Discuss "freedom" and "liberty"

[Deja Q]

"Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)"
Freedom Free"dom (fr=e"du^m), n. AS. fre'od=om;
fre'ofree + -dom. See Free, and -dom.
1. The state of being free; exemption from the power and
control of another; liberty; independence.

Made captive, yet deserving freedom more. --Milton.

2. Privileges; franchises; immunities.

Your charter and your caty's freedom. --Shak.

3. Exemption from necessity, in choise and action; as, the
freedom of the will.

4. Ease; facility; as, he speaks or acts with freedom.

5. Frankness; openness; unreservedness.

I emboldened spake and freedom used. --Milton.

6. Improper familiarity; violation of the rules of decorum;
license.

7. Generosity; liberality. Obs. --Chaucer.

Freedom fine, a sum paid on entry to incorporations of
trades.

Freedom of the city, the possession of the rights and
privileges of a freeman of the city; formerly often, and
now occasionally, conferred on one not a resident, as a
mark of honorary distinction for public services.

Liberty Lib"er*ty (li^b"~er*ty^), n.; pl. Liberties
(-ti^z). OE. liberte, F. libert'e, fr. L. libertas, fr.
liber free. See Liberal.
1. The state of a free person; exemption from subjection to
the will of another claiming ownership of the person or
services; freedom; -- opposed to slavery, serfdom,
bondage, or subjection.

But ye . . . caused every man his servant, and every
man his handmaid whom he had set at liberty at their
pleasure, to return, and brought them into
subjection. --Jer. xxxiv.
16.

Delivered fro the bondage of corruption into the
glorious liberty of the sons of God. --Bible, 1551.
Rom. viii. 21.

2. Freedom from imprisonment, bonds, or other restraint upon
locomotion.

Being pent from liberty, as I am now. --Shak.

3. A privilege conferred by a superior power; permission
granted; leave; as, liberty given to a child to play, or
to a witness to leave a court, and the like.

4. Privilege; exemption; franchise; immunity enjoyed by
prescription or by grant; as, the liberties of the
commercial cities of Europe.

His majesty gave not an entire county to any; much
less did he grant . . . any extraordinary liberties.
--Sir J.
Davies.

5. The place within which certain immunities are enjoyed, or
jurisdiction is exercised. Eng.

Brought forth into some public or open place within
the liberty of the city, and there . . . burned.
--Fuller.

6. A certain amount of freedom; permission to go freely
within certain limits; also, the place or limits within
which such freedom is exercised; as, the liberties of a
prison.

7. A privilege or license in violation of the laws of
etiquette or propriety; as, to permit, or take, a liberty.

He was repeatedly provoked into striking those who
had taken liberties with him. --Macaulay.

8. The power of choice; freedom from necessity; freedom from
compulsion or constraint in willing.

The idea of liberty is the idea of a power in any
agent to do or forbear any particular action,
according to the determination or thought of the
mind, whereby either of them is preferred to the
other. --Locke.

This liberty of judgment did not of necessity lead
to lawlessness. --J. A.
Symonds.

9. (Manege) A curve or arch in a bit to afford room for the
tongue of the horse.

10. (Naut.) Leave of absence; permission to go on shore.

[Oversea Visitor]

1. Freedom Liberty?????

I dont see this in Iraq

www.zonaeuropa.com/01467.htm

After looking at this tell me how US going to bring Freedom and Liberty with an army.

[Deja Q]

2. Or America or how either word truly describes *'s intentions.

Which ought to be scary...

[Oversea Visitor]

3. Sad

But the media sold their soul. In the long run the damage to the US position will be great. American need access to news and to understand what this is all about.

[Deja Q]

12. This link won't cheer you up then...

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7827.htm

You had only to listen to George W. Bush's Inaugural Address last week (invoking "freedom" and "liberty" 49 times) to appreciate just how deeply Americans still believe in this founding myth. For many in the world, the president's rhetoric confirmed their worst fears of an imperial America relentlessly pursuing its narrow national interests. But the greater danger may be a delusional America—one that believes, despite all evidence to the contrary, that the American Dream lives on, that America remains a model for the world, one whose mission is to spread the word.

The gulf between how Americans view themselves and how the world views them was summed up in a poll last week by the BBC. Fully 71 percent of Americans see the United States as a source of good in the world. More than half view Bush's election as positive for global security. Other studies report that 70 percent have faith in their domestic institutions and nearly 80 percent believe "American ideas and customs" should spread globally.

Foreigners take an entirely different view: 58 percent in the BBC poll see Bush's re-election as a threat to world peace. Among America's traditional allies, the figure is strikingly higher: 77 percent in Germany, 64 percent in Britain and 82 percent in Turkey. Among the 1.3 billion members of the Islamic world, public support for the United States is measured in single digits. Only Poland, the Philippines and India viewed Bush's second Inaugural positively.

snip

When the soviets withdrew from Central Europe, U.S. constitutional experts rushed in. They got a polite hearing, and were sent home. Jiri Pehe, adviser to former president Vaclav Havel, recalls the Czechs' firm decision to adopt a European-style parliamentary system with strict limits on campaigning. "For Europeans, money talks too much in American democracy. It's very prone to certain kinds of corruption, or at least influence from powerful lobbies," he says. "Europeans would not want to follow that route." They also sought to limit the dominance of television, unlike in American campaigns where, Pehe says, "TV debates and photogenic looks govern election victories."

So it is elsewhere. After American planes and bombs freed the country, Kosovo opted for a European constitution. Drafting a post-apartheid constitution, South Africa rejected American-style federalism in favor of a German model, which leaders deemed appropriate for the social-welfare state they hoped to construct. Now fledgling African democracies look to South Africa as their inspiration, says John Stremlau, a former U.S. State Department official who currently heads the international relations department at the University of Witwatersrand in Johannesburg: "We can't rely on the Americans." The new democracies are looking for a constitution written in modern times and reflecting their progressive concerns about racial and social equality, he explains. "To borrow Lincoln's phrase, South Africa is now Africa's 'last great hope'."

The link is rather longer... but, if true, the US is in deep trouble and * is oblivious to it. And while I knew enough before, that article pointed out some things that have me utterly concerned for the future of OUR country. Yours, mine, the repukes, the freepers, the good republicans, the bad dems, ALL OF US. :cry:

:-(

[Oversea Visitor]

15. I heard his whole speech

I follow it on Cspan.I know what is happening in US. The media has sold its soul.

[Democrat Dragon]

4. Freedom is such a nebulous word...

that it is often used in speeches conatining tons of rhetoric.

Case in point: *'s second inagural speech.

[sweetheart]

5. liberty is ones franchise to be included

It seems that both words are deeply maligned by the GOP-nazis. Freedom,
without a franchise is worth very little, and that is why the GOP drops
the "L" word from its rhetoric. What is freedom to smoke when you have
no right to work or be employed. What is freedom to travel when you
are demanded to be at work all the time. What is freedom to quit
working when you'll not be able to find another job, and be made
homeless. What is freedom to salute the flag, when you are systematically
disenfranchised by the corrupt government it represents.

Liberty is that the government represent you even though you be in a
minority. It is to have laws that allow for all peoples to be included
within the law and the system, such as one's franchise to vote, to
be able to have whatever sexual relations and not be persecuted for it
by government.. or have rights removed for sexual matters. It is the
right to have your freedom of religion, not just in terms of what
one you ascribe to, but that the socio-economic system support it by
not forcing you to ascribe to the "majority" or the tyrrany of the
majority.

The book "On Liberty" by John Stewart Mill.. here's the online book:
http://www.constitution.org/jsm/liberty.txt

[poe]

6. there is no freedom without land

if you don't have access to land for food, to build a dwelling etc. all else is just pretty words. everyone in latin america knows this not needing 50 page dissertations and other such doctrine to turn this issue into a pointless abstraction. if you rent you are enslaved. if you mortgage you are enslaved. resist.

[sweetheart]

7. aah, but what is land but economic franchise

The right to economic franchise is indeed critical to freedom, that
right the US denies is relevant in the UN universal declaration.

If you make a good living, renting an apartment works just fine. I
only need to "own" my accomodation/land when the rents become unfair
and absurd, taking so much of my income that i lose my franchise.
The "land" (chavez thead) argument is of an agrarian culture. In a
post modern, post industrial state, to send the population back to the
land is not sensible, pragmatic or realistic.

That said, then there is a virtual "land" franchise that our economic
system should provide, as your principal is very correct... everyone
has the right to have a home/housing, medical care and a right to work.
This is land reform in a post-industrial era.
(on edit)
By right to work, i don't mean the GOP slogan of union busting, rather
the right to earn a living wage from one's endeavours.

[poe]

9. the definition of the word economics comes from...

the Greek oikonomikas meaning household stewardship then extended out across the land. economics as you are speaking of is a financial arrangement which is an abstraction. we are so utterly devoid of any notion of how people live in most of the world we get caught using such abstract jargon as 'post modern' and 'post industrial'- the notion of post industrial is nonsense the technology society is a mirage. in all meaningful ways our society is definitely industrial. routinization, mass production, homogenization, commodification etc. most people don't make a good living, whatever that means, and even more aren't able to explore a right livelihood. most people in the world work with their hands. how many energy slaves does the average american have? 300. there is nothing realistic about the anti-life industrial-techno culture we are living in. it is all about denial of the very things which give us our strength and sustenance-the land. you can't eat data.

[sweetheart]

11. So what do you propose to the 18 millions in NYC

That they all just get out to kansas for a chavez land reformation?

I don't disagree, but we do indeed have an urban population, many of
whom rent for a lifetime and still have a quality of life that, however
artificial and built on the backs of petrol slaves, is substantial
for those living it. If the technology society is a mirage, then you
must not be using a computer, or a telecommunications switch. You
probably don't have hot water, heating or electric lights. Surely you
must walk everywhere, as even a bicycle is made of alloys and metals
that are mined by the economically "exploited", and refined by polluting
behemoth factories buring coal and fossil fuels.

In economic history, we once were all peasants, and indeed with the
industrial revolution, we came to cities to enjoy electric lights,
street lighting, sewers, water on tap, and the urban delights.. and now
100+ years later, what are you calling for, a return to
mao's great leap forward? Do we close all the stock markets and just
call the last 100 years a mistake? Of course not... it is not possible
to re-edit the history. We have 6 billions on the earth now, nothing
like from before and going back to the land is absurd.

We must come together and use technology wisely, making sure that
modern economics forces consumers to pay the price in "public goods"
costs of technology. This be that we pay the FULL cost of the petrol
and the FULL cost of burning energy, recognizing the military
subsidy as what it is, an economic energy subsidy. I doubt you will
find many people in new york city ready to go to the farm... they'd
rather pay rent, or buy a flat... and continue in their specialized
worlds that do indeed have a great deal of substance, however far
abstracted from the land it might be.

[poe]

13. most people never "came" to cities but were forced off land....

into the industrial centers to serve as fodder for the industrial machine. still going on.
going back to the land will occur hopefully ceremoniously and gradually. those urban delights are pollution, overcrowding etc. the goal by most was to escape those delights hence suburbia. well we know where that energy sink is heading. the notion of the peasantry is a myth in the sense that many cultures lived well on the land and worked far fewer hours than those in today's "convenience" society. for many it was a slog but they were not the possessors of the land. have you ever farmed? it's great work. sure it is physical but look at our obese society. many might find it satisfying though i suspect your right that most would find it distasteful and run back to the cubicle. be careful of the techno-fix. personally i try to limit my technology and be aware of energy use. trying. there are many urban garden projects in nyc. www.foodfirst.org

the word 'automobile' means to move under the power of ones feet.
and yes get rid of the stock market it has a perfectly inverse relationship to a healthy economy. don't underestimate the level of change we all need to make.

Arrogance of Humanism by David Ehrenfeld
Small is Beautiful by E.F. Schumacher

[sweetheart]

16. Greensiding

I recently encountered this term, as a vision. As i understand it,
it suggests shifting not "down" to being electricity-less farmers, but
rather a different form of the suburban life, where we rather support
wilderness around us, rather than patched lawns and hedges. It is not
getting rid of our computers, hair dryers, and washing machines, rather
adjusting our eco footprints that our lives are indeed sustainable in
the microcosm.

I attempt to do myself, in the sense that i've shifted out from NYC to
a small farm. I've planted only trees, having had little luck with
vegetables (rabbits eat them). The peace of mind, and the silence of
being connected to the earth is quite sublime. This, has no economic
value however, or rather, i see it as a luxury.. funny that. I don't
accept that to live in a rural area, that i automatically forego the
advantages of city life, and with the internet, the differences are
not sooo large, except the travel latency of getting to and from
less convenient locations.

There is a joy of leaving the dogs to roam free, without collars and
without the threat of traffic and human predators... but hardly is
keeping animals any sort of sustainable future, as if all 6 billion
is to keep animals, our eco footprint will quickly exxceed this
planet's resources even faster..

I think the core problem is that economics does not price the value
of what are percieved as infinite public goods, clean air, untouched
land, ocean, fish, pure water and silence. Silence and a pitch black
night used to be free, and now they are the exception in the
industrialized west. Why are they not paid for, well without a
global consensus on pricing these quickly diminishing resources,
they will be totally "fished out" leaving nothing for future generations... that we'll have to create special museum exhibits to
show children what "darkness" is, what a starry night looks like, and
what the absence of human noise sounds like. Frankly, i don't see it
happening at all, and rather there is a consensus to run like lemmings
off a cliff... and only after a really hard landing, can there be
any return to sanity. Perhaps that will come to a head when the
petroleum grabs/wars of the world bleed in to world war 4, and after
the nukes have wasted the cities, we can start over with the blessing
of wisdom.

[duhneece]

8. Freedom vs Democracy

I can't find who said this, but I like it:
Freedom means we, the citizens can speak out; democracy means the government listens to us.

[accipiter]

10. All I know is that you can't enjoy freedom fries without

some good ol liberty ketchup.

[Deja Q]

14. And a diet like that will give you a brain like reagan's.

No brain worth having... unless one has no brain and even then they'd be better off without it.