Which to me says He beleived that religious laws and state laws were two separate things.

[Stop_the_War]

79. Democracy wasn't around at the time.

Greece = Half-Democracy (only men were allowed to vote)
Rome = ruled by tyrannical Emperors
Egypt = ruled by Rome
Palestine/Israel = ruled by Rome

Also Jesus never existed anyways....