Vatican Hails Woman Who Refused Abortion

[emad]

Associated Press


VATICAN CITY - The Vatican on Tuesday praised an Italian woman who died after refusing cancer treatment that would have required her to have an abortion. Rita Fedrizzi died this week, three months after giving birth to a baby boy.

Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano compared Fedrizzi's decision to that of an Italian pediatrician Gianna Beretta Molla, who died in 1962 after refusing to end her pregnancy despite warnings that it could kill her. Beretta Molla was made a saint by John Paul II in 2003 and has become a symbol for opponents of abortion. The Roman Catholic Church considers abortion a grave sin.

Fedrizzi, 41, who refused the abortion and cancer treatment, found out she had cancer about the same time she learned she was pregnant, the Vatican paper said.

"She was aware that if she gave birth she wouldn't have had any hope of surviving," the Vatican newspaper wrote. "Despite that she went through with her choice, the choice of welcoming new life even at the cost of her own death."
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/consumer_news/10731777.htm?1c

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

1. Pro-choice means making a choice.

This was the women's choice, and it is a choice that took guts. I may have chosen the same fate or not... that's the beauty of the PRO CHOICE position. In a NO CHOICE world, a woman who would choose to abort rather than die would instead die.

[rocktivity]

2. Right--this is a PRO-CHOICE victory

The abortion was not forced upon on her. She may have felt that she had no choice if she was a Catholic, but that's not the same thing.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Modem Butterfly]

16. Has the church changed its opposition to assisted suicide

And the withholding or refusal of medical treatment?

[ClassicDem]

22. Declining medical assistance is not suicide.

[Modem Butterfly]

38. But isn't it?

We're talking about a treatment leading to almost certain death.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

47. the only thing that leads to certain death is life

yes, there is a difference between willfully and actively taking your life and having that life taken from you by a heinous disease. Your suggestion that declining medical care is suicide is equivalent to saying if that medical care doesn't work it is murder.

tP

[Modem Butterfly]

54. I thought the Catholic church was opposed to assisted suicide...

...and other methods of speeding death. Isn't that why they got involved in Oregon's Right-to-Die battles?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

100. i don't know about Oregon's battles

but I do know that refusing medical treatment is not the same as having someone pump you full of chemicals that ends your life. Choice is a big issue here...choice to end an unwanted pregnancy...choice to allow a wanted pregnancy to continue even at risk of your own life...choice to decide how your medical decisions are handled.

theProdigal

[SOteric]

105. The Catholic church has been opposed to suicide in all forms

for centuries and has not changed it's standing on the matter. It is also apposed to using birth control and opposed to abortion. The overlying notion is that only God can or should inspire a life and choose to terminate a life. The moment of conception sparks an immortal soul, it's path should be His to determine.

Roman Catholics involve themselves in every aspect of the Right to Life battle. Including euthanasia and death penalty issues as well as conception and abortion matters.

[dansolo]

111. The death was naturally occurring

It wasn't assisted. She was ill, and she died from her illness. Right-to-die is a whole different matter.

[noamnety]

3. If there was any doubt

about how much they value the mother's life, this should answer it.

[beam me up scottie]

4. I thought it took a lot longer to make someone a saint.

I'm curious, how long after a person dies can they be sainted?

[jmowreader]

6. This is the Catholic Hall of Fame, not the Baseball Hall of Fame

Unlike our earthly halls of fame, the Canon--the list of saints--has no minimum or maximum time frames. I have heard of people who died hundreds of years ago being promoted to Saint by Pope John Paul II.

Here's what you gotta do to become a Saint, a person who's entitled to intercede on behalf of the living. (There are regular saints and patron saints. A patron saint is a "big name" saint who intercedes on behalf of whole classes of people. You'll find them at http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/patron00.htm and there are a BUNCH of these--Saint Denis is one of the patron saints of mad dogs. I didn't make that up.)

Your first step is to live a life of heroic virtue. You can apparently come into heroic virtue late in life, but you can't be an asshole all your life and expect to be canonized.

Next, die. No living person can be a saint.

After the Church recognizes you as having lived a life of heroic virtue, you become Venerated.

If the Church can discover that you performed a miracle or caused one to be performed, you are Blessed--the title you receive after your beatification. At this point a "cult" forms around you; people in your local church will sanctify your name. (A miracle is anything they say it is--you don't have to part the Red Sea or turn water into wine or anything like that.)

Once they can prove you performed a second miracle, you can be canonized. Your name will be entered into the Canon and you will be a Saint. The Pope can waive both of your miracles, and probably waived one and declared her choice one for the purposes of canonization of the woman we're discussing.

[beam me up scottie]

42. Then why didn't they make Mother Theresa one?

nt

[fishwax]

58. The one they made a saint died in 1962

So she didn't become a saint until 40 years after she died. They were drawing comparisons between this more recent case and the older case which lead to sainthood.

[China_cat]

73. It's in the pipes.

She has been beatified.

But this pope is mostly known as the 'saints pope'. Has created more new saints than the last 10 popes combined.

[JVS]

63. I heard that JPII has abolished the miracle requirement

However it may take some time for your "cause" as they call it to fully make the case for your sainthood

[Dookus]

103. the woman in this article wasn't canonized.

[RPM]

5. Praise the Uterus, Stone the Woman

i hate the pope and his axis of evil :-)

[prayin4rain]

7. Poor orphaned children. n/t

[kiraboo]

8. I just don't understand why

the baby's life is considered more valuable, more sacred, than the mother's. What did the mother do that made her less worthy of life?

[theHandpuppet]

9. The same thing that makes priests and nuns more sacred...

... than the rest of us sinners around here -- obviously, to have had a baby the mother had SEX, which tainted her forever. The only Mother worth sainthood is that of the VIRGIN Mary, who neatly avoided the issue. /sarcasm off

[K-W]

27. Have some historical and cultural perspective.

Through most of human history, reproduction wasnt a luxery, it was a neccessity of the survival of the species.

I know that most parents I know put thier children's lives ahead of thier own in almost every way. What about this attitude do you not understand?

[alarimer]

52. me neither

Her choice I guess. Notice that people who have chosen the other way get no mention at all. I guess I must be a selfish asshole because I would want to live. So for me it would be clear cut the other way.

[Streetdoc270]

93. It was the decision of the parent

to sacrifice herself for her child, that in no way means that she is less worthy of life. Any parent would/should gladly give their life for their child's thats what makes us loving parents.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

10. why are people suggesting the baby is more important

to the Vatican than the mother? Is it at all possible that this mother sacrificed her life for the life of her child simply as a matter of love and not for fear of the church? I suppose no one here has ever heard of a parent dying in the process of trying to save their child...hell, even of people not related dying to save the life of another. Heaven forbid that self sacrifice (yes, even to the point of death) should be looked on with such disdain in the rest of the world as I see in this thread.

[Love Bug]

15. People are suggesting that because that has always been the

Catholic position regarding the baby's life outweighing the mother's. Yes, the mother took the risk and ultimately gave her life for her baby. That was her choice. Who knows if fear of the Church factored in her decision or not. But the Vatican is now using this situation to publicize their long-held belief that any mother should die rather than ever consider an abortion should her pregnancy be likely to be fatal.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

18. i can see that...

but the rampant defeatism and negativism and pessism and despair here is getting quite painful...so few people take a positive outlook on anything...

theProdigal

[kiraboo]

65. Just for the record, I fully understand a mother's choice

when she decides to die so that the baby may live. My comment goes to the Church, not the Mom. I assumed that was understood. My mistake.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

19. She made her choice

She chose to bring life into this world. I have always been pro-Choice and I admire someone who was willing to die for her convictions.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

30. her choice is not the issue. the comment of the vatican however is.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

40. I don't see anything wrong with their comment

She celebrated the life of her child and gave her life for it, as most mothers would do for their children. The Vatican naturally celebrated this.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

41. well i see a problem when the vatican implies the correct thing to do

in this instance is martyr yourself for a fetus.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

48. No, she died for a child

One a fetus comes to term, that's what you get.

This is the flip side of the Choice issue. If you are for women having Choice, I don't see how you can be bothered by this.

[PA Democrat]

53. And left two other children motherless as well

That muddles the issue a bit in my eyes.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

86. She might have done that anyhow

There are few guarantees in life.

[PA Democrat]

90. No guarantees, but there are probabilities

FACT: Delaying treatment by almost almost 9 months will greatly reduce the chance of survival.

FACT: Large percentage of breast cancer in younger women are hormone fed cancers, which will advance much more quickly with the additional hormones produced by pregnancy.

Let's not be flippant about "guarantees". I've seen first-hand the horrible impact on kids who lose their mothers to cancer.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

101. I can't put myself in her shoes

And we'll never know the whole story about her choice, how bad her case was, etc. She made her choice based on the information she had and her beliefs. I support her decision as I would have had she decided to have an abortion.

[PA Democrat]

107. According to her church she had no choice

Abortion even to save the mother's life was strictly forbidden in 1962. I am sickened by a church that told her that she would burn in hell if she chose to try to save her own life so that she might be a mother to her 2 existing children.

This is not about "supporting her decision". She was given no decision if she wanted to remain a practicing Catholic, and according to the church, avoid the eternal fires of hell. I am not condemning her choice, I am condemning the Vatican for terrorizing women into accepting a certain death.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

108. Like all Catholics obey that rule

You must be kidding. The church had no serious power over her choice whatsoever.

Had she made this decision, they would have never known. And of course, you forget that she could confess her sins and be absolved.

[PA Democrat]

109. The Catholic church had significantly more influence over people

40 years ago than today.

By your logic, then I suppose it's OK for church leaders to tell gays they are going to hell. Because we all know that none of them listen to those folks.

Gee, no gay people have remained in the closet for fear of damnation, or tried to force themselves to be heterosexual because of the edicts of the church. Yeah THAT'S never happened. :eyes:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

57. umm the fetus was still a fetus when she found out.

to glorify her is stupid.

[henrik larssonisking]

82. difference

like this women i dont see a fetus, i see it as a child. Its a very important difference in the descision making process.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

84. while you dont see a fetus...a fetus is a medical term,

till the 'child' is in a woman its a fetus.

[AliciaKeyedUp]

87. I have never met a woman who wanted a child

Who said she was pregnant with a "fetus."

A mother who wants to give birth is pregnant with her child.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

89. again i am not against her decision...its hers

i dont think it should be glorified either

[gollygee]

94. I wanted my daughter and when I was pregnant

I was well aware that she was, at that stage, a fetus.

Someone I know nicknamed her fetus "Cletus the Fetus"

[AliciaKeyedUp]

102. That makes one

Not a significant shift.

[gollygee]

106. Most of the women I know are the same

If you are religious, maybe most of the women you've known have been as well. I don't think "women you know" is any more a scientific sampling than "women I know". Neither of us can say what women as a whole feel about their pregnancies, or even what most women feel.

[AngryOldDem]

66. Ever hear of the principle of double effect?

It often applies in situations where a condition threatens the life of a pregnant woman. The Church opposes direct abortions, but recognizes that there may be times when treatments or conditions may cause fetal demise.

I think the true Catholic position is that the woman who faces this tragic situation get the best medical advice that she can, as well as family support and support from the Church as she weighs what to do.

But ulitmately, this case came down to this woman making a choice, which I thought was always the crux of the matter to pro-choice advocates.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

17. So you don't think burning in hell or the possibility of it factored at

all in that decision?

I believe it did and I believe that that is the ULTIMATE betrayal...for a religious org to use GUILT to stop a woman from getting REASONABLE care to save her life.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

20. i'm sorry NSMA, it could have been otherwise

i get the anger at the catholic church; i do. But people here just refuse any possibility that she did this with a motive of love for her child and not fear of the church...and to be honest, I refuse to believe that there is no possibility that love was the motivation...

theProdigal :hi:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

25. I am certain love played a role

Love and religion are both powerful drugs...( I mean it...google dopamine) both can lead a person to make irrational decisions.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

26. i agree on the drug part

but i don't consider the decision irrational. My bet would be that there were many hours of thought/discussion on this before the decision was made. If i were faced with a decision where my life could be exchanged for the life of my child...I can guess which way I would go...and it has nothing to do with being irrational.

How are things...we haven't had a chance to discuss much in this forum as of late. My opinions...my leanings...have definitely been affected by my time here...

theProdigal

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

34. So have mine

and yeah the place has changed...not for the better, IMHO...but I still post and check it out :-)

[ProdigalJunkMail]

37. in any case...

it is good to see you still hanging around from time to time...hope the weather has cleared up for y'all out there (southern accent thrown in for free enterainment value).

theProdigal

[ChicanoPwr]

32. Hate to break it to you.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/wire/sns-ap-vatican-abortion,0,7298060.story?coll=sns-ap-world-headlines

"Rita's choice, which I always shared, was a choice of faith," her husband, Enrico Ferrari, told the Italian news agency ANSA.

"Whenever someone recommended abortion as the only way to escape (death)," she would say, "It's as if they're asking me to kill one of my other two children to save my skin." She welcomed Federico as a gift, the husband was quoted as saying.

Fedrizzi was buried in Pianello del Lario, near Como, on Tuesday.

RAI state TV said the woman was very active with a Catholic group devoted to Mary, the mother of Jesus.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

36. you still haven't broken anything to me...

matter of faith or no...love is still the motivating factor here. This woman does not sound afraid nor battered about by her faith. It is a part of her life...and influenced her decision, to be sure...but people are criticizing the church for her decision...and I hate to break it to you, but people break church laws ALL THE DAMNED TIME (and many of these transgressions would surely be considered mortal sins). The church cannot even stop people from taking the Lord's name in vain and yet you believe that this woman made her decision solely from a fear-based motive? You know nothing of the situation other than what you read here and you judge her motive as fear...and therefor negative...and that is just par for the course for many people on this board...go negative first...and reject any calling for a look into what could be a positive.

theProdigal

OnEdit : grammar/spelling/stupidity (which still may be present :-) )

[ChicanoPwr]

74. Who said anything about fear-based

Her and her husband decisions was based on faith, therefore, faith-based. I did not judge motive based on fear, I do believe that her faith did play a big factor, which contributed to her love.

People are criticizing the Church because the Church is doing nothing more but glorifying her decision because the Church is assuming she made her decision based on faith. Therefore, making her as an example for other Catholics to follow.

The Catholic Church makes it very clear to the congregation it is against abortion. It is the Church who use a fear-based argument when it condemns a person and their entire family for going through an abortion. And it is the Church who label them as "killers of children." So if you could point out to us where the positive I am all ears.

Straight from the Vatican to everybody who belongs in the Catholic religion.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19870222_respect-for-human-life_en.html

Respect For Human Life

WHAT RESPECT IS DUE TO THE HUMAN EMBRYO, TAKING INTO ACCOUNT HIS NATURE AND IDENTITY?
At the Second Vatican Council, the Church for her part presented once again to modern man her constant and certain doctrine according to which: "Life once conceived, must be protected with the utmost care; abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes". (23) More recently, the Charter of the Rights of the Family, published by the Holy See, confirmed that "Human life must be absolutely respected and protected from the moment of conception".

Declaration of Abortion
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19741118_declaration-abortion_en.html

The tradition of the Church has always held that human life must be protected and favored from the beginning, just as at the various stages of its development. Opposing the morals of the Greco-Roman world,... In the Didache it is clearly said: "You shall not kill by abortion the fruit of the womb and you shall not murder the infant already born." Athenagoras emphasizes that Christians consider as murderers those women who take medicines to procure an abortion; he condemns the killers of children, including those still living in their mother's womb, "where they are already the object of the care of divine Providence." Tertullian did not always perhaps use the same language; he nevertheless clearly affirms the essential principle: "To prevent birth is anticipated murder; it makes little difference whether one destroys a life already born or does away with it in its nascent stage. The one who will be a man is already one."

Any discrimination based on the various stages of life is no more justified than any other discrimination. The right to life remains complete in an old person, even one greatly weakened; it is not lost by one who is incurably sick. The right to life is no less to be respected in the small infant just born than in the mature person. In reality, respect for human life is called for from the time that the process of generation begins. From the time that the ovum is fertilized, a life is begun which is neither that of the father nor of the mother, it is rather the life of a new human being with his own growth. It would never be made human if it were not human already.

We know what seriousness the problem of birth control can assume for some families and for some countries. That is why the last Council and subsequently the encyclical "Humanae vitae" of July 25, 1968, spoke of "responsible parenthood." What we wish to say again with emphasis, as was pointed out in the conciliar constitution "Gaudium et spes," in the encyclical "Populorum progressio" and in other papal documents, is that never, under any pretext, may abortion be resorted to, either by a family or by the political authority, as a legitimate means of regulating births. The damage to moral values is always a greater evil for the common good than any disadvantage in the economic or demographic order.

Following one's conscience in obedience to the law of God is not always the easy way. One must not fail to recognize the weight of the sacrifices and the burdens which it can impose. Heroism is sometimes called for in order to remain faithful to the requirements of the divine law. Therefore, we must emphasize that the path of true progress of the human person passes through this constant fidelity to a conscience maintained in uprightness and truth; and we must exhort all those who are able to do so to lighten the burdens still crushing so many men and women, families and children, who are placed in situations to which, in human terms, there is no solution. A Christian's outlook cannot be limited to the horizon of life in this world. He knows that during the present life another one is being prepared, one of such importance that it is in its light that judgments must be made. From this viewpoint there is no absolute misfortune here below, not even the terrible sorrow of bringing up a handicapped child. This is the contradiction proclaimed by the Lord: "Happy those who mourn: they shall be comforted" (Mt. 5:5). To measure happiness by the absence of sorrow and misery in this world is to turn one's back on the Gospel.

Christ's Church has the fundamental solicitude of protecting and favoring life. She certainly thinks before all else of the life which Christ came to bring: "I have come so that they may have life and have it to the full" (Jn. 10:10). But life at all its levels comes from God, and bodily life is for man the indispensable beginning. In this life on earth sin has introduced, multiplied and made harder to bear suffering and death. But in taking their burden upon Himself, Jesus Christ has transformed them: for whoever believes in Him, suffering and death itself become instruments of resurrection. Hence Saint Paul can say: "I think that what we suffer in this life can never be compared to the glory, as yet unrevealed, which is waiting for us" (Rom. 8:18). And, if we make this comparison we shall add with him: "Yes, the troubles which are soon over, though they weigh little, train us for the carrying of a weight of eternal glory which is out of all proportion to them" (2 Cor. 4:17).

"that is just par for the course for many people on this board...go negative first...and reject any calling for a look into what could be a positive."

As a person who was raised Catholic and constantly being bombard with this message. I have my right to be negative when I see the Pope making a martyr out of this woman for everybody to follow. However, that does not make I do not believe she factored in love in her decision because she obviously did.

[henrik larssonisking]

43. i agree

my mother when she was pregnant with me was told by all her doctors that she had to have an abortion or she would die, she simply refused and found a doctor who respected her religious beliefs. She saw my life as valuable, and saw me as her child. This is one of the reasons that i am pro life.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

69. yes your mom had a choice....and women should have a choice

in these matters....its why you should be pro choice

[arcane1]

76. exactly!

:toast:

[ComerPerro]

11. I hope she confessed all her sins before she died

because, otherwise, the Catholic Church would still consider her to be burning in hell.

[henrik larssonisking]

45. no actually

she would be in purgatory.

[ComerPerro]

62. Ahh, yes.

"we can get her into heaven, but it won't be cheap."

$$$$$$$$$

[henrik larssonisking]

75. she will be in heaven

according to what my church teaches, she gave her life to save her child, thus she would be forgiven all previous sins, hence no need for purgatory.

[JVS]

77. Saints don't do any time in hell or purgatory

So maybe if she gets lucky they'll saint her

[Bridget Burke]

12. She is not the only woman to have made this choice.

Pregnancy sometimes triggers breast cancer; it probably would have occurred eventually, but the hormonal changes bring it on. Most cancer treatments are not recommended during pregnancy & many of these women refuse them. Some live, anyway, but early treatment is generally the best policy.

Others may choose to end the pregnancy. It depends on their circumstances.

I could imagine a future state that decreed all such pregnancies should be terminated--for the good of society. The right to choose is precious.

[fishwax]

60. Good point and well said (n/t)

[Modem Butterfly]

13. I thought the church opposed suicide?

:shrug:

I'm confused.

[henrik larssonisking]

46. its not suicide

its the same reasoning that covers a father or mother jumping into a river to save their child and losing their life. happy to help mate.

[Modem Butterfly]

55. Wait a minute- killing yourself isn't suicide?

its the same reasoning that covers a father or mother jumping into a river to save their child and losing their life.

So sometimes, killing yourself is justified?

[henrik larssonisking]

68. uh

now parseing words is fun, but if you dont see the difference btween laying down your life to save another is a long way from suicide, then i aint gonna be albe to convince you.

[Modem Butterfly]

79. Suicide = taking of ones own life

The question I'm asking is: why does the Catholic church make a hero out of this woman for essentially taking her own life when they are so opposed to terminally ill people taking theirs?

[henrik larssonisking]

83. ok

she didnt take her own life, she died to save the life of her baby, the church will not see her as having killed herself.

[Modem Butterfly]

88. The right to die meets the right to life

So the answer for any terminal patient who wants to exercise their right to die is to get pregnant. Then they're in the clear, Catholicism-wise. Got it.

[goddess40]

14. Is the Vatican going to pay child support too?

or is it the typical anti-choice, have the kid and then you and your child are on your own.

I'm not talking about the pro-lifers that post here as I know most of them (if not all) are real pro-lifer's: anti-war, anti-death penalty, pro-affordable health care, subsidies for those that need it and equal education...

[ChicanoPwr]

21. Their is A Crusader Rabbit at the Vatican

Straight from The U.S. Embassy to the Holy See and the focus on issues.
http://vatican.usembassy.it/Policy/Focus/focus.asp

Promoting Global Understanding of American Values

U.S. national security and foreign policy are founded on the defense of core values of liberty and justice. The Holy See not only shares our commitment to these values -- to which it adds truth and love as the foundations of true peace -- but also places them at the center of its global policy in a way that no other bilateral partner can. By joining our voices together on the many issues where we share common goals – promoting human rights and religious freedom, condemning terrorism and human trafficking, preventing human cloning, mediating conflicts, and meeting humanitarian and developmental challenges – we can vividly and effectively make our case to a worldwide media audience that U.S. values are aimed at the promotion of human dignity. Secretary Powell was recently asked what needed to be done to overcome anti-American perceptions. His nswer was that we needed to do more to get out and convey to the world the true nature of our values and belief, which is a key focus of this Embassy's media outreach.

Promoting Life

The Embassy maintains an active dialogue with the Holy See on human life issues, particularly on the consequences of genetic engineering on humans and use of embryonic stem cells and cloning. We continue to coordinate our efforts in the United Nations toward achieving an international convention banning human cloning, and we are working with the Holy See to achieve a worldwide reduction in abortions.

Not surprising to see the Pope give praise to the died woman for not choosing an abortion. Maybe the Pope will make her Patron Saint for the Anti-Choice movement. :evilgrin:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

23. womens lives have no value...babies however are priceless.

the church could not be more homophobic or sexist if they tried

[AliciaKeyedUp]

28. Her life had value

She brought new life into the world -- her choice.

How dare any of us judge her decision.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

29. i am not. i am judging the comment made by the church after her decision.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

24. This is why I disown religion. I was raised a Catholic but...

have reservations about them. Doesn't the Church have rules AGAINST suicide??? :wtf:

[noonwitch]

31. I wonder if they'll make her a saint, like the virgin martyrs

The women like St. Cecilia, who chose death over losing their virgininty.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

35. great message to send to young girls

you are most worthy when dying to save your virginity or dying to save your unborn fetus.

[dflprincess]

110. I was going to make that comment

My grandmother gave me a copy of the "Lives of the Saints" when I was confirmed. It always bugged me how many female saints had "virgin" under their names and not one male saint did. The other thing was they usually died defending their hymens from a non-believer. I don't recall any saint getting credit for fighting off an attack from a "true believer".

[Cleita]

33. Yeah, when I was in Catholic school, they regularly pointed

out the families with six or more kids as being good Catholics and not using birth control. Never mind that these families often had to rely on the kindness of the smaller families to feed and clothe all their kids.

[yardwork]

39. I know several women who did this! It's not that unusual

I personally knew two women who discovered they had breast cancer after they became pregnant. They chose to have the babies, thus delaying treatment for the cancer. Both died several years later, when their children were small.

The right wing would like the public to believe that all Democrats and pro-choice people are heartless selfish baby-killers. Nothing is further from the truth.

I'll bet a lot of wealthy Republicans have had abortions.

Edit: I need to start previewing my messages. Can't type.

[WMliberal]

44. women such as Hitler's mother?

:shrug:

[truebrit71]

49. How stupid.....

:eyes:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

50. stupid?

what to give your life for something you love? hmmmm...

[gollygee]

51. What is stupid

is considering abortion to be a "grave sin" even if it's the only way a woman will live.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

56. its not just stupid. its sexist, cruel and irresponsible

[AngryOldDem]

61. There are some women

...who don't frame the discussion in that manner. Again, this woman made the choice on her own.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

67. the womans choice is valid for her...i am against glorifying this

as the good and right way to do things...its the vatican statement i find horrifying not the individuals right to choose.

[ChicanoPwr]

78. Thank you

I agree with you 100%.

The Church is doing nothing more but glorifying her decision because the Church is assuming she made her decision based on faith, not fear like what some people on this thread like to believe. And yes, the Church is making her as an example for other Catholics to follow.

[ChicanoPwr]

80. If you want to see something more horrifying ...

take a look over here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3007928&mesg_id=3008387&page=

Since B* has the same agenda as the Pope, I think that is why it made the news.

[gollygee]

91. Exactly

I agree 100%. This should be her choice and I'm glad that choice is available to her. But for the vatican to set this up as the only way for her not to commit a "grave sin" is abhorrent.

[truebrit71]

64. Yes it is REALLY stupid....

Give your life so that a newborn will never know you or that a fetus may not make it to full-term....yeah brilliant idea....:eyes:

Would it not be better to get the treatment, whatever happens happens and then get try and get pregnant again...?

[henrik larssonisking]

70. her beliefs

she obviously had different beliefs from you, to her this was her child, she made the choice to save her child over herself.

[Bridget Burke]

71. No, treatment followed by "whatever happens happens" is wrong.

The result could be a severely deformed baby.

The choice is between minimal treatment that won't harm the pregnancy and terminating the pregnancy. And that choice is for the woman to make, with the best medical information she can get.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

99. apparently not to her...

she made the choice...but people here just don't accept it. It appears that choice is only valid when it is choosing abortion...

theProdigal

[AngryOldDem]

59. But...isn't this a CHOICE?

Isn't this what you are all so hot and heavy to promote as it concerns abortion? The woman made HER choice to give up HER life for that of her baby's.

Or does "choice" have another connotation here, which is only valid if it concerns the life of the unborn (or fetus, or tumor, or tissue, or glob of cells...however the unborn are being defined today)?

This woman gave up her life for that of another...stupid? I hardly think so.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

72. yes it is her choice....and she should not be criticized or glorified for

making that choice. esp not by a powerful force such as the vatican/

[ProgressiveConn]

85. Heroic!

I doubt most anti-choice neo-cons would not be willing to do the same, or ask their wifes and daughters to do the same.

I'm pro-choice but this woman did a heroic thing.

[More Than A Feeling]

81. I honor her decision

She has shown amazing courage.

[gollygee]

92. Are women who make the other choice not courageous?

It is also courageous to recognize that the rest of your family (ie other children) needs you and choose to remain for their sake.

[henrik larssonisking]

95. choice

you have three kids and you are given the choice to pick one of them to die or yourself, you are gonna choose yourself, thats what this lady did.

[gollygee]

96. It isn't the same for a lot of people before the baby is born

Her religion has taught her to personify fetuses, and I understand that is how she sees things. But a mother who doesn't personify fetuses is also making a corageous choice when she chooses to remain with her family instead of allowing herself to die and leave them alone.

[ChicanoPwr]

97. You are correct, it isn't the same

She was a 41 yr old woman who was very active in the Catholic Church. It is safe to assume she grew up as a Catholic, therefore, she probably kept hear the same message over and over through out her child and adult life. And the same can be said about her husband. Statments like these from the Pope "personify the fetuses" and who also happens to live within the same country (Italy) as Rita, makes it hard for any family:
---------------------------------------------
"You shall not kill by abortion the fruit of the womb and you shall not murder the infant already born."

"Christians consider as murderers those women who take medicines to procure an abortion; he condemns the killers of children, including those still living in their mother's womb, "where they are already the object of the care of divine Providence."

"To prevent birth is anticipated murder; it makes little difference whether one destroys a life already born or does away with it in its nascent stage. The one who will be a man is already one."

What we wish to say again with emphasis, as was pointed out in the conciliar constitution "Gaudium et spes," ... and in other papal documents, is that never, under any pretext, may abortion be resorted to, either by a family ... as a legitimate means of regulating births. The damage to moral values is always a greater evil for the common good than any disadvantage in the economic or demographic order.

"Happy those who mourn: they shall be comforted" (Mt. 5:5). To measure happiness by the absence of sorrow and misery in this world is to turn one's back on the Gospel.

Hence Saint Paul can say: "I think that what we suffer in this life can never be compared to the glory, as yet unrevealed, which is waiting for us" (Rom. 8:18). And, if we make this comparison we shall add with him: "Yes, the troubles which are soon over, though they weigh little, train us for the carrying of a weight of eternal glory which is out of all proportion to them" (2 Cor. 4:17).
----------------------------------------------

You are also correct "a mother who doesn't personify fetuses is also making a corageous choice when she chooses to remain with her family instead of allowing herself to die and leave them alone."

Sometimes we forget about the father, but this man is now a widower who has to take care of three children. Who is going to help him?

[Solon]

104. The point is she had a choice...

she made the right one, for herself, no one else. If the situation was slightly different, and she had to die because of some pro-life law, that wouldn't have been heroic or noble, simply tragic. Taking decisions like this out of the hands of the people who are affected by them is neither noble nor honorable, but instead demeans them to the point of not being worthy of making the choice at all. Such laws make women less than human.

[More Than A Feeling]

98. It takes courage to die, but it also takes courage to live

yours is an example of the second option, and equally honorable. I was merely commenting on the path that this particular woman chose, no other.

[Raised_In_The_Wild]

112. piss on the poop! n/t