A Word to the "Jesus" Crowd

[AnnInLa]

Interesting report on Oliver Willis...reputable pollsters find hypocricy in Evangelical Right's message and lifestyle: See the complete report by Oliver Willis on www.OliverWillis.com

The findings in numerous national polls conducted by highly respected pollsters like The Gallup Organization and The Barna Group are simply shocking. "Gallup and Barna," laments evangelical theologian Michael Horton, "hand us survey after survey demonstrating that evangelical Christians are as likely to embrace lifestyles every bit as hedonistic, materialistic, self-centered, and sexually immoral as the world in general."Divorce is more common among "born-again" Christians than in the general American population. Only 6 percent of evangelicals tithe. White evangelicals are the most likely people to object to neighbors of another race. Josh McDowell has pointed out that the sexual promiscuity of evangelical youth is only a little less outrageous than that of their nonevangelical peers.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[henrik larssonisking]

2. i guess this is gonna be another bash christians thread

[mopaul]

4. this is a HYPOCRICY BASHING thread

maybe that's why you're offended.

[henrik larssonisking]

7. aahh

so your labeling me a hypocrite without knowing anything about me or what faith i follow. Seems to me that the only things i ever see here about christianity posted on these boards is negative, do you really believe that every christian is a hypocrite and stories like this represent every christian in the US.

[mopaul]

9. I didn't say EVERY Christian is a hypocrite

And I didn't say you were one either. But you sure are thin skinned, and you seemed to take personal offense, where none was intended.

[henrik larssonisking]

10. no problem

sometimes i can be thin skinned, but my main concern is that when the left starts to attack religion then its gonna cause problems, i find its hard to win hearts and minds when you are attacking the core beliefs of a large group of americans.

peace out dude

[vi5]

14. But one thing I would like to see Christians aknowledge....

..is that Christians are essentially in power in this country. If the majority of people consider themselves christian, and if the majority of politicians making decisions that affect all of our lives are being made by christians, where does the responsibility of christians begin and end in this discourse?

If christians have that much power in this country, and so much is going wrong, at what point are we allowed to point out that something is broken? At what point are we allowed to criticize? At what point are we allowed to cry foul at the fact that the same group of people who want to tell others how to live, don't practice what they preach?

And if, as is pointed out on here many times over, not ALL christians are like this, then that is fine and I would agree with that statement. But then it is their responsibility to stand up and make sure their brethren and the people who claim the same philosophy and religion as them, don't tarnish their name and the good name of their belief system. You can't just expect people to only notice the good in something if you aren't willing to stand up for that good yourself, and willing to take on the negative elements.

And maybe you do that. I don't know so I can't say. But it seems to me that with everything that is being done in this country by a vocal minority of christians with a large chunk of power in their hands over all of our lives, should be of a more pressing concern to you an other good christians, than what a bunch of people with absolutely no power on a messageboard say, don't you think? I would think that good, true liberal christians would be spending so much time focusing on getting these people on the right to stop sullying the reputation of their belief system that they wouldn't have time to worry about a bunch of people with no power carping on a message board.

[AnnInLa]

17. "And therein lies the rub".....Brilliantly expressed!....n/t

[phylny]

29. Interesting.

Substitute the words "Black" or "Asian" or "Hispanic" and see what this sounds like.

[yardwork]

39. I think the poster's point is that Christians are a majority in the U.S.

Because Christians are a majority in the United States, it is logical to ask them to take some responsibility for what is happening in the U.S.

It's not reasonable to ask Blacks, Asians, or Latino/Hispanics to take responsibility for the country, precisely because they are not the majority.

At least, I think that was the poster's point. And it's a good point, imo.

[vi5]

49. Huh? Do they have all the power in the country?

1)Those groups do not hold a majority in either the population of the country, or in the so called "corridors of power", namely politics.

2)When we choose (yes, like it or not religion is still a choice) to affilliate ourselves with particular groups, religious or otherwise, who engage in or advocate very specific practices in the name of that group to which we make an active choice to belong, then yes we are responsible for either disavowing the actions of our fellow chosen members, or leaving said group. Blacks, Asians, or Latinos have no choice in the matter and there is no overarching philosphy in being any one of those things.

Nice try though.

[phylny]

51. They don't yet

but they will soon :)

[Catfight]

47. Bravo! Well said indeed. n/t

[oneighty]

16. Left attacks religion?

One might say the same about the right attacking the Raghead Religion and indeed sallying forth to kill the useless Muslims.

Pot black pan is too.

180

[alphadog]

26. Exactly...

Henrik is of course right...

Go ahead, keep bashing Christians. Keep it up and keep making it look like a good part of our party is anti-Christian.

Especially keep it up if you want us to lose national elections over and over and over again.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

31. is calling out hypocrits, who happen to be christian, christian bashing?

just curious?

[fishwax]

57. I'm a Christian and I think it's important to point out such hypocrisy

it doesn't slight all christians, no matter how badly the right wants to believe it does. The person quoted in the snippet above, Josh McDowell, is fairly influential in CONSERVATIVE christian circles, and he is acknowledging the difference between what evangelicals practice and what evangelicals preach.

Since Evangelicals want to ensure, often by the force of law, that EVERYBODY practices what THEY preach, it is obviously valid to point out when they don't practice what they preach. And if that strikes you as anti-christian, I think that is quite shortsighted.

[Modem Butterfly]

30. I don't understand...

...how pointing out trends and poll results of a particular group is "bashing". Can you enlighten me?

:shrug:

[Lerkfish]

28. I have no problem with pointing out the hypocrisy...

its a very valid point and SHOULD be pointed out against RW christians. Especially those that spend a great deal of time concerned with the "moral values" of others. Once you do that, you set yourself up to be scrutinized at the same level, and rightly so.


I have a problem with the term "evangelical" though, its being misused here. There is actually an Evangelical Church which is moderate to liberal, and the UCC, to which I belong, was joined with the Evangelical church and we are one of the more liberal denominations around. Not just this article, but many others are misusing the "evangelical" label to refer to fundamentalist Right Wing churches, why I'm not sure.

I think the article and this thread is doing the RIGHT thing by identifying the portion of christianity they refer to. Whenever I speak up in other threads, its mainly because that indentifying information is missing.

[immoderate]

33. If there wasn't hypocrisy, what would ministers preach about?

Hypocrisy, sin, heresy = bread and butter.

--IMM

[Lerkfish]

34. oh, things like kindness, mercy, charity and forgiveness...

you, know, those "jesus" things.

[immoderate]

37. Right. All those are ways to be hypocritical.

Preachers might say that Christians profess "kindness, mercy, charity and forgiveness" and some do not follow through with those things.

--IMM

[Lerkfish]

41. or, ministers preache those things and people act on them...

...because they're good christians and believe in what Jesus had to say.

That also happens.

[DoYouEverWonder]

5. Actually it is a bash Fundamentalist Hypocrits thread

who call themselves Christians.

Sorry, the is what they call themselves. I think we are all well read enough around here, to know the difference


Peace be with you
DYEW

[BOSSHOG]

11. And well deserved I might add

I'm surrounded by the hypocrites in this red state who praise the lord when the lights are on. But who is bashing whom? Who is attempting to use the Constitution as a weapon against a segment of society; to restrict a large group of citizens from sharing in constitutional liberties and all in the name of Jesus Christ? Who wants to "target" politicians if they don't agree that the constitution should be replaced by the bible? Who harrasses fellow americans outside of abortion clinics. Who plans to blow up abortion clinics and kill doctors all in the name of Jesus? Yes, the bashers are getting bashed here.

[AnnInLa]

12. Not Christian bashing....Hypocricy revealing....n/t

[hollywood926]

38. what is wrong with criticizing christians?

after this past election, i will no longer pretend that smart people believe that an invisible creature in the sky created the earth and that his son, who was born magically to a virgin and died 2000 years ago, will be back soon for a second visit!

sorry...can't do it.

[henrik larssonisking]

53. this is the point

basically to say something like this you are saying that every beleiever no matter what their political views are not smart, you cant have dialogue with people when you insult them over the core of who they are.

[fishwax]

58. But that attitude is hardly representative

of DU, and is quite different from the attitude in the original post, which merely pointed out a difference in what is preached (and what rw christians would like to legislate) and what is practiced.

You do see the difference, right? I ask not to be a smart aleck, but because I think there are plenty of thoughtful christians on DU as well as plenty of tolerant and thoughtful nonbelievers. And if you are really interested in discerning the difference between such points of view, I think it will greatly enhance your stay here. If, on the other hand, you assume that every negative or questioning comment or post about christianity/aspects of christianity/right-wing christianity is an assault on all christians, it won't take long to get frustrated.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

45. I view it as a truth telling thread. If evangelicals wish to practice what

they preach and legislate there won't be an issue, will there?

[vi5]

3. Whoa...I'm just shocked at this.....

You mean they don't actually practice what they preach? What a big surprise.

[ProfessorGAC]

25. Yeah! Who Knew?

This is quite a revelation.
The Professor

[StClone]

6. But they feel better because they think they are holier? NOT!

But the internal loathing caused by their weakness and sins so conflicts their sense of righteousness they externalize it with attacks on "sinners."

[DoYouEverWonder]

8. You shall know them by their deeds

these folks are not christians. Actually, they are exactly the opposite. They should be referred to has anti-christians, or anti-christs.

The anti-christ is not one person. It is the manifestation of evil and darkness inside of a person. Right now the manifestation of the anti-christ is running rampant, especially in the US.

[peacebird]

15. what I don't understand - Where is the outrage among true Christians?

Christ had some really nice, good, valuable advice which centered on loving ones neighbor and treating people, even the least among us, kindly and well. Taking care of one another.

How did his entire lifes MEANING get distorted into what calls itself "Christianity" today? The only "Christians" I hear about in the news are the fundies who are busy spreading hatred of those different from themselves, using their religion to demonize others.

I think, from what I've read of Christ's teachings, that the most apt sentiment in the bible for these people is "Christ wept" - but I doubt they realize that it's THEIR ACTIONS causing his tears.

Why don't the good honest true Christians, the ones who honor Christ's teachings with their actions rise up in outrage over the behavior of the fundies? The fundies "proclaim" Christ an awful lot, yet proceed to act opposite his every teaching.

Where are the real Christians? Why do they sit silently and allow their Christ to be so smeared and profaned?

[DoYouEverWonder]

18. Where have you been?

I see millions of them in these pictures:



Hyde Park - London, United Kingdom




New York City, New York, USA (500,000)




Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA (10,000)


By their deeds you shall know them. Not their words.

[peacebird]

20. actually i'm sure you had a few good wiccans in those photos

and pagans and athiest and jews and muslim, hindu, buddhist, and people of every variety.

By their actions you shall know good people, these photos show good people, people of conscience.

BUT as it is "Christianity" which the neocons and fundies are using to bash the rest of us into the dark ages then it is incumbent upon the true Christians to also make their VOICES heard.

Take back Christianity from those who would use it falsely, take it back from those who use it to rally the masses to evil - think Hitler. Thins Bush.

[DoYouEverWonder]

21. That's why I've started

putting these little cards on 'fundie' cars.



BTW: I did not mean to exclude all the other people who protested the war that day. However, christianity is the basis of western culture and all the pictures were from western cities, therefore it is safe to assume that most of the people in those crowds would be christian either by faith or by culture.

I consider myself a cultural christian. I was raised a christian, had 12 years of the training and it is part of who I am. To claim I wasn't a christian, would be like trying to claim I wasn't Italian. I'm a christian whether I like it or not. However, philosophically I'm probably more like a buddist, even though without years of study, I will never be able to claim that I understand buddist culture.

[peacebird]

22. where can I order those cards?

they are fantastic!

thanks for the further explanation also. I was raised Catholic but am no longer. When my local priest refused to baptise my infant because his father and I (legally married in the church BEFORE conception mind you) were in the process of getting a divorce - well, I rethought the faith.

Have never missed it either. When I married the second time I could have had my first marriage "annulled" by the church so that I could be married in the church again but wouldn't that have made the child a bastard?

Funniest thing of all - my son, who I took to every church he ever expressed an interest in (Catholic, Jewish, & Protestant of every stripe) decided at 12 to go to classes and become a Catholic. Such was his teenaged "rebellion" - lol!

[DoYouEverWonder]

23. Here's a link

to a sheet with four up so you can print and cut them out. Just delete the 's' at the beginning of the link and paste in your browser. Have fun.

shttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v411/DoYouEverWonder/Misc/Jesus-George-stepped-up.jpg

LOL about your son. Rebellion takes some funny twists.

[yardwork]

40. Your priest refused to baptize your infant

because you were getting divorced? That is so sad! What relevance would your marriage status have on the child's soul? It just doesn't make sense.

And the thought of that priest treating you so unkindly when he should have been helping you in your time of need - that's sad.

[peacebird]

61. the baby was 6 wks old and I had gone through the classes

but the priest said "You didn't keep your word to the holy Lord Jesus in the sacrament of marriage, how can I trust you to raise this child as a Catholic".

He also refused to allow an uncle who was a Jesuit priest in another parish to baptize the baby. As parish priest he had to give a dispensation to allow the baby to be baptized by another diocese.

I was so upset I even wrote the Bishop and the Pope. Never heard back from the church however.

[fishwax]

59. Those cards are fantastic

thanks for posting them as well as the link below :)

[msmcghee]

44. How come none of those signs say . . .

. . "Real Christians Are Against the War in Iraq"?

Anyone can attend an anti-war rally. The problem is that (some) Christians have co-opted the bullhorn and are supporting the war- and Bush - using Christianity as a political weapon.

The message shouldn't be "We are against the war" as in the photos.

Until we start to see more "Real Christians Are Against the War in Iraq" rallies - expect to see a lot of DU threads questioning Christianity's role.

Justifiably IMO

[AnnInLa]

52. Pax Christi at Jazz Funeral for Democracy in

New Orleans on Jan 20th...pic courtesy of Maggie

[msmcghee]

55. Waaay cool . . .

It needs to be a movement though, not just a sign.

:thumbsup:

[ultraist]

60. There is a large movement of faith based peace protestors

Faith-based groups speak out
From Vietnam and Panama to the Gulf War and Afghanistan, faith-based opposition to U.S. intervention in foreign wars has been the backbone of the peace movement.
Iraq 2002 is no different.

Over the past month, as the Bush administration ratcheted up its war rhetoric and planning, the religious left responded with petitions, protests, and pleas for peace: More than 13,000 people have signed a “peace pledge” whose sponsors include the American Friends Service Committee, Fellowship of Reconciliation, Lutheran Peace Fellowship, and Pax Christi USA. A separate “pledge of resistance” commits signatories to “join with others to engage in acts of nonviolent civil disobedience at U.S. federal facilities, congressional offices, military installations and other appropriate places.”

Gathered for a late August meeting of the World Council of Churches, 38 representatives of U.S., Canadian and British Christian churches urged “restraint” even “as the calls for military action to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq have grown louder.” Those issuing the statement included National Council of Churches General Secretary Bob Edgar, and leaders of the United Methodist Church USA, the Anglican Church of Canada, the Baptist Union of Great Britain, the Episcopal Church USA, the Disciples of Christ, the United Church of Christ and the Presbyterian Church (USA). In a separate statement, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America Presiding Bishop Mark S. Hanson said, “We must stand unequivocally for peace.”

Since Sept. 1, three Dominicans and a Catholic lay minister have been fasting for peace. Their daily vigils in Union Square Park have drawn support from the approximately 150 people who engage the fasters on any given day, said Dominican Fr. Brian Pierce. “No one has been belligerent, and a small number tell us we’re wasting our time, but 98 percent have been supportive,” said Pierce.
http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives/092002/092002d.htm

[arwalden]

36. "Where are the real Christians?" -- I Do Not Know.

Well... I know that some exist, because I'm friends with several here at DU who regularly speak out and join the fight. But unfortunately, they seem to be outnumbered by the so-called "liberal Christians" who just don't give a damn about the faith-based-bigotry of the zealot Christians.

Or, if they care, they're too afraid to speak out against the actions of their fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

Once and awhile, some around here will dismiss the actions of the faith-based-bigots by saying something like "Those people aren't true Christians" or "Fred Phelps isn't really a Christian." -- But that's about as far as they're willing to go.

The full extent of their fight against the faith-based bigotry is limited to about a half-dozen words. After that... NOTHING. Silence. (I suppose I should consider it fortunate that some of them even BOTHERED to say that much at all!)

Sometimes it seems that the only ones who are willing to speak out LOUDLY against the hypocrisy and faith-based-bigotry are the non-Christians, and non-religious, and atheists.

Naturally, when such scorn and criticism is delivered by NON-Christians... it's easily dismissed or falsely labeled as being "ANTI-CHRISTIAN" or "CHRISTIAN-BASHING" :eyes:

Even when most reasonable people can easily see that the complaints are directed to a SPECIFIC group of Christians, or to their actions and not their religion... many here appear to take great pleasure at ignoring facts and inventing insults.

Imagine what an impact it could have if instead of wasting their time searching for NON-EXISTENT insults... if these folks would join in the fight.

Imagine how much more powerful the complaints would be if these folks identified themselves as BEING CHRISTIANS who are outraged at CHRISTIAN bigotry.

If that happened, the Christian-right could no longer dismiss our legitimate complaints by accusing us of being a "bunch-of-Christ-haters" and "butt-fucking-devil-worshiping-hedonistic-pagans".

[Crankie Avalon]

13. I have no quarrel with genuinely spiritual people...

...among whom there are many Christians.

However, this one particular breed of "Christian," the "Born Again"-type, seems to be often comprised of fairly troubled people with past self-control issues (alcoholics and/or drug addicts in recovery, convicted former criminals, etc.) who seem to be substituting one compulsion for another. It seems like a shallow sort of ostentatious religiosity rather than a deep, truly internal and organic spiritualism.

Perhaps so shallow, in fact, that these people aren't secure enough in it to keep it a truly "personal relationship with the Lord" and thus pursue the validation of society at large, brandishing their "faith" in inappropriate public situations and demanding that even other people's lives be as underpinned by this "Born Again"-business as their own are.

Anyway, these people being so troubled in the first place might be the reason why they are more susceptible to the high divorce and racism rates the OP suggests. Their problems might be a little thornier than what just making a show out of their new "religion" will solve.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobd]

24. Christians Aren't Perfect - They Just Act That Way

n/t

[RushIsRot]

35. Christians aren't perfect -- They just expect OTHERS to act

that way.

[TWiley]

43. This is the fundamental PROBLEM with evangelical fundamentalists

They only want to jam their beliefs down others throats.

[txaslftist]

27. They aren't the Jesus crowd. Jesus said:

"Take heed that you do not your alms before men, to be seen of them; otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven."

"And when thou prayest, thou shall not be as the hypocrites are; for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men."

"Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break in and steal:"

"Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

Jesus hated hypocrites, and reserved his worst condemnations for them. Just like all of you good atheists, agnostics, moslems, hindus, wiccans and others hate hypocrites. I find I have more in common with people who call themselves atheists and agnostics than I do with many that call themselves christian.

If you see a so-called christian amassing a vast fortune and appearing in make-up and crocodile tears on television begging you for money, look in the scriptures, Christ talks about these people. "Inwardly they are ravening wolves." That's your Falwells and your Robertsons and your Jim and Tammies.

So yeah, I get it when a co-worker friend of mine says, "I believe in God, and I believe Jesus was his son, but I'm not a Christian."

The hypocrites among us make us feel ashamed to be Christian. Just like the Taliban make many muslims feel shame and the Nazis made many atheists ashamed. Right now it is the misnomered Christian Right that is supporting the biggest hypocrite on the planet, and it is downright embarrassing.

But blaming Christianity is like blaming Ghandi for India testing nuclear weapons. It's bullshit.

[phylny]

32. It's also like blaming law-abiding Muslims

for terror.

[GoldenOldie]

46. Calling oneself "christian," does not make one a christian

Ye shall know them by their deeds. I have been fortunate to know Christians who follow Jesus teachings. Their bible is well-read and worn....they do not use it attack others, but to reaffirm their own beliefs and to gain further meaning for themselves. They come from the Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Moravian, Church of God, Lutheran, Episcopal. Their prayers are for others and done with love and kindness. I have gained knowledge from each and every one of these Christians and cherish their friendships.

I have also known those who call themselves "christians," both family and acquaintances, who hold a bible which is worn only in those sections which the owner selects to prosytheltize. These good "christians," will not acknowledge nor accept "christians" outside of their individual church/building ...and their fear and hatred for others of color, ethnicity, culture, lack of wealth, etc., is highly disturbing to be around. They spread their venom and call it Christian and God's teaching. They in fact are no different than the Taliban, they just dress a little nicer.

[txaslftist]

48. I don't know... black robe and Khefi vs. polyester leisure suit...

I'm gonna have to give a fashion thumbs up to the Taliban.

[yardwork]

50. Some non-religious people live by very Christian standards, too

I know some people - including my husband - who live the spirit of the New Testament as I understand it (kindness, forgiveness, generosity, strength of spirit) - but don't consider themselves to be Christian.

They call themselves agnostic, atheist, secular humanist, pagan, etc.

[ArkDem]

42. I abhor hypocricy

[Lydia Leftcoast]

54. An Episcopal priest whose parish was in a town full of fundamentalist

churches was commenting on an interview with Marjoe Gortner, a man who was trained by his parents to be a "child evangelist" and who later broke with them. Gortner said that fundamentalists went to revival meetings because they weren't allowed to do anything that was fun, so revival meetings were their only emotional outlet.

This priest said that from what he had observed in his small town, the fundamentalists were indeed forbidden to do anything that was fun, but for that reason, the forbidden pleasures had an extra appeal. Besides, no one can be "good" all the time, so eventually, their pious facade would crack, and when it cracked, it would crack in a big way. Then they'd feel all guilty about it, so they'd go to the revival meeting, get "saved," and start the cycle of repression and breaking loose all over again.

[shawn703]

56. Just because you call yourself Christian doesn't mean your saved

The first step to being saved is to repent. Without repentance there isn't absolution. Jesus spoke of these "Christians" in Matthew 7:21-23.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[Moderator]

62. Locking...

The title of your thread is inflammatory to those of the Christian Faith. If you would like to repost your message with a non-inflammatory title, feel free.